Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bortus 02-10-08, 05:55 PM	I'm creating a wizard for an upcomming game. What I would like to know is would it be better to make him a human for the extra feat or half elf for the sleep immunity and the +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment spells or effects?
Sinis 02-10-08, 06:13 PM	I'm creating a wizard for an upcomming game. What I would like to know is would it be better to make him a human for the extra feat or half elf for the sleep immunity and the +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment spells or effects? A human's extra feat and skill point per level are much stronger than anything the half-elf offers, in my opinion. I mean, most enchantment spells/effects (including the sleep ones) have a will save, and wizards already have a strong will save anyway. I doubt that half-elf racial bonus will matter, but the extra feat/skill points the human has might.
Shadowshimmer 02-10-08, 06:23 PM	In my opinion I would go for the Half Elf and not just for the sleep immunity and the +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment spells. The better vision and longer life are also benefits. My party got stuck in a tunnel that aged us 10 years every minute we were stuck in the tunnel. Well, the Elf, Half Elf and Dwarf were okay but the Human Figher aged about twenty years and that is a long time for a human.
DrMorganes 02-10-08, 08:03 PM	Aging - magical or otherwise - is rarely an issue in most games. PCs tend to die before they get old. Mechanically, the feat and skill point are a bigger boon in most cases. However, I think choosing your character based solely on mechanics misses part of the game. Start with a character concept which interests you and go from there. Honestly, if you don't like the character you'll be abandoning it in short order.
RobbyPants 02-10-08, 08:08 PM	Well over 90% of the time, you'll get much more milage out of the human's bonus feat and extra skill point than you would a half elves' traits. You may notice that most threads that begin with "what's the best race for X?" tend to have at least one response saying "when in doubt, choose human." That's because humans are generally good at everything. Also, there's a saying something to the effect of "anything a half elf can do a human or an elf can do better." With the exception of the Diplomacy and Gather Information bonuses, this is 100% true. Realistically, aside from RP fluff, there is next to no reason to play a half elf in 3.x, which is sad, really. So, again, I'll cast my vote for human.
Ariakus 02-10-08, 09:44 PM	I have to agree with the good Doctor Morganes, don't base your character on their bonuses...base them on what you like to role-play. If you need to have mechanical reasons, here's the benefit of humans: The only benefit a human gets over a half-elf is the extra Feat/Skill points. The half elf has more to offer than the resistance to sleep and charm...languages, Listen, Search, Spot checks, Low light vision, Diplomacy and Gather Info, Elven Blood... Role-playing a half elf to me, is much more interesting due to the extra inner turmoil that a human cannot add. This also depends on who raised them, elf or human (mostly human I know) but being raised by elves makes a deep character, not necessarily intellectually deep, but emotionally deep. Given the superiority complex the elves have instilled in them, and the aggressive and short lived human wrestling for control inside makes for a complex character. If you're going to base your character on overall power, you will find the human stronger... but the half elf has strengths to offer as well... a human can only see 40' at best in torchlight...a half elf sees 80'.... and they will spot and listen better within those 80'... when meeting an NPC, you can figure the half elf will have better results than the human in swaying them one way or another... So it's all up to what you want...mechanics? Role-play? titt-for-tat?
Sinis 02-10-08, 10:01 PM	I agree that race should be chosen from a roleplay standpoint, but in all fairness, the question was mechanical in nature.
Bortus 02-11-08, 12:43 PM	As far as the races go I have played both many times. The game we're starting has a small group of players so basically I'm more interested in the mechanics of the character than the role playing aspects. Basically I'd be interested in role playing either so it makes no difference to me. Due to the low number of players in the group I am trying to make the most effective wizard as possible.
Shadowshimmer 02-11-08, 01:44 PM	Well, I always played D & D to get away from reality and I never really wanted to play human because, hey that is what we all are. I wanted to become like somebody I only read or dreamed about. On that reason I would choose a Half Elf over a Human any day for any class. If you ware looking for the mechanical answer though, well numbers don't lie. The extra feat and skill numbers for the Human are really good in the long run, however if we are also talking straight numbers then there is always the exception to the rule or the long shot. Maybe this Half Elf would be the "exception."
Sinis 02-11-08, 02:46 PM	Well, I always played D & D to get away from reality and I never really wanted to play human because, hey that is what we all are. <snip> Strangely, I rarely play non-human races because I find them so disappointing, mechanically. I sometimes want to play a dwarf, but am repelled by the 20ft movement (though, if I were playing a fighter who would wear heavy armour, I wouldn't be so averse). I sometimes want to play the little folk (halflings and gnomes) but the 20ft movement turns me away again, and they have serious issues with grappling and other size related mechanics. It doesn't help that all their weapons are less effective as well. Their benefits aren't typically enough to make me reconsider. I sometimes want to play elves, but I find their bonuses (except the auto-search function) really lackluster, and the -2 Con is frightening. Lastly, I sometimes want to play half-elves, because they're like elves without the con penalty. And then I remember that they get nothing outside the right to pointy ears. And then I look at the human. A feat and skill points (I looove skill points by the way). Hot stuff. But what's totally neat? It's front loaded. It's the instant payoff. You get that feat now. The other races? I dunno if their stuff measures to that delicious, first level feat.
Giarc 02-11-08, 05:10 PM	See if your DM will accept a change to the half-elf. Most commonly it is the human skill point bonus added to the PHB half-elf traits. There is currently a thread about half-elf changes in the Races part of the forum.
AZNsupermarket 02-12-08, 01:35 AM	I'm surprised how mixed to responses have been. I would have thought that people would be overwhelmingly be screaming "Human! Human! Human!". I mean how often do sleep effects come out that a +2 bonus would actually be useful? Do you even plan in specializing in any social skills? Are you trying to get into any elf only prestige classes? Jeez... Everyone knows that humans are one of the best races in the PHB and Half-Elves are one of the worst. Maybe you would have been better off posting this in Character Optimization board, where people tend to answer from a pure power perspective and don't confuse their favorite race to roleplay with the strongest race for the class.
Count_Chumleigh 02-12-08, 02:00 AM	Role-playing a half elf to me, is much more interesting due to the extra inner turmoil that a human cannot add. You know--and I mean no offense to you, Ariakus, when I say this--but whenever I come across sentiments like that, I can't help but scratch my head. "Woe betide me," the half-elves seem to say, "for, lo, I am the poor, misbegotten scion of two pretty races that get along with each other and the rest of the world quite amicably, on the whole. Indeed, pity me for the social outcast, for I have these bonuses to social interaction skills accompanied by flavor text to the effect of 'Everyone really likes half-elves.' Woe is me and my lot!" I mean, just about any race can come up with more inner turmoil than half-elves have any right to, especially half-orcs. Hell, with a proper campaign setting, you can make a plain old human have plenty of inner turmoil over his or her parentage. Honestly, people who claim half-elves have any inner turmoil to speak of or be depicted as a social outcast solely due to their race really make me want to play a black man. Hmm, it would seem that I have strayed from the topic at hand. In any event, Bortus, let me add my voice to the "play whichever race fits your character concept best" crowd, with the caveat that the human bonus feat and skill points will be a lot more useful, on the whole, than immunity to sleep or resistance to enchantment: Your DM isn't likely to target the enchantment spells at the partywizard, after all. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
herceg 02-12-08, 02:26 AM	You know--and I mean no offense to you, Ariakus, when I say this--but whenever I come across sentiments like that, I can't help but scratch my head. "Woe betide me," the half-elves seem to say, "for, lo, I am the poor, misbegotten scion of two pretty races that get along with each other and the rest of the world quite amicably, on the whole. Indeed, pity me for the social outcast, for I have these bonuses to social interaction skills accompanied by flavor text to the effect of 'Everyone really likes half-elves.' Woe is me and my lot!" I mean, just about any race can come up with more inner turmoil than half-elves have any right to, especially half-orcs. Hell, with a proper campaign setting, you can make a plain old human have plenty of inner turmoil over his or her parentage. Honestly, people who claim half-elves have any inner turmoil to speak of or be depicted as a social outcast solely due to their race really make me want to play a black man. Hmm, it would seem that I have strayed from the topic at hand. In any event, Bortus, let me add my voice to the "play whichever race fits your character concept best" crowd, with the caveat that the human bonus feat and skill points will be a lot more useful, on the whole, than immunity to sleep or resistance to enchantment: Your DM isn't likely to target the enchantment spells at the partywizard, after all. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh Though you are indeed right in most things you wrote (especially mentioning half-orcs), IMHO the people mentioning half-elves inner turmoil don't mean that it comes from real "racist-ish" reasons. It is much more influenced by the different lifetime and therefore the different PoV / way of living of the two different race. Just like half-orcs "inner turmoil" comes from orcs seeing them weak, puny and ugly and humans seeing them stupid, agressive and ugly, half-elves are plaged by either growing up among people who find them childish, slow-ish and half-hearted, or among people who find them hot-headed, impatient and itchy. (There are a few soceity where half-elves are a race unto themselves, but that's pretty rare - except for like Eberron, where you see much more confident half-elves as it is natural there.)
Ariakus 02-12-08, 07:17 PM	Though you are indeed right in most things you wrote (especially mentioning half-orcs), IMHO the people mentioning half-elves inner turmoil don't mean that it comes from real "racist-ish" reasons. It is much more influenced by the different lifetime and therefore the different PoV / way of living of the two different race. Just like half-orcs "inner turmoil" comes from orcs seeing them weak, puny and ugly and humans seeing them stupid, agressive and ugly, half-elves are plaged by either growing up among people who find them childish, slow-ish and half-hearted, or among people who find them hot-headed, impatient and itchy. (There are a few soceity where half-elves are a race unto themselves, but that's pretty rare - except for like Eberron, where you see much more confident half-elves as it is natural there.) Exactly. And I didn't mean that there isn't inner turmoil in any other class (inner turmoil is where you want it...half elves have it already inbred by proxy), but they seem to be stricken with it due to their elven parents living so long, themselves living so long, and their human impatient "I want it now" mentality in general. The elves teach grace and beauty in all things natural and magical, whereas humans don't have time for such nonsense, it slows down their general greed for "More! More! More!" But these half elf/half human breeds have a tendency to love both worlds and neither world wants the other brought in...especially the elves. Half orcs to me are the worst at inner turmoil, as they aren't excepted by either race...sometimes the orcs will allow them to stay, but are spit upon as weaklings...humans let them live with them out of fear... there isn't any inner turmoil to that, especially because half orcs don't care if they're liked or not.
Count_Chumleigh 02-12-08, 07:56 PM	I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I just can't muster up much sympathy for a race held up as angsty, long-suffering outcasts when they receive sizeable bonuses to the very sort of social interaction skills that a social outcast shouldn't have: Diplomacy and Gather Information. Especially not when you've got the half-orc as the very next racial entry in the book--not only are half-orcs regarded as punier than their orc parents and dumber than their human parents, they actually are. Or you could look at almost any adventuring dwarf, who is practically a contradiction in terms given how singularly isolated, orderly, and homogeneous dwarf society is typically portrayed. This is not to say I think half-elves don't have some genuine emotional baggage to carry, but rather that it's going to be a lot more subdued than a half-orc's. A half-orc in human society is probably going to be a constant reminder of the orcish raiding party that came through the lands about nine months before he was born, and a half-orc coming from orc lands is lucky his parents didn't eat him. A half-elf? Even if he's regarded as childish and aloof by his human relatives and hot-headed and impatient by his elf relatives, still gets along with them better than even his full-blooded kin on either side of the family, thanks to his bonus to Diplomacy. To sum up--and I fully recognize that this is awfully long for a "let's agree to disagree" post--I think the fact that half-elves get a bonus to social interaction skills and incur no penalty to Charisma suggests that they are far too well-adjusted to truly be possessed of "inner turmoil." Dwarves and half-orcs, on the other hand, receive no such bonuses and in fact incur penalties to their Charisma scores, which suggests an altogether weaker sense of self and affinity for personal interaction--both signs of, if not "inner turmoil," then a reasonable facsimile. Cheers, Count Chumleigh
Entropy_Judge 02-13-08, 03:25 AM	I think a lot of the "inner turmoil" business that half-elves get saddled with is from Dragonlance, where humans and elves did not really get along, and while half-elves could pass as humans in human territory, it would be nearly impossible for them to pose as real elves.
Lincoln Hills 02-13-08, 03:38 PM	If you're planning to advance into a prestige class (unless that PrC is Arcane Archer, natch!) as soon as possible, the human is probably a better bet - the extra feat and skill points allow you to qualify for most PrCs sooner. If, on the other hand, you're sticking with Wizard, I think that the racial bonuses outweigh your losses. (As a wizard, don't think of it as "low-light vision": think of it as "improved targeting range".)
Sunic_Flames 02-13-08, 05:40 PM	Half elf flavor without being bogged down by the poor mechanics: Human, with 2 human birth parents (or elf with elf parents if you really want to eat a Con penalty... not recommended). Add a line in the backstory about one parent dying and the other remarrying a member of the other race when the character is still young. Raised by a human and an elf. Elaborate if desired. Done.
CryoSilver 02-13-08, 05:47 PM	Mechanics and roleplay need not be intertwined. Want to be a half elf but use human stats? Just SAY you are, and done. Especially if you're a wizard, say that you're pursuing your elven heritage. Ask your DM if you can age like a half-elf. That's usually so minor it doesn't matter anyways.
M-bark 02-14-08, 09:20 AM	Ask your DM if you can age like a half-elf. That's usually so minor it doesn't matter anyways. And if you may have pointy ears. That's a must.