Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Geek_of_Doom 07-23-07, 08:09 PM	My friend is starting a short (3-5 session) campaign before he goes off to college, where he won't be able to join my regular group's games, as his school is in New Mexico, and we live in Virginia. But he made a post on the forums we created so our group has a place to discuss upcoming games and whatnot. His campaign right now is fairly vague other than that it'll be a lot of urban and that loud, flashy characters are not reccomended, since some of the city may be seedy. None of that is bad to me. I'm perfectly open to a change from the whole matter of "small cities littered around the kingdom, with rural areas in between" But the problem is one of our players expressed interest in playing a female. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents. So the friend, who said he didn't want to play with a woman calmly stated that. I said that I agreed 100%. The person interested in playing a woman responded with: What the [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] is your problem with my desire for self-expression?! If I want to play a girl in [DM's name] campaign, I sure as [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] am going to do it, and you can't stop me. You two would be serious [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] if you didn't play just because of that one reason. So what if I can't think like a girl? I sure as [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] could give it a shot. And another thing: why would you think any of us would even considering approaching the bloated, arbitrary tangents we had in [Our very bad previous DM] game? YOU HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER WHO WE'RE TAKKING ABOUT! THIS IS [Our very bad previous DM],THE LOSER WHO COULDN'T DM TO SAVE HIS LIFE! I calmly replied with: Forgot to mention a point. [Guy wanting to play a girl], I'm not hindering your self-expression. You could play a halfling two-weapon fighter barbarian that insists on only wearing pieces of cabbage for clothing. Actually, please don't. But my point is I'm not stopping you. You're free to. I just choose not to, if possible, play in a game where a man plays a woman. He hasn't replied to that yet, but how should I handle this? All names have been removed to protect those involved
nightside_samurai 07-23-07, 08:22 PM	I honestly feel like you're overreacting at this point. Is it possible that it could devolve into stupid jokes? Heck yeah, but at this point it hasn't. If this person is your friend, why not give him the benefit of the doubt on this occasion and see how it works. You guys could have a ton of fun. You should of course explain your reasons to your friend and maybe make an accord with yourselves and the DM, that if the jokes and such become too much that the player will find a Girdle of Gender Switching and become a male.
Mock26 07-23-07, 08:23 PM	But the problem is one of our players expressed interest in playing a female. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents. So the friend, who said he didn't want to play with a woman calmly stated that. I'm assuming that all of you are basically around 18, which means that you are all adults. No offense, but if none of you are mature enough to play in a game where one man plays a female character, then maybe you aren't mature enough to be playing the game.
obrysii 07-23-07, 08:26 PM	Besides the lack of maturity on his part, I have to agree with him. There is no reason not to accept opposite-gendered characters. Most of my players, as well as myself, have played female characters--I've actually played two. The reason? To further change things--a lot of people find that it is easiest to separate oneself from the fictional world when you are playing something completely different from yourself. In this case, playing a female when you are male, or playing a male when you are female, is an easy way to do so. So in a way, you are hindering him. And there is very little reason behind it--at least nothing that will hold water. What happens when the DM has an NPC of the opposite gender to him/her? Will you throw a fit if that NPC lasts for longer than a few minutes? Or is it somehow acceptable for the DM to have an opposite-gendered character, but not for a player?
Qwicksilver 07-23-07, 08:31 PM	Yeah it mostly just goes to maturity. If your players are not mature enough to handle playing different gendered characters, then it shouldn't be allowed. However, you haven't spoken of any major examples of when this person has acted in an immature fashion, or why he specifically should not play a female character. I am assuming that you are objecting to immature male players playing female characters, not objecting to any player playing an opposite gendered character.
Crimson_Concerto 07-23-07, 08:32 PM	I don't understand the problem. If he wants to play a female character, why not let him? I'm certain he's not the only player in your group to have done it. After all, is every NPC you meet of the same gender as your DM? Really, the only problem here is that you think it's going to get immature. If you don't want to be immature about it, then don't be. He's not ruining the game by playing a female (assuming he's being mature about it, of course, but that goes for any character choise); everybody else is ruining the game by acting so immaturely about a simple character choice. Player can play character of different races and species without being immature, can't they? Why not a different gender? Really, your problem is just immaturity. I'm lucky not to have this problem in my group. Heck, last campaign, two of my straight, male players decided to play a gay, male couple (nothing graphic, of course, because, as I've been saying, they were mature about it). It was actually a very interesting roleplaying hook, and it made the campaign and characters unique. You just have to learn to be mature about such things, and it may seem weird at first, but it's really not that big a deal, and people play characters that are different from them all of the time. That's kind of the point of the game, isn't it?
Geek_of_Doom 07-23-07, 08:34 PM	What happens when the DM has an NPC of the opposite gender to him/her? Will you throw a fit if that NPC lasts for longer than a few minutes? Or is it somehow acceptable for the DM to have an opposite-gendered character, but not for a player? The DM is free to have all the NPCs he wants. Reasoning behind that is that with a PC, we're stuck with him/her the entire game, or until they die. With an NPC, usually it's between 1 and 15 minutes max, and that's not a huge worry to me. For those saying that if we're mature, we can do it. That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party. Like in a campaign where everyone was CG or gooder(is that a word?), and we had a rather religious Paladin of Heronious, he was possesed by a Pit Fiend named Satan. He also didn't happen to bother to mention this, nor ever finish writing his backstory (or at least the devil part) until after the party had formed.
TheScapegoat 07-23-07, 08:34 PM	Honestly did you think people where going to agree with you? You are in the wrong here, so far as you really shouldn't care. But you can do whatever you want and quit the campaign if you wish, its your choice. You are not right however, but that isn't what you asked. How should YOU handle it? Let him play a women and stop showing up. How should someone else handle it? Play the game and just make sure you don't contribute to your fears and tasteless jokes.
trapspringer 07-23-07, 08:36 PM	I'll tell ya' what I think... I think it's your call. Like you said, you aren't infringing upon his right to make his own choices. Heck, you aren't even goin' outa' your way to persecute or inconvenience him, which is better than most people do. I strongly disagree with the notion that you're obligated to do or support anything that makes you uncomfortable. If that something isn't hurtin' anyone and doesn't affect you, then it'd be wrong to harass folks doin' that something, but there isn't any reason you can't just walk away.
Crimson_Concerto 07-23-07, 08:38 PM	That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party.This is going to be a problem REGARDLESS of the gender of the character he plays, you know.
Lyinginbedmon 07-23-07, 08:44 PM	There is absolutely no issue, psychological or otherwise, with a person wanting to seriously play a character of opposite or alternative gender. If anything, it shows that they are willing to take on the roleplaying challenge of doing so. Any tales of guys going "wierd" and playing girls are pure fantasy (Or, in some instances, Black Hands society). As DM, a person may have to play dozens or even hundreds of NPCs of an alternative gender, and I've certainly had a couple PCs give it a good shot. However, none of them are/were homosexual or otherwise, and I certainly am not. That said, it's not inconceivable for a person of such an orientation to do it, but it doesn't change matters at all. Put plainly, the gender of a character is a mere matter of roleplaying, and nothing more.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 08:50 PM	I find it odd that you have no problem with this fellow playing an inherently magical effeminate man with pointy ears and a lifespan that would have him growing up when wigs and hose were high fashion for men, a short hairy man who always seems Scottish despite there being no Scotland in Greyhawk and growing up in an environment where you might not see the sun for years and a lifespan so long that a decade is chump change, or a 2.8-meter tall insect with antennae, four arms, bug eyes, a racial memory and a 20-year lifespan... ...but have a cow when he suggests playing a human with different junk in the trunk. Ooh, so exotic. I think you're overreacting. I'm a man who has played women (not as often as men, and not always very well... but then again, I could say *exactly* the same thing about my male characters!). All it requires is the maturity on your part to handle the role believably, and the maturity on your fellows' parts to take you seriously. (I prefer to game over OpenRPG, using text instead of voice, as my deep, Frenchman voice would belie the fact that I'm playing a small halfling woman in one game... and equally belie the fact that I'm playing an Aussie-accented gnome in my other one.) Incidentally, this is also what the game requires if they're playing something other than human. Which I assume you don't have a problem with.
Count_Chumleigh 07-23-07, 09:01 PM	How should you "handle" it? That's an ... odd choice of words, I think, especially since you probably don't worry about how to "handle" all the female NPCs your (presumably) male DM portrays. I mean, you might, but I doubt you would regularly game with someone who made you that uncomfortable. Even more especially since, as Tempest has pointed out, you have no problem with him playing another species, so long as it's of the same gender as the player in question. If the concept of the guy sitting across from you having another two letters in front of the "male" on that little sheet of paper in front of him that represents his character bothers you so much, then don't play. But I see no reason why it should bother you, really. Then again, I've been Jacob in La Cage Aux Faulles, so my thoughts on gender-identity and my security therewith are probably at a bit of an angle to yours. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Mock26 07-23-07, 09:07 PM	Who would cause the game to degenerate into a "mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents"? The player who wants to play the female character? The DM? The other player(s)? You? Are you mature enough to play in such a game, with a female character run by a male, and not make any perverted jokes or cause any game-halting tangents? If so, then let it go. Or, is there some other issue? In all seriousness, does the idea of a male playing a female character make you feel uncomfortable or something? Could it actually be a form of homophobia?
Phrennzy 07-23-07, 09:08 PM	Let him do it, and you should play, just warn him that he needs to play her as a woman, not as a woman controlled by a man. No filthy, perverted behavior. He needs to treat her as though she were real, and real women, (for the most part) would not put up with being the focus of sexist pigs, especially if said woman could cast lightning from her fingers.
KillerGM 07-23-07, 09:14 PM	I'll tell ya' what I think... I think it's your call. Like you said, you aren't infringing upon his right to make his own choices. Heck, you aren't even goin' outa' your way to persecute or inconvenience him, which is better than most people do. I strongly disagree with the notion that you're obligated to do or support anything that makes you uncomfortable. If that something isn't hurtin' anyone and doesn't affect you, then it'd be wrong to harass folks doin' that something, but there isn't any reason you can't just walk away. I agree with this. On a side note, I actually don't allow opposite-gendered characters in my campaigns. My reasoning is: there is no reason that a character has to be a guy or a girl. There shouldn't be a significant "roleplaying" aspect of a different gender. I do agree with the OP that most people who want to play a different gender aren't "mature" enough to pull it off. If I had a nickel for every guy who either wanted to play the psychotic lesbian assassin or the pacifist lesbian healer, I'd be a rich woman. And that's part of the reason I don't allow guys to play girls (or vice versa). As a DM, yes, I run NPCs of both genders. I do it out of necessity, because I don't run games in Themyscira. But I don't run my male NPCs any differently than my female ones. Besides, a female character shouldn't be played any differently than her male counterpart just because she's a woman. And with that logic, then there's no real reason that a character *has* to be female (or male). I believe the personality of individual characters is far more influential than his/her gender. And if you want to site PrCs that require the character to be a certain gender, I just don't allow them. :P Now, I know, it's just me putting my personal feelings onto the campaign, but it ismy campaign. If someone doesn't agree with it, they can feel free not to play. Which is exactly where the OP is right now. If you don't agree with how the DM runs his game (allowing the player to play a female character) so much so that you don't want to play, then don't. Oh, and I also agree with Crimson_Concerto, in that if the guy is a problem player, he'd be that way regardless of what character he plays. :D
High Octane 07-23-07, 09:23 PM	I can see how you want to avoid this (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20050819.html). I say let him play it, but warn him that there are wandering fairies of gender changing that will change his character into a male with no memory of ever being female, but they only show up if they sense the spirit of a horny teenage male within them. If you want, you can ask him why he wants to play a female in particular. See if his answer is better than say "Cause **** are cool." Edit: I rarely play females myself, but when I do play them, I play them the same as males. Anything that gender affects usually doesn't come up much in D&D.
Mock26 07-23-07, 09:31 PM	I agree with this. On a side note, I actually don't allow opposite-gendered characters in my campaigns. My reasoning is: there is no reason that a character has to be a guy or a girl. There shouldn't be a significant "roleplaying" aspect of a different gender. I do agree with the OP that most people who want to play a different gender aren't "mature" enough to pull it off. If I had a nickel for every guy who either wanted to play the psychotic lesbian assassin or the pacifist lesbian healer, I'd be a rich woman. And that's part of the reason I don't allow guys to play girls (or vice versa). As a DM, yes, I run NPCs of both genders. I do it out of necessity, because I don't run games in Themyscira. But I don't run my male NPCs any differently than my female ones. Besides, a female character shouldn't be played any differently than her male counterpart just because she's a woman. And with that logic, then there's no real reason that a character *has* to be female (or male). I believe the personality of individual characters is far more influential than his/her gender. And if you want to site PrCs that require the character to be a certain gender, I just don't allow them. :P Now, I know, it's just me putting my personal feelings onto the campaign, but it ismy campaign. If someone doesn't agree with it, they can feel free not to play. Which is exactly where the OP is right now. If you don't agree with how the DM runs his game (allowing the player to play a female character) so much so that you don't want to play, then don't. Oh, and I also agree with Crimson_Concerto, in that if the guy is a problem player, he'd be that way regardless of what character he plays. :D Why pick a hand axe instead of a club? Why pick a scimitar over a short sword? In both cases each weapon (according to the SRD) does the same damage as the other weapon. A lot of the process that goes into creating a character is simply a matter of personal preference. A lot of someone's character is flavor. Choosing a character of different sex is often done for reasons of flavor, much as someone would pick a short sword instead of a scimitar. There are only minor differences in the weapons. When it comes to the important part, doing damage, they do the same amount of damage. Yes, it is technically true that a female dwarven fighter is just as good or bad as a male dwarven fighter. But, the sex of the character can have a huge influence on the game. In a game where most of the the "bad guys" actually are guys, there are situations where having a female character could have a huge advantage. I have yet to play in a D&D that wasn't male dominated, and I've played under quite a few female DM's. Most town guards tend to me male. If you have to bribe your way past the guards, having an attractive female trying to bribe them can have a huge advantage over a male character. And that is only one case where having a female has an advantage over a male. I respect your right as a DM to limit any factor of the game, I just don't agree with it.
twiggyleaf 07-23-07, 09:35 PM	I can't believe you have a problem with this. In all my 35 years of playing Dungeons and Dragons, I have never heard of such a thing! (The thing being your reticence to accept such a normal RPG thing.)
Krusk 07-23-07, 09:46 PM	I'm gonna say you pretty much acted in the best manner you could. You don't feel comfortable doing something, and so you calmly said that you would not be doing it. Also saying that you would not stop anyone else from doing it. Seems like the correct reaction to me. I have no problems with a guy playing a girl, so long as the group can handle themselves, -is over the mental age of 13- but if you feel your group can't and that it would ruin it for you. By all means don't play. I know a guy in my group who if he were to say "im playing a chick this game " which would be his exact words, I would sit that game out. Some people can't handle it and you shouldn't be forced to deal with it. I don't even care if your reasons are "guys playing girls is morally wrong" if thats how it is to you, more power to you. You shouldn't have to sit through a game that offends/bores you to tears just because you want to please someone else. The right thing to do in this situation is to let the players and DM know your reasons why your not playing -which you did- and then to simply wait this game out, or ask them to change it politely. This generally goes for anytime someone asks you to join in on something you don't want to do.
KillerGM 07-23-07, 10:00 PM	Why pick a hand axe instead of a club? Why pick a scimitar over a short sword? In both cases each weapon (according to the SRD) does the same damage as the other weapon. A lot of the process that goes into creating a character is simply a matter of personal preference. A lot of someone's character is flavor. Choosing a character of different sex is often done for reasons of flavor, much as someone would pick a short sword instead of a scimitar. There are only minor differences in the weapons. When it comes to the important part, doing damage, they do the same amount of damage. Yes, it is technically true that a female dwarven fighter is just as good or bad as a male dwarven fighter. But, the sex of the character can have a huge influence on the game. In a game where most of the the "bad guys" actually are guys, there are situations where having a female character could have a huge advantage. I have yet to play in a D&D that wasn't male dominated, and I've played under quite a few female DM's. Most town guards tend to me male. If you have to bribe your way past the guards, having an attractive female trying to bribe them can have a huge advantage over a male character. And that is only one case where having a female has an advantage over a male. I respect your right as a DM to limit any factor of the game, I just don't agree with it. And that's fine to not agree with it. Sex actually influences very little in my world. I can understand wanting to play female characters where being a woman would specifically be an asset in the game world (ie: Drow or another matriarchal society) and you don't have any girl players. I just don't run a world where there are too many gender differences (since I can make the world whatever I want, I let my equality run wild ;) ). I've had plenty of girl guards, and plenty of girl player characters (I have had many girl players). My "bad guys" are just as likely to be girls as guys. I don't tend to have a lot of seduction at my table. It's just not what I attract or encourage. The players (guys and girls) who I've played with have never thought of seduction as a viable tactic (it's not really what they play for), and I've never suggested it. And I respect the flavor thing, even if I don't agree with it. ;) It's just been my experience that gender too often becomes the defining facet of the character, and that offends me (and my other girl players) to no end. But this is all off-topic, and this thread isn't about my opinions on gender and how it influences games. Back to the OP: While I don't allow it in my campaigns, I have played with opposite-gender characters in other DM's campaigns. It's something I can deal with as a player, I just prefer to not deal with it as a DM. There are things that I draw the line at, and won't play with, this just isn't one of them. If the guy playing a girl bothers you so much you don't want to play, then don't play. If two of you feel this way, then it does push an issue in the group. Ultimately, D&D is a group game, and everyone must make compromises for the group to stay cohesive. Whether that's the two of you being "ok" with the guy's female character or him not playing said girl, is for you guys to work out as a group. If the guy is just a problem player altogether, which is kind of what you hinted at in your subsequent post, then talk to everyone in the group. He's going to be a problem, even if he plays a male character. Good luck!
Lady_Dragon 07-23-07, 10:00 PM	Personally I don't think anyone is in the right here. First, the guy clearly overreacted. My first DM never let me play a male and while I was somewhat disappointed, I carried on with the game and still had fun. It's not a huge deal. If the DM doesn't want him to cross-play, then he should suck it up. But that isn't the issue. While you may have had problems with him in the past, I can't see why you can't let him try it. It's a short campaign anyhow. Besides, you as the players have control of the maturity level. Even if he decides to play the character as a female caricature, the way you react to him makes all the difference. Don't rise to the bait.
ChimericalWolf 07-23-07, 10:04 PM	For those saying that if we're mature, we can do it. That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party. This is your problem. This is the problem you need to solve. If you make an issue of the situation, make an issue of this, not a cross-gender character. Like others have said, it's silly to play elves, orcs, wizards, monks, and balk at a different set of tackle. Just silly. Bring this issue up with the DM, and hash out how this character is gonna work before getting going. Give the DM your concerns, and if the player acts up, tell the DM you're uncomfortable, and let him handle it. Also, show that message to your DM. It shows a certain lack of stability that I think supports your concerns about being able to play with that player. my deep, Frenchman voice ....never the same again, Temp. Never the same again. I'm gonna go curl up with my pillow and wonder where the world went wrong.
Sci_fi__Messiah 07-23-07, 10:05 PM	Dude, grow the hell up! You can play a female character if you want! Are you afraid that his characters gonna cast cootie beam and accidently destroy the party!?
Caelic 07-23-07, 10:08 PM	I dunno...personally, I think it's harder to play, say, a 500-year-old elf than someone who happens to be of the opposite gender. Yeah, there are players out there who play opposite-sex characters badly and even offensively; generally, though, they're the ones who play any character badly. I have yet to see a genuinely skilled roleplayer who couldn't manage to play an opposite-sex character well.
TheWerg 07-23-07, 10:17 PM	Honestly, unless he goes around saying "Look how big my boobs are!!!", and things along those lines, it shouldn't be a problem. You should consider talking to him about it, and rather than flat out saying that he can't do it, make a deal with him that you'll see how he handles it, then react.
doomblade403x 07-23-07, 10:19 PM	My opinion is that he should be allowed to play what he wants. Why? Because the game is about having fun, killing some baddies, and being a part of a good story. If him going femme in a fantasy game bothers you, then I would say your the one with an issue. Tell him your problem, and come to a solution. On a side note I think he overreacted with his rant. You both need to grow up and talk out this issue like adults.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 10:26 PM	I dunno...personally, I think it's harder to play, say, a 500-year-old elf than someone who happens to be of the opposite gender. Yeah, there are players out there who play opposite-sex characters badly and even offensively; generally, though, they're the ones who play any character badly. I have yet to see a genuinely skilled roleplayer who couldn't manage to play an opposite-sex character well. Preach on, man. Preach on. ....never the same again, Temp. Never the same again. I'm gonna go curl up with my pillow and wonder where the world went wrong. Umm.... :confused: (My accent is nonexistent and I'm so rusty with my French I doubt I'm still fluent. However, if people try to peg my voice, after "American", the most common is "French", which is technically closer to the truth given my heritage as a French Canadian raised outside of Quebec.)
Jungingen 07-23-07, 10:35 PM	Dude, grow the hell up! You can play a female character if you want! Are you afraid that his characters gonna cast cootie beam and accidently destroy the party!? As fearsome as Cootie Beam sounds, you and your chum came off sounding pretty oafish in your post, OP. What the devil do you do when your DM roleplays someone who is not of his or her gender? Close your eyes, cover your ears and chant loudly till he stops? As just about everybody has already said, the problem is never a male player playing a female character. The problem is a lousy player playing a character poorly. Also, I'm not going to pass judgement on the fellow just because you quoted him using foul language; profanity is a form of punctuation for many college students (myself included). Chillax, homeslice.
Erato 07-23-07, 10:35 PM	I agree with this. On a side note, I actually don't allow opposite-gendered characters in my campaigns. My reasoning is: there is no reason that a character has to be a guy or a girl. There shouldn't be a significant "roleplaying" aspect of a different gender. I agree that the differences are often exagerated and badly played out, but I wouldn't say that there isn't a roleplaying aspect of playing a different gender. For me, it's no different than playing humans from different cultures. You don't have to play a stereotype of that culture, but trying to imagine the reactions and viewpoint of someone who was raised differently can be fun. In our own culture, men and women are stereotyped differently and thus have different experiences. Even in D&D, men can't get pregnant and are lousy at breastfeeding, which means they're probably expected to to carry out the more dangerous assingments, even if there's no law restricting the gender roles. That said, I don't actually like men playing women, because they usually suck at it, and break my suspension of disbelief with their irational behavior. Sadly, I think I have learned a lot about how males look at females by seeing them (try to) play one, reading Wheel of Time, and observing my uncle's Bernese mountain dog. And I don't like what I've learned :( But I would never forbid it, just like I would never restrict the PCs hair color (as long as their natural hair color can be found in their race ;)). Especially because I usually play with a lot of guys, and having more female PCs (and NPCs) helps to portray women as people with varied personalities, instead of a rarety to be gawked at. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman For those saying that if we're mature, we can do it. That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party. I'm confused, which one is it :confused: Is it the problem player or the female role? If it's because of the player, you should have mentioned it first, instead of just saying that you and your friend don't want a guy to play a girl (which would actually be lying to the player, if you really meant: "we don't want you to play a girl"). And if you just don't want people playing a different gender, the player doesn't matter. My suggestion is to make up your mind about what's bothering you, before asking how to deal with it :)
ranewen 07-23-07, 10:37 PM	You know, I've played in RPG's before where the group consisted entirely of females, and yet I was the only player without that Y chromosome.
danielinthewolvesden 07-23-07, 10:39 PM	For those saying that if we're mature, we can do it. That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party. Like in a campaign where everyone was CG or gooder(is that a word?), and we had a rather religious Paladin of Heronious, he was possesed by a Pit Fiend named Satan. He also didn't happen to bother to mention this, nor ever finish writing his backstory (or at least the devil part) until after the party had formed. I agree with Geek here. Really, there is generally nothing wrong with playing a PC of the opposite sex. BUT, it can (and has) led to trouble with immature & disruptive players. And, it can lead to some rather skeezy moments, like in one game where the guy wanted to play a 13yo lesbian vampire hooker. (As if playing a lesbian vampire hooker was not enough.:rolleyes: ) Due to this players bad past history (read what he posted, the swearing and the dising of the DM, etc), I would change what my demand was to: "no more disruptive activity by this player", with a special warning about his desire to play a female. I would say to the DM and all the players: "Once this guy starts up with that BS again, we are out of here. This includes, but is not limited to, immature sexual innuendoes and such-like behavior by his new female PC." Fair compromise?
Jungingen 07-23-07, 10:39 PM	That said, I don't actually like men playing women, because they usually suck at it, and break my suspension of disbelief with their irational behavior. Sadly, I think I have learned a lot about how males look at females by seeing them (try to) play one, reading Wheel of Time, and observing my uncle's Bernese mountain dog. And I don't like what I've learned :( Reading the Mountain Dog part hurt, but I don't doubt its accuracy. :(
Generic_Paladin 07-23-07, 10:56 PM	I really don't think that a guy playing a girl is a big deal, or vice versa. It's really no more unusual in the context of the game than a scrawny smart kid with an even temper playing an Int 7 Half-Orc barbarian, or a playground bully running a paladin. The whole idea is to experiment with different possibilities, something that an imagination-heavy game like D&D is really all about. And so what if the guy across the table isn't really a female? He's not a halfling either. That said, if the particular player in question has a habit of playing the part somewhat poorly, there may be grounds for trying to avoid having that person play a character of the opposite gender. I'd say, if you really anticipate problems with this guy, then try suggesting alternate characters until he agrees to something a little less potentially controversial. If he continues to be belligerent about it, trying to get him out of the campaign might not be out of the question.
LazyNinja 07-23-07, 11:04 PM	You know, I've played in RPG's before where the group consisted entirely of females, and yet I was the only player without that Y chromosome. There's your answer, OP. The entire party should be women. Straight women. No one for the characters to act out for. Hell, make the entire setting purely female: NPCs, monsters, deities. I'm pretty sure the Tarrasque doesn't have a listed gender... That said, I do find it telling that your issue with this problem player is that he wants to play a woman, not that he wants to play a woman who, two sessions in, turns out to be possessed by Satan.
Erato 07-23-07, 11:10 PM	Reading the Mountain Dog part hurt, but I don't doubt its accuracy. :( It wasn't so much that the dog acted like a man (it often did, but that's not the point ;) ), but more that it's behavior when trying to immitate a German sheperd was a lot like a guy trying to play a girl. You see, this dog grew up among the Sheperds, and believed itself to be one of them, which meant that it would do everything a German sheperd would do. Only, it didn't know why the Sheperds actually did the things they did, it just tried to blend in, by immitatiing blindly. For instance, it had learned that Sheperds liked running after a thrown stick, which it also liked, but unfortunately it didn't realize that the point of the game was to actually get the stick, so it would just run straight past it and stop about 300 ft away, looking slightly confused, and then slowly come back. But every time you took up another stick, it started wagging it's tail, eager to play the fun game again :D It's the same with many guys (I'm not saying girls couldn't do the same, it has just never been relevant). Many of them express typical feminine characteristics, they're just all wrong and doesn't make sense in the context. Their 'female' characters would throw hissy fits over the most mundane things, and then suddenly react with icy coolness over something few real females would have ever tolerated. It's like they're thinking: "I haven't acted girly for a while, so it's probably time now" without wondering whether real girls would actually behave 'girly' in the situation. It's not meant as an offense, it's just my explanation for why these characters are often incredibly unbelievable (and I mean really unbelievable, to the point where the female PCs would be more realistic if their players tried to play them like men) :)
trapspringer 07-23-07, 11:30 PM	There's your answer, OP. The entire party should be women. Straight women. No one for the characters to act out for. Hell, make the entire setting purely female: NPCs, monsters, deities. I'm pretty sure the Tarrasque doesn't have a listed gender... That said, I do find it telling that your issue with this problem player is that he wants to play a woman, not that he wants to play a woman who, two sessions in, turns out to be possessed by Satan. LazyNinja wins the thread. That'd be awesome. It'd put the kabosh on any and all disruptive activity based on heterosexual sex. All the straight females would just shoot down the problem player. That'd show him. (but seriously, don't do that; OoG solutions for OoG problems)
High Octane 07-24-07, 12:00 AM	I dunno...personally, I think it's harder to play, say, a 500-year-old elf than someone who happens to be of the opposite gender. This is the most true statement in the thread. I don't understand women. I don't know many women. I know even fewer NORMAL women. I don't wish to misrepresent one, so I don't try to act "like a woman" I just try to act like an elf ranger, or a gnome druid, or half-orc sorcerer. As I said, allow it but keep a short leash cause the player strikes me as the type who would be an immature version of a female. I find that the mature players who play females see gender as about as important as picking what color hair the character has. The immature ones are the ones that will fight tooth and nail to play a female, whining about stifling creativity and such. They usually dont want to play a woman, but some sort of woman parody.
Kojiro James 07-24-07, 01:51 AM	I really don't see the problem here. I've played females far more often than males, and they've all behaved like real people. I've had flirts, warriors, scientists, engineers, thieves, and stark raving lunatics. Thing is, their sex was simply an aspect of their biology. It had very little impact on how I played them. They were people! So like everyone stated, if this player really is a problem player, the sex of his character won't be the primary problem. Problem players will act out despite what bits their creation has between its legs. He'll just find something else to annoy you with.
Zaver 07-24-07, 02:04 AM	I find it itneresting the amount of people who are telling the OP he is in the wrong considering the number of people who disallow a class because of how it looks on paper or the one time it was played in their game. If the OP knows his group enough to know that a male playing a female will end badly it's only slightly different then not wanting a class or race that the group knows will end badly. If I had my choice of problems in a group I certainly would rather have to disallow half-dragon frost giant psionics who are orphans (though it seems a bit of a gimme with that parentage and the cliche shouldn't really be faulted) then opposite gender characters being an issue, but if it's going to hurt the game...
TheAnthroDM 07-24-07, 02:18 AM	I'm assuming that all of you are basically around 18, which means that you are all adults. No offense, but if none of you are mature enough to play in a game where one man plays a female character, then maybe you aren't mature enough to be playing the game. Quoted for Truth, better than what I was about to post.
TheAnthroDM 07-24-07, 02:20 AM	If the OP knows his group enough to know that a male playing a female will end badly it's only slightly different then not wanting a class or race that the group knows will end badly. No, actually it's closer to saying. "Wow, awesome wizard, but sorry, he can't be black."
Zaver 07-24-07, 02:30 AM	No, actually it's closer to saying. "Wow, awesome wizard, but sorry, he can't be black. Black humans don't adventure in my campaign world." That seems a gross over statement for dramatic effect. Though if you want to hold with it, would you let people play a black person if you knew it would ruin the game? Nothing but a bunch of racist sterotypical 'jokes' out of his mouth always talking about how he's sagging with his robes never mind how that's possible. Course if it's at that point you should smack the player and kick them out of the group. Point being in the OPs group men playing female characters always goes badly so it's reasonable to not want to play with that character. Alot of people ban evil characters even though there isn't any real reason to do so. After all evil characters can work for the greater good and their is nothing saying they have to screw the party. But most people know that if someone plays evil the game is going to be screwed up so they just don't allow it.
TheAnthroDM 07-24-07, 02:42 AM	That seems a gross over statement for dramatic effect. Though if you want to hold with it, would you let people play a black person if you knew it would ruin the game? Nothing but a bunch of racist sterotypical 'jokes' out of his mouth always talking about how he's sagging with his robes never mind how that's possible. Course if it's at that point you should smack the player and kick them out of the group. Point being in the OPs group men playing female characters always goes badly so it's reasonable to not want to play with that character. Alot of people ban evil characters even though there isn't any real reason to do so. After all evil characters can work for the greater good and their is nothing saying they have to screw the party. But most people know that if someone plays evil the game is going to be screwed up so they just don't allow it. Most problems with evil character actually come from having Clerics of good deities or Paladins. And if I knew that the player was racist and would be making jokes about his Wizard then I probably would have picked it up in his back story, pointed it out to him, and tell him he could only play this character on the condition he refrain from said jokes. If he didn't stop, I'd have his character killed in a freak car accident.(Nevermind how that's possible) So yes, I stick to my position than any mature group of DnD Players can be serious about any character.
Anaxander 07-24-07, 04:49 AM	I have a female player who likes to play male characters. This has never been a problem. Problems arise from player behaviour, not from specific kinds of characters.
TheAnthroDM 07-24-07, 04:59 AM	I have a female player who likes to play male characters. This has never been a problem. Problems arise from player behaviour, not from specific kinds of characters. Thank you! My point exactly. If the players gonna be a problem, he's gonna be a problem, no matter what race, gender, or class he plays.
Grogmir 07-24-07, 06:39 AM	To the OP, The reason for not wanting to play with this guy is not the fact he wants to play a women. (For the record I play as a women in a campaign with my Girlfriend who plays a male.) No.. the reason you shouldn’t play with him is the 4 year old mentality in his Fing and Blinding Email. Grogmir.
Steely_Dan 07-24-07, 07:29 AM	As long as the character is not a lesbian, give it a shot – you all know what I'm talking about… In the current Planescape campaign I'm running, we have one guy playing a female human spirit shaman, and another dude playing a homosexual male drow psion, and it's just dandy. Just avoid silly clichés.
aotrscommander 07-24-07, 09:22 AM	About half of my characters are female. About half the time of that the descision to play a female character is fairly arbitary (like the afore-mentioned hair colour). I don't see it as a problem. I don't really see there being all that much difference between the genders at the pointy-end of D&D (i.e. the bit that involves hitting things with sharp objects until they stop moving); and relationships don't tend to occur much in our games, so really it doesn't have much effect. However, OP, if your player is an asshat, then has been said, he'll be as much of an asshat as a female, male or asexual entity.
DrMorganes 07-24-07, 09:38 AM	I'm assuming that all of you are basically around 18, which means that you are all adults. No offense, but if none of you are mature enough to play in a game where one man plays a female character, then maybe you aren't mature enough to be playing the game. Dead on, Mock. Two of my longest-running characters are female. Nobody I've ever gamed with has even so much as raised an eyebrow at this. I shudder to think what would happen in this group if someone's girlfriend/wife asked to join... :eek:
Sunic_Flames 07-24-07, 10:02 AM	About half of my characters are female. About half the time of that the descision to play a female character is fairly arbitary (like the afore-mentioned hair colour). I don't see it as a problem. I don't really see there being all that much difference between the genders at the pointy-end of D&D (i.e. the bit that involves hitting things with sharp objects until they stop moving); and relationships don't tend to occur much in our games, so really it doesn't have much effect. However, OP, if your player is an asshat, then has been said, he'll be as much of an asshat as a female, male or asexual entity. I was going to make an original post, but it seems it's already been said, so I'll just quote it and add: I am a straight male. About half my characters, give or take are females. I pick whatever gender seems to fit better, just like eyecolor, hair color, and so forth. Said females are always straight or bisexual, but the subject of intimacy rarely or never comes up and if it did, it's a fade to black thing. So their sexual preferences are largely a non issue and it's entirely possible the subject never comes up at all. So I don't really see the big deal about it. Yes, it's potentially abusable for a male to play a female. So are: Lawful alignments. Chaotic alignments. Good alignments. Evil alignments. Neutral alignments. Low intelligence on the part of the player. Low intelligence on the part of the character. Low wisdom on the part of the player. Low wisdom on the part of the character. ...Everything is potentially abusable, the problem lies on the shoulders of the abuser.
Need_A_Life 07-24-07, 10:39 AM	I roll a dice (d6) every time I create a character. Even = female. Odd = male. Seriously, it's not a big deal. Of course, I never saw it as important. If your game doesn't include seductions, romantic affairs, sexual intercourses or similar it'll have NO effect on your game. Of course, a game that included above elements would likely not be one I was in. Roleplaying such scenarios are done best as... "Live Action" :D --- Really, grow up. According to your post you're older than me and yet you cannot accept that your FRIEND (that you have played with previously) is adding "fe" in front of "male" on his character sheet. The only time I told one of my friends to cut it out, when he was playing a girl was when he wanted to roleplay "having his period" and going to buy tampons. The group collectively told him to shut up and that some things aren't supposed to be mentioned in RPs (periods, sh**ting etc.) --- Really, I thought this was a joke topic when I started reading it, but it hardly seems that way now.
Zaver 07-24-07, 12:44 PM	So yes, I stick to my position than any mature group of DnD Players can be serious about any character. That's the thing though isn't? While I didn't say why I didn't want this problem the fact that it shows the group isn't mature enough to handle some things is exactly why I'd rather have players who try and make broken characters. That still doesn't change that this group can't handle it and it's valid to not allow things that will break your game. Espiecally in this case where it's a short campaign to say farewell to one of the players. After this one I'd say they should try it and hope things have changed since the last time but on this one it should run smoothly and all other things that can be abused aside, this is one they know will be abused in their group.
Infernostrider 07-24-07, 01:07 PM	im a guy playing female char's in almost every game i can, just because they look better..generally For the rest i just play as i would a guy, and if, in D&D, somebody pinches my ass i won't hit softer then any male character would >< EDIT: honestly this discussion is almost as stupid as not allowing girls in your playing group. i'm seriously against such discussions as girls can be extremely good players as well as guys, and put in a fun touch as long as the players can act maturely at all
Otakkun 07-24-07, 01:29 PM	Interesting topic. From my experience, one should avoid this whole guys-play-a-female thing if said player is in his teens. Otherwise, there should be no problem with it. Now, if you're in it just for a laugh (as opposed to a long campaign) ... an oversexed gal is always a good laugh. ;)
Janitor 07-24-07, 02:00 PM	The only time I told one of my friends to cut it out, when he was playing a girl was when he wanted to roleplay "having his period" and going to buy tampons. The group collectively told him to shut up and that some things aren't supposed to be mentioned in RPs (periods, sh**ting etc.) --- Really, I thought this was a joke topic when I started reading it, but it hardly seems that way now. To me it never seemed like a big deal either. I'm a male but most of my characters have been female. On the subject of periods and other sexual talk, the party I played in at that time had a good roleplaying session where my female character used some of her CHA to do a 'Gather Information' skill check (if you know what I mean). While it certainly caused some chuckles afterwards (especially since the DM had just found a chart outlining what the odds are of character pregnancy) it was played out in all seriousness, without mentioning dirty words once. It all comes down to how mature you handle these matters. If you suspect a player to not be serious about what he's playing or when you suspect a party that's constantly making fun of the situation, then you should probably just stick to dungeon delving and leave roleplaying alone all together. BTW: In reaction to some of the comments that state that jokes about man- or womanhood are not done whatsoever, a party who cannot have some OOC fun is a bad party, IMO. You need more than a few good OOC laughs in between roleplaying seriousness, even if it's related to man/woman opposition.
Mock26 07-24-07, 04:23 PM	EDIT: honestly this discussion is almost as stupid as not allowing girls in your playing group. i'm seriously against such discussions as girls can be extremely good players as well as guys, and put in a fun touch as long as the players can act maturely at all I prefer to play with at least one female in my group. The reason for this is that women tend to view the world from a different perspective and have a different thought process than men and can often come up with "solutions" and ideas that most men wouldn't have thought of.
WilwarinAndamar 07-24-07, 05:19 PM	I'm a girl, and I prefer playing female characters, just because I find it easier. My boyfriend also prefers playing female characters, because he likes the challenge. Our groups have really never had a problem with it. Play what you want to play. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Geek_of_Doom 07-24-07, 05:33 PM	All of the people accusing me of being homophobic or uncomfortable around it are rather mistaken. Maybe my group isn't the most mature. We tend to sometimes crack an out-of-character joke, and every now and then it sends us into a spiral of off-topicness. Then again, what group doesn't make a joke from time to time? My problem is that is a fairly common occurance in my group. We're not a 100% serious hardcore RPing group. We just do it to have fun. There's serious roleplaying, and most, if not all of the combat is all business. But that's why the woman character is a problem. With our habit of jokes, sometimes leaning towards the profane, throwing a man playing a woman into the mix will only cause further problems. And to whomever said that his character would be a problem regardless of gender, that may be true. But being a woman sure as heck wouldn't make it better And the reason I have no problem playing men of different races is because 95% of the D&D world won't look at you funny if you're 3'4" and have a massive beard or 6'4" and greenish-grey skin, weilding a greatsword. They're all men, and they all have the same regions. It's the potential for the perverted jokes that arise, that are nowhere near as present in an all-male party that worry me. It could be game-disrupting, and bother my fun. Nevertheless, if he insists on being a woman, he can. It's not my job to tell him what to play, it's the DMs. If he still wants to be a woman (He's actually starting to change his mind) I'll let him and just sit a game out.
Mock26 07-24-07, 05:59 PM	All of the people accusing me of being homophobic or uncomfortable around it are rather mistaken. Maybe my group isn't the most mature. We tend to sometimes crack an out-of-character joke, and every now and then it sends us into a spiral of off-topicness. Then again, what group doesn't make a joke from time to time? My problem is that is a fairly common occurance in my group. We're not a 100% serious hardcore RPing group. We just do it to have fun. There's serious roleplaying, and most, if not all of the combat is all business. But that's why the woman character is a problem. With our habit of jokes, sometimes leaning towards the profane, throwing a man playing a woman into the mix will only cause further problems. That really doesn't make any sense. The guy who is playing a female character is still a guy. You make it sound like the guy playing the female somehow becomes a female and that he would be offended by a joke or sexist comment that would normally offend a woman. If such a player would get offended at an off-color comment about a woman or his female character then he has some serious mental issues, needs to stop roleplaying completely, and seek psychiatric help right away. Additionally, please explain how serious combat would be a problem if there was a female character? Please explain how serious roleplaying would be a problem with a female character? You really do contradict yourself saying that you're not a 100% serious hardcore group and then saying that "there's serious roleplaying." Your argument really doesn't make much sense. And to whomever said that his character would be a problem regardless of gender, that may be true. But being a woman sure as heck wouldn't make it better But how would it make it worse? And the reason I have no problem playing men of different races is because 95% of the D&D world won't look at you funny if you're 3'4" and have a massive beard or 6'4" and greenish-grey skin, weilding a greatsword. They're all men, and they all have the same regions. It's the potential for the perverted jokes that arise, that are nowhere near as present in an all-male party that worry me. It could be game-disrupting, and bother my fun. Nevertheless, if he insists on being a woman, he can. It's not my job to tell him what to play, it's the DMs. If he still wants to be a woman (He's actually starting to change his mind) I'll let him and just sit a game out. But you make it sound like your group would and does crack disruptive jokes already, yet you are perfectly fine with it. I hate to say it, and no offense, but it really does sound like a case of immaturity. It doesn't make much sense to say that you will accept disruptive and/or perverted jokes from a male playing a male character but you won't accept disruptive and/or perverted jokes from a male playing a female character. A disruptive or perverted joke is disruptive and/or perverted already. It doesn't matter the gender of the player or the gender of the character.
High Octane 07-24-07, 06:55 PM	No, actually it's closer to saying. "Wow, awesome wizard, but sorry, he can't be black." If you knew the player would have the wizard drinking malt liquor, eating fried griffon wings all the time, talk in ebonics, and refer to the paladin as "massa paladin" then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't allow him to play a black person. Hell if you want an example of racially offensive stereotypes shoved into a black character obviously played by a dumb ignorant white kid, remember Snails.
scienceman47 07-24-07, 06:55 PM	Here's some advice for when your game is disrupted cause theres a female character in the mix. Learn some self control. Seriously, agree that every once in a while that theres no time for classless boob jokes or toilet seats or whatever you indulge in and focus on the game. Its that simple.
danielinthewolvesden 07-24-07, 08:49 PM	You know friends, you are not reading the OP through. The problem is not a regular male gamer wanting to run a female, the problem is a bad player- well known for being disruptive and abusive- and who the OP KNOWS will use the male/female thing to just be disruptive, in a new and even more obnoxious way. It's perfectly OK for most mature players to run a cross-gendered PC. But when that player in known to be a smirking immature adolescent, who turns any PC into soemthing to ruin the fun of everyone else at the table- that is another entirely. Too many of you are apparently reading part way thru the OP, and posting based upon just that. The OP is correct. He is not over-reacting.
Mock26 07-24-07, 09:19 PM	You know friends, you are not reading the OP through. The problem is not a regular male gamer wanting to run a female, the problem is a bad player- well known for being disruptive and abusive- and who the OP KNOWS will use the male/female thing to just be disruptive, in a new and even more obnoxious way. It's perfectly OK for most mature players to run a cross-gendered PC. But when that player in known to be a smirking immature adolescent, who turns any PC into soemthing to ruin the fun of everyone else at the table- that is another entirely. Too many of you are apparently reading part way thru the OP, and posting based upon just that. The OP is correct. He is not over-reacting. Some people are apparently reading the entire original post but aren't reading or understanding it clearly. It seems to me like he hasn't been directly accusing the so-called "bad player" of possibly using the female charcter to be a pervert and disrupt the game. It seems to me like he is saying that this player's character, a female, would be an excuse for everyone, including the so-called "bad player" and the original poster, to crack perverted jokes and disrupt the game. In his first post, Geek of Doom doesn't say that the player who wants to play a female character will be disruptive. He simply states, "But the problem is one of our players expressed interest in playing a female. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents." That doesn't clearly state what will be disruptive. It states that "it" will be disruptive, not that "he" will be disruptive. It does not clearly state that the player in question will be disruptive, only that a male run female character would be disruptive. One could infer that the player of the female would cause the disruptions. But someone could just as easily infer that the female character would cause any or all players to be disruptive (as in using a female character in the adventuring group as an excuse to crack perverted jokes and such). Yes, the player in question had a certainly colorful e-mail exchange, but that doesn't necessarily mean or imply that he will cause problems with his female character. The closest Geek of Doom comes to stating that the player in question will be disruptive is his second post where he states, "For those saying that if we're mature, we can do it. That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party. Like in a campaign where everyone was CG or gooder(is that a word?), and we had a rather religious Paladin of Heronious, he was possesed by a Pit Fiend named Satan. He also didn't happen to bother to mention this, nor ever finish writing his backstory (or at least the devil part) until after the party had formed." That, to me, means that any character he plays will be a problem, regardless of the character's sex. But, it doesn't state or even imply that this player will use the sex of his character to cause additional or bigger problems. In fact, in his third and most recent post, Geek of Doom states that everyone in the group gets disruptive at times. Here's a quote: "Maybe my group isn't the most mature. We tend to sometimes crack an out-of-character joke, and every now and then it sends us into a spiral of off-topicness." That sounds to me like the problem isn't that one player (who just happens to be a so-called bad player) wants to play a female character, but that the entire group isn't mature enough to handle a male-run female character. If that is the case, then the guy definitely should not play a female character. But, the original poster really should recognize the source of the problem, that it is the general level of immaturity of himself and the rest of the group that is the problem, not the fact that it is a female character played by a male player.
BlackHalfDragon 07-24-07, 11:08 PM	Most of my players, as well as myself, have played female characters--I've actually played two. The reason? To further change things--a lot of people find that it is easiest to separate oneself from the fictional world when you are playing something completely different from yourself. In this case, playing a female when you are male, or playing a male when you are female, is an easy way to do so. i tend to agree, im a bloke and have a reasonably charitable attitude [NG :P] towards people, no saint but who is? that's why i like evil necromancer blokes if evil. its ultimate 'what if' - what is I woke up tomorrow and was twisted in a fantasy world. Hell i study forensics, I like dead stuff and science so it makes sense. Alternatively i would think that playing a good character would just turn to a ninja clone of me. so if good a female would help reinforce subconsciously that 'this is not me and please do not act like me' approach
maharai23 07-24-07, 11:13 PM	The way I see it: Either the person's right to have walked, since he didn't feel comfortable with the campaign... Or... He needs to learn to deal with it, and it's the player who wants to be a chick is perfectly in his right to do so... Or both. The guy who wanted to play a female has every right to. It's his freedom as a player to do this. The guy who's walking is voting with his feet. It's perfectly ok to do so, and indeed, is the only way to ensure that you don't spend your free time doing something you don't like. Freedom of the player goes both ways.
Zaver 07-24-07, 11:51 PM	The way I see it... It would be far more amusing to tell the player who wants a female character that he can't have one and then force the OP to play a female character. Also, when both parties are unhappy you know you've made the rigth descision. Or is that just in civil law suits?
maharai23 07-25-07, 12:47 AM	It would be far more amusing to tell the player who wants a female character that he can't have one and then force the OP to play a female character. Also, when both parties are unhappy you know you've made the rigth descision. Or is that just in civil law suits? Compromise: The art of making sure nobody gets their way.
was_fired 07-25-07, 01:04 AM	My biggest problem with it has always been the pronouns. My games involve absolutely no romance or the like (I have no clue how to DM that, and don't feel like doing a bad job) so the issue really doesn't come up. I do dislike it though simply because of the pronoun issue. It's annoying to end up hearing, "She..." "You mean he." Constantly. It slows down the flow of the game, but that's just my issue with memory. That said I'm siding with the faction that says if you're not comfortable with it and neither is the group then just don't allow it. It's your game, not the boards. Run it like you want to.
CCS 07-25-07, 01:42 AM	I calmly replied with: Forgot to mention a point. [Guy wanting to play a girl], I'm not hindering your self-expression. You could play a halfling two-weapon fighter barbarian that insists on only wearing pieces of cabbage for clothing. Actually, please don't. But my point is I'm not stopping you. You're free to. I just choose not to, if possible, play in a game where a man plays a woman. He hasn't replied to that yet, but how should I handle this? A question; If this is you're stance, how do you deal with the position of DM? You know, considering that they have to play the roles of barmaids, princesses, witches, and any other female NPCs.... Or are the worlds you play in 100% male? For that matter, how do you manage to read/enjoy most books, movies etc. Afterall, it's pretty common for the authors to be of one gender but be writing characters of the opisite sex. So yea, I think you handled it poorly.
Anaxander 07-25-07, 04:55 AM	In fact, in his third and most recent post, Geek of Doom states that everyone in the group gets disruptive at times. Here's a quote: That sounds to me like the problem isn't that one player (who just happens to be a so-called bad player) wants to play a female character, but that the entire group isn't mature enough to handle a male-run female character. If that is the case, then the guy definitely should not play a female character. But, the original poster really should recognize the source of the problem, that it is the general level of immaturity of himself and the rest of the group that is the problem, not the fact that it is a female character played by a male player. And if his group is immature or just not taking roleplaying serious (which is not a bad thing in itself, mind you), playing anything will result in Monty Python-esque scenarios. I know a player who is able to make fun of any PC or NPC character... sometimes it's disruptive, sometimes it's fun.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-25-07, 11:55 AM	But the problem is one of our players expressed interest in playing a female. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents. There is nothing wrong with people playing PCs of the opposite sex, unless the group involved is a bunch of immature gits.
danielinthewolvesden 07-25-07, 03:16 PM	There is nothing wrong with people playing PCs of the opposite sex, unless the group involved is a bunch of immature gits. Or unless just the one guy is an "immature git".
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-25-07, 03:40 PM	Or unless just the one guy is an "immature git". Then he is an immature git. The sex of his, or another's PC, has nothing particular to do with it. It is just one thing, of many, he can be a git about, it is not the cause of him being a git. I am a very visual person and when I create a PC the first thing I get is the appearance - sometimes it is male, sometimes female; the ratio is about 50/50 - and I build the character from there.
Mock26 07-25-07, 04:19 PM	And if his group is immature or just not taking roleplaying serious (which is not a bad thing in itself, mind you), playing anything will result in Monty Python-esque scenarios. I know a player who is able to make fun of any PC or NPC character... sometimes it's disruptive, sometimes it's fun. I agree. In fact, I pretty much said the same thing in my above post.
Inquisitor Tremayne 07-25-07, 04:44 PM	In any RPG I play I only play female characters. And I am a guy. My reasoning: 98% of the games I have played in have consisted of 99% guys. I want to be different from the norm and move outside of not only MY comfort zone but everyone else's comfort zone and play a female. I have had ZERO problems from other players with this. Have we cracked jokes about it? Yes. Have these jokes derailed the game? No. The only slightly annoying thing is reminding everyone that my character IS female. You don't need to participate in a game that makes you uncomfortable. But it is YOUR choice to leave the game or not. Only the DM can dictate the characters he allows in his games and if he is fine with it then it really is only YOUR problem.
queenfange 07-25-07, 04:51 PM	Wow, tons of replies. I don't see why this is so confusing. Is it silly not to want to play with a guy who wants to be a girl? Yes and no. Yes, because if the person is mature, and the other PCs are, you shouldn't have any problems with it. No, because a lot of people aren't mature, and tend to try to create situations where they can bother others, and guys wanting to play girls (unfortunately) often are. In this case, if he swears and freaks out when you say (I assume calmly and politely), "I'd prefer it if your PC was male," don't play with him. Ask the DM to run a seperate campaign for you and your other friend, if he has the time, or find a new group.
Sleepwalker13666 07-25-07, 04:55 PM	I am male, and almost always play female characters, whenever I start playing with new people they notice and always ask why. The answer for me is this: Most of my characters are inspired from comic books, I prefer to read comics with female heroes like Lady Death, Areala Warrior Nun, Tarot: The Witch of the Black Rose, etc. I have a female friend in the group that mostly plays male characters, she is often inspired by her anime heroes.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-25-07, 05:15 PM	On a side note, I prefer playing female PCs in MMOs. If I am going to be staring at someone at the same backside for several hundred hours I prefer it to be a shapely female backside.
Mock26 07-25-07, 05:21 PM	On a side note, I prefer playing female PCs in MMOs. If I am going to be staring at someone at the same backside for several hundred hours I prefer it to be a shapely female backside. Does that mean that your coveting your own shapely female backside? And isn't that more than just a bit distrubing? :D
MCage 07-25-07, 05:38 PM	a guy in my group, whos normal a bit of a trouble maker to begin with, played a lady character for only one session, but he did just fine. Were all around 21 and pretty casual but we didnt just break down into chick-with-....extras jokes, though it was only one session (his character was an alienist who took ranks in craft (fingerpaint) exculsivly useing poo)
Sim_antix 07-25-07, 05:50 PM	The DM is free to have all the NPCs he wants. Reasoning behind that is that with a PC, we're stuck with him/her the entire game, or until they die. With an NPC, usually it's between 1 and 15 minutes max, and that's not a huge worry to me. For those saying that if we're mature, we can do it. That's fine, except the person in question has a habit of creating "problem" characters, or pretty much ones that are a general nusiance to the entire party. Like in a campaign where everyone was CG or gooder(is that a word?), and we had a rather religious Paladin of Heronious, he was possesed by a Pit Fiend named Satan. He also didn't happen to bother to mention this, nor ever finish writing his backstory (or at least the devil part) until after the party had formed. Shenannigans! You only have a problem because it is cross-gendered, you never said anything about the player being a problem player in the OP. Problem players are going to be a problem regardless of the character choosen. Gender is meaningless to that problem. You guys were wrong.
Balseraph 07-25-07, 06:39 PM	I don't run my male NPCs any differently than my female ones. I was going to disagree on principle when I realized that I don't run males or female NPCs overly differently either. Characters are different people and I try to play them accordingly. They are also different people and some of that comes from being different genders. It's certainly not the most important distinction as to whether or not an NPC is helpful or hostile, however. Most stereotypes can be adjusted to fit either gender just fine as a PC or an NPC. That said, I defend my players in their choices to play either gender. If one of my friends can play a warforged and another plays a changeling who can alter his form at will, then who am I to say that they shouldn't play a character who just happens to be female. Yes yes, I do admit that is because I am fortunate enough to have a very mature gaming group, people who can cope with it without crude jokes or innuendo. :D
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-26-07, 09:44 AM	I was going to disagree on principle when I realized that I don't run males or female NPCs overly differently either. I run them differently, but not based on sex. I also run male PCs different from other male PCs and female PCs different from other female PCs. The PCs' personality, class, history, role, and background determines how I play them, not their plumbing.
trapspringer 07-26-07, 11:16 AM	Freedom of the player goes both ways. Ooh, +1 for putting it succinctly. Also, _Jayn_Cobb_, I agree that I'd rather play a female character in basically any visual medium for the exact reason you would, but you've gotta admit sandman's right about one thing: MMO's are t3h d3vil and t3 c0c4in rolled into one.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-26-07, 11:32 AM	Also, _Jayn_Cobb_, I agree that I'd rather play a female character in basically any visual medium for the exact reason you would, but you've gotta admit sandman's right about one thing: MMO's are t3h d3vil and t3 c0c4in rolled into one. Naw, MMOs are just games. Like any game - or any escapist entertainment, really - some folks can take it too seriously, get too wrapped up in it, but most of us can integrate it into our lives healthily and in moderation as we do everything else.
CryoSilver 07-26-07, 12:39 PM	I play an MMO so I can game and chat with my friends at the same time without Alt-Tabbing thousands of times an hour; if my friends stopped playing, so would I. Anyways, most of my characters are male, just because it never really comes up, and it causes less uproar. I HAVE played a couple female characters and one of two things has happened: it never even got mentioned, or it got mentioned and then forgotten, because my character's lack of external genitalia was offset by her ability to slaughter orcs.
Aucturos 07-26-07, 01:14 PM	No offence, but Im 17, and I think that if one man plays a female character, he's pretty much g**y, and that's because I cannot see the reasons behind his preferation to female characters. "Offence" isn't a word (Offense is). "Im" is not a word. "I'm" is. "Preferation" is not a word. "Preference" is. As Jayne_Cobb said, you don't know anything. You can take this two ways. Either as an insult, or as a realization. The latter will happen whether you like it or not. You wake up one morning, and the first thought that pops into your head is, "Wow, I don't know jack-diddly squat." Your argument doesn't make sense. If a homosexual male were really homosexual, why would he live out fantasies through the body of a woman? If a woman was a lesbian, why would they play through their dreams in the body of a man? I mean, do you go around playing a homosexual male PC who tries to sleep with Princes and attractive Bards? No, you probably don't, because that's not what you enjoy. You can make the segue yourself to the last paragraph. Honestly, when I was 17 I felt very unsure of playing any character as the opposite gender. I just didn't think I could do a girl the justice of being played correctly, because too much of my perception relied on stereotypical situations which weren't conducive to the type of task at hand. I had plenty of girl friends, there were many strong female personages that I knew of, but I just wasn't developed to the point where I could take them on confidently. Now, however, I wouldn't mind at all. Through enough experience, I find it far less disconcerting a proposition to create a fairly appropriate approximation of a female character. I'm never going to be perfect, but now I can handle the immaturity I feared before better, through talks with friends I know motives, methods, and a few background workings of what they'd do in the situation (as we do with all friends). Really, your statement exemplifies the entire purpose of this thread: "If someone isn't mature enough to do it comfortably, they shouldn't be doing it, whether they wish to abide or not." The second clause, though often overlooked, is: "And if you should feel need to criticize them for this unreadiness without good reason, you, yourself, should be ashamed of your own actions." Thusly, I sum up my opinion of what's evident in the thread. Now, DM AWAY!
Crimson_Concerto 07-26-07, 01:21 PM	No offence, but Im 17, and I think that if one man plays a female character, he's pretty much g**y, and that's because I cannot see the reasons behind his preferation to female characters.Okay, wow, first of all, to everybody else in this thread, please realize that not all 17-year-olds are this ignorant and immature. Thank you. Second of all, playing a female character has absolutely nothing to do with a player's sexuality. It may have something to do with how mature tha player is and how comfortable they are with their sexuality, but that's as far as it goes. I've had straight male players younger than you who were actually mature enough and secure enough in their sexuality to play female characters and even gay male characters maturely because the entire point of playing D&D is to be somebody other than yourself. That doesn't mean you WANT to be the character, just that you're interested in seeing a specific type of character in the game and wouldn't mind providing it yourself. After all, people play Halflings all the time, but how many of those people do you think actually WANT to be a halfling? Third of all, I am gay and have played with other gay players, and you know what? We don't necessarely prefer female PCs either or even gay PCs. My personal collection of characters are about half and half male and female, and most of the time their sexualities have not come up. When they have, only about 1/5 of my characters are actually gay or bisexual themselves. Final point: If players are mature and secure in their sexualities, their sex and sexuality need not have anything at all to do with their characters' sexes or sexualities. If you believe otherwise, your logic is flawed, and you need to examine how mature and secure you actually are... EDIT: Oh, and you should be ashamed of using asterisks for the word "gay." That indicates to me that you think it's an insult or intended to use it as such...
Holy_Beholder 07-26-07, 01:58 PM	No offence, but Im 17, and I think that if one man plays a female character, he's pretty much g**y, and that's because I cannot see the reasons behind his preferation to female characters. Alright, I'd just like to point out right now that not all 17 year olds are this immature, as Crimson Concerto already has. I'm 14, have played female characters, and that doesn't make me gay. It just means I actually want to try role playing someone different than myself. Role playing someone similar to you (smart male teenager who is no athlete) is easy, and boring. I have the most fun playing obscure things. I have played a computer virus, an anthropomorphic ferret in a Redwall like campaign, and similar things, because it is more fun. If you can't understand that, then the problem is with you, not with the player. Just because you can't see the reason doesn't mean they are gay, it means they actually have an imagination, which they intend to use, and are capable of role playing instead of being a power gaming munchkin cheat. Also why did you put asterisks in gay? It isn't a bad word or an insult, it is a simple fact of life for some people. Also, even if you decided to use asterisks for gay, you should only have used one, it has 3 letters, not 4.
green_yawgmoth 07-26-07, 02:31 PM	The thing that stood out the most to me in the OP is that he's railing on about his "self-expression". If his argument was "wait, why does it matter what gender my character is? I'm confused, I thought we were more mature than that" (or something similar) then I'd say the Op has unfounded fears. But the fast that he's throwing a cursing, caps-locking fit over being told that they'd prefer him not play a chick because it could turn into a 12 year old lunch table, I think this guy has some definite mental issues. I'd shy away from gaming with this guy at all, if this is how he reacts to a fellow player's concerns. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Count_Chumleigh 07-26-07, 02:39 PM	Okay, wow, first of all, to everybody else in this thread, please realize that not all 17-year-olds are this ignorant and immature. Thank you. Speaking as a recovering 17-year-old--it's been six years and I still can't live it down--I can assure you that they are.
Ack 07-26-07, 04:52 PM	[obligatory gender/preference statement]I am a straight male, age 36.[/obligatory statement] I first tried to play a female character at the age of (god, how long ago was that) ah yes, 18. I guess I didn't do too badly. The game didn't go for too long, so there wasn't much to compare with. Around the same time, I played an established female NPC very briefly (I was between characters). I sucked. Badly. Totally fell out of the role. However, after that, under the encouragement of a female GM, I played several female characters with varying degrees of success (I also played male characters - but I know how to be a guy :P). In one game, her male NPC and my female character were a couple; it was just one of those things, and we didn't think it particularly weird. Since then, I've really had no problem with playing male, female, other (and 'other' crops up in the strangest places :P) - some of my all-time favourite characters have been female. Including the martial artist who faced off (and took down) a guy literally twice her strength and three times her body mass (that was in GURPS). I've also played (and still play) female characters in d20 Modern, online and otherwise. And you know what? I'm still straight. Actually, playing females is unlikely to make a straight guy gay (any more than playing a wizard is likely to make anyone good at casting magical spells) but, if you play the role correctly you do end up understanding a little more about the female psyche. Which can only be a good thing, if you happen to want to associate with girls on a meaningful basis. Well, it worked for me :D
Mock26 07-26-07, 05:39 PM	I think that there was almost an entire "generation" of male gamers who, regardless of age, back in the year 1988, created one or more characters that were red-haired female human warriors. And, I imagine that more than a few were named Sorsha. There is nothing wrong with that. ======================================== =============== As to the comment about a player being g**y, so what? Sexual orientation, be it real or imagined, is not contagious. Sitting next to someone who is g**y will not make you g**y. What I think is truly sad is that you have missed what I consider to be one of the most important lessons that you can learn from playing D&D (and any other roleplaying game), and that is to accept people for who they are. Back in my early days of playing D&D, back when I was around 12 or 13, I played with a wide variety of different people. Most of our D&D club was middle class, a couple were rich, and some were dirt poor and on wlefare. There were people of all races and all religions, including a couple of muslims. Some were jocks, others nerds, and some punks. We even had a cheerleader for a while. Several of these people did eventually turn out to be gay. One of these players is now a roman catholic priest. Another is a career military man. The point of all this is that if I had just tried to play with the people whom I normally hung out with at that time (which was mainly middle class white main-stream christians) I probably never would have stuck with the game because there wouldn't have been enough people to play with. But, I loved the game and learned that you can't judge a book (or people) by the cover. I learned to accept a good D&D player for what they were, which was usually a very decent person. Who cared if they were rich, or poor, or muslim, or christian, or a jock, or a nerd, or gay, or even green? A good person will always be a good person, regardless of the their outer trappings.
aotrscommander 07-26-07, 05:40 PM	Speaking as a recovering 17-year-old--it's been six years and I still can't live it down--I can assure you that they are. I wasn't, I can assure you. Mind you, (true story) my primary school teacher did once comment to my parents that I was middle-aged at eleven. (In fact, he apparently said he could see me discussing the merits of various baby milks with the nurses at materity clinic as a baby!) Come to think of it, I remember my parents telling me that I made made English college tutor feel juvenile when I was 17-18, so...(Well, they did try and play Chinese Whispers one day for some innane reason, so it's thier own fault!) 'Course, I'm just special like that. (For whatever given value of 'special' you care to assign...) So now I'm 27, I have decided I am now offically Old, so can annoy people by pretending I'm deaf.
Scortius 07-26-07, 06:19 PM	Wow Aucturos, that was pretty good. I also very much agree. I, being 18, probably wouldn't have done the role justice, but I made a very cool female character that I got really excited about playing. Then, 10 min in, being new to the party they randomly said that my character should be strip-searched... Then the sexual jokes began... Let's just say that she was disgusted with them, and left before the end of the day. So yes, I very much agree that it's all about maturity.
WizO_Cat 07-26-07, 10:18 PM	Ok, let's refrain from the baiting. Thank you.
trapspringer 07-26-07, 10:55 PM	What I think is truly sad is that you have missed what I consider to be one of the most important lessons that you can learn from playing D&D (and any other roleplaying game), and that is to accept people for who they are. People should not be accepted for who they are. They should be judged on the merit of their methods, goals, results, and intentions. I think you'll find that philosophy to be more consistent with your own behavior if you take a moment to consider it honestly. You may have even intended that. You talked a lot about judging people not based on your first impression and I agree with that, but I'm not goin' down on record as sitting silent while anyone advocates the "all views are equal" world view.
Mock26 07-26-07, 11:32 PM	People should not be accepted for who they are. They should be judged on the merit of their methods, goals, results, and intentions. I think you'll find that philosophy to be more consistent with your own behavior if you take a moment to consider it honestly. You may have even intended that. You talked a lot about judging people not based on your first impression and I agree with that, but I'm not goin' down on record as sitting silent while anyone advocates the "all views are equal" world view. Yeah, that is what I intended. A jerk is still a jerk is still a jerk regardless of their background. I was not advocating playing with people who you don't like or don't want to play with or anything like that. I was simply advocating the whole "don't judge a book by its cover" adage.
Optimator 07-26-07, 11:46 PM	Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents. I dunno, my games frequently have perverted jokes and game-halting tangents, even quite long tangents. They have never spawned from a male playing a female. It's usually just us.
Crimson_Concerto 07-26-07, 11:59 PM	Speaking as a recovering 17-year-old--it's been six years and I still can't live it down--I can assure you that they are.Maybe YOU were, but not ALL were, are, or will be. Citing the stupid actions, immaturity, or ignorance of one individual does not succeed in indicating anything about the group one may try to claim the individual in question represents. There are some very mature 17-year-olds just as there are very immature 25-year-olds. The relationship between maturity and age is not a constant shared by all individuals.
trapspringer 07-27-07, 01:11 AM	You um... you know you can't win this argument, right? See, any point you make will be void because you're "just a dumb seventeen year old." ...Same reason arguments by any minority (like, oh, I dunno', gay people) are written off by bigots. Now, I ain't sayin' either of you is right, but at least your honest about your prejudice. If the other guy persists in his assertion that you're a moron, he is a hypocrite.
Hopeless 07-27-07, 07:20 AM	My friend is starting a short (3-5 session) campaign before he goes off to college, where he won't be able to join my regular group's games, as his school is in New Mexico, and we live in Virginia. But he made a post on the forums we created so our group has a place to discuss upcoming games and whatnot. His campaign right now is fairly vague other than that it'll be a lot of urban and that loud, flashy characters are not reccomended, since some of the city may be seedy. None of that is bad to me. I'm perfectly open to a change from the whole matter of "small cities littered around the kingdom, with rural areas in between" But the problem is one of our players expressed interest in playing a female. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents. So the friend, who said he didn't want to play with a woman calmly stated that. I said that I agreed 100%. The person interested in playing a woman responded with: What the [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] is your problem with my desire for self-expression?! If I want to play a girl in [DM's name] campaign, I sure as [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] am going to do it, and you can't stop me. You two would be serious [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] if you didn't play just because of that one reason. So what if I can't think like a girl? I sure as [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] could give it a shot. And another thing: why would you think any of us would even considering approaching the bloated, arbitrary tangents we had in [Our very bad previous DM] game? YOU HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER WHO WE'RE TAKKING ABOUT! THIS IS [Our very bad previous DM],THE LOSER WHO COULDN'T DM TO SAVE HIS LIFE! I calmly replied with: Forgot to mention a point. [Guy wanting to play a girl], I'm not hindering your self-expression. You could play a halfling two-weapon fighter barbarian that insists on only wearing pieces of cabbage for clothing. Actually, please don't. But my point is I'm not stopping you. You're free to. I just choose not to, if possible, play in a game where a man plays a woman. He hasn't replied to that yet, but how should I handle this? All names have been removed to protect those involved I've run several characters who were female mostly due to the miniature i used being female rather than any other reason. In most cases yes there were a few rude jokes about it, but I was there to roleplay so I roleplayed I didn't respond to the crude remarks and on afew occasions we actually had female gamers (three of whom were my sisters and last time i checked have resolutely vowed never to rolaplay again). Personally it really comes down to whether you can cope with it and as long as you're having fun what does it matter what they think?
sirjimbob 07-27-07, 08:09 AM	My friend is starting a short (3-5 session) campaign before he goes off to college, where he won't be able to join my regular group's games, as his school is in New Mexico, and we live in Virginia. But he made a post on the forums we created so our group has a place to discuss upcoming games and whatnot. His campaign right now is fairly vague other than that it'll be a lot of urban and that loud, flashy characters are not reccomended, since some of the city may be seedy. None of that is bad to me. I'm perfectly open to a change from the whole matter of "small cities littered around the kingdom, with rural areas in between" But the problem is one of our players expressed interest in playing a female. Both me and another player expressed that we refused to play in a game where a man played a woman, since it has a bad habit of falling apart into a mess of perverted jokes and game-halting tangents. So the friend, who said he didn't want to play with a woman calmly stated that. I said that I agreed 100%. The person interested in playing a woman responded with: What the [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] is your problem with my desire for self-expression?! If I want to play a girl in [DM's name] campaign, I sure as [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] am going to do it, and you can't stop me. You two would be serious [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] if you didn't play just because of that one reason. So what if I can't think like a girl? I sure as [OMG NAUGHTY WORD] could give it a shot. And another thing: why would you think any of us would even considering approaching the bloated, arbitrary tangents we had in [Our very bad previous DM] game? YOU HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER WHO WE'RE TAKKING ABOUT! THIS IS [Our very bad previous DM],THE LOSER WHO COULDN'T DM TO SAVE HIS LIFE! I calmly replied with: Forgot to mention a point. [Guy wanting to play a girl], I'm not hindering your self-expression. You could play a halfling two-weapon fighter barbarian that insists on only wearing pieces of cabbage for clothing. Actually, please don't. But my point is I'm not stopping you. You're free to. I just choose not to, if possible, play in a game where a man plays a woman. He hasn't replied to that yet, but how should I handle this? All names have been removed to protect those involved I realy don't care how you think on men playing women that your chioce. Everyone has an right to their oppion. Just let you know someone that is gay might save your life (fireman, emt, cops, or a common joe with an organ doination). I wish their was more gay men leaves more womens for me.:D Yes I thought the way you did when I was about 14. The most roleplaying of sex is hey i'm getting a hore and that's it. Then again I some grew up in a couple of years. Now I'm 27 with no problem with what people play. Either just deal with or talk to him nicely. Tell him how you feel about men playing as women (Hair spray and John ....) and that if they do you think their gay. After that happens he just might think your a a$$hat and a bigot and quit or it will be all right I' just play a dude and still think your an a$$hat. Then again he just might be ok with it all an not think your an a$$hat.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-27-07, 09:31 AM	I think that there was almost an entire "generation" of male gamers who, regardless of age, back in the year 1988, created one or more characters that were red-haired female human warriors. And, I imagine that more than a few were named Sorsha. There is nothing wrong with that. Not I, though the character of Madmartigen was an almost direct copy - right down to the look of the armor - of a D&D character I'd been playing since 1983. Quite shocking when I saw it, really. Some characters work as male, some work as female, and some can be either. What set Lara Croft apart and made her stand out was that she was female, whereas Larry Croft would've been just another forgettable wannabe action star.
Aise 07-27-07, 05:41 PM	please, your being close minded and immature. I have both role played as a girl and acted on stage as a girl. Its not wierd, sure if he starts making jokes like going over to every bar patron and seducing them and then stealing their money in the middle of the night. but if he does it well, calmly and maturely, and you (the rest of the players) do the same thing, then its fine.
High Octane 07-27-07, 06:40 PM	I wasn't, I can assure you. Mind you, (true story) my primary school teacher did once comment to my parents that I was middle-aged at eleven. (In fact, he apparently said he could see me discussing the merits of various baby milks with the nurses at materity clinic as a baby!) Come to think of it, I remember my parents telling me that I made made English college tutor feel juvenile when I was 17-18, so...(Well, they did try and play Chinese Whispers one day for some innane reason, so it's thier own fault!) 'Course, I'm just special like that. (For whatever given value of 'special' you care to assign...) So now I'm 27, I have decided I am now offically Old, so can annoy people by pretending I'm deaf. I would say you are probably screaming at the kids to get off your lawn, but Im thinking instead it will be "Hey you kids! Get out of my tomb!"
aotrscommander 07-27-07, 07:43 PM	I would say you are probably screaming at the kids to get off your lawn, but Im thinking instead it will be "Hey you kids! Get out of my tomb!" Spot on! Though, after I've thrown the Fireball at them, obviously... Little blighters, think any building they can break in to they can use for their little mating rituals...in my day kids were more respectful and failed their saves when you bespelled them...damn child heroes and their +5 cloaks of resistance...
Kojiro James 07-27-07, 09:17 PM	Some characters work as male, some work as female, and some can be either. What set Lara Croft apart and made her stand out was that she was female, whereas Larry Croft would've been just another forgettable wannabe action star. That was her name before the operation.
trapspringer 07-28-07, 02:06 AM	... Wow, that... that's not really displaying an understanding of what the OP said, like, at all. 1. Disruptive player is playing female character 2. OP believes this will lead to awkward sex-stuff. 3. OP says he will not play in a game that will probably feature awkward sex-stuff. He wants to know if what he did was wrong. ...unless I missed something (it happens).
Morits 07-28-07, 12:22 PM	DnD is a game where we pretend to be elves and dragons and hobbits and wizards. If we can pretend to be wizards, we can pretend to be women. Most of us have met women, so we have some vague idea about them. No-one has met an elf unless they are smoking something.
RuckusFox 07-28-07, 02:05 PM	Eh, just get off of his back and show him that you support his decision. I do the same thing. Every campaign I switch between male and female (we have some rather short and crappy ones in between the awesome "out of the book" ones) and I don't catch too much flak. Part of the reason is...hell...it's just a huge sausage fest. There -has- to be a girl now and then, you know? But in truth, your friend may be a little insecure about you, his friends, supporting his own sexuality. He may be going through some times when he's deciding not only the fate of his character, but his own fate as well. I went through some pretty rough times when deciding my sexuality, but I'm rock-solid now. He'll figure himself out soon enough. Truth be told, if it is sexuality based, he's probably getting more of a jolt from his parents than he is from you. All in all, it's his call. Just let him know that you're there for him.
CryoSilver 07-28-07, 08:43 PM	You um... you know you can't win this argument, right? See, any point you make will be void because you're "just a dumb seventeen year old." ...Same reason arguments by any minority (like, oh, I dunno', gay people) are written off by bigots. Also, people like me ruin it for him; having just recently been 17, I can tell ya, I was about as irresponsible (though maybe not as immature) as it's possible to be without deliberately making bad decisions solely because they're bad.
trapspringer 07-28-07, 10:46 PM	Anecdotal evidence. Try again.
Eshenaleros 07-28-07, 11:06 PM	Isn't an entire huge part of D&D role playing? if not then a huge part of the d&d members in the world have been smoking something bad without knowing it, which i find unlikely. if someone wants to try playing just a regular human, sure. an Elf? no prob. a friggin' demon lord that rules over a large part of the abyss? why not? but why is it that when someone even suggests playing the opposite gender others flip out about it? why don't you just let them and be done with it? if it's really such a problem that nobody will play in this campaign with the guy, try finding a new campaign! P.S. sure, i didn't read ever single post. so sue me. but i do apologize if i'm dragging up something that was resolved three pages ago
Ell 07-29-07, 12:21 AM	Well, another one of those cross-sex roleplaying threads... I'm sure a lot of people have already told all the necessary and not necessary "be tolerant" and "playing women doesn't mean being gay" thing, but there's another side of the medal. If the player in question reacts on their friend's words in a manner detailed in the first post, he is certainly NOT mature enough to play a female character and not to turn it into some kind of breast-wrestler-wearing-as-little-armor-as-I-can circus. There are different ways of doing things, too. One of my friends, an excellent DM, doesn't let me play a male character because he simply can't associate me with the concept of male, and so his NPC won't be able to act adequate. Another one has a strict "no cross-sex" rule because well, it's just how he likes it) And I knew a group of five straight males who always had a female character in their group, just because they felt an all-male group lacked "a gentle feminine touch". And trust me, they roleplayed that "gentle touch" just great) So well, yes, be tolerant. But do not tolerate craziness in your game. And remember that everyone have the right not to allow the things they find disruptive in their game.
Mock26 07-29-07, 01:56 AM	Eh, just get off of his back and show him that you support his decision. I do the same thing. I don't think the people are really, at the core of it all, criticizing his decision, but rather, are criticizing his refusal to admit the truth about his real reason for refusing to play with a male-run female character.
Crimson_Concerto 07-29-07, 03:42 AM	Also, people like me ruin it for him; having just recently been 17, I can tell ya, I was about as irresponsible (though maybe not as immature) as it's possible to be without deliberately making bad decisions solely because they're bad.And were you elected the representation of all 17-year-olds? Or did you have to kill the previous one? :uh-huh: People are different from you and from each other. Get over it. :rofl: (also, I'm older than 17, so you can't really pull that card on me...)
Zaver 07-29-07, 12:49 PM	I don't think the people are really, at the core of it all, criticizing his decision, but rather, are criticizing his refusal to admit the truth about his real reason for refusing to play with a male-run female character. I believe you misinterpreted RuckusFox. He seemed to be telling the OP he should support the character wanting to play a woman because it is probably some odd attempt at declaring his homosexuality by pretending to have ovaries.
Count_Chumleigh 07-29-07, 01:49 PM	And were you elected the representation of all 17-year-olds? Or did you have to kill the previous one? :uh-huh: People are different from you and from each other. Get over it. :rofl: (also, I'm older than 17, so you can't really pull that card on me...) Oh, please, get off your high horse already. Everyone is a stupid, immature prig at 17. Everyone. Even you. Especially you. It's part of what it means to live, learn, and grow up: getting as far away from 17 (which, while pretty bad in and of itself, is paradise compared to 13) as you physically, mentally, and emotionally can. This holds true even for posters like aotrscommander and myself, who have been mentally 47 since the day we turned thirteen. I can truly say from personal experience that anyone who claims to have been "mature" as a teenager in fact spent his formative years grumpy, bored, alone, and getting stuffed into trashcans and rolled down the stairs. Not that this makes s4ndm4n's post look any better in my eye, mind you. Nor do I think the OP should by any means be required to play in a game with a player he doesn't want to, even if his reasons for not wanting to are a bit silly by my reckoning. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Mock26 07-29-07, 01:56 PM	Oh, please, get off your high horse already. Everyone is a stupid, immature prig at 17. Everyone. Even you. Especially you. It's part of what it means to live, learn, and grow up: getting as far away from 17 (which, while pretty bad in and of itself, is paradise compared to 13) as you physically, mentally, and emotionally While that may be true, there are varying levels of immature prig, even among 17 year olds. Some 17 year olds are mature enough to play a female character and not digress to fits of off-color perverted jokes and such. And some 17 year olds are not mature enough. Not everyone has the same level of immaturity (or maturity).
Sunic_Flames 07-29-07, 02:35 PM	While that may be true, there are varying levels of immature prig, even amont 17 year olds. Some 17 year olds are mature enough to play a female character and not digress to fits of off-color perverted jokes and such. And some 17 year olds are not mature enough. Not everyone has the same level of immaturity (or maturity). This reminds me. I know someone who's 17, and often plays female characters without being disruptive or otherwise abusive about it.
Count_Chumleigh 07-29-07, 02:39 PM	I suppose it's too late to point out that my "teenagers are immature lol" tangent was tongue-in-cheek and designed more to get people to stop taking their behavior as teenagers so seriously than spark any real debate now. Oh, well. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Crimson_Concerto 07-29-07, 02:59 PM	I suppose it's too late to point out that my "teenagers are immature lol" tangent was tongue-in-cheek and designed more to get people to stop taking their behavior as teenagers so seriously than spark any real debate now.Well, it would have been easier to tell if you put a "</sarcasm>" or ":rolleyes:" at the end or something denoting it as not serious, because as is, that post looks like so many kinda of wrong that I don't even know where to begin on it...
Kojiro James 07-29-07, 03:07 PM	I can truly say from personal experience that anyone who claims to have been "mature" as a teenager in fact spent his formative years grumpy, bored, alone, Oh... you've read my biography?
koiulpoi 07-29-07, 03:53 PM	I suppose it's too late to point out that my "teenagers are immature lol" tangent was tongue-in-cheek and designed more to get people to stop taking their behavior as teenagers so seriously than spark any real debate now. Oh, well. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh As Crimson Concerto pointed out as well, sarcasm doesn't come across as easily in written word as it does in spoken word. I was about to point out every single wrong point you'd made in that post before I read this one. It really made you look like a dick. But, since you were joking, all's well. Just make sure to be a little more tongue-in-cheek next time, and use the sarcasm tags. Back on topic, whenever I create a character, I think of what gender would better fit the concept. Some character ideas just work better as men, and some work better as women. If I can't decide, or I decide to break out of the mold and avoid stereotyping, I'll just flip a coin and roleplay what comes up. I'm currently playing a female winged elf monk, chosen by the coins of destiny. She's also bisexual (also chosen by rolling on a d20: 1: homosexual, 2-3 bisexual; 4-20 heterosexual. These numbers may be off for the general population, but it's what I use if I don't have that aspect of the character already figured out) and it's never caused any huge problems. Except when a fellow character asked mine and a female demigod for a threesome. I was about to not-so-politely decline when the demigod knocked him out for a couple days... As for another topic in this post, cross-playing (as people have been calling it) is far from a "cry for help" or an admittance one is gay. Believe me, I'm mature enough to play either gender, and secure enough that it doesn't bother me one bit. And besides, boys don't make me tingle.
aotrscommander 07-29-07, 06:29 PM	Oh, please, get off your high horse already. Everyone is a stupid, immature prig at 17. Everyone. Even you. Especially you. It's part of what it means to live, learn, and grow up: getting as far away from 17 (which, while pretty bad in and of itself, is paradise compared to 13) as you physically, mentally, and emotionally can. This holds true even for posters like aotrscommander and myself, who have been mentally 47 since the day we turned thirteen. I can truly say from personal experience that anyone who claims to have been "mature" as a teenager in fact spent his formative years grumpy, bored, alone, and getting stuffed into trashcans and rolled down the stairs. I didn't actually. Grumpy, maybe - but only because I'm naturally cantankerous, and I was that before and after puberty - occasionally alone, but by choice; because I'm a loner by nature. But not bored, ever. I am always capable amusing myself constructively. And certainly, I never got involve in any physical altrications (future Lich - can you imagine what I would have done to them if they had dared strike my personage?) Never stupid, and not immature, (though it depends depends on your definition of 'mature'; if it means "didn't misbehave and act like a total asshat" as opposed to "interested in social oojamawotsits and relationships" as it some times is, then I'm golden.) I am interested in exactly the same things as I was then; which in many quarters would be labelled as 'immature'. I've always said, the only thing different about since I was younger is I've gotten wiser,more calculating and more malevolent. I have never got giggly and immature about sex, seeing as a) my mother was a planning planning nurse, so from a very early age I understood about the plumbing and b) I have never been remotely interested. At. All. I didn't misbehave, and generally made Hermione Granger look like a delinquent ASBO-carrying Chav. Sickening, isn't it? But the sort of getting into trouble that most kids do I found utterly pointless and avoided simply because every one else did it. For me, 'every body else des it' is a reason to sepcifically avoid doing that and if possible do either the exact opposite or find a third way that nobody else does while shouting "Hah!" Not to mention that misbehaving would get me punished - and that was simply a waste of My. Time. And that was and is an unacceptable penalty. My time is of paramount importance, far more than anything else, I and do not dain to wates on things things that do not directly bring me benefits without significant resistance. Of course, I was, I suppose, planning something rebellious...but why waste effort on arguing with yourparents and peers when you can suddenly shout "screw you, laws of physics, nature and Reality! I'm a walking skeleton with super-powers now!" But, of course, all this merely serves to show how far I am from the human norm mentally, even then. Something that always gives me great satisifation. And remember that a good 80% of it was by deliberate choice not to be 'normal'. I have seen humanity, and frankly, you can keep it. I never was really human, not *taps skull* up here, not where it matters. EDit: Gyaah. Well, that serves me right form not characteristically reading the rest of the thread before replying. Plus, failed by Detect Sarcasm check, which is most ususual. Mind you, as you can probably gather, being classified, even broadly, with everyone else gets me all...twitchy. One of the few things that winds me up in an entirely serious way, actually.
Holy_Beholder 07-30-07, 12:08 AM	But the sort of getting into trouble that most kids do I found utterly pointless and avoided simply because every one else did it. For me, 'every body else does it' is a reason to specifically avoid doing that and if possible do either the exact opposite or find a third way that nobody else does while shouting "Hah!" Not to mention that misbehaving would get me punished - and that was simply a waste of My. Time. And that was and is an unacceptable penalty. My time is of paramount importance, far more than anything else, I and do not dain to waste on things things that do not directly bring me benefits without significant resistance. I agree with all of this. Getting into trouble is a waste of time, doesn't help with anything, and is compounded later by my parents(presumably). Sure, the actual rule breaking might be fun, but the repercussions suck. Keeping a clean nose is good, and the thrill from getting into trouble can be done by convincing other people to do it. There is no reason to get your hands dirty when you can get the idiots to do the dirty work for you. Then you can make them do all sorts of things, and talk them into hurting themselves, all without even a threat of getting into trouble. Sure breaking the rules is fun, but so is convincing some athlete bragger to try to do a "one handed clapper" push up. When they fail and hurt themselves, it is their fault. It is also extremely funny. I would know, I have done it on multiple occasions.
koiulpoi 07-30-07, 12:15 AM	And for everyone spouting about maturity, there's plenty of guys of all ages who go "heh heh, boobs". 17 or 57, it can happen either way.
Mock26 07-30-07, 12:17 AM	I agree with all of this. Getting into trouble is a waste of time, doesn't help with anything, and is compounded later by my parents(presumably). Sure, the actual rule breaking might be fun, but the repercussions suck. Keeping a clean nose is good, and the thrill from getting into trouble can be done by convincing other people to do it. There is no reason to get your hands dirty when you can get the idiots to do the dirty work for you. Then you can make them do all sorts of things, and talk them into hurting themselves, all without even a threat of getting into trouble. Sure breaking the rules is fun, but so is convincing some athlete bragger to try to do a "one handed clapper" push up. When they fail and hurt themselves, it is their fault. It is also extremely funny. I would know, I have done it on multiple occasions.This is especially true with underage drinking, an activity that is highly illegal and should never be done by anyone under the legal drinking age. But, if you sit on the sidelines, sipping some water or coca-cola, you will have a grand time watching your friends making fools of themselves, and with the advent of cell phones capable of taking videos, you can later show them! Of course, you should never attend any party where there is illegal underage drinking and you should only be there while in the process of calling the police. But, while waiting for the police to show up, sit down, relax, and watch your friends make fools of themselves (and catch it on video!).
High Octane 07-30-07, 02:37 AM	And for everyone spouting about maturity, there's plenty of guys of all ages who go "heh heh, boobs". 17 or 57, it can happen either way. Hehe, you said "boobs." :D
Optimator 07-30-07, 04:44 AM	Nothing says "Friendship" like calling the police on somebody. :rolleye2:
Mock26 07-30-07, 05:03 AM	Nothing says "Friendship" like calling the police on somebody. :rolleye2: Hey, just doing my part to warn kids of the hazards of breaking the law and giving tips on what they should do, to protect their innocence and virtue, if they find themselves in situations where the law is being broken. After all, we can't have young D&D players turning out to be social deviants, can we? :D