Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 01-15-07, 03:02 PM	Hi folks, I had an idea for a "reformed criminal" who has "found God" (or, in this case, Yondolla) and has become a holy warrior. However, instead of being a knight in shining armor who crashes headlong into the enemy with sword and shield, this paladin uses her superior dexterity; tumble, hide, and move silently skills; and her sneak attack ability to strike at her foes with lethal guerrilla tactics. I have a couple of questions: 1) Is the notion of guerrilla warfare compatible with a Lawful Good alignment? 2) Is it possible to play a high DEX - low STR paladin who only wears light armor in order to continue to be able to take advantage of her rogue skills and still be effective? Stats: STR 10 DEX 17 CON 13 INT 16 WIS 11 CHA 18 (5d6 roll) Race: Strongheart halfling ECL: 5 (rogue 4/paladin 1) Obviously the 4 rogue levels would come first. This maximizes her skill points and gives her decent ranks in Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, and a few other key skills (such as 5 ranks in Jump to get the +2 to Tumble). It also reflects her background as a street urchin-turned-pickpocket. She'll end up with evasion, uncanny dodge, and SA +2d6. I'm not sure what her conversion experience will be yet, but she basically is called by Yondolla, repents, and becomes a paladin in the halfling goddess' service. I was thinking of giving her Luck of Heroes as her 1st level bonus feat -- I realize that all I am effectively doing is giving myself a +1 luck bonus to AC. Otherwise, I might as well just play a regular halfling and have the +1 to saving throws be innate with no bonus feat. So if anyone can think of something better, please let me know. I'm not sure what to take for my other 1st level feat, but I'll probably want Weapon Finesse at 3rd level. Then I was thinking of giving her a halfling riding dog as a mount and so all her feats while progressing as a paladin could be in the mounted combat tree. Please let me know what you folks think ... Oh, and books allowed are: Core, XPH, PHB2, and Complete series Thanks in advance! Cheers, Jonny EDIT: Perhaps the Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana would be better suited to this concept?
Dei 01-15-07, 03:57 PM	Though I may be alone in this I personally don't see anything wrong with a paladin that doesn't fight fair. Look at the Batman, someone that many people use as an example of the extreme lawful good. Just because he fights for a code and for the law, doesn't mean he fights fair, in fact he uses every dirty trick in the book if he can. Obviously you won't be able to go to quite this extreme as you're bound to honesty, not using poison and similar tactics but the concept is the same. Not all evil fights in plain view and most orders would be glad of a paladin that could follow it into the world of subterfuge and shadow. Nowhere does it say Paladins aren't allowed to use ambushes nor that they are not allowed to use abilities such as sneak attack. I'd find such a character refreshing after seeing so many of the stereotypical lawful stupid paladins. As for feats an excellent combination is weapon finesse, combat expertise, and then your pick of the improved feats. One of my favourites is improved feint. Nothing like getting sneak attack every round to make an opponent wish they'd invested some ranks in spot. Alternatively weapon finesse, dodge and then spring attack can make for an infuriating combatant, particularly if you can get a friendly caster to haste you before each combat. Hope this helps.
primemover003 01-15-07, 04:01 PM	Absolutely possible and good roleplaying fodder, temptation of falling back into her stealing ways. A Paladin can totally be sneaky, look at the Shadowbane Inquisitor & Stalker.
pukunui 01-15-07, 04:06 PM	Though I may be alone in this I personally don't see anything wrong with a paladin that doesn't fight fair. Look at the Batman, someone that many people use as an example of the extreme lawful good. Just because he fights for a code and for the law, doesn't mean he fights fair, in fact he uses every dirty trick in the book if he can. Obviously you won't be able to go to quite this extreme as you're bound to honