Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gondoras 03-29-06, 09:14 PM	Once again, Gondoras is all over the place. After seeing where my newly rolled character was going, he decided I'd be too far behind in the campaign.....So, getting my character up to the 3rd level would just be too hard. lol, fine, so now I have to figure out a legal way to fix my PC..... Duergar Str 16 Dex 17 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 6 He's a Fighter 2/Ranger 1 currently (initially thought Fighter was his favored class and was looking at TWF) and is right next to leveling. If I take another Fighter Level, I'll start taking XP penalties. So, the only way I can figure on fixing him is to start pumping levels into Rogue. Problem is that I've basically wasted 4 feats already (Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Power Attack.) Great 5 total feats left and nothing on Int to get the good ones. To take a different look at this character, I could SA with a Great Sword which would be pretty nice. Skills will most likely be used to get around better (Use Rope, max out some of the fighter skills, etc,) but I don't think that'll be enough to turn him around. Currently, I'm looking for a PrC for this type that has Improved Invisibility. Duergars have Inv 1/day, but it stops as soon as an attack is made. Sure, being able to get a huge sneak attack before the opponent knows what hits him would be a major strong point (-2 on Str, too), but there's gotta be something out there that can be done to improve this character. Everyone has a soft heart for the broken character, so if anyone can think of anything that'd be an alternative to Fighter10/Ranger10, I'd be extremely grateful. Oh, not to put any pressure on you guys, but we're gaming tomorrow!!!!!
Sikyanakotik 03-29-06, 09:53 PM	Uh, I'm pretty sure duergar still have favoured class fighter, just like other dwarves. If that's the case, you can add more fighter levels without problem.
Otto the Bugbear 03-29-06, 10:26 PM	Other than the fact that putting the same post in two forums is against the CoC (spamming), your best bet for urgent replies of this nature is the Character Optimization board. It gets very high traffic, and you'll get a bounty of ideas thrown your way. Then it's only a matter of choosing what parts of those ideas best fit your concept. (If you do post there, I'd suggest editing your other posts to be empty (and change the title) to keep you out of the WizO hot water. Friendly advice.) Oh, and check out the Nightsong Enforcer in Complete Adventurer. You've got the feat covered already, now it's just a matter of the skill points, which you should be able to easily cover with 4 levels of rogue. This would only lessen your BAB by 1 for those 4 levels. Cheers Otto :)
Gondoras 03-29-06, 10:54 PM	Oh shoot, I didn't realize the other one posted. Definitely wouldn't have done it on purpose. Sorry, I'll get it fixed ASAP I've got that book at home so I'll definitely go through it to get more info. I definitely have some confusion, now. I am starting to see Duergar Fighters and the opinions that being Dwarves, their FC has to be fighter. With invisibility, enlarge self, and other racial abilities, they scream Rogue or Spell caster, though. Still have the Constitution bonus, though, so probably is a Fighter. If that is the case, then all is good. First time I've played one and even though I've deliberately researched this character, I'm still coming up with multiple options....probably another reason why it was ECL +2 initially. Well, I guess I pretty much have the info I need...if he's not a fighter, just pretend his a fighter, or I could go ahead and take the path of the Rogue and possibly find my dreamed dual wielding Dwarven Assassin!!! Thanks for everything. I'll keep taking info as it comes just to be certain on everything. (I actually have four different charts written up on possible ways to fix, but knew everyone here could come up with anything better than me :D)
ashcat_lt 03-29-06, 11:47 PM	Monster Manual says Fighter. Races of Faerun also says Fighter (or Psychic Warrior if your DM decides). Don't see it in Races of Stone. I'm not going to look through every book I own. Edit: If you are going with the LA+2, (or I guess if you are playing in FR) then you absolutely must go with the version of the grey dwarf that exists in the FRCS. The differences between this version and the MM version are fairly subtle, but I would insist on every possible advantage I could get for a whole +1 LA. On the other hand, I might prefer the MM version because you're not giving up much, but you gain so much.
Gondoras 03-30-06, 02:11 AM	Definitely worth looking into. We have it as a +1, but the DM seems uncertain about everything a Duergar gets as well, so the MM sounds like a great guide :D. Good news on the Fighter. I actually found a potential way to go in either case....Fighter2/Ranger1/Rogue2/Assassin either 9 or 10 That gets me to level 14 or 15 depending how important an extra chance to use Improved Invisibility appears. If Duergar was more Rogue, I could've leveled to a 9d6 SA, but with 14 levels pretty much locked in, I've bought a lot of time. Problem with this route is I'd be dumping points into INT instead of STR, but with the party as large as it is, there'll be plenty of backup if I dive into combat. Guess I could still raise Rogue to 3 giving 7d6 total to SA, but I'm going to wait until I look at CW to view the Nightsong Enforcer Question, though, since I'm basically a fighter and proficient in Martial Weapons, can I use a Great Sword on a Sneak Attack? Added Question, do magic weapons get their effects added on SA? If both are yes, this previously quasi-broken character could actually be the best character I've played since 2.0
Gondoras 03-30-06, 02:50 AM	OMG, just got off the phone with a friend about Nightsong....scratch that talk about the Assassin. lol. Sure, I'll dip into it to gain that Death attack and 1d6 SA, new build.... Fighter 2/Ranger 1/ Rogue 3/ Assassin 1/ Nightsong 10. That leaves 3 more levels to get up to 9d6 SA legally. Extra Levels would probably go to Assassin. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in the Poison Resistance, since I'm a Duergar, but the 4 spells you get to choose for each level would be extremely beneficial. I may try to talk the DM to changing Poison Save to a different type of hinderance......maybe trade in all of them for the ability to be completely rested after 4 hours.....or perhaps a bit of favoritism to get some nice items:D Great PrC suggestion, Otto!!! Whoever created this is my official hero. Unless there's something with SA that is overall better than Assassin, I definitely have enough to go on. If there is and it's nonmagical...........my party won't talk smack to a Duergar for the rest of their D&D career, lol. Otherwise, I'll still have to plan on dumping into Int to cast the spells.
Torack 03-30-06, 04:22 AM	Yes and yes as far as I can tell. And even though its abilities might scream: Rogue, a Duergar's favoured class is indeed Fighter/Psychic Warrior (if your DM employs Psionics). Where did you acquire the idea that it wasn't?
Otto the Bugbear 03-30-06, 07:56 AM	OMG, just got off the phone with a friend about Nightsong....scratch that talk about the Assassin. lol. Sure, I'll dip into it to gain that Death attack and 1d6 SA, new build.... Fighter 2/Ranger 1/ Rogue 3/ Assassin 1/ Nightsong 10. That leaves 3 more levels to get up to 9d6 SA legally. Extra Levels would probably go to Assassin. You already have 7d6 sneak attack with the progression you've posted there. Now, instead of going back into Assassin, which requires pumping Int up, grab 4 levels of Warlock. Granted, it'll cost you any more sneak attack, but just check what you'll be gaining. Detect Magic at will (for those pesky magical traps, abjurations, etc.) Deceive Item to take 10 on UMD checks, even while distracted or threatened. DR 1/cold iron (meh) 2d6 ranged touch attack that is usable with sneak attack. 3 Invocations usable at will. For the character you've described, I'd take: Devil's Sight (see normally in darkness and magical darkness) Baleful Utterance (shatter at will, for so many uses really) Spiderwalk (Spider Climb at will) Actually, I'd intersperse warlock levels within the Nightsong levels. Even two levels wouldn't be bad (to avoid EXP penalties if you use them) to get two invocations. Cheers Otto :)
ashcat_lt 03-30-06, 12:18 PM	new build.... Fighter 2/Ranger 1/ Rogue 3/ Assassin 1/ Nightsong 10. I thought you were trying to avoid the XP penalty. Not sure why you've got that Ranger level in there anyway. Rogue4 would give you Uncanny Dodge and more skill points than the ranger level. Unless you really had your heart set on favored enemy and track?
