Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaldune 06-22-06, 10:33 AM	Our Party will soon be facing the BBEG in the game, a Female Red Great Wyrm. We have defeted a good portion of lesser BBEG under her comand and now it will come to her in the next several gaming sessions. -The Party consist of- Wizard L16/ Radiant servant of Pelor L16/ Rogue L15/ Paladine, Platinum Knight L16/ 2 Sorcerers L11 & L13/ 3 Monks L11/ 2 Druids L11/ Juvinile Gold Dragon(exalted) -The Problem... The Female Red (CR26) aspires to be a god by taking her mothers place and is well on her way to reaching that goal. 1 she has control over most of the chromatics on the material plane and has contries under her thumb as well as having allies in the abyss of numbers unknown. 2 She has a contingent spell that will place her spirit on hert death into one of several awaiting clones. 3 She has an artifact where the curse blocks the gods from the material plane for a period of time (no divine magic). 4 The Kicker. She is the child of Tiamat and Ashardolon ( no god like powers yet) and we think has followed in ger fathers footsteps and is a desiple of ashardolon -What we have going for us.... 1 She is magically bound and cannot cast spells for now. 2 we have troops including wizards hiding in her ranks feeding us information and will fight when called to do so. 3 we know the location of several of her layers. 4 The Cleric has an artifact that allows her to cast as if she was 3 levels higher and gains access to the spells from that level ( useful off plane). 5 The knight has a sword +5 ( +10 extra dmg vs chaotic)that never misses but if the roll does not make it the sword takes his hit points to make up the difference. 6 She thinks that the party died in an explosion fighting against her forces. 7 we are allies with the matallics. 8 We know her true name -To defete her it will take a lot of planning and hopeing the dice roll in our favor. We will level 1 or 2 more times before the encounter hopefully.We have some Ideas but the more the better so have at it. We need all the help we can get
Borne Of Hate 06-22-06, 11:05 AM	Find the clones. Destroy the bodies. Kill the dragon. =)
Khaldune 06-22-06, 11:20 AM	We had no idea it would be that simple. Thanks :rolleyes:
greatamericanfolkhero 06-22-06, 11:26 AM	Find the clones. Destroy the bodies. Kill the dragon. Loot the horde!
Illion the Red 06-22-06, 11:33 AM	You have only one way to come out of this alive if the Great Red is played correctly...negotiation for choice positions in her empire. You are hopelessly outclassed. If she catches you out in the open, you are all dead.
green_yawgmoth 06-22-06, 03:56 PM	You have only one way to come out of this alive if the Great Red is played correctly...negotiation for choice positions in her empire. You are hopelessly outclassed. If she catches you out in the open, you are all dead.Yep. The no spellcasting thing might be more helpful to you than you think; I was in a 20th level party (I was a warlock) against Ashardalon, and dispelling all of his buffs with one voracious dispelling + arcane mastery made so much difference. That said, IF you end up in direct combat, try to get all of the debuff spells in as fast as possible. Enervation, Wingbind, empowered maximized Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion, and so on. Languor is an awesome spell for this if you can get your druid to be allowed to cast it (it's in CD/MotW). Stay broken apart from one another if you can, as that breath weapon is huge. I also pray that your melee monkeys have spring attack or a bow, because a full attack from a dragon will kill someone. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Flushmaster 06-22-06, 05:23 PM	As it is, and has already been mentioned, you are totally outclassed. Unless your DM is a softie there's pretty much no chance you can take out that dragon right now. So don't even try, yet. Encourage the rumor that you're all dead, fly under the radar. Figure out anything you can accomplish to hinder the dragon. She controls kingdoms? Destabilize one or two. Try to sow dissension in the ranks of her armies. Of course, a chance to destroy a clone or three should be taken if you can get away with it. Build up your strength (ie, level up and get better gear). Once you've all gained at least five more levels, consider attacking her directly only if you can call in the cavalry in the form of a couple really big metallic dragons. Seriously, there's a reason that "Dragons" is part of the name of the game and another reason that the Great Red Wyrm is still the iconic "uberboss." Also keep in mind that, when managed correctly by the DM, a dragon is typically the toughest of any enemy available of its listed CR. If this one is also a Disciple of Ashardalon then it's CR could easily be above 30. Keep in mind that this is the BBEG's BBEG you're talking about here, something that could eat the Tarrasque for breakfast and still be hungry.
Khaldune 06-23-06, 01:33 AM	The Dm is no softy and has no quams abt killing off pc's or important npc's that would be benificial in the game.We have fought her several times before(usually teleporting away before she uses her breath weapon)and the only way we surrvied the last encounter was a council of mages bound her from using magic which caught her off gaurd and she fled so that she wouldnt get ambushed by several matallics in the area. We would like to fight her off plane to have the use of the cleric and the pladin. here are some of the spells we plan to use- Immunity to energy (fire), lower SR-15, Scale weakening ac-10, fell the gratest foe+4d6 per hit, suppress breath wepon. Summon elemental monolith. Divine Power, Divine Favor. Mass Heal. anti magic ray. Cold spells ...miracle. Armageddon( if we are loosing) The paldine/platinum knight plans to use this combo in the attack str+10 Sword+5 1d8+10vs chaotic, smite evil dragon x3 for 32 pt, smite evil 16, power attack16/+11/+6/+1, fell the grreatest foe 4d8 x4 which comes out to an average to 326pts of dmg on Round 1. to balance out the powera attack Divine Power will take care of the attack rolls +16.I do believe all this stacks but tell me if I am wrong. There are also a number of young and very old metallics that we can call upon as well as spellcasters and clerics and a small devout army of bahamut under the command of the paladin. It will basically be the end all battle for both sides. She is very over confidant and arrogant and with her belief that the party is dead will be a shock to her when she finds out she was mistaken. The Gods may aid in the fight if we wan get hold of the artifact that keeps their powers at bay from the material plane but one never knows with gods. We know that a good portion of the party will not make it mostly the lower level pcs and that is an acceptable loss. Some may also flee because they do not have a vested intrest in the death of the BBEG. Time will tell when it all come down to the end any other thought or Ideas on taking down a red great wyrm are still appriciated.
Ashok_Lal 06-23-06, 01:59 AM	QUOE:1 She is magically bound and cannot cast spells for now When you say she can't cast spells this is the window of opertunaty!! In game terms that should drop her CR quite a bit. I say now or never!! You have a good force, Good allies, Good information. (or could some of the info be leaked to make seem like a good time?) How trustworthy are your spies? You would hate to go in, just to find it has spell casting abillities after all.
green_yawgmoth 06-23-06, 02:44 AM	If you've got SEM, don't forget to also use (preferably quickened if you don't use 3.0 haste) sonorous hum. Why concentrate when you can have a magical buzzing do it for you? And there's nothing saying you can't cast it like 4 times to have 4 different monoliths beating said great wyrm down. Hell, if you can get a couple extra levels in, you could Time Stop and get out all of your monoliths in one round! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Flushmaster 06-23-06, 04:31 AM	While it's tempting to call an ultimate showdown, I advise patience. This does seem to be an extremely engrossing campaign, from what I can tell from your comments. While you obviously want to win such an epic struggle, relish it as a struggle. It sounds like it's a damn good game already. Milk it. Because if you try to finish it right now, assuming the harsh DM, you're screwed. If he/she is a good DM (considering the complexity, I'm leaning towards believing that you have a good DM) I think that as long as you keep up the pressure (as I suggested earlier) and pick fights as is appropriate to your CR, then keep going with it. Really, as is you have no chance against that BBEG. I'm guessing that your DM is planning on drawing this campaign out to epic levels. If you actually know that the DM has access to Epic Level materials then I claim validation on this. Either way, I say stick it out. Don't get over your head (and this includes attacking the dragon *****). Fight as hard as you can and preserve the illusion of your own deaths. Do the whole guerilla thing. Really, this is part of a long term game. It sound's like you're 2/3 through it. Keep on truckin'.
Khaldune 06-23-06, 12:47 PM	:) I always forget about haste and the time stop those are great ideas. I was talking with the DM and he said we may get close or be at level 20 by the time it all hits the fan. If we can we never try to rush into anything if we can help it. The campaign is a very involved with lots of plot twists like... The BBEG used to be part of the party disguised as an female elf who betrayed us after killing the king of the dwarves causeing the party to be blamed for the murder locking down the dwarven kingdom so they will have nothing to do with the outside world, thank you teleport. She also cast a spell that caused a dormant volcano to erupt underneith our fortress. It survived because the entire place was hallowed by the cleric and she had to roll a 1 out of 100 for it to survive and she did. She also caused a plague on all the metallics that killed many of the wyrmlings, we were able to cure that. She Used Reds to burn the entire elven kingdome to the ground after killing off the ruling body that she was a part of to distablize the continent. She also had the greens breed with lizardfork to create 1/2 breeds for an army that swept across the continant after the fall of the elven empire and crushed all human kingdoms in thier way. Finaly she gained possesion of an artifact where the curse blocks a random deity from the material plane fro two weeks and the power can be used once a day. As you can see The BBEG is no softy. And yes we are screwed with a frontal attack. We keep up the guise that we are dead by killing all of her minoions we encounter. Untill we have all our players in place for the final battle. The Dm gets kicks out of killing pc's though we usually are smarter then him and get out with 1-10 hp after all is said and done and it hepls that the person playing the cleric always seems to get the roll we need when we need it ( dice are rolled in the open) drives the DM nuts its great. Keep with the ideas its the little things that we usually forget to look at.
Kresalak 06-23-06, 01:28 PM	Have your wizard teleport to her, with Skitish Nerves and a few Dex buffing spells active, so that he wins initiative, as well as as many things to help him pierce SR as possible. Have him hit her with Maximized Shivering Touch or whatever it's called, the spell that does 3d6 Dex damage, no save. Her Dex is now 0. She can't cast spells, so her defenses will be weak. Grab a scythe and Coup de Grace until the cows come home.
green_yawgmoth 06-23-06, 04:23 PM	I had an incantatrix who would, in the first round of open combat, do the following (3.0 game with 3.5 stuff when not able to have a 3.0 source): Round 1: Haste, sudden maxed TS. Then during the 5 rounds of TS - Sonorous hum, SEM Sonorous hum, SEM (set up to flank) DBF (using that archmage ability to shift its element) x2 Parboil (from Sandstorm) (element shifted as above) x2 Waves of Exhaustion, Prismatic SphereRound 2-end: Move out, Cast a spell (fire orb for dazing usually), jump back into the sphere. Enemies usually didn't have time to figure out a new strategy before they died/had to flee, and the ones that stayed ended up losing too much int to figure things out. XD http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Votan 06-23-06, 09:02 PM	Have your wizard teleport to her, with Skitish Nerves and a few Dex buffing spells active, so that he wins initiative, as well as as many things to help him pierce SR as possible. Have him hit her with Maximized Shivering Touch or whatever it's called, the spell that does 3d6 Dex damage, no save. Her Dex is now 0. She can't cast spells, so her defenses will be weak. Grab a scythe and Coup de Grace until the cows come home. Of course, this assumes that this particular spell is allowed in your game. It's pretty nasty if it is and a solution to a surprising number of opponents if it is allowed. Of course, it should also be disabling PCs routinely as well being the standard attack spell in such games.
Cifer 06-23-06, 09:31 PM	Her Dex is now 0. She can't cast spells, so her defenses will be weak. Just thinking... how would you say are the chances that she, a great wyrm nearly becoming a godess, might manage a stilled, silenced restoration (or a stilled, silenced anything else)? Of course, she might have a follower take care of that. Or she might simply have some items that boost her dexterity above 18. Anyway, I like the idea of effectively killing a dragon with a single spell... almost as cool as killing a Tarrasque by teleporting it ten feet above the ground and watching it crush itself by the 1300d6 falling damage from its 130 tons of body weight - also called "the reason why elephants don't jump".
DeathsAudit 06-24-06, 09:30 AM	Save or die spells and a greater curse or 2 should take her down but just in case have any magic items hit with Disjuncton, the combat classes doing cold damage and the spells you pack should trap her not kill her like binding (first Chaining so it can't move then Metamorphosis or Minimus Containment so you can keep it from any clones you missed) and store of plane under Archon guard. :D
Kresalak 06-24-06, 03:03 PM	Just thinking... how would you say are the chances that she, a great wyrm nearly becoming a godess, might manage a stilled, silenced restoration (or a stilled, silenced anything else)? Of course, she might have a follower take care of that. Or she might simply have some items that boost her dexterity above 18. Remember that this dragon can't cast spells. She does not have a stilled silenced anything. And items can give her, at most, a Dex of 16, unless she has a Tome of Dex +3, in which case you hit her with a Quickened Shivering Touch beforehand.
Derren S. 06-24-06, 04:54 PM	Unless you use one of the most broken spells in D&D, namely shivering touch (which imo is so broken that using it borders to cheating) the fight will be very hard. First you have to find the clones, but don't destory them but, if possible trap the area so there is no chance that she will survive when the clone awakens. Maybe your DM even lets you imprison the clones before she reincarnates into one of them. When you say you know her truename, do you mean "truename" in the Tome of Magic/Truenamer sense? If yes then this is useless. But if it is a "story" truename then it is probably the key for the battle but only your DM knows what you can do with that name. One tactic would be to increase the damage output of the paladin as much as you can. Full power attack, smite, spirited charge, leap attack, anything which increases the damage as you are sure that you will hit. Also always fight defensivly and use expertise if possible. Those few HP are nothing compared to the higher AC and damage. Just make sure you can heal the paladin when he gets low on HP. (But don't use this tactic before the final battle, otherwise the DM might realize that a never missing sword is very broken and decide to change it).
TJMHPH 06-24-06, 08:59 PM	you are in what i refer to as a BOGA/BOHICA SITUATION. at your current levels you will die easily if not careful. my advice would be to gain 8-10 levels before you go after her before then you are cruchy bits to her.
Rolof 06-25-06, 01:42 AM	Our Party will soon be facing the BBEG in the game, a Female Red Great Wyrm. We have defeted a good portion of lesser BBEG under her comand and now it will come to her in the next several gaming sessions. -The Party consist of- Wizard L16/ Radiant servant of Pelor L16/ Rogue L15/ Paladine, Platinum Knight L16/ 2 Sorcerers L11 & L13/ 3 Monks L11/ 2 Druids L11/ Juvinile Gold Dragon(exalted) -The Problem... The Female Red (CR26) aspires to be a god by taking her mothers place and is well on her way to reaching that goal. Taking her mother's place...uhhuh...and how does mommy feel about daughter dearest? Perhaps this would be a good time to make a deal with the devil, so to speak...though as I look at the composition of your party, I don't see a large portion of them agreeing to fight fire with fire by doing so.
Dungeon Master 06-25-06, 02:55 AM	You could always try and convince Dragotha to take her out ;) Barring that, this fight shouldn't be too difficult *if* you have a few weeks to prepare *and* you can surprise her in her lair (or better yet, in a place of your choosing) *and* you can prevent her from summoning allies *and* she really can't cast spells. Your general plan defintitely has some quality ideas. Protection from fire is a MUST. Freedom of movement is another MUST. You do not want to be grappled by a dragon. Just off the top of my head, here's what I would do: create a lot of scrolls. if a scroll is too high level, have someone else create it or cast the spell on you right before the fight. The key to this fight will be battlefield command. That is, you need to have control over the area in which you are fighting. You can accomplish this with spells such as: wall of force (a great one if the dragon is in an area in which she can't fly), prismatic wall, acid fog, etc... Dragons have great movement speeds, so you want to do everything you can to force them to stay in one spot. You will need protective spells such as: freedom of movement, fire immunity, fly, improved invisibility, stoneskin, displacement, bear's endurance, false life, etc... Since she can't cast spells, she will have difficulty dispelling your abjurations. Dragons may have blindsense, but it doesn't extend forever. If you can silence yourself and negate your smell, you could be effectively invisible to the dragon. Beware magic items. Even if a dragon can't cast spells, it might still have some powerful magic items at its disposal. So, have a scroll of Mage's Disjunction ready. Also, have a bunch of scrolls of greater dispel magic and dispel that contigency! How about earth or fire elemental monoliths and grapple? Exploit her weaknesses. Vulnerability to cold, reflex saves, LOW TOUCH AC(!). The spell, wraithstrike, could come in useful here. How about Irresistable Dance? Dragons gain most of their HP from high Con scores, so lower them with cloudkill or summoned stirges (10-20 of these could really give the dragon a hard time). If you can't summon them, use polymorph any object and charm them (there's probably a better way though). You'll need to cast magic fang so that they can bypass the dragon's DR. Dragons have average Dex scores, so do whatever you can to lower her Dex. Scroll of timestop. Nuff said. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.
