Gunpowder and muskets [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gunpowder and muskets [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blooddemon
12-16-04, 09:09 PM I have a character with some craft(alchemy) skills and stuff, I was wondering if you had an idea about going through the process of making gunpowder and guns, maybe for the first time, I don't want it to be 1 check.. "hey I have a changun." I want it a fun, time consuming process.

PSST, I'm an artificer from Eberron if that helps any.
Cymraegmorgan
12-16-04, 09:27 PM Aside from alchemy, you will need some blacksmithing skills. Gunpowder and the gun itself should be only middling difficult. The real fun is using the alchemy skill to craft wickedly unique ammo, like alchemic balls that deal acid damage or fire damage.
Razoreface
12-16-04, 10:30 PM And whichever knowledge skill might cover physics ;)

Black powder weapons and gunpowder are really pretty basic.. if you're exceptionally curious you can find all kinds of things about it online. A black powder rifle can be made in pretty short time, most of it is really basic forging and then attaching it to a carved wood stock.

The GP cost of guns does make it so there are several checks for it, and it takes a rather disproportionate amount of time to craft them. Balance issues.
jasper
12-17-04, 08:26 AM How about a series of checks.
Know gun powder is possible dc 40. Every week/ 1k gp spend reduces the dc.
After that Dc 30 dropping by one each time you come up with mix till you get the proper mixture.
after that dc 30 to build the rifle to make sure it doesn't blow up reducing it by one or two for each experiment.
This way the process can be spread over the game year or longer
Shazarn
12-17-04, 06:05 PM Adding on to what jasper said you could add a point or two for every improvment to it, (rifiling, better range, etc.)
blooddemon
12-23-04, 10:00 AM I just thought it would be cool for my goblin artificer to have a musket-type weapon. I would like it to be somewhat like a shot gun but with three barrels that rotate once every pump, and have a simple rocket launcher too. If you were a DM what would be the ruling on this if you allowed it.

I would say it would take about 3000 gp and a dc ~30 alchemy check. Then a ~30 + ~4 for every extra barrel on the rifle. the cocking of the gun is a free action, but reloading takes ~2 rounds.

other added bonuses would be, like the previous poster said, rifling in the barrel, cases for rounds, clips and semi automatic modes. each one would be like adding a +1 enchantment bonus on the weapon with all normal rules. Most of the ranged weapon abilities would still apply.

Well have to get back to school, i will talk about the rocket launcer later. :D
Lincoln Hills
12-23-04, 02:23 PM 1. I fear there were many, many highly inefficient gunpowder weapons before the 'musket' was perfected. And unless the DM introduces a society in which the first few steps in gunnery (high-grade steel, knowledge of a suitable explosive, and - most important - understanding of some of the principles that cause a gun to explode instead of firing a missile), I suggest you abandon the effort. Or be prepared to explain to all and sundry why you have shrapnel sticking out of an eye-socket. ("Why, that's part of Model #17. It had more bugs than most, I'm afraid.")

2. Multiple-barrel rotation: Rotating barrels make no sense unless you're using a breech-loading weapon, which is centuries ahead of the technology you'd be using. A three-barrelled matchlock (by which I mean, a gun which uses a fuse for each barrel) would probably do the job you have in mind. It would probably also weigh a ton, so I hope your goblin has a belt of giant strength.

3. On the plus side, your blunderbuss (primitive shotgun) notion is a lot easier to engineer than an accurate matchlock.

4. Rocket launcher: Weird though this may sound, a rocket is a lot easier to develop than a gun - but it's not an especially devastating weapon by itself. The Chinese had - get this - rocket-assisted arrows but found them too inaccurate and prone to spontaneous combustion (gee, I wonder why.) You might want to follow up on the earlier suggestion of giving the thing a small 'payload' - alchemist's fire, holy water, etc. But be prepared to miss. A lot.

As far as skills, you'd have to use Craft (weaponsmithing) at an appropriate penalty determined by the DM, since you're trying to use a Craft skill which you don't have (in fact, nobody has.) Are you sure you don't want to create an orbital death ray satellite instead? It's about equally possible. :)

Abandon all thought of 'clips' and 'rifling' and 'semi-automatic mode' - unless you count lighting all three fuses on the same round (and flying back 1d4x5 feet, heh.) Reload time should be measured in minutes.

In short, while I know you like the image, you're probably better off trying to advance crossbow technology rather than dabbling in guns. EWP: repeating crossbow and Craft (bowyer) will stand you in good stead. You can still dabble in warheads for your quarrels, a rocket-launching tube and all the other techno-gimcrackery you seek: plus you won't be referred to as "Mr. No Eyebrows" by the rest of your group.

(Who died and made this guy an expert anyway?: I've studied archaic guns off and on for years. The most primitive thing I've fired myself is a flintlock, which is still far more advanced than the primitive hand-guns which dominated the centuries of the Renaissance. 40 seconds of reload time for a proficient user. Slower even than a crossbow - and totally unreliable in rain or even heavy fog.)
DrMorganes
12-23-04, 05:41 PM The old Spelljammer rules had something they called "smokepowder" which functioned in a similar manner to gunpowder, but with slightly different properties to make it a tad more reliable under adventuring conditions. I never got around to actually purchasing the Spelljammer boxed set, and so don't have access to the specific material...

On a slightly more helpful note, as a DM I would probably allow an artificer in an Eberron campaign to design and produce a gunpowder-like substance, a firearm of some sort, and ammunition to go along with it. (Don't even ask in a non-Eberron setting!) However, the initial design would be relatively poor in comparison to standard fantasy missile weapons in nearly all respects. As you pour skill points into the appropriate skills, however, I'd allow you to make improvements to said weapons (or design new ones). If you've ever played the video game Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, the Technologist paths of Firearms and Explosives are sort of what I have in mind...
Draco Strang
12-24-04, 01:58 AM Disallow gunpowder man...too many headaches.
Derren S.
12-24-04, 07:39 AM In FR, muskets already exist. (Using smokepoweder which is magically created gunpowder). But generally those weapons are inferior to bows and crossbows.
Vanigo
12-24-04, 03:29 PM As with most inventions, the difficulty is not in creating the stuff, it's in figuring out how to create it. Making gunpowder isn't very hard. Inventing gunpowder... is. Making a muzzle-loading flintlock rifle isn't too hard. Inventing one is. Making a ballistic missile... is pretty tough. Inventing one is worse.
There are no rules or guidelines for inventing stuff, either. Sure, lots of players can tell you the ingredients in black powder, but under no circumstances should that mean their characters can make the stuff. You could simply have it be practically impossible Craft checks, but that seems wrong; Craft is more for making things you already know how to make.
blooddemon
12-24-04, 03:43 PM hmm reserch high tensile steel, physics, and alchemy to create a very simple weapon at first w/ a 40% chance of backfiring for the first weapon created (thats the problem w/gunpowder.) BTW, I'm trying to make my goblin a little Warcaft-esque, somewhat like the goblin artificer in TFT.

thanks for all the input everyone. I've started to look into archaic rifles and such and i've come to a conclusion, trial and error would be my best bet, anyways, you should take into small account that heroes are somewhat more powerful than the average person, so it should come faster to them.

I've talked with my DM and he said he would allow it, but we will talk about that when the time comes. until then, explosive tipped arrows here i come. he agreed that the rocket launcer would be the first thing for me to make (think the first computer to your laptop type situation). If I can get my UA back from my friend, I could make it a multi check task that will take a very, very, very long time.

If anyone wants to sit down and think of the time and checks required that follow, to some effect the progression the gun has taken over the past few millenia that would be so greatly apprecieated.
Suicidal Cavalry Attack
12-24-04, 04:01 PM Early gunpowder weapons were known for exploding. Bad casting of barrels, inefficient primers, clogged barrels, overuse of powder. There should be a check on the first one developed every time it is used to see if it "cooks off."
blooddemon
12-24-04, 10:05 PM hmm so a quick UMD check each reload? I just think the Idea of a goblin with a blunderbus(sp?) is so funny.
Vanigo
12-24-04, 10:50 PM Definetly not UMD, since it is in no shape, way, or form a magical device. I'd say Disable Device, since that applies to mechanical tomfoolery besides just disabling devices.
blooddemon
12-25-04, 02:53 PM I just thought of it off the top of my head, but i think my DM will make gunpowder magical in nature for balance issues (grenade everyone get down!) I think he's going to have it so that I spend X ammount of gp for each damage die I do with the weapon and how many dice and stuff, its hard to explain.
Vaelan
12-26-04, 01:23 AM If your DM doesn't want guns in his campaign, the following statement may not be wise:

"I want to play with a bunch of highly volatile, explosive chemicals and/or substances in an attempt to radically shift the principles of your game in an undesirable manner."

Operative terms being highly volatile and explosive. In other words, ask your DM.
evangelion1010
12-26-04, 11:37 PM You could fool around with the idea, but mundane guns would be ineffective.

You are an artificer - mix magic with alchemy, as they surely would have done. More effective than a real solution to a gun would be a miniturized fire spell that is use activated (triger). Then you don't need to worry so much about re-loading or smoke...or use in damp conditions - just dropping in an iron ball.

Add a fabricate spell or something, and you could nearly make an automatic weapon, if not for overheating.
blooddemon
12-28-04, 03:04 PM well I had a thought, but I don't know if it would work right. first of all a question, can you use rods on wands?

If you can then have a wand of magic missile quickened or twined with a rod and do the other one with your one artificer ability that allows you to use metamagic feats by expending more charges. make the wand at about a CL 7; that would be 3 (don't have my books as you can tell) bolts twinned and quickened so that would be 12 missiles for about 9 charges (if you have a wand) then when your wand runs out of beefs, have something that you can switch it out with somewhat like a clip. have the wand in a case with the rod touching it.
Have a trigger and boom smg, get dual wand wielder from complete arcane and dual some smgs. b-e-a-utiful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blooddemon 12-16-04, 09:09 PM	I have a character with some craft(alchemy) skills and stuff, I was wondering if you had an idea about going through the process of making gunpowder and guns, maybe for the first time, I don't want it to be 1 check.. "hey I have a changun." I want it a fun, time consuming process. PSST, I'm an artificer from Eberron if that helps any.
Cymraegmorgan 12-16-04, 09:27 PM	Aside from alchemy, you will need some blacksmithing skills. Gunpowder and the gun itself should be only middling difficult. The real fun is using the alchemy skill to craft wickedly unique ammo, like alchemic balls that deal acid damage or fire damage.
Razoreface 12-16-04, 10:30 PM	And whichever knowledge skill might cover physics ;) Black powder weapons and gunpowder are really pretty basic.. if you're exceptionally curious you can find all kinds of things about it online. A black powder rifle can be made in pretty short time, most of it is really basic forging and then attaching it to a carved wood stock. The GP cost of guns does make it so there are several checks for it, and it takes a rather disproportionate amount of time to craft them. Balance issues.
jasper 12-17-04, 08:26 AM	How about a series of checks. Know gun powder is possible dc 40. Every week/ 1k gp spend reduces the dc. After that Dc 30 dropping by one each time you come up with mix till you get the proper mixture. after that dc 30 to build the rifle to make sure it doesn't blow up reducing it by one or two for each experiment. This way the process can be spread over the game year or longer
Shazarn 12-17-04, 06:05 PM	Adding on to what jasper said you could add a point or two for every improvment to it, (rifiling, better range, etc.)
blooddemon 12-23-04, 10:00 AM	I just thought it would be cool for my goblin artificer to have a musket-type weapon. I would like it to be somewhat like a shot gun but with three barrels that rotate once every pump, and have a simple rocket launcher too. If you were a DM what would be the ruling on this if you allowed it. I would say it would take about 3000 gp and a dc ~30 alchemy check. Then a ~30 + ~4 for every extra barrel on the rifle. the cocking of the gun is a free action, but reloading takes ~2 rounds. other added bonuses would be, like the previous poster said, rifling in the barrel, cases for rounds, clips and semi automatic modes. each one would be like adding a +1 enchantment bonus on the weapon with all normal rules. Most of the ranged weapon abilities would still apply. Well have to get back to school, i will talk about the rocket launcer later. :D
Lincoln Hills 12-23-04, 02:23 PM	1. I fear there were many, many highly inefficient gunpowder weapons before the 'musket' was perfected. And unless the DM introduces a society in which the first few steps in gunnery (high-grade steel, knowledge of a suitable explosive, and - most important - understanding of some of the principles that cause a gun to explode instead of firing a missile), I suggest you abandon the effort. Or be prepared to explain to all and sundry why you have shrapnel sticking out of an eye-socket. ("Why, that's part of Model #17. It had more bugs than most, I'm afraid.") 2. Multiple-barrel rotation: Rotating barrels make no sense unless you're using a breech-loading weapon, which is centuries ahead of the technology you'd be using. A three-barrelled matchlock (by which I mean, a gun which uses a fuse for each barrel) would probably do the job you have in mind. It would probably also weigh a ton, so I hope your goblin has a belt of giant strength. 3. On the plus side, your blunderbuss (primitive shotgun) notion is a lot easier to engineer than an accurate matchlock. 4. Rocket launcher: Weird though this may sound, a rocket is a lot easier to develop than a gun - but it's not an especially devastating weapon by itself. The Chinese had - get this - rocket-assisted arrows but found them too inaccurate and prone to spontaneous combustion (gee, I wonder why.) You might want to follow up on the earlier suggestion of giving the thing a small 'payload' - alchemist's fire, holy water, etc. But be prepared to miss. A lot. As far as skills, you'd have to use Craft (weaponsmithing) at an appropriate penalty determined by the DM, since you're trying to use a Craft skill which you don't have (in fact, nobody has.) Are you sure you don't want to create an orbital death ray satellite instead? It's about equally possible. :) Abandon all thought of 'clips' and 'rifling' and 'semi-automatic mode' - unless you count lighting all three fuses on the same round (and flying back 1d4x5 feet, heh.) Reload time should be measured in minutes. In short, while I know you like the image, you're probably better off trying to advance crossbow technology rather than dabbling in guns. EWP: repeating crossbow and Craft (bowyer) will stand you in good stead. You can still dabble in warheads for your quarrels, a rocket-launching tube and all the other techno-gimcrackery you seek: plus you won't be referred to as "Mr. No Eyebrows" by the rest of your group. (Who died and made this guy an expert anyway?: I've studied archaic guns off and on for years. The most primitive thing I've fired myself is a flintlock, which is still far more advanced than the primitive hand-guns which dominated the centuries of the Renaissance. 40 seconds of reload time for a proficient user. Slower even than a crossbow - and totally unreliable in rain or even heavy fog.)
DrMorganes 12-23-04, 05:41 PM	The old Spelljammer rules had something they called "smokepowder" which functioned in a similar manner to gunpowder, but with slightly different properties to make it a tad more reliable under adventuring conditions. I never got around to actually purchasing the Spelljammer boxed set, and so don't have access to the specific material... On a slightly more helpful note, as a DM I would probably allow an artificer in an Eberron campaign to design and produce a gunpowder-like substance, a firearm of some sort, and ammunition to go along with it. (Don't even ask in a non-Eberron setting!) However, the initial design would be relatively poor in comparison to standard fantasy missile weapons in nearly all respects. As you pour skill points into the appropriate skills, however, I'd allow you to make improvements to said weapons (or design new ones). If you've ever played the video game Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, the Technologist paths of Firearms and Explosives are sort of what I have in mind...
Draco Strang 12-24-04, 01:58 AM	Disallow gunpowder man...too many headaches.
Derren S. 12-24-04, 07:39 AM	In FR, muskets already exist. (Using smokepoweder which is magically created gunpowder). But generally those weapons are inferior to bows and crossbows.
Vanigo 12-24-04, 03:29 PM	As with most inventions, the difficulty is not in creating the stuff, it's in figuring out how to create it. Making gunpowder isn't very hard. Inventing gunpowder... is. Making a muzzle-loading flintlock rifle isn't too hard. Inventing one is. Making a ballistic missile... is pretty tough. Inventing one is worse. There are no rules or guidelines for inventing stuff, either. Sure, lots of players can tell you the ingredients in black powder, but under no circumstances should that mean their characters can make the stuff. You could simply have it be practically impossible Craft checks, but that seems wrong; Craft is more for making things you already know how to make.
blooddemon 12-24-04, 03:43 PM	hmm reserch high tensile steel, physics, and alchemy to create a very simple weapon at first w/ a 40% chance of backfiring for the first weapon created (thats the problem w/gunpowder.) BTW, I'm trying to make my goblin a little Warcaft-esque, somewhat like the goblin artificer in TFT. thanks for all the input everyone. I've started to look into archaic rifles and such and i've come to a conclusion, trial and error would be my best bet, anyways, you should take into small account that heroes are somewhat more powerful than the average person, so it should come faster to them. I've talked with my DM and he said he would allow it, but we will talk about that when the time comes. until then, explosive tipped arrows here i come. he agreed that the rocket launcer would be the first thing for me to make (think the first computer to your laptop type situation). If I can get my UA back from my friend, I could make it a multi check task that will take a very, very, very long time. If anyone wants to sit down and think of the time and checks required that follow, to some effect the progression the gun has taken over the past few millenia that would be so greatly apprecieated.
Suicidal Cavalry Attack 12-24-04, 04:01 PM	Early gunpowder weapons were known for exploding. Bad casting of barrels, inefficient primers, clogged barrels, overuse of powder. There should be a check on the first one developed every time it is used to see if it "cooks off."
blooddemon 12-24-04, 10:05 PM	hmm so a quick UMD check each reload? I just think the Idea of a goblin with a blunderbus(sp?) is so funny.
Vanigo 12-24-04, 10:50 PM	Definetly not UMD, since it is in no shape, way, or form a magical device. I'd say Disable Device, since that applies to mechanical tomfoolery besides just disabling devices.
blooddemon 12-25-04, 02:53 PM	I just thought of it off the top of my head, but i think my DM will make gunpowder magical in nature for balance issues (grenade everyone get down!) I think he's going to have it so that I spend X ammount of gp for each damage die I do with the weapon and how many dice and stuff, its hard to explain.
Vaelan 12-26-04, 01:23 AM	If your DM doesn't want guns in his campaign, the following statement may not be wise: "I want to play with a bunch of highly volatile, explosive chemicals and/or substances in an attempt to radically shift the principles of your game in an undesirable manner." Operative terms being highly volatile and explosive. In other words, ask your DM.
evangelion1010 12-26-04, 11:37 PM	You could fool around with the idea, but mundane guns would be ineffective. You are an artificer - mix magic with alchemy, as they surely would have done. More effective than a real solution to a gun would be a miniturized fire spell that is use activated (triger). Then you don't need to worry so much about re-loading or smoke...or use in damp conditions - just dropping in an iron ball. Add a fabricate spell or something, and you could nearly make an automatic weapon, if not for overheating.
blooddemon 12-28-04, 03:04 PM	well I had a thought, but I don't know if it would work right. first of all a question, can you use rods on wands? If you can then have a wand of magic missile quickened or twined with a rod and do the other one with your one artificer ability that allows you to use metamagic feats by expending more charges. make the wand at about a CL 7; that would be 3 (don't have my books as you can tell) bolts twinned and quickened so that would be 12 missiles for about 9 charges (if you have a wand) then when your wand runs out of beefs, have something that you can switch it out with somewhat like a clip. have the wand in a case with the rod touching it. Have a trigger and boom smg, get dual wand wielder from complete arcane and dual some smgs. b-e-a-utiful.