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-30-06, 12:42 PM	Was ranger not your last level gained, then? Unless it was your 1st level, there is still the option of getting it dropped by a level draining creature and then changing it into a fighter or rogue level when you gain it back. Beats the hell out of taking an xp penalty for your whole life for one bonehead mistake early on.
Gondoras 03-30-06, 01:13 PM	Reason for Ranger- At the time, I had my eyes set on TWF and a couple other benefits like favored enemy Avoiding XP penalty- I never dealt with PrC's before, so I didn't realize that having two of them at spread levels would cause it. Duergar- I got it from unofficial sources, but the idea made sense. Figured Dwarves branched out like Elves where you have FC Archers, Wizards, etc, but just like test taking, the first answer is always right and I should've stuck with Fighter instead of getting terrified about the possibility of XP penalties for nonvalid info. The idea of dipping into two PrC's is pretty nice. At level 20, (depending on how quick I start) they should both be Level 7 (one may be level 8,) which is pretty awesome for most PrC's. Either way, depending on how long we game tonight, I should have enough levels down without messing up to get through before deciding on a second PrC. If we play long enough or have enough major battles that I end up getting 3 levels of Rogue and 3 levels of Nightsong Enforcer.... I may be in trouble. Then again, I may raise another rank in Ranger to go ahead and get TWF and dual wield Dwarven Waraxes. Sure, attack penalty wouldn't be good, but how intimidating would that be?!!! Thanks for all the input. You have helped much more than I could have expected in such a short time. Though you've saved a Duergar, you may have aided in the creation of a really, really bad dude. Liked the benefits of being a Warlock, but I may stay away from it to keep my DM happy :)
ashcat_lt 03-30-06, 01:18 PM	It's not the PrCs that get you, they do not count toward XP penalties. The problem is the Ranger1/Rogue3. Ranger2/Rogue2 would avoid the penalty and give you TWF, but I'm not sure if you'd be able to get into your PrCs with that. Oh, and you would lose 1d6 SA. This might be made up for by the fact that you'll be making one extra SA per round, however. edit: actually, you won't have any problem getting into the PrCs. Both require skills that are on both the ranger and rogue lists. You can't get to Nightsong until after 7th anyway. You will lose 1d6 SA. On the other hand, at 18th level your attacks (without ITWF) will look like +13/+13/+8/+3 with a total of 24d6 SA damage. That's opposed to +15/+10/+5 with 21d6.
Gondoras 03-30-06, 01:23 PM	Was ranger not your last level gained, then? Unless it was your 1st level, there is still the option of getting it dropped by a level draining creature and then changing it into a fighter or rogue level when you gain it back. Beats the hell out of taking an xp penalty for your whole life for one bonehead mistake early on. Wow, you're the man!!! Yeah, Ranger was my last gained level. Since my DM is being strict about keeping this character around he may take that as an option. I don't blame him for not letting me just drop him due to the importance of the character, but he knew going in that I had a lot of rust to wear off, so that's probably the reason for the strictness. He has been an extremely entertaining character and gaining Int to take up being an Assassin would ruin quite a bit of his humor. If not allowed an opportunity to correct this, I have still become intrigued with the way he may turn out, so the option to jump off a cliff while trying to kill a bird isn't as desirable, lol. That's partly the reason I'm looking to raise Int, too......so that he'd be smart enough to realize that killing the bird for food or other isn't as detrimental as the spiked rock formations located at the bottom of the cliff