Derren S. 06-25-06, 03:07 AM	Dragons may have blindsense, but it doesn't extend forever. If you can silence yourself and negate your smell, you could be effectively invisible to the dragon. That wouldn't help. You either need "superior invisibility" or "hide from dragons". Silence, invisible and trackless step aren't enough Beware magic items. Even if a dragon can't cast spells, it might still have some powerful magic items at its disposal. So, have a scroll of Mage's Disjunction ready. Also, have a bunch of scrolls of greater dispel magic and dispel that contigency! Scrolls have an abysmal DC and caster level so don't expect those spells to succeed. How about earth or fire elemental monoliths and grapple? Can one of those fly? No? Then forget it Exploit her weaknesses. Vulnerability to cold, reflex saves, LOW TOUCH AC(!). The spell, wraithstrike, could come in useful here. How about Irresistable Dance? Dragons gain most of their HP from high Con scores, so lower them with cloudkill or summoned stirges (10-20 of these could really give the dragon a hard time). If you can't summon them, use polymorph any object and charm them (there's probably a better way though). You'll need to cast magic fang so that they can bypass the dragon's DR. Dragons have average Dex scores, so do whatever you can to lower her Dex. Attacking the dragons strength (Con) is useless. Cloudkill allows a fort save and stirges can be easily killed by a breath weapon. And depending on the feats the dragon has the SR could be unbeatable.
Khaldune 06-25-06, 12:41 PM	The sword is not as broken as you think. last time the paladin attacked the Red he lost 50 hp from the sword to make up the differece to hit her AC41 in the first round. When your total attack is 23/18/13/8 those lower numbers start to really hit back hard. It is also possible for the sword to kill the paladin if one doesnt pay attention to HP. As for her true name it was needed to cast the ritual spell along with a sacrifice from a high level wizard that bound her from casting spells. Also with true name the cleric can use it to lower her DR-5 and SR-4 for 1 min (Exalted Deeds) with the Words of creation feat. There will be some things going in the groups favor but the DM is always full of plot twist and he will not make his favorie BBEG go down without taking 1/2 or more of the party with her.
Dungeon Master 06-25-06, 01:44 PM	That wouldn't help. You either need "superior invisibility" or "hide from dragons". Silence, invisible and trackless step aren't enough Sure it would. Dragon's have blindsense, which means that they still suffer the 50% miss chance against creatures they can't see. Now, since most people think of dragon blindsense as a combination of incredible sight, smell, and hearing, I don't see why negating those abilities would not render you invisible to a dragon's blindsense, but that's the DM's call of course. If the DM says that they have vibration sense, flying and using wind effects could arguably negate that method of perception as well. Scrolls have an abysmal DC and caster level so don't expect those spells to succeed. Only if they are created at the minimum caster level. You can create them up to your caster level if you want. Can one of those fly? No? Then forget it If you get surprise, you can grapple before the dragon has a chance to fly. But, like I said before, it's important that you reduce the dragon's mobility, possibly by fighting her in an enclosed area, or by using various spells. If the dragon manages to fly, use an air elemental monolith. sheesh. :rolleyes: Attacking the dragons strength (Con) is useless. Cloudkill allows a fort save and stirges can be easily killed by a breath weapon. And depending on the feats the dragon has the SR could be unbeatable. Cloudkill does half damage on a successful fort save. So, that's 1-2 Con damage a round. Trap the dragon with walls of force, prismatic walls, and acid fogs, and you could easily drain 5-10+ Con points. The stirges should be used right after the dragon breathes on something else. If you have 20 stirges, and 15 or so hit, that's 15d4 Con damage on the next round. Sounds pretty good to me.
