Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LadyAthena 11-27-05, 01:04 AM	I was wondering if anyone has some suggestions for my situation: I'm the only female player in my D&D group. My husband is the DM, but it's been clear that he hasn't played favorites because I don't make any more money or take any less hits or have it any easier (or harder) than the other players. That said, after my last character was basically chased out of the group (because of a conflict of alignments - totally understandable, if not disappointing), the players and their characters have become kind of hostile towards me as a player and character, in general. I'm playing an elven ninja who actually ridded the group of a fantastically evil amulet without them having to break a certain verbal contract with an employer, so my character has already proved her worth; she's also used her stealth several times to help the group. Any ideas on how to improve the other players' attitude?
godrik glendower 11-27-05, 01:24 AM	How long have you been playing with the group? If you're new to the group, it could be just gang up on the new "guy" time. It could be that they got away with running you out once, so now you have to prove yourself. Either way, it seems like your best bet is to stick it out and enjoy the challenge of proving yourself to them. It's fun to change people's minds :D If you've been with the group for a while, and this behavior is just beginning it may cue a deeper problem. If its all the other players it must be comming from somewhere. This seems more like an out of character conversation is in order. Talk to them, and more importantly, listen to them. If they have a beef, and all of them hold to it, then they may just have a point. Other random thoughts: how old are the other players? are you the odd "man" out in any way (ie: do they all work together and you not etc)? Does your husband also see the hostility you do? What does he think about it? good luck, and remember, its easier to change your own attitude than a group of others. (which is not to imply that other people don't suck from time to time, I was just going for the confucious/buddha/Mr. Miyagi ending).
danielinthewolvesden 11-27-05, 01:57 AM	Hmm- is this new PC also Evil? Really, truely- an Evil PC just plain doesn't work in a standard adventuring party. Most DM's would say "Sorry, no Evils". The fact that your husband the DM hasn't made this ruling has likely caused the discord- they think he's letting you play Evil becuase he's favoring you, or that you're taking advantage of him. So- looks like you're working on a "strike 2" charatcer. I suggest trying a much more good PC, one who is big in co-operation with the group. Maybe a healing cleric. I'm guessing that this really isn't your cup of tea- but you're going to hafta win the group over by showing you CAN run a trustworthy PC. Of course, if it's an Evil campaign, I'm completely wrong...... :D
LadyAthena 11-27-05, 02:29 AM	All good suggestions, but I don't think they've helped: First, it's actually only two people who are being jerks. One is really nice in real life, but he's become a total jerk about my characters. The other is immature, and, in all actuallity, I guess I shouldn't feel targeted by him because he actually calls everyone else "stupid" and "useless" too. Second, our party is evil with neutral tendencies. The DM tells the whole group what he'll allow and what he won't, so it's not like I get a private set of rules that everyone else is discouraged to indulge in. Third, I'm not new. I've been playing since the beginning and so have the two hostiles. We're actually the core group because we've played since the beginning of the formation of the group. I'm really just whining here. I'm sure that half of my problem is that I was really into my last character and was kind of upset that she'd been run off. Yes, it's only a game and characters are made to be lost, but you know how it is sometimes. I didn't yell at anyone or cry or even complain to them (I saved that for you guys :P). That's what really irks me about this situation: I haven't given these two cause for vengence. Also, just as a side note, I don't think that most DMs say "no evil." Being evil doesn't mean you have to be a mindless torturing rapist. Most players wouldn't even put up with that behavior.
KJW 11-27-05, 09:22 AM	Hostility comes from two sources, in character and out of character. In character is fine and is good roleplaying, but sometimes it is affected by out of character issues. When this happens problems will develop. I find that often either the slighted player or the offending player often is dealing with outside issues that fuel the out of character issues. As the slighted playeryou should ask if there is any reason for heightened sensitivity about the other players. For example, one of my players has been going through family deaths and unemployment, and he became very sensitive to the other players and felt everyone was against him. This was after they have gamed with each other for over a year with no problems. In fact his paranoia made him totally change his character from CG to CE and the PC did leave the party. He is now back on track with some new characters and all is fine. So ask if maybe the problem is with you? Now offending players will often indirectly bring in out of character issues, maybe the players have a problem with you or maybe your husband. This problem could be jealousy, especially if they are unmarried gamers I have seen this before. They may not even realize they have issues, I have seen this a number of times over the years. Usually, I just have to point it out privately to a player and he or she will quickly correct their conduct, with some healthy reminders. My wife has had difficulties with my groups over the years, but she has never had a character kicked out (though she has left the group a number of times), this is what I find troubling in your situation. I do think there may be other issues. I don't know your group well enough to say what, but I suspect something else is going on. Regardless, I would advise just plowing forward and making you character useful, and try to figure out any issues and have either yourself or the DM address these issues. To be honest I feel that it is the DM who sets the mood of his group, while your husband may not be playing favorites he does need to make sure that you are being treated fairly. One of my mistakes way back in time was that I didn't deal with out of character issues, now that I do my group is running near perfectly. Side note: Most sane DMs say no to evil. ;) Of course, most DMs aren't sane so you are probably right.
shadowrisae 11-27-05, 10:37 AM	It could potentially be coming from many different issues. KJW hit most of them right on the nose. I'll try to clarify on them with my own experiences. Being female: I'm a female player and DM, though mostly DM at the moment. The only time I was treated different was when my boyfriend and I were both new to D&D, our (married and male, his wife was a player too) DM seemed to have more patience for teaching me than my boyfriend. But other than that, I've never been treated different. However, maybe some of the other guys in the group see D&D as a "guys' night out" sort of thing so don't like you being there because of that. Being a little bit of a tomboy, I've seen this before when I've hung out with male friends on occasion. Being a close friend of theirs they didn't want to tell me to go away, but at the same time they just wanted to be with the guys. Out of character issues: My boyfriend had some annoyances with the wife of our first DM. She's the type of person that if there's not constant action she's bored. Our DM didn't mind really any kind of situation but he would throw lots of action at us to appease his wife. However, that wasn't good enough for her. She always had to make her character shine above and beyond the rest of the players' characters. She would try to make him reroll monster rolls if they were bad for her. She would want the best treasure. This wasn't a character issue, we just thought his wife was acting like an immature child. This almost made my boyfriend stop playing D&D because he got so angry. :weep: In character issues: During Dreamcatcher, the last long campaign I DMed, our old DM came back but this time as a player. He's a pretty good guy, but he picked the most annoying characters to play that were constantly clashing with the party personality wise. First he was a paladin who was constantly running ahead and being a little greedy (DM did this on purpose due to the personality). This ended up getting him fried by a high level magic caster (he was annoying me the DM and the rest of the party so much, I couldn't help myself - I even gave him the chance to run but he didn't take it. Oh well... :evillaugh ). Next he was a young female barbarian/shaman girl that had a very low intelligence. Her low int got the party in trouble several times. That would've been fine, but imagine a 27 year old guy playing a young 14 year old girl (he even faked the voice) that throws tantrums in the middle of battles. This annoyed the players for obvious reasons. :mad:
danielinthewolvesden 11-27-05, 12:54 PM	That said, after my last character was basically chased out of the group (because of a conflict of alignments - totally understandable, if not disappointing), So then- what alignment WERE you playing? LG? :confused:
Talonz 11-27-05, 11:01 PM	I'd be curious to know what your husband says of this situation. Why and how was your last character run off? How were the 'hostile 2' involved in this? There must be something to make them hostile to you, even if it is simply in their little minds...
digoraccoon 11-28-05, 10:44 AM	I'd be curious to know what your husband says of this situation. I was going to ask if the DM has noticed any OOC hostilities in the group toward you. It's good that he's not playing favorites, hopefully all players are on the same page. In my group one of the players has an OOC immaturity against female players so he always bumps heads against my Wife and any female players that sat in my games. The guy is in his 40s too, the oldest player we had and we'd think with age came wisdom but... He played a scout one time and argued with my wife who was a cleric that he know more about cleric abilities then she did. :rolleyes: Sometimes there are people that can't seem to keep a maturity about themselves for opposing gender players. In my case I had to politely remove the player from the game after discussions with him not to harass the female players. Sometimes its a case that people simply can't get along. Sad though. Just wanted to share my experience.
LadyAthena 11-28-05, 04:09 PM	So then- what alignment WERE you playing? LG? I was true neutral, but the party got convinved that I was evil because I had some succubus in me...As I've said, I can't blame the characters for chasing me out. As for my husband, he's a good story teller but he hates confrontation and will simply not bring up any issue, be it problems I've complained about, things that bother him, or group issues. (For instance: we have a player who insists on cheating during character creation. He uses about 3x as much creation money as he's supposed to, he takes too many levels, he fudges on his ability stats (usually he rolls until he hits a really high number, even though we use a point-pool system) He irritates all of us because he just wants to run around smashing things and specifically cause problems for the party.) I've talked to my husband about my issues and he's said that he noticed that the two were continuing to be somewhat harsh towards me. One of these two was the one who manacled me for trying to open a tomb that he, minutes later, opened and the other is the unofficial leader of the party. As far as being the only female, as open minded as (most) people try to be, the fact that I'm a girl and they're not is something we're always aware of. It's always in the back of our minds because we're just human, however, I don't think I'm catching flack just for that. I'm actually pretty good friends with most of them, we hang out during other times {at their request) as well and there isn't any problem. I suppose jealousy that we're married could be part of it; hey, I'd be jealous, I mean, I'm just that hot :drool: :love: ...er...ok, or not. :P My husband told me that he thought my problem with the guy who manacled me ( :ahem: ) was that I was being more sensitive than a guy would. I don't appreciate being yelled at that I'm useless and stupid and that I should shut up. I kind of figured that that would be universal, but my husband thinks that it's not that big of a deal. I'm still not going to put up with it but obviously it's something that I need to put an end to myself. As far as the other guy...I just don't know what's going on. He's really nice when we're not playing, and he was nice before. I suppose I'll just make a new character (diplomat, jeez, we need another diplomat) and see how it goes! Thanks for everybody's input!
Talonz 11-29-05, 04:01 AM	The party is evil,and they chase your N char out of the party? Weird. I guess being manacled just so the other player could get the loot out of the tomb is in character alignment wise, but it isn't very nice player wise. And there is no reason for a player to be verbally abusive. None. No one should have to put up with that. Its a shame your dm/husband doesn't back you up on this one, because he really should. The fact that he allows an evil party and doesn't stop cheating and verbal abuse is going to lead to trouble no matter what you do. Based on what you said, the problem isn't you so change will have to come from without. Yeek. Good luck.
tarsia 11-29-05, 01:59 PM	Just saw this thread today, so I thought I'd throw in a couple comments as a female gamer & DM. Honestly, the DM should be the one to address this, and it's a shame he hates confrontation so won't. It might be someone as simple as sitting down with the problem people out of game and talking things over. Additionally the guy who cheats during character creation should have been dealt with after the first incident of such cheating. That sets a bad example in my opinion. Part of the problem, to me, sounds like there's a lack of party coehesion. I don't know about other groups, but the ones I've been in, we generally strive towards having a group that, well, works together. I know I was in a group while we were out of state for a couple years (husband was in grad school) where party coehesion wasn't really used among the gamers there. So I took control of the group (became party leader, made sense anyway since I was a social rogue), and eventually the party worked really well together and we had a good sense of coehesion. My husband told me that he thought my problem with the guy who manacled me ( ) was that I was being more sensitive than a guy would. I don't appreciate being yelled at that I'm useless and stupid and that I should shut up. I don't think you were being more sensitive than a guy for being manacled. I know some guys who would have been rather ****** in and out of character. So being upset over it is not a 'female thing'. Additionally, being yelled at about being useless/stupid/to shut up is something that shouldn't be tolerated at the table, in my opinion. We're all adults. I don't think anyone in my group would put up with being repeatedly yelled at like that - either they'd leave or the offender would be kicked out (depending on the situation). Now why these people are so different in and out of game, I have no idea. If you do go with trying a new character, I'd suggest making sure there's a good RP reason why you're joining the party, to see if you can get the party to like the character more. But constantly changing characters probably isn't going to help either.
ENHenry 11-29-05, 04:16 PM	It's also possible they're afraid your new character will be disruptive to the group, if the last one is. In the end, sometimes it's just better to sit down with someone and air greivances on the table. Just be open and honest in a nonconfrontational way, and point out for the sake of the group that you want to have a fun character in a good game, and if there's something that's causing a problem, letting you know would be important to you. You can better decide whether it's better to do this at table, during a shared meal, in a private e-mail, what have you.
Kaleanae en'i Mori 11-29-05, 08:44 PM	The guy that abuses you and the others should not be tolerated, its demeaning and the DM should stop that. We had a guy in our game that was a control nut and would try and control every situation, eventually for the good of the group he was asked to cease or leave. He left. Luckily for him as I came very close to spending large amount of gold to have him assassinated because him put us all at risk. Could they believe they are superior to your gaming abilities? Attachment to characters is natural! Our party was captured by a Vampire Lord once and one of the players did a deal with the Vampire, he was released and I was left there - forever! The vampire was not happy with me after I killed his 3 vampire lovers, the other player, my characters so called blood brother sold me out! I never found out about it for about a year. Later in another game he got another of my characters kill by his stupidity. Revenge is sweet!! I got him eventually. If they want some hardcore roleplay, hey your the Ninja! Set them up for a fall, see how smart they really think they are. Or perhaps take a step back and have a break, stop playing. See how they respond to that? If they ask why, then tell them how you feel. Honesty is the best here. If they cannot see how you feel and respond in kind to rememdy the situation they are not worth playing with!! This is suppose to be fun. Our group took a bit to settle down but know we have a lot of fun and work together. Good luck and stay frosty
LadyAthena 11-30-05, 04:56 PM	Actually, even though they've been mean, they were just waiting for my ninja to mop up a situation they couldn't get themselves out of. They want the help, they just don't want to be nice about it. I guess we'll just see how it goes this coming week. We had a two week break because of Thanksgiving.
anarco_rata 11-30-05, 06:39 PM	If they're beign jerks in character then don't do nothing for the group. After all you're evil, if they don't like you then don't help themm, you can always find more pawns.
KJW 11-30-05, 08:06 PM	As a male gamer and husband DM I will have to agree with Tarsia. It falls to the DM to rein in offensive conduct, that includes cheating and unnecessary hazing of female gamers. I also agree that you were not being too sensitive. Finally, I think Tarsia is right on the money when she says that you are with a not very cohesive group, which contributes to a lot of these problems. Now all of that said, I can understand why your husband doesn't want to be confrontational, it's a game and should be fun, but I have learned that the moment the DM demands everyone to respect one another it becomes ever more fun for everyone. Now I am afraid that there is a way to clear up any misconceptions from these male gamers, and that is to simple strike back. Sadly, some male gamers just don't respect female gamers until they have been taught a lesson. In college, when I was not confrontational with my players, we had a new player who was disruptive to the campaign and rude to my wife (girlfriend at the time). I should have done something, but I didn't. I didn't want to be confrontational. My wife decided to do something about the situation, so her PC killed the new PC, and my wife made it clear without a word out of gameplay that the player should not come back and he didn't. I should have taken care of situation, but I didn't, so it fell to my wife. My wife has killed disrespectful PCs a few other times and has played a few characters that simply frightened other players for their brutal efficiency. She has had to do this to deal with idiot male gamers, not all of them were offensive, some were patronizing, but that is just as bad. My current group loves her as a player and group leader, but she prefers solo campaigns as she doesn't have to deal with stupid players. The lesson is that you can take matters into your hands, but this may make you unhappy to play with groups and force your husband to run you in solo campaign. Or your husband can deal with it and maybe keep you happy in group campaigns. Just a thought.
LadyAthena 12-01-05, 04:36 PM	You guys are right, the group is not cohesive. That's a big problem. No one wants to work together IC and they're not too hot on admitting new PCs. Combat is fun because the group suddenly goes, "Oh! Let's work together!"
Always-Late 12-01-05, 06:03 PM	Why don't you just let them die when they really need bailing out? After all, the party (characters, at least) is treating you like crap.
KJW 12-02-05, 08:42 AM	Well a group of evil characters will not be very cohesive. The day I mandated good alignments in my campaign it really helped the party come together, part of this is that most good characters are aligned with some organization or cause. It gives them a purpose that is lacking with evil characters. Most players want to be evil to be free from allegiances and any obligations to others. This makes it hard for them to be cohesive. My current group is phenomenally cohesive, they are very good at working together in nearly any setting, because they play the good guys. A few years ago, I played a superheroes adventure in which half the party were the good guys and the other half were the bad guys. The good guys were my best roleplayers and they drew up horribly weak but interesting superheroes, while the bad guys who were my worst roleplayers and best munchkins (fortunately none of them are still in my group) drew up insanely powerful villains. It should have been over in a few combat rounds, but the villains were not cohesive they all did their own thing and wouldn't help one another when things went poorly. The superheroes were a tight team, innovative, and totally destroyed the villains. A party of good-aligned characters will perform better than a party of evil-aligned characters, not just from this example but from many others I have seen over the years. Something to consider.
tarsia 12-02-05, 09:53 AM	Well a group of evil characters will not be very cohesive. The day I mandated good alignments in my campaign it really helped the party come together, part of this is that most good characters are aligned with some organization or cause. It gives them a purpose that is lacking with evil characters. Most players want to be evil to be free from allegiances and any obligations to others. This makes it hard for them to be cohesive. ......... .......... A party of good-aligned characters will perform better than a party of evil-aligned characters, not just from this example but from many others I have seen over the years. Something to consider. I disagree. It really depends on the people whom you let play evil. There's no reason that an evil group can't be just as cohesive as a good group - but it really really really depends on how the players play the characters. Not every evil person can accomplish their goals on their own, and the smart ones will realize this and find a group of like-minded people with which to work. And the only way they're going to get anywhere is if they work together. That said, I've encountered few players who I think could (or have seen few players) actually pull off evil. Now if you were to have these players all in the same group, I think they would make an evil party just as cohesive as any good party. Of course, in my opinion, one thing that's key to having a cohesive group is having a good party leader. I've taken a non-cohesive group (a good-aligned group that time) and by taking up the mantle of party leader, turned them into a rather cohsive group. Which is impressive for me, since up until that point I'd never even tried such a feat before and I was often quiet during games. But the lack of cohesiveness was making the gaming not so fun. It actually got to the point in the group that we were all rather annoyed with one player because he was never satisfied with the character he was playing (and was constantly changing characters). We never felt that he was part of the group. Eventually he got booted from the game.
Bruunwald 12-02-05, 01:42 PM	This sounds shockingly familiar. I believe I recall a thread from a few weeks back, where a player was complaining about his DM's wife's evil... druid? Is that right? And how she had to be chased out, and now how she was creating another character that the rest of the party either believed was evil or was being played as evil. In any case, some players never get over the notion of the DM's wife or girlfriend (or boyfriend!) being in the game, and can't believe they would not be favored over the others, even if they've been given no reason to believe otherwise. People often decide what they're going to see before they see it, and no amount of proof to the contrary will change their minds. Gamers can be among the most stubborn (and imaginative) with regard to this. I DM and my wife is one of my players. None of my players ever accused me of playing favorites (I don't) and still don't accuse me after years of playing, except for one troublemaker, who at first was kidding, but made the joke so often he began to delude himself into believing it. Once he believed it (and he could never point to any proof other than his own jokes about it), it took him attacking my wife's character with his own, arguing with her personally, getting thrown out and being isolated by his own friends (who took our side in it) before he could settle down and come back to center. In your case, the thing with the amulet probably didn't help. Even from my perspective, reading it as an outsider, it seems contrived. The party could easily believe that your husband allowed you to fix this for them in order to get on their good side. They probably are feeling manipulated, whether or not this is true. In the end, there is not much you can do about this sort of situation. If you all had a social life together outside of the game, this probably would not be such an issue. My players are all also our friends. We go to movies together, we hang out. They know us and know that we don't and won't cheat or play favorites. We also both play when one of the players takes a turn as DM, which probably reinforces the idea that we are willing to take the rolls as they come. To that end, your husband ought to see that his wife is uncomfortable - even singled out, and take action. His wife's happiness, after all, should be more important than the game. Perhaps it is time to dismantle this group and create one that is more friendly to your lives: friends that belong to both of you, not just gamers that come over once a week, then leave. Alternatively, if the game is something he loves, you might leave him to it, and excuse yourself. It's no use playing if it makes you unhappy.
LadyAthena 12-03-05, 02:19 PM	I agree about evil groups not having to be messy and individualistic. Many people play evil that way because they don't think it through, but evil can be done and it can be done well. As far as the amulet issue being contrived, not at all. None of us, including the DM, new how that was going to work out until I actually did it. If they feel cheated on that one, then they have more problems than I care to deal with. As far as a group of friends, we're new to town and these guys have become our friends. Not just mine, not just his, but ours. We do hang out in our free time, and not just to talk about gaming, so this isn't some random hobby-shop group gone awry. I think we've actually worked out a way for the character who was run off to come back. She fit best within the group out of any of the other characters I'd had before. (I've had a slew of strange luck with characters. First one died after the first session, second one got married after two sessions.) The party really appreciated her skills as a diplomat (which are sorely needed) and they liked her as well. When she left the party, they were about to fight an ancient demon who, in all likelihood, was going to be a TPK, and they knew it. Bahiya (her name) did have her feelings hurt and was also convinced that they were headed into a losing battle. If not sad to feel ousted, at least she'd live. The group ended up killing the demon and is now defending a large city from being overrun from a huge evil army of orcs and goblins. Bahiya went back to that town when she left (no, not because I just decided so this second, but because that's the safest, most profitable town in the province) and would probably be helping fight to save it now (hey, she can always run if it gets overtaken). Hopefully, fate will be with her to have a chance glimpse of her old party.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 12-04-05, 01:51 AM	In my group one of the players has an OOC immaturity against female players so he always bumps heads against my Wife and any female players that sat in my games. The guy is in his 40s too, the oldest player we had and we'd think with age came wisdom but... He played a scout one time and argued with my wife who was a cleric that he know more about cleric abilities then she did. Let's be honest, we (gamers), as a group, share a pretty high number of social misfits. We've come a long way since the beguinning, but the fact is the hobby attract his fair share of social losers. I have seen the kind of behavior you descrived. Thing is, when we asked the fossil what he had against Julie, he said he liked her. My guess: he had a major crush on her (she was both a cutie and a fellow role-player, the whole package :D) ). His "hostility" was just him expressing it the only way he knew, by early-teen-like teasing and showing off.
TinManFan 12-04-05, 01:04 PM	Ok, few things I'm thinking. 1. The last character they didn't quite like and chased them out. When you rolled up a new character maybe they thought it was going to be more than the same and didn't keep an open mind about meeting a new char run by the person who had caused strife before. 2. They're incompetant dingbats with a serious maturity problem. Gonna go with a little of number one and a little of number two given the posts I've seen. Hey. people are stupid. Just the way of the world. Now confronting this thing head on with a big old bare knuckle scream fest isn't gonna solve anything. Immature guys scream REAL loud and ya just aren't gonna beat him on that. Plus there's the problem that it might drive some people away from your group and no one wants that. Just be more subtle. Play an effective character. The trap finder/ sneak attacker or healer come to mind if they're not filled. Another option is to play something they've never seen before. An evil Psion (Telepath) is a freakin sight to behold. Throw in some Thrallherder and not only are you impressive, those 2 thralls and the hoarde of Believers standing behind you is sure to turn a few heads. Lastly, not the ideal option, but hey, sink to their (percieved) level. Play a male cheuvinist pig. Given the group's Neutral w/ Evil tendencies, you prolly won't be going around being foul and disgusting about it, but play up this guy slappin the butt of every woman he comes across. Refuse to fight any BBEGirl cause "She's just a woman and not worth your time". Hamming it up never hurt anyone. Then when the night is done, take a step back, start acting normal again and treat it like a game.
Yuushiden 12-04-05, 02:09 PM	Wow...all this sounds strangely familiar to on game I played years ago, and the troubles in the game I'm in now... In the old game, I played a NE Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief (AD&D), and I was hiding my "evilness" pretty well in the group - at least so I thought, because I wasn't acting overly evil, I'd only kill NPCs as the group got into combat, etc. (i.e. I didn't go around assasinating people), nor did I "noticably" steal from anyone (there were a couple times away from the party, where I did my own thing, withouth regards to how it affected the rest of the group). I any event, somehow, someone (I think OOC) got wind that I *might* be evil, and the group turned on me... Sure, I was a bit upset, but (playing in char), I denied all accusations, up to the point where it wasn't going anywhere, then I (still in char), turned that evil shade of disgust, scowled, and berated the party for ousting me...chastizing them for their foolishness, and defiantly stating that they would regret it! They drove me to the ocean, and I had nowhere else to go but in...luckily I was "caught" by sauhaugins (spelling?), and I was able to convince the king - who was amassing an army to strike against the town on shore - that I abhored the local land-lubbers, and that if given the chance, I would bring him the victory he so relished! He accepted me (due to my abilities) as one of his generals, and I lead a mighty force against the town, and my former team-mates. All this went on without the rest of the players knowing I was plotting against them - it was quite exciting! Of course, I did not originally want this, but since they forced it, I had to play my char, and he wanted REVENGE!!! The battle was fierce, and no, I did not win - the town took great casualties, and I was able to take out a couple of the group, but one of them finally got to me and ended my reign of blood-frienzied madness! It was probably one of the best games I have played! My current game, people are at odds with each other (this is a different group than the older game). I've played with this group 4 different game-worlds so far, and the players tend to act the same, even though they create different chars with different alignments. Even though we have talked about the problem OOC, it doesn't seem to get fixed in char...I am now playing a NON-evil rogue, but someone in the group thinks I'm evil. He even questione my alignment IN CHAR (I gotta see how to resolve that), all the while his actions tend to be selfish in nature as well, yet this char insists "I've done nothing wrong" (the char's own words - which has been used in the char's other characters as well). I don't see why players can't find ways that the chars they've created CAN work together with the other chars. Alignment is a grey area, as long as you're not completely opposed (i.e. LG and CE). Rogues have place, even beside Paladins and 'holier than thou' Clerics. Every char has merrits and abilities that add to the parties suvivability...work through the differences...don't play a REALLY STUBBORN, pig-headed char...it's not worth it. Anyways, enough rambling...If you don't think your char could patch things up with the rest of the chars, then perhaps think about exacting (at least a little) revenge upon them, or look at creating a new char, that might better fit in with the rest...or, since you've stated that they seem non-cohesive, perhaps an authoritative char...perhaps the DM can see the benefit of a new char who can come in and take control/leadership of the group, and guid them in their challenges??? DM's that accept a lot of diversity, but don't take actions when that diversity breaks the cohesion of the group, is a ridiculous DM. The DM's job is to monitor the group, setup the aventure scenarios, let the players make choices, etc., but also help them when they are either totally misguided, or falling apart. Heck, it's a game, if you want it to be reality, watch some (so called) reality TV (or get a job - LOL). I hope it works out...good luck!
MSW 12-10-05, 06:39 PM	Can I ask where you sit at the gaming table? The reason I ask is that as an experiment, I've purposely tried mixing up where I sit at the table and see how it changes in game interactions. For example, sit close to the DM, it's easier to get the DMs attention. Sit farther away, it's easier to get the other PCs attention. So as your own experiment, try changing where you are physically located during the game. It truly can change the party dynamics. If anyone asks why you aren't sitting in your 'normal' seat, just say "I don't want to talk about it..." and give your DM a side ways look. Instant player rapport!
LadyAthena 09-20-06, 06:07 PM	Some interesting comments on this problem. I've gone back through and read the thread beginning to end after it's been quiet for a while. I find it interesting that someone commented, "...if the game is something he loves, you might leave him to it, and excuse yourself. It's no use playing if it makes you unhappy." Whether it was meant to be or not, it was a very sexist comment. In the end, the group was just not able to work together and I happened to be the target of that frustration for a while. Eventually, a certain player left the game and play was much better after that. Thanks for everybodies' suggestions!
Nickpire 09-21-06, 12:53 PM	Glad everything worked out well in the end for you.
Always-Late 09-21-06, 06:49 PM	I've gone back through and read the thread beginning to end after it's been quiet for a while. I find it interesting that someone commented, "...if the game is something he loves, you might leave him to it, and excuse yourself. It's no use playing if it makes you unhappy." Whether it was meant to be or not, it was a very sexist comment.How? I can see the same comment being said between two friends.
LadyAthena 09-21-06, 07:02 PM	It implies that my husband, the man, is the one who has the true love of the game and is the one that should be there because he loves it; I should "just leave him to it"?
Lord_Varos 09-21-06, 07:36 PM	Yeah, I can see how sexist that is. It implies that my wife, the woman, is the one who has the true love of the game and is the one that should be there because [i]she[/] loves it; I should "just leave her to it"? If you were the man, and he were the woman, the comment would still have exactly the same meaning and application, except that you wouldn't be calling it sexist. But if a man said the above quote, you would probably call him out as being domineering and sexist, saying that he should not require himself to have all the fun and control what she does. You're being too sexist. Try not to associate men with their gender role of being the discriminating pig. My closing comment felt really wierd and awkward, so I changed it. Here's its original form: You're so sexist, LadyAthena, I just don't know what to do with you.
pres_man 09-21-06, 08:31 PM	It implies that my husband, the man, is the one who has the true love of the game and is the one that should be there because he loves it; I should "just leave him to it"? Sorry the comment was not sexist in the least. Let's look at the situation. You are the one complaining about the game, not your husband. Which of the two of you then should we assume was having less fun in the game? Nobody was talking about who loves "gaming" in general more, or D&D more, but who was having more fun (loving it) in this particular game? As the bard said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Lord_Varos 09-21-06, 09:16 PM	Hah, pres man, on a D&D forum, I think you should be more specific on the "the bard" quotes. The extraordinary majority of the readers aren't sharp enough to know what you're talking about, judging from many of the posts I've read.
