Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dahil 02-13-04, 12:58 PM	Hello all, This posting has the potential to get me in trouble, but i need to vent, so here goes. In our campaign, (set in Faerun) there is a bit of a problem with guilds. Let me give you the background information. The major problem is the fact that "Only wizards and sorcerers form guilds. They are only for arcane spellcasters." Now, if this was only a storyline issue, i would be ok with that. After all, my cleric has the church. All fine and good. However, the two guilds that the party sorceress has joined have some major advantages. I'll go over what i know, but i don't have a whole lot of details because the sorceress (wisely) isn't talking. The first guild required an entrance fee (i think around a thous gp) and had a requirement that you could scribe scrolls. Now, if you can't that's not a problem. For a fee of 200-400 (guessing) you could attend a one day seminar on how to scribe scrolls and pick it up as a free, bonus feat. Once a part of the guild, you recieve several advantages. The only one i can remember (of about four) is that you could rent magic gear and then return it (80% of your money back if it's in the same condition you got it in). The second guild was a sorcerer only guild. This one had fewer advantages to being in it (like 2-3) but had no entrance fee. However, the main draw is that they know a process that lets a sorcerer lose some experience and add 2-3 spells to their Spells Known list. The xp loss was something along the lines of 4-5 thousand. At this point, i had a problem. I have no issue with a guild being able to break some of the rules, or give it's members perks. But it should be fair. Again, "Only wizards and sorcerers form guilds." Henceforth, only they get freebies. I then said well, what about my church, it's kind of like a guild. Are there any advantages to being a part of the church? My DM thought about it, and later said (under pressure from me) that he would let me get free healing at the church. (I'm a cleric, for crying out loud!) Oh, and the rogue doesn't get a guild either, but he is still too busy learning the rules of the game to argue. These were also the only two guilds in the town. Our sorceress will probably get the opportunity to join more in other towns. So, my question. Does anyone else see a problem with this? Am i the only one that thinks something is messed up here? If you do, do you have any ideas as to what types of things i could suggest as advantages for all the non arcanists out here? Thank you for your input. Ps. I am not complaining about my DM. He's awesome and does a great job. Just a little bit frustrated and need to vent.
Varlis 02-13-04, 03:29 PM	Well, that wasn't such a bad vent. Anyway, yes, this does seem a bit unfair, but think of the sacrifices the sorceress is having to make. What I think is bad is the fact that your church does nothing for you, so yes, I think you should talk to your DM and the player of the sorcoress, and together you will hopefully come up with a better solution. Good luck. :behold: ~V
SilentOne 02-13-04, 06:56 PM	Instead of simply asking you DM to make changes, suggest some of your own. I know whenever my players simply tell me to go, the results often aren't what they want. Some suggestions: You Church sells prayer beads, scrolls, or wands of divine magic. You get something like a 50% discount (variable) Will allow you to buy Ressurection's or Raise dead at a lower price. Free lodgings and equipment. There benefits can apply in any Church of the same god, not just this one. These benefits also apply to Churchs of Gods allied with yours. just some suggestions, try to work out your own "guild" with the DM, instead of just asking him/her to do all the work for you. If any of this doesn't work on Faerun, just ignore it. I don't know the system, i prefer to play in my own constructed world.
Xychotic 02-13-04, 07:16 PM	Guilds do what?!?!? :eek: That's not even right. That's not even close to being right. That's so bad that it's left... Okay, that aside, it's probably time to ask the DM to justify such an obviously imbalancing feature. There are several recourses, one of which is to kill the sorcerer in the night and say it was drow, they need a good killing anyway. All in all, I am most definitely of the belief that your DM had his brain sucked out by a neh thalggu. That sort of :censored: is most definitely something you'd only imagine a novice to commit. Good luck dealing with that...