Derren S. 06-25-06, 02:02 PM	Sure it would. Dragon's have blindsense, which means that they still suffer the 50% miss chance against creatures they can't see. Now, since most people think of dragon blindsense as a combination of incredible sight, smell, and hearing, I don't see why negating those abilities would not render you invisible to a dragon's blindsense, but that's the DM's call of course. If the DM says that they have vibration sense, flying and using wind effects could arguably negate that method of perception as well. Dragons blindsense uses air vibration and unless you are incorporal or etheral or use a spell especially designed against dragon senses you can't hide Only if they are created at the minimum caster level. You can create them up to your caster level if you want. From what I read spending months on item creation isn't an option. Also when you have to craft them first, why not cast them normally? At this level the fight certainly won't take so long that casters will run out of spells. If you get surprise, you can grapple before the dragon has a chance to fly. But, like I said before, it's important that you reduce the dragon's mobility, possibly by fighting her in an enclosed area, or by using various spells. If the dragon manages to fly, use an air elemental monolith. sheesh. :rolleyes: Considering the casting time of summoning spells using them as a surprise weapon is rather impossible. Also their grapple check is too low to grapple the dragon (50 vs 73) Cloudkill does half damage on a successful fort save. So, that's 1-2 Con damage a round. Trap the dragon with walls of force, prismatic walls, and acid fogs, and you could easily drain 5-10+ Con points. The stirges should be used right after the dragon breathes on something else. If you have 20 stirges, and 15 or so hit, that's 15d4 Con damage on the next round. Sounds pretty good to me. So wasting 5 turns only to use cloudkill? In that time you are already dead, not to mention that the dragon must be extremly stupid to be trapped by spells. And how are you going to summon 20 stirges in 1d4 rounds? Or rather how do you summon stirges at all? They are on no summon list I know of. Also such stirges swars are a wonderfull great cleave target.
Planar Wanderer 06-25-06, 02:17 PM	Sure it would. Dragon's have blindsense, which means that they still suffer the 50% miss chance against creatures they can't see. Now, since most people think of dragon blindsense as a combination of incredible sight, smell, and hearing, I don't see why negating those abilities would not render you invisible to a dragon's blindsense, but that's the DM's call of course. If the DM says that they have vibration sense, flying and using wind effects could arguably negate that method of perception as well. The thing is this really doesn't follow some of that is listed as some of the things that can be an explanation but it's in the context of can include, implying there are other things that can grant blindsense and since the cause of a dragon's blindsense isn't specified you can't say what causes it and then say XYZ should prevent it from working the stuff that blocks all blindsense is detailed anything else is a houserule Only if they are created at the minimum caster level. You can create them up to your caster level if you want. No comment here as you're right although it gets expensive for scrolls at higher caster levels If you get surprise, you can grapple before the dragon has a chance to fly. But, like I said before, it's important that you reduce the dragon's mobility, possibly by fighting her in an enclosed area, or by using various spells. If the dragon manages to fly, use an air elemental monolith. sheesh. :rolleyes: According to the SRD a Great Wyrm red has a grapple mod of +73, trying to grapple it may cause problems. Cloudkill does half damage on a successful fort save. So, that's 1-2 Con damage a round. Trap the dragon with walls of force, prismatic walls, and acid fogs, and you could easily drain 5-10+ Con points. The stirges should be used right after the dragon breathes on something else. If you have 20 stirges, and 15 or so hit, that's 15d4 Con damage on the next round. Sounds pretty good to me. Good luck getting Stirges anywhere near a great Wyrm, Dragons have frightful presence remember? DC for a great red Wyrm is 38 Stirge Will save mod? +1. Aside from anything else surprising a Great Wyrm anything should be nigh on impossible, those things are smart, if its played properly a Great Wyrm should have minions, traps you name it, that said there are obviously special circumstances around this dragon.
Derren S. 06-25-06, 02:24 PM	One thing we should remember, we don't know the stats of the dragon. She is certainly much more powerfull then a normal great wyrm, if not the old metallic dragons alone could kill her very easily.
Dungeon Master 06-25-06, 03:23 PM	A great wyrm red shouldn't be nigh-impossible, it should be the equivalent of any other creature of the same CR. Granted, a 26 CR is pretty darn hard to defeat :) To address your points: Blindsense is blindsense. Meaning, if you are invisible, then the dragon has a 50% miss chance and all that. Also, the range for blindsense is what, 60 ft? Many spells have a longer range than that, so keep your distance. I understand that negating forms of perception using clever tricks often goes into the realm of the houserule, but that's why DM's are people and not computers. If something makes sense, the DM should allow it. In any case, if the DM allows it, he could just use the spells in the Draconomicon. It takes a day to craft a scroll, I believe. So, spend a week and craft 7 scrolls. You might not need them, but if you do you'll be glad you have them! I wasn't aware that a great red wyrm has a +73 grapple mod. Nor did I know what the monolith's grapple mod was. If it's only +50, then that is indeed a problem. Still, the monoliths should be great at soaking damage, blocking paths to the wizards, and so forth. As for summoning spells taking a full round to cast, if you have surprise and you aren't too close, you should be able to get a spell off. Or use time stop (hence the scroll of Time Stop) I already explained a way to get stirges (polymorph other and charm). It might not be the best way, but it would work. Planar wanderer is right about the frightful presence though...not sure how to get around that. Five rounds is only one round when you use Time Stop. So, how about four prismatic walls and a cloudkill/acid fog/whatever? Of course, you would have to do this indoors, where there is a ceiling...like a dragon cave. Hell, if you can completely enclose the dragon, just let it suffocate. As for a dragon being too intelligent to be trapped...uh, only if the DM cheats through metagaming (having the dragon already prepared for the PC's tactics, despite the fact that she thinks they are dead). If the DM does equate a dragon's Int with a god's ability to plan for all events before they occur then no character should be able to defeat a dragon...ever. And that would make it more than CR 26. A high Int score gives bonuses to skills, DCs, extra spells, etc... it's not an excuse to make a monster invincible. These were just ideas off the top of my head. I'm sure that there are far better strategies, but it is clear that defeating this dragon is far from impossible. Given time to plan, create items, buff, and surprise the enemy, nearly any BBEG can be defeated without too much trouble.
Dungeon Master 06-25-06, 03:24 PM	One thing we should remember, we don't know the stats of the dragon. She is certainly much more powerfull then a normal great wyrm, if not the old metallic dragons alone could kill her very easily. Well, we know she is CR 26, right? So, she can't be that much more powerful. If she happens to be a great wyrm disciple of ashardalon 10/dragon ascendent 10, her CR sure ain't 26...and this fellow is in a hell of a lot of trouble.
Derren S. 06-25-06, 03:44 PM	CR 26 ist the normal CR for a red great wyrm. And without spellcasting she has no chance against several old silver dragons + PCs (and I think its just a guess by Khaldune) The dragons blindsense uses all possible senses. Scent, air vibration, sound. And unless etheral/incorporal you can't remove air vibrations, so a flying, invisible, scentless, silenced wizard will still be detectable with blindsense. You forget that scribing scrolls also costs money and XP and not to few when you craft them at a high caster level. Also time seems cruical othgerwise the dragon can cast again. The monolith has the problem that the caster needs to concentrate which reduces him to be able to cast quickened spells. Not a good tradeoff if you ask me (except you use the hum spell or whatever green Yawgmoth mentioned. Which book is that spell in btw?). They also only have a round/level duration so summon them too far away and the spell is wasted. And unlike a computer game the "boss" certainly won't wait in its chamber for you to buff up. A charmed stirge won't go anywhere near a red dragon. Charm is not dominate so you have to cast dominate monster on every stirge. Then you assume that you get the full 5 rounds of a timestop which is only a 25% probability. Also you can't completly encluse the dragon because there is no wall which can be placed horizontally. And having a cave with such a low ceiling is again a case of extremly stupid dragon. And as soon 2 walls are in place it is clear what you want to do and the dragon will react accordingly. Its not metagaming to step out of a slowly closing cage. Imo you are focused too much on the 10 ft x 10 ft boss room idea. Its more likely that the battle will take place on an huge open field/space as thats where dragons are the strongest. Also don't try to find innovative ideas, try to find working ideas.
1CentSage 06-25-06, 04:03 PM	The challenge here is not the combat powers of the dragon itself, especially not if it can not cast spells. Given the size and level of your party and the fact that you might level up a few more times, the dragon will be not hard to kill if you can choose the time and place of combat. If you look for at the red great wyrm example in the Draconomicon (CR 26), it has 660 hp, meaning your party arcane casters can blast it away with maximized orbs of cold or the like in 2-3 rounds even without the help of the melee characters. That said, the real challenge is to be prepared for traps, minions, items etc. the dragon will have prepared and to avoid all the contingencies it has made for the case being killed, because even if you choose a seemingly foolproof strategy, there is always the odd item/minion/circumstance that can ruin everything. So your strategy will have to be to avoid attention of the dragon, gather the necessary information, validate and double check it, then start thinking about the best killing/subduing strategy. Everything else is risky at best. As I pointed out above, under favorite circumstances the killing itself is not a big problem, but if the circumstances turn out to be less favorite you will probably loose and all further attempts (if you survive anyway) will be even less likely to succeed.
Planar Wanderer 06-25-06, 04:04 PM	I feel stupid now, I didn't mean to say it should be nigh on impossible that should have read nigh on impossible to catch unawares, I definitely thought that I just forgot to type it :embarrass
Khaldune 06-25-06, 04:14 PM	trouble is an understatement but thats the fun of the game if haveing a good DM it never gets dull. CR 26 is the base guess and if it is higher it will be delt with and if we can catch her off gaurd the DM will allow it he's not one to change things because they are not going his way. We've killed off several powerful creatues in that past that should have wiped the floor with us but because we caught them off gaurd and the DM was having a crappy dice night they turned out to fall fairly easy. There has also been times were the party had to flee with out tail between our legs just to survive. Like when the red dispelled the magic hut we were in and used her breath wepon, our little rogue was fried and the rest of us teleported out with a giblet of the rogue to resurect her and al fair amout or equipment was left behind. In the game the gloves are always off.
Inigo_Montoya 06-25-06, 04:41 PM	I'm a pal of Utilitarian and a first time poster on this forum. Anyway has anyone in your party considered just leaving? This situation seems very daunting maybe so much so that what it really is is a cry for help from your overworked DM. Maybe that last weekend when you guys hit the mint schnapps a little too hard and he waxed about his player characters of long ago, he was really reaching out to you all to release him from the shackles of DMhood. Usually when my DM gets to roudy I buy him a night out at the strip club and usually the next time we play we get treasure. Just my two-cents. :D
Dungeon Master 06-25-06, 04:53 PM	I don't know how good an idea it is to hope the DM rolls poorly ;) The frightful presence defeats the stirge idea, I admit. According to the SRD, an invisible creature is invisible even to blindsense (but not blindsight). So, while the dragon can pinpoint the square the PC is in, the miss chance applies. The DM can rule otherwise, but that of course is a house-rule. I'm certainly not focused on the idea of the dragon being in a tiny room, but I do believe that the PCs should make every attempt to fight the dragon in an enclosed area. Again, this comes back to fighting the dragon on their terms, not hers. There are plenty of adventure modules with dragons where the ceiling isn't more than 60 ft. high. If you can't use a wall, use solid fog. If you can't use that, use something else. There are PLENTY of good battlefield control spells out there...find them and use them. Scribing scrolls does cost money and xp, but so what? High level characters have tons of money and more than enough XP to create a few scrolls. Whether you decide to use them or not, they are good to have, and frankly I don't know why you are arguing this particular point since almost everyone thinks that scribing scrolls is generally a good idea. I don't think the ideas I'm mentioning are innovative (hell, there's even a thread about "Stirges Are Broken"). I do think my ideas work, and you of course are free to disagree :) It is worth getting a greater maximize metamagic rod. Timestop maximized = five rounds. Since it's on a scroll, this tactic might not work, but hey, you're only a level away from 9th level spells, so go earn some XP! But if you want to go the boring route of 'deal massive damage'... how about maximized, quickened orbs of acid? Easy touch ac, no SR, lots of damage. If you can beat SR without too much problem, do orbs of cold. Metamagic rods will help you here. Polar ray might come in nicely too. get a scroll of prismatic sphere to protect your mages and blast away with quickened orbs and rays.
Derren S. 06-25-06, 05:00 PM	No one said that the dragon could "see" the invisible PC, you just can't prevent the dragon from pinpointing him. Yes there are many battlefield controll spells, but non of those spells is able to instantly trap the dragon so the dragon can simply escape before the trap closes. High level characters do have a lot of money but in equipment and not in cash. That means simply scribing some high level spells and buying a greater rod of maximization (worth 121,500) can't be done on a whim. And you can't cast through a Prismatic Sphere and as there is no "Cast on the run" the Sphere won't protect you much.
green_yawgmoth 06-25-06, 06:20 PM	A It takes a day to craft a scroll, I believe. So, spend a week and craft 7 scrolls. You might not need them, but if you do you'll be glad you have them!Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price. So making a few really useful scrolls would probably take a few months, just like any other magic item. Scrolls suck. I'd try to get all of the elemental/summoning buff feats (augment summoning, augment elemental, etc) that you can so that your monoliths are even beefier. Do it right and each of those monoliths can have around 700hp and a grapple that could stand up to the dragon's. And remember to cast Wingbind until it works. No flight will hinder it more than you can possibly imagine. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif