Gulp... Need a new direction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gulp... Need a new direction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maydeen
10-19-07, 09:47 AM Alright.... I'm still a little upset about this, but it's done and there's nothing I can do about it.

I started a wizard from 1st level and my entire goal with this guy was to become a loremaster. I had stated this to the group (dm included) a number of times. Well we just advanced to 6th level and as I was leveling my character up, I mentioned that I only had 2 more levels to go before I became loremaster and then I found out from my DM that Loremasters were not alowed in this campaign..(he's trying to be secrative with knowledge...blah blah blah). We got into the argument of why he didn't tell me this before KNOWING that I was going that direction, whatever. The argument is over, I lost it...I don't really care right now.

However...here's my problem. I took the HUGE number of requirements for Loremaster (3 mm/ic feats, skillfocus (knowledge arcana) 2 different knowledge skills maxed out, 7 divination spells(I actually specialized in diviner just for the hell of it)). I've been playing my character to be a Loremaster...now that's all up in smoke.

Does anybody have any ideas as to what I could possibly do with my character now? Here are my feats: Skillfocus knowledge arcana, craft wonderous, craft magic arms and armor, still spell,(whatever I take for 6th level feat). Please help me... my character is directionless right now and I'm just mentally drained. I need to do something to liven him up before I get bored with him (our dm isn't allowing new characters in the campaign...even if you die, you must get raised)
Lord_Cronos
10-19-07, 10:46 AM Well If it was me I wouldn't play in the game anymore ( I would give my life for a party member then refuse to come back.)
And you are in my opinion justifiably upset. I mean you gave the DM plenty of notice about what you wanted to do with your character. If he didn't want that Prc in the game he should have told you well in advance. what he or she did was just make the game unfun... which you shouldn't ever do.. not like he did anyway.
DrMorganes
10-19-07, 11:24 AM First of all, if the DM is "trying to be secretive with knowledge", then a Loremaster fits right smack into that perfectly! The class exists to deal with "secretive knowledge". Too bad your DM is too thick to see that...

Incidentally, this is exactly why I encourage every one of my players to discuss character concepts with me before the game starts.

The next thing I would try for is a retcon of your character. You were up-front about your character concept, and the DM allowed SIX LEVELS of this development before deciding - seemingly at random - that, oops, Loremasters don't exist in this game. I've DMed for ages, and there have been times I've failed a DC 5 Spot / Sense Motive Check and neglected to tell a player some important bit of information at character generation. When that happens, I allow the player to redo as much or as little of his PC as he would like. It's the least I can do for screwing up on something major. In my opinion your DM owes you that much, at least.

Failing that, let's see what you have to work with that's salvageable:

Diviner specialist wizard. As specialists go, this is actually one of your better choices. You have only a single prohibited school (which one, by the way?) and a host of nifty spells you can prepare in your specialist slots. See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Locate Object, Identify, various detection-type spells, True Strike are all available to you at your level.
You have two item creation feats that are highly useful to the party at large: Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms & Armor. CWI is arguably the most useful of the two. Feel free to use these.
Spell selection. You're still a wizard! You can learn as many spells as you can get your hands on. It's not like you're a sorcerer and are stuck with a handful of spells known. OK, so you know 7 divinations. You have to prepare at least one every day; use 'em! What else do you have in your spellbook(s)?
Skills. You have 2 knowledge skills at max rank. I'm guessing one is Knowledge (Arcana), and you have a +3 bonus to that one. This is not wasted. Odds are your other is Knowledge (The Planes). Each of these are good choices for wizards to keep maxed, regardless of specialization (or lack thereof). I'm guessing you have at least 4 more skill points per level to spend (2 from your class, at least 2 from your INT bonus). What are your current skills?

Honestly, this is aggravating, but not a total loss. So you can't be a Loremaster. You can still be a seeker of secrets, and there are LOTS of secrets in any game world. Some may be knowledge, others may be forgotten spells, hidden items, lost artifacts... get the idea?

That said, however, I think some additional information would be helpful. The rest of your character sheet is a good place to start, some notes on your PC's personality, what books you're (not) allowed to use, and where the game seems to be going right now would all help us offer truly useful suggestions for re-defining your character.
aikimiller
10-19-07, 01:33 PM yeah, ask for a rebuild. If your DM doesn't allow that, you have two options. Either suck it up and deal with it (you're a wizard, in the next few levels you start to get spells that are more powerful than some entire characters. What else do you really need?), or roll up a different character, this time asking specificly what PrCs are avaliable.
Shadowhowler
10-19-07, 03:28 PM I belive DrMorganes said it beautifuly...

It sucks that your DM decided to wait until now to tell you he was not going to allow the PrC you wanted. I think thats VERY bad DMing.

However, if the game itself is fun and you like the other players... this does NOT have to kill your fun, not in the least.

As he said, Diviner is an excelent way to go with a wizard.... and there are plenty of other PrC's you could eventualy take and still focus on the idea of being a man of great knowledge. Hell, with a Wizard, you don't even need a PrC... you can just make effective spell and magic item choices and still be a huge contributer, if not THE bigest contributer to your party.

Your characters persona... the important part of your character... remains unchanged by the mechanics of weather you PrC or not.f you like your character... you should not become board becuase you don't have the PrC... a Wizard will NEVER be useless... a Diviner even more so, IMO.
Phrennzy
10-19-07, 04:09 PM Yep, I'd just sit down with the DM, and ask him if you can redo your skills & feat selections since you made them while under the impression that you could be a loremaster.

You have nothing to lose.

If he says no, then just keep playing as the diviner. Loremaster, schmoremaster.
Necroramo
10-20-07, 12:46 AM That was so mean of the DM
Ninja_Ferret
10-20-07, 12:57 AM If you really hate your character and your DM doesnt let you reroll one right there. Next session "lose" your character sheet somewhere. But yeah That is retarded. He should have it set down of what classes and PrC are banned from the game.
Krusk
10-20-07, 01:51 AM Dont quit the game or anthing over this, yeah it sort of sucks but oh well. -so long as your enjoying the rest of the game- MY suggestions are to do one of two things.

First ask the DM to repick those feats and skill points you took just to get into loremaster and put them into something else because he just sprung this on you.

If that doesn't work, try going ino master specialist in complete mage. your a diviner specialist, so youve got that requirement. For your 6th level feat take spell focus (divination) and you should meet the requirements. The class gets some interesting abilities depending on what you specalize in and can play a very simmilar position to loremaster if you are a diviner. Similar enough that if he let you play a diviner in a "knowledge is secret" campaign he should let you do this.
CCS
10-20-07, 02:39 AM First of all, if the DM is "trying to be secretive with knowledge", then a Loremaster fits right smack into that perfectly! The class exists to deal with "secretive knowledge". Too bad your DM is too thick to see that...

Incidentally, this is exactly why I encourage every one of my players to discuss character concepts with me before the game starts.

The next thing I would try for is a retcon of your character. You were up-front about your character concept, and the DM allowed SIX LEVELS of this development before deciding - seemingly at random - that, oops, Loremasters don't exist in this game. I've DMed for ages, and there have been times I've failed a DC 5 Spot / Sense Motive Check and neglected to tell a player some important bit of information at character generation. When that happens, I allow the player to redo as much or as little of his PC as he would like. It's the least I can do for screwing up on something major. In my opinion your DM owes you that much, at least.

Failing that, let's see what you have to work with that's salvageable:

Diviner specialist wizard. As specialists go, this is actually one of your better choices. You have only a single prohibited school (which one, by the way?) and a host of nifty spells you can prepare in your specialist slots. See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Locate Object, Identify, various detection-type spells, True Strike are all available to you at your level.
You have two item creation feats that are highly useful to the party at large: Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms & Armor. CWI is arguably the most useful of the two. Feel free to use these.
Spell selection. You're still a wizard! You can learn as many spells as you can get your hands on. It's not like you're a sorcerer and are stuck with a handful of spells known. OK, so you know 7 divinations. You have to prepare at least one every day; use 'em! What else do you have in your spellbook(s)?
Skills. You have 2 knowledge skills at max rank. I'm guessing one is Knowledge (Arcana), and you have a +3 bonus to that one. This is not wasted. Odds are your other is Knowledge (The Planes). Each of these are good choices for wizards to keep maxed, regardless of specialization (or lack thereof). I'm guessing you have at least 4 more skill points per level to spend (2 from your class, at least 2 from your INT bonus). What are your current skills?

Honestly, this is aggravating, but not a total loss. So you can't be a Loremaster. You can still be a seeker of secrets, and there are LOTS of secrets in any game world. Some may be knowledge, others may be forgotten spells, hidden items, lost artifacts... get the idea?

That said, however, I think some additional information would be helpful. The rest of your character sheet is a good place to start, some notes on your PC's personality, what books you're (not) allowed to use, and where the game seems to be going right now would all help us offer truly useful suggestions for re-defining your character.

I agree. Yes, it sucks that your DM took so long telling you about this important bit of info. In that regard you have my sympathy.
But so what if you can't play a loremaster exactly as depicted by the rules. That doesn't stop you from still playing a loremaster in effect....

Don't ***** & moan about it, don't try and get retconned or re-train your feats/skills, don't quit the game or suicide your character. In short just get on with RPing your character. Just because you know as a player that the rank of loremaster can never be obtained doesn't mean that your character realizes it. If the character were a real person they'd simply continue striving for their goal. Thus they should continue to do so within the game.
Dragonsblood
10-20-07, 04:39 AM I would ask your DM to take a look at the PrC again. Just because it's called a loremaster and has "secret" as a class skill doesn't mean any of his DM secrets are spoiled. Maybe that's all he's afraid of. Loremaster secrets really just give you nifty little mechanical advantages.

Minor tangent: loremaster requires 3 item creation/metamagic. 1st level wizards start with scribe scroll, which is listed as an item creation feat. You had no need to take still spell.
SiuiS
10-20-07, 06:58 AM You can always go with my favorite role-playing stand-by; Become the very first, singular lore-master.

Why? Well, you are already a diviner, so you like learning things. You also would seem to like to hoard what you know instead of spreading it around... So long as you play it out/ham it up, you might be able to talk your DM into it (although I would suggest something like pushing back some class features a few levels or having them "unlock" after completing a thematic quest- Discover the existence of an old, forgotten god of knowledge/one of his libraries/ his main temple, before gettying any of your 'secret' class features. For lore, have the DM keep track of every time you roleplay learning something, and add a 'bonus' to an applicable knowledge skill in his notes, up to your limit). A lot of work, but fun for both of you, especiialy if you point out that using feats or other prestige classes, you can get the same effects of the 6th and 10th level of Loremaster, with much less pain on your part, and probably more on his.
metalmayhem80110
10-20-07, 08:41 AM I would do something different. I would just ask my DM "Can I change a couple feats and my specialization now that I know that my build doesn't work?"

Than I'd go necromancer :D Over the top necromancer, using mental spells to dominate the party soon, or motivate them to your side. I'm normally not about changing the campaign like this, but if the DM did that to me.... I would do everything within my power to "mess up his build (or campaign)" like he messed up my build.
Etarnon
11-10-07, 04:12 PM I would calmly, rationally say "Well the campaign doesn't have any Loremasters. Except this character."

Explain to him that you've worked towards this since the beginning, and have put in time and effort and expect to be rewarded for being a good player.

If he says "No", tell him very calmly in a low, quiet voice, "I can't continue to play a character that has no future in a game where the conditions are set up to frustrate me. I had planned this, and your unwillingness to negotiate a compromise is a dealbreaker. No hard feelings, but I got to go."

Hand him the character sheet, calmly get up and walk off.

Start your own game, that has Loremasters in it.

The deal belongs to the person who can walk away from it.

Good luck, man. It's a power struggle, you vs him. In the end it's his game. His rules, but you can vote with your feet, and start your own.
taradusis
11-10-07, 05:50 PM I've been DMing for quite a while and this is crossing a line.I would start studying up on how to be a DM even if he lets you be a Loremaster.Chances are you're going to find other little quirks of his annoying too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maydeen 10-19-07, 09:47 AM	Alright.... I'm still a little upset about this, but it's done and there's nothing I can do about it. I started a wizard from 1st level and my entire goal with this guy was to become a loremaster. I had stated this to the group (dm included) a number of times. Well we just advanced to 6th level and as I was leveling my character up, I mentioned that I only had 2 more levels to go before I became loremaster and then I found out from my DM that Loremasters were not alowed in this campaign..(he's trying to be secrative with knowledge...blah blah blah). We got into the argument of why he didn't tell me this before KNOWING that I was going that direction, whatever. The argument is over, I lost it...I don't really care right now. However...here's my problem. I took the HUGE number of requirements for Loremaster (3 mm/ic feats, skillfocus (knowledge arcana) 2 different knowledge skills maxed out, 7 divination spells(I actually specialized in diviner just for the hell of it)). I've been playing my character to be a Loremaster...now that's all up in smoke. Does anybody have any ideas as to what I could possibly do with my character now? Here are my feats: Skillfocus knowledge arcana, craft wonderous, craft magic arms and armor, still spell,(whatever I take for 6th level feat). Please help me... my character is directionless right now and I'm just mentally drained. I need to do something to liven him up before I get bored with him (our dm isn't allowing new characters in the campaign...even if you die, you must get raised)
Lord_Cronos 10-19-07, 10:46 AM	Well If it was me I wouldn't play in the game anymore ( I would give my life for a party member then refuse to come back.) And you are in my opinion justifiably upset. I mean you gave the DM plenty of notice about what you wanted to do with your character. If he didn't want that Prc in the game he should have told you well in advance. what he or she did was just make the game unfun... which you shouldn't ever do.. not like he did anyway.
DrMorganes 10-19-07, 11:24 AM	First of all, if the DM is "trying to be secretive with knowledge", then a Loremaster fits right smack into that perfectly! The class exists to deal with "secretive knowledge". Too bad your DM is too thick to see that... Incidentally, this is exactly why I encourage every one of my players to discuss character concepts with me before the game starts. The next thing I would try for is a retcon of your character. You were up-front about your character concept, and the DM allowed SIX LEVELS of this development before deciding - seemingly at random - that, oops, Loremasters don't exist in this game. I've DMed for ages, and there have been times I've failed a DC 5 Spot / Sense Motive Check and neglected to tell a player some important bit of information at character generation. When that happens, I allow the player to redo as much or as little of his PC as he would like. It's the least I can do for screwing up on something major. In my opinion your DM owes you that much, at least. Failing that, let's see what you have to work with that's salvageable: Diviner specialist wizard. As specialists go, this is actually one of your better choices. You have only a single prohibited school (which one, by the way?) and a host of nifty spells you can prepare in your specialist slots. See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Locate Object, Identify, various detection-type spells, True Strike are all available to you at your level. You have two item creation feats that are highly useful to the party at large: Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms & Armor. CWI is arguably the most useful of the two. Feel free to use these. Spell selection. You're still a wizard! You can learn as many spells as you can get your hands on. It's not like you're a sorcerer and are stuck with a handful of spells known. OK, so you know 7 divinations. You have to prepare at least one every day; use 'em! What else do you have in your spellbook(s)? Skills. You have 2 knowledge skills at max rank. I'm guessing one is Knowledge (Arcana), and you have a +3 bonus to that one. This is not wasted. Odds are your other is Knowledge (The Planes). Each of these are good choices for wizards to keep maxed, regardless of specialization (or lack thereof). I'm guessing you have at least 4 more skill points per level to spend (2 from your class, at least 2 from your INT bonus). What are your current skills? Honestly, this is aggravating, but not a total loss. So you can't be a Loremaster. You can still be a seeker of secrets, and there are LOTS of secrets in any game world. Some may be knowledge, others may be forgotten spells, hidden items, lost artifacts... get the idea? That said, however, I think some additional information would be helpful. The rest of your character sheet is a good place to start, some notes on your PC's personality, what books you're (not) allowed to use, and where the game seems to be going right now would all help us offer truly useful suggestions for re-defining your character.
aikimiller 10-19-07, 01:33 PM	yeah, ask for a rebuild. If your DM doesn't allow that, you have two options. Either suck it up and deal with it (you're a wizard, in the next few levels you start to get spells that are more powerful than some entire characters. What else do you really need?), or roll up a different character, this time asking specificly what PrCs are avaliable.
Shadowhowler 10-19-07, 03:28 PM	I belive DrMorganes said it beautifuly... It sucks that your DM decided to wait until now to tell you he was not going to allow the PrC you wanted. I think thats VERY bad DMing. However, if the game itself is fun and you like the other players... this does NOT have to kill your fun, not in the least. As he said, Diviner is an excelent way to go with a wizard.... and there are plenty of other PrC's you could eventualy take and still focus on the idea of being a man of great knowledge. Hell, with a Wizard, you don't even need a PrC... you can just make effective spell and magic item choices and still be a huge contributer, if not THE bigest contributer to your party. Your characters persona... the important part of your character... remains unchanged by the mechanics of weather you PrC or not.f you like your character... you should not become board becuase you don't have the PrC... a Wizard will NEVER be useless... a Diviner even more so, IMO.
Phrennzy 10-19-07, 04:09 PM	Yep, I'd just sit down with the DM, and ask him if you can redo your skills & feat selections since you made them while under the impression that you could be a loremaster. You have nothing to lose. If he says no, then just keep playing as the diviner. Loremaster, schmoremaster.
Necroramo 10-20-07, 12:46 AM	That was so mean of the DM
Ninja_Ferret 10-20-07, 12:57 AM	If you really hate your character and your DM doesnt let you reroll one right there. Next session "lose" your character sheet somewhere. But yeah That is retarded. He should have it set down of what classes and PrC are banned from the game.
Krusk 10-20-07, 01:51 AM	Dont quit the game or anthing over this, yeah it sort of sucks but oh well. -so long as your enjoying the rest of the game- MY suggestions are to do one of two things. First ask the DM to repick those feats and skill points you took just to get into loremaster and put them into something else because he just sprung this on you. If that doesn't work, try going ino master specialist in complete mage. your a diviner specialist, so youve got that requirement. For your 6th level feat take spell focus (divination) and you should meet the requirements. The class gets some interesting abilities depending on what you specalize in and can play a very simmilar position to loremaster if you are a diviner. Similar enough that if he let you play a diviner in a "knowledge is secret" campaign he should let you do this.
CCS 10-20-07, 02:39 AM	First of all, if the DM is "trying to be secretive with knowledge", then a Loremaster fits right smack into that perfectly! The class exists to deal with "secretive knowledge". Too bad your DM is too thick to see that... Incidentally, this is exactly why I encourage every one of my players to discuss character concepts with me before the game starts. The next thing I would try for is a retcon of your character. You were up-front about your character concept, and the DM allowed SIX LEVELS of this development before deciding - seemingly at random - that, oops, Loremasters don't exist in this game. I've DMed for ages, and there have been times I've failed a DC 5 Spot / Sense Motive Check and neglected to tell a player some important bit of information at character generation. When that happens, I allow the player to redo as much or as little of his PC as he would like. It's the least I can do for screwing up on something major. In my opinion your DM owes you that much, at least. Failing that, let's see what you have to work with that's salvageable: Diviner specialist wizard. As specialists go, this is actually one of your better choices. You have only a single prohibited school (which one, by the way?) and a host of nifty spells you can prepare in your specialist slots. See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Locate Object, Identify, various detection-type spells, True Strike are all available to you at your level. You have two item creation feats that are highly useful to the party at large: Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms & Armor. CWI is arguably the most useful of the two. Feel free to use these. Spell selection. You're still a wizard! You can learn as many spells as you can get your hands on. It's not like you're a sorcerer and are stuck with a handful of spells known. OK, so you know 7 divinations. You have to prepare at least one every day; use 'em! What else do you have in your spellbook(s)? Skills. You have 2 knowledge skills at max rank. I'm guessing one is Knowledge (Arcana), and you have a +3 bonus to that one. This is not wasted. Odds are your other is Knowledge (The Planes). Each of these are good choices for wizards to keep maxed, regardless of specialization (or lack thereof). I'm guessing you have at least 4 more skill points per level to spend (2 from your class, at least 2 from your INT bonus). What are your current skills? Honestly, this is aggravating, but not a total loss. So you can't be a Loremaster. You can still be a seeker of secrets, and there are LOTS of secrets in any game world. Some may be knowledge, others may be forgotten spells, hidden items, lost artifacts... get the idea? That said, however, I think some additional information would be helpful. The rest of your character sheet is a good place to start, some notes on your PC's personality, what books you're (not) allowed to use, and where the game seems to be going right now would all help us offer truly useful suggestions for re-defining your character. I agree. Yes, it sucks that your DM took so long telling you about this important bit of info. In that regard you have my sympathy. But so what if you can't play a loremaster exactly as depicted by the rules. That doesn't stop you from still playing a loremaster in effect.... Don't ***** & moan about it, don't try and get retconned or re-train your feats/skills, don't quit the game or suicide your character. In short just get on with RPing your character. Just because you know as a player that the rank of loremaster can never be obtained doesn't mean that your character realizes it. If the character were a real person they'd simply continue striving for their goal. Thus they should continue to do so within the game.
Dragonsblood 10-20-07, 04:39 AM	I would ask your DM to take a look at the PrC again. Just because it's called a loremaster and has "secret" as a class skill doesn't mean any of his DM secrets are spoiled. Maybe that's all he's afraid of. Loremaster secrets really just give you nifty little mechanical advantages. Minor tangent: loremaster requires 3 item creation/metamagic. 1st level wizards start with scribe scroll, which is listed as an item creation feat. You had no need to take still spell.
SiuiS 10-20-07, 06:58 AM	You can always go with my favorite role-playing stand-by; Become the very first, singular lore-master. Why? Well, you are already a diviner, so you like learning things. You also would seem to like to hoard what you know instead of spreading it around... So long as you play it out/ham it up, you might be able to talk your DM into it (although I would suggest something like pushing back some class features a few levels or having them "unlock" after completing a thematic quest- Discover the existence of an old, forgotten god of knowledge/one of his libraries/ his main temple, before gettying any of your 'secret' class features. For lore, have the DM keep track of every time you roleplay learning something, and add a 'bonus' to an applicable knowledge skill in his notes, up to your limit). A lot of work, but fun for both of you, especiialy if you point out that using feats or other prestige classes, you can get the same effects of the 6th and 10th level of Loremaster, with much less pain on your part, and probably more on his.
metalmayhem80110 10-20-07, 08:41 AM	I would do something different. I would just ask my DM "Can I change a couple feats and my specialization now that I know that my build doesn't work?" Than I'd go necromancer :D Over the top necromancer, using mental spells to dominate the party soon, or motivate them to your side. I'm normally not about changing the campaign like this, but if the DM did that to me.... I would do everything within my power to "mess up his build (or campaign)" like he messed up my build.
Etarnon 11-10-07, 04:12 PM	I would calmly, rationally say "Well the campaign doesn't have any Loremasters. Except this character." Explain to him that you've worked towards this since the beginning, and have put in time and effort and expect to be rewarded for being a good player. If he says "No", tell him very calmly in a low, quiet voice, "I can't continue to play a character that has no future in a game where the conditions are set up to frustrate me. I had planned this, and your unwillingness to negotiate a compromise is a dealbreaker. No hard feelings, but I got to go." Hand him the character sheet, calmly get up and walk off. Start your own game, that has Loremasters in it. The deal belongs to the person who can walk away from it. Good luck, man. It's a power struggle, you vs him. In the end it's his game. His rules, but you can vote with your feet, and start your own.
taradusis 11-10-07, 05:50 PM	I've been DMing for quite a while and this is crossing a line.I would start studying up on how to be a DM even if he lets you be a Loremaster.Chances are you're going to find other little quirks of his annoying too.