Dahil 02-14-04, 03:20 PM	Silent One, Perhaps i forgot some information. I have already suggested the discount on items idea. It was rejected by the DM as being too powerful. On the other hand, i do have a 10% discount on potions. I failed to mention it because everyone in the party (including the sorceress) has that same discount. We got it for saving the church's hindquarters from a plague. In short, my being a member of church doesn't affect it at all, so no difference in my mind. Good idea though. Another thing i do get is free lodging. Same thing however. Since everyone in the party has a diety, we can all stay at our respective temples for free. Yes, including the sorceress. So, again, no diff. The thing about buying Ressurection/Raise Dead stuff, it isn't going to happen. Our DM has made it clear that there simply isn't anyone powerful (read high enough level) to even cast those spells. We're gonna have to wait till i'm capable of casting them. It's a good idea, but it's kinda the same as the first idea of a discount. Still, i greatly appreciate your ideas, thank you.
Grand_Commander13 02-14-04, 03:43 PM	Say "screw them" and make an arcane caster instead of a cleric. When the DM asks why, point out that as the party cleric, you are majorly shafted. Some people don't mind RPing people obviously weaker than everyone else (one of my players is going to be a goblin, and utterly refuses any improvements except the 3.0 bonuses they got to worg riding [ooooh, Mounted Combat and an extra +2 Ride]). I, however, am not one of those people. If I'm gonna RP somebody, they're gonna be at par with everyone else.
Crisisman 02-14-04, 05:56 PM	I'd be interested to know more about the setting. Specifically, where in Faerun is this taking place? There are some regions where certain classes are viewed favorably. I can think of a couple where arcane casters specifically have a certain amount of inherent prestige. As for Rogues and thieves guilds, they definitely exist in Faerun, but there are areas where civil authority is strong enough to prevent them from forming. So, where on Faerun are you?
SilentOne 02-14-04, 06:26 PM	Maybe instead of discounts, just be able to buy special "cleric only" items from the church. it'd have a similar effect to what the Sorc's guild is doing for her. Cleric only = Staff of Healing Wands of Cure X (critical, moderate, light, serious) Wands of Other Spells Available to clerics Periapt of Wisdom +X Necklace of Prayer Beads etc. Things that apply only to clerics and that no one else could (or would want to) use. Other than that, there's also the choice of asking him to nerf the guilds a bit for the Sorc. The ability to get more known spells is ungodly for sorcerors, who have to make choices between spells at different levels. The experience can be gotten back, and unless the DM runs a "there's just enough XP in the game to get you to level 20" type of game, then it's probably very easy to. Also, if she wants to, she can just drag the party back down by continually learning new spells.... overall, learning new spells for sorcs is broken. Solution? No idea, sorry.
Dahil 02-15-04, 12:47 PM	Grand Commander, I have thought about playing a arcane caster instead of a cleric. I have been seriously tempted. However, i think that this is one i'm just going to have to take for the good of the party. Quite simply, the party needs a divine spellcaster. We only have a four PC group, and the group needs a healer. Crisisman, I would love to tell you more about where in Faerun this is taking place, but i can't right now. Our party is currently lost in the God-forsaken cold marshes. Been there for about four months now. I can't recall the name of the last (and only) town we were at. Our DM has a thing about letting the players look at the maps. Basically, we have to find maps in game, and they may or may not be accurate. Right now, we only have one (of the cold marshes) and it's not even very accurate. To answer your other point, yes i know that the last town was in an area that favored arcane casters. And i know that someday our group will be in a pro-divine caster area. However, even when that happens, i know that nothing is going to change because our DM said that only arcane casters did guilds (and i can't convince him about the churches having benefits). Silent One, I am very grateful for your continued ideas. Thank you. Could i politely ask if you have any ideas that do not involve discounts or buying stuff? I have already tried those and it didn't work. So i'm looking for new territory. Thank you though.
Crisisman 02-15-04, 01:54 PM	A check of my FRCS shows no listing of any place called the "cold marshes". There is such a place in another setting. It is described as a very large wasteland where few intelligent creatures live. That would explain why no good maps exist. Perhaps your DM is customizing from various settings to get the little world he wants for your game? If so, then you may end up taking this one for the team. Clerics are natural martyrs anyhow:angel:
rogue_lettuce 02-15-04, 03:08 PM	OK, to Varlis, it's not whether the sacrifices balance the bonuses or not, its the fact that the arcane casters have more options, more choice, than the divine, and rogues, and hell, everybody else! If i had a character that was a rogue and had three options for guilds, and you had a rogue of the same level and only had one option of guild to join, you'd feel short-changed! I think your DM is being highly unfair and biased. Try plotting with the other players to make an all-arcane caster party, and joining every guild you can get your hands on!
Beamup 02-15-04, 03:32 PM	Originally posted by Dahil For a fee of 200-400 (guessing) you could attend a one day seminar on how to scribe scrolls and pick it up as a free, bonus feat. Once a part of the guild, you recieve several advantages. The only one i can remember (of about four) is that you could rent magic gear and then return it (80% of your money back if it's in the same condition you got it in). The second guild was a sorcerer only guild. This one had fewer advantages to being in it (like 2-3) but had no entrance fee. However, the main draw is that they know a process that lets a sorcerer lose some experience and add 2-3 spells to their Spells Known list. The xp loss was something along the lines of 4-5 thousand. Ps. I am not complaining about my DM. He's awesome and does a great job. Just a little bit frustrated and need to vent. These first two paragraphs are, IMO, totally incompatible with your last statement. Basically, your DM has decided to uberize the sorcerer in a totally unbalanced and potentially gamebreaking way, without giving the other characters anything even a fraction as good. This situation is totally inappropriate, and no decent DM should allow something like this to happen (much less do it of his own accord!) Personally, I have to wonder... is the party sorceress played by a woman? If so, are she and the DM dating/married? There's some serious favoritism going on here, so it seems kinda suspicious.
SilentOne 02-15-04, 05:38 PM	Non discount/buying this eh? Hm There's always the option of getting different prestige classes through the guild that you couldn't otherwise get....and i know most of the ones in the supplemental books are very overpowered. you might want to pick up Defenders of the Faith book (a guidebook to clerics and paladins). it'll give you a nice start, and will probably have some guilds already in it that you could ask him to put in. i know they have those in Tome and Blood, and Song and Silence. Another thing would be to ask for something similar to what the sorceress gets, that being extra domain spells per day. Instead of picking between the two domains one for each level, get both. Or get the maximum domains for the deity.....and still have max domain spells/day. here's a feat type thing that would write it all out Maximize Domain Prerequisite: Cleric level 1+ Benefits: You gain the ability to access the domain spells of every domain that your deity offers. Furthermore, when preparing spells, you can prepare one spell from each level of every domain you have access to. Normal: Clerics can only choose two of the domains of their deity, and can onyl prepare one domain spell per level, needing to choose between the two available. Or something to that end. the Dm gave something similar to the sorceress, so it seems reasonable to give it to you. The only thing the rogue needs to be balenced (in the sense of same power level with the rest of you) is the feat Quicker-than-the-Eye, from Song and Silence. basically, roll bluff, against their spot, if they fail, they lose Dex bonus to AC (meaning sneak attack.) it allows the rogue to dish out fireball like damage every turn. hope this helps.
edgelett 02-15-04, 06:23 PM	Long story short, Your DM is a tool. Others have posted possible solutions & ways to discuss it with your DM. If he still won't listen, find another group! And tell him he's a tool!!!
The Master Weaver Is Warped 02-16-04, 08:39 AM	What rational for no other guilds? Guilds are a natural organizing set up. Weaver's guild, bardic college, stonemason's guild, etc. The church would not be a guild in the strick sence of the word, but it is still an exclusive club. Minor evil plan.:D Become bent on converting everyone you meet. Do your godly best to enlarge the membership of your church. When you reach a town again, start knocking on doors. Healing the sick, and other goodly acts. You will make yourself famous. You will attract the attention of a noble benefactor. She's rich, smart and pretty. She'll like to give you things, really nice things. She will talk to the powerful leaders of the church about you. Take the leadership feat, and really develop that following. It will absolutely drive your DM nuts. He can stop some of it, but because it is characture driven actions, he will have to make NPC's respond eventually. It won't increase your actual power per the rules and casting and such, but it should have quite an effect on the game world.