Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nerdkid7 06-02-06, 02:15 AM	In PHB (p156), under grapple, it says "To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll." Then it says "Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from target you are trying to grapple..." I think my DM must've gotten things confused. But lets see... Now, confirm for me if this is how it's supposed to be: 1) You do a melee attack roll to see if you even get a grasp of the person a) Melee Attack Roll = Base Attack Bonus + Strength Modifier (right or no??) b) Success of this attack roll = Going to step 2 Failure = You failed the grapple (or rather, failed to even grasp them) 2) This melee attack roll provokes an attack of opportunity? a) If your enemy's AoO does damage, the grapple fails b) If NOT, your grapple succeeds! Confirm for me first whether the above 2 steps sound right. Now, the reason I ask this is because I casted Earthen Grasp (spell from Complete Arcane). When it flies out of the ground, we assumed that it made a melee attack roll (in order to grapple) against the target. This attack roll failed. (So earthen grasp couldn't get it this turn). However, when the target moved away from the earthen grasp, it provoked an AoO for the earthen grasp. Would that that give the earthen grasp another chance to grapple the target as it's moving away? (I mean, it is a stationary hand; provoking an attack of opportunity would possibly mean it trying to grab the target). My DM let earthen grasp hold the target since it provoked AoO and succeeded in getting an AoO. Is this correct? If so, it might be useful to use earthen grasp as a trap, in a way; like putting it right next to the corner of an intersection of hallways, and when enemies pass, POW! Earthen Grasp grabs as they leave the threatened square (meaning they provoke AoO). lol tell me what is right/wrong!
geekling 06-02-06, 03:48 AM	lol tell me what is right/wrong! No, that's not right. Grappling provokes an AoO, not the other way around. Plus if A is your earthen grasp, A never even gets an AoO during the grapple attempt. So it makes absolutely no sense at all that if A should take an AoO against B the grapple is restarted. A initiate a grapple against B. 1) B gets an AoO against A, this is just a regular AoO * If B deals damage to A, A's grapple attempt have failed. The grapple stops there 2) A makes a touch attack against B to try and grab him. * If B's touch AC beats A' attack roll, the grapple attempt have failed. The grapple stops here. 3) Opposed grapple rolls.
IceFractal 06-02-06, 04:06 AM	Actually, you can grapple on an AoO (or trip, or disarm).
geekling 06-02-06, 04:12 AM	There is a difference between you _can_ use an AoO to initiate a grapple. And an AoO provokes a grapple. It may be a subtle one but it is quite important.
FeceMan 06-02-06, 08:22 AM	If the melee touch attack succeeds and the AoO against the grappler is successful, the grappler still gets ahold of the target and initiates a grapple [which is then resolved with a grapple check]. Why doesn't that blasted spell have the equivalent of improved grapple, anyhow?
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-02-06, 09:11 AM	If the melee touch attack succeeds and the AoO against the grappler is successful, the grappler still gets ahold of the target and initiates a grapple [which is then resolved with a grapple check]. This isn't right under normal circumstances. Unless other timing is specified (such as Karmic Strike where the attacks take place simultaneously), an AoO takes place immediately before the action that triggers it, and can interrupt it. If the AoO in response to a grapple connects and deals damage, the grapple is over before it starts, the touch attack is never even rolled.
Nom 06-02-06, 09:20 AM	If the melee touch attack succeeds and the AoO against the grappler is successful, the grappler still gets ahold of the target and initiates a grapple [which is then resolved with a grapple check].Let's rearrange that into the correct order... If the AoO is successful (and deals damage) then the grapple attempt ends immediately. See PH pg 156, step 1. If the AoO is unsuccessful or deals no damage then the grappler must succeed at a melee touch attack. Step 2. Then you make your grapple check to actually create a grappling situation. Step 3.