Gondoras 03-30-06, 01:36 PM	It's not the PrCs that get you, they do not count toward XP penalties. The problem is the Ranger1/Rogue3. Ranger2/Rogue2 would avoid the penalty and give you TWF, but I'm not sure if you'd be able to get into your PrCs with that. Oh, and you would lose 1d6 SA. This might be made up for by the fact that you'll be making one extra SA per round, however. Sorry, I realized what you meant after I posted. Fighter2/Ranger2/Rogue2 would definitely get me in, still. If not, it wouldn't be horrible if I had to do Fighter2/Ranger2/Rogue3, which still leaves 13 levels for a PrC. Shoot, if having 2 PrC's doesn't have a chance of getting a XP penalty, I'm in pretty awesome shape. Should have 14 levels to work with, though. which still allows for the 7/7 to 10/4 range on PrC's. Wow, my group is going to be so jealous, lol. Edited: Never played that you get the extra SA dmg like that, though. I'm imagining that you're going 4atks *6d6 to get the +24d6 dmg, but I was always under the impression that a SA was just one attack that already gets enough bonus. If it combines all the attacks you should have.....Rogue is by far the greatest class ever. The way I do it is Weapon (1d10) + say 7d6 for a maximum of 52 pts of damage which is pretty nice.....but 24d6? 25 minimum damage with a maximum of 154 Range is pretty extreme? Never turn your back on a rogue, lol, especially one with a magical weapon.......ouch
ashcat_lt 03-30-06, 05:00 PM	yessir, I do believe so. at least in certain situations. Improved Invis, for example. When flanking for another. You only get one SA if you are attacking from hiding, because the attack lets the enemy know where you are, but otherwise you get it anytime you make an attack that qualifies. It sure does sound like a lot of damage, but sometimes you have to get into real dangerous situations to get it. You suffer in both the hit point and possibly AC department which makes the front lines of combat not exactly the best place for you. Also, there are piles of critters in the MM that are immune to crits and precision damage like SA. Mind you, I was talking about dual weilding here. That's 3(1d8+6d6) + (1d6+6d6) at best, probably more like 3(1d6+6d6) + (1d4+6d6)...........
Doc225 03-30-06, 07:19 PM	with a dwarven waraxe and a handaxe you get 3 (1d10+6d6) and 1(1d6+6d6) sneak attacks apply based on whatever the defender's status was at the start of your turn. if they are flat footed, or unaware, they remain flat footed or unaware until their turn. if you can sneak attack once, you can sneak attack 4 times. it doesn't apply to multiple attacks that use one attack roll, like manyshot. you apply sneak attack once for each attack roll that qualifies, even AoO's
ashcat_lt 03-30-06, 11:54 PM	Actually, that's not completely true. According the FAQ: If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she turns visible as soon as she makes the attack. Most people consider this to also cover the instance where you are hidden when you make the first attack. That attack lets the enemy know you are there, and unless they are also denied their AC for some other reason you do not get SA for the rest of your iteratives.
Senevri 03-31-06, 05:59 AM	Most people consider this to also cover the instance where you are hidden when you make the first attack. That attack lets the enemy know you are there, and unless they are also denied their AC for some other reason you do not get SA for the rest of your iteratives. Yes... that seems correct. Scenario: Single rogue Vs. a single enemy. ROGUE is sneaking, Enemy is unaware. Rogue moves to melee distance and sneaks. (since this most likely was a Move action he won't be getting a full attack anyway). Now if he can make two blows as one hit, he _can_ get an extra sneaky attack in. However, if he had an extra attack, from, say, Haste or Expert Tactician, those wouldn't get SA dice. Of course, then we get to throw inits, and if the opponent happens to _lose_, the Rogue can full attack +SA all he wants.
Doc225 03-31-06, 10:24 AM	According to the FAQ, you're right, any attack after the first doesn't get SA unless it qualifies on its own. The problem is, that I do not agree with the FAQ. I am in no way disputing you, as you have given the "correct" answer based on the FAQ. What I am disputing is the fact that someone who wins intiative (a modified die roll) catches the oponnent flat footed for any and all attacks until the opponent acts, and someone who takes the effort to use stealth and strategy doesn't. If you are considerd flat footed to an opponent, it should be until that opponent acts again, not until you act. Just another situation where I disagree with the FAQ, no big deal really.
ashcat_lt 03-31-06, 12:20 PM	I wasn't trying to argue with you either. You've raised a good point, and one that I will have to consider for my own campaign. However, I was trying to help the OP get a better idea of how the SA works by the RAW so that he can use it to his full advantage without his DM and fellow players calling him a cheater. That said, when enlarged, with the waraxe you'd get 3(2d8+6d6)+1(1d8+6d6) which sounds like a lot, but keep in mind you actually have to hit with all these attacks. At ECL15, this is definitely not guaranteed, and I'd say most of the time the last couple are more likely to miss. It's an average of 55.5 damage per round if everything hits (and not including str, magic, etc). Before you get too excited, your friend the enlarged raging barbarian is likely to be power attacking for more than that in one hit. And that wizard standing over there in the corner with the wad of bat crap in his hand? He's about to do something like 35 points to everyone in a 20' radius, whether they've got discernable anatomies or not... Except that this is the one he prepared maximized this morning, so it's going to be 60... Edit: It sure is a lot of fun rolling that many dice at one time though!
taradusis 04-01-06, 10:34 AM	leave your junk with a friend or church,die in combat,make a new character one level lower?
Gondoras 04-03-06, 08:39 PM	It's amazing that the last post ended up happening. I had enough XP to raise my racial level, so I did to take gain all the goodies that my character would have. I was still a Level 3 character and the others managed to be a little higher since I missed the last meeting, but we ran into a battle with 5 Level 4 characters (Paladin, 3 Fighters, Ranger.) My wonderful party decided to sneak around and try to take out the Ranger and Paladin first, but left me for dead with the 3 fighters. Amazingly enough, I was able to survive and defeat two of the fighters with some great rolling, but the third one took me out, since the other four in the party still hadn't taken out either the Ranger or Paladin...... Best part, after rerolling and being allowed to rest, we ran into a battle with three other fighters where 2 were level 4 and one was a level 5. (DM really wasn't trying to kill us, but most were really wanting more challenge to level quicker.) Great strategy took place again as I managed to get surrounded by the 4th and 5th level enemies and everyone decided to take out the other level 4..... which was also a fighter. Well, it turns out that after several hours and sessions later, I'm back to a level 1 character. Terrible strategists in my party. Sure, if they waited for the two characters to surround me to hit them with a sneak attack, great, but when they're terrified of giving an AoO to attempt to run and help out a member in their party, we've got problems. Sometimes it's not the player that makes a character useless, I guess, lol. So, it's up to me to figure out the fighting styles of my party. Basically, I guess they're all about surviving and if they are with 4 friends on 1 enemy, chances are, they'll survive. No sense in helping the party member that's holding off two enemies of higher level. Oh well, it'll all come back to them :D
taradusis 04-03-06, 10:24 PM	For your next character pick something fast,like a high dex. barbarian with all the foot speed possible?Consider something from savage species that can fly away?An earth elemental from savage species can sink into the ground like a bullette/land shark,better luck next time and remember,fortune favors the prepared mind! :)
lycanthrope0 04-13-06, 05:47 AM	hey i understand the dillema of being surrounded by Enemies and left for dead by the rest of the party i was playing a 14th level Favored Soul/Sorcer?Mystic thuramegist well i was ussaly a guy who eneded up buffing size,str and con of myself and the other fighters and recing house with a ton of reach from a long spear and size catagories we are sent to get back 4 1st level adventueres that dissapeared near are town ( we actually paid for and had built the town including are homes and left are cohorts to run it when we were leaving for adventures) one of the group escaped and was talking about big toad looking goblins ( think salaad ) well thinking we were in for a fight with sallaad we grabed are gear and went thier then we see a bunch of goblins (20 ish) and im like oh well this is easy fireball well they happened to be 21 level fighters as well and we got owned the other mage teleported the kids out and the barbairian with boots of striding out ran them the bard cast fly and got a way then the 20ish goblins surround me and make me elf bits all over the place in two hits because i had no d up last time i didnt play a charector that ran from a ton of goblins sitting in a cave
Khelvaster 04-13-06, 06:52 PM	Multiclass with a level in Barbarian, and then at level 5 go into the PrC thrall of Juiblex (provided you have the requisite skills)
Trarth 04-13-06, 07:10 PM	I don't do the whole, multi-class exp penalty, it makes my players not want to multi class =( but then again, why would a druegar multi class as rogue, fighter, and ranger?
taradusis 06-29-06, 10:09 PM	Did you qualify for nightsong enforcer yet?