LadyAthena 09-21-06, 11:03 PM	Maybe I'm being too sensitive about being a female gamer, and perhaps the men are being too sensitive about me thinking something is sexist. A) Just because I think a comment is sexist doesn't mean that I think all men are sexist, chauvanist pigs, including Bruunwald. B) Just because I, a woman, thinks that something a man says is sexist doesn't mean it's not. C) Just because I think that something a man says is sexist doesn't mean that it is :P And just because this thread isn't supposed to be about sexism and gender roles in gaming, I vote we move on (within this thread). But, that does remind me, quite a few people seemed to think the guys might have been threatened/upset/weirded-out by the fact that there was a female gamer in their group. Setting aside my specific situation, what do you guys think about that type of situation? How do you think girl gamers in general are viewed? Not how they should be viewed but how they are actually viewed in the gaming community? In my personal opinion, I think that, once a girl is accepted as a player rather than a tag-along with her bf/husband, she's considered something of a novelty, in most circles.
Lord_Varos 09-21-06, 11:17 PM	I think it's disgusting to treat a female gamer any differently than a male one. If men (I mean the really discriminatory ones) won't give intelligent women better jobs, better pay, and equality all-around, the best they can do is let them share similar entertainment without being shunned. Half of my group were females until another male was invited - without permission - by one of my players. The males tended to be better at playing in-character, but the females were much more thoughtful and insightful. By the way, I hate it when people use the word "chauvinist" when discussion gender issues. The word has, at best, a peripheral application to the argument. No, a peripherally peripheral application. Indirectly. Sort of.
MistWolf 09-21-06, 11:23 PM	I like women players in my games. They bring an insight to problems that are unique to the ladies. One of the best games I ever GMed was with an all female group playing Twilight 2000, which is a post apocolyptic military game. They handled a situtuation with subtlety and flair that most men would have handled with blazing guns and copious amounts of high explosives. It also gives me an opportunity to flirt shamelessly.....
pres_man 09-22-06, 12:24 AM	About the sexism comment. I believe it is an issue of "Don't Cry Wolf", if people call every little thing sexist, then it degrades the situations where real sexism occurs. Now as for how women are seen by the gaming community at large. The feeling I get are they are still a rarity, though more are being seen. Gaming tends to attract a lot of "fanatic" types, people who go out and spend 100's - 1000's of dollars on books, figs, what have you. Women traditionally are a bit more conservative on spending money on hobbies. A big problem with some groups is that many men started playing in middle school, and as we all know, on average, women tend develop emotionally faster than men. So many of these men started playing as emotionally immature boys and unfortunately some of them when they get around their buddies then tend to revert to that mentality. Or worse, a small number were able to cushin themselves from actually developing emotionally by these groups (everybody else is dumb!) and thus have never developed real social skills. Personally I don't really have those issues, one of the groups I run has a female majority and we don't really have any issues with sexuality or gender or sex.
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-22-06, 12:30 AM	First, it's actually only two people who are being jerks. One is really nice in real life, but he's become a total jerk about my characters. The other is immature, and, in all actuallity, I guess I shouldn't feel targeted by him because he actually calls everyone else "stupid" and "useless" too. Second, our party is evil with neutral tendencies. Well, I'm sorry, but playing evil characters is just asking for trouble. In D&D, 'evil' basically means 'selfish'. A player who wants to play an evil character, more often than not, is a player who wants to be an a*hole in-game. And a player who wants to be one of those in-game often does so because he is like that out-of-game. The guy who is a jerk about your characters - at a guess you have correclty RP'ed your alignment, and he doesn't like it. It's not only DM's choice, you know. He should not play games with evil characters, for the same reason that I do not: I can't handle it. And the immature jerk should stick to playing WoW online with all the other immature jerks. My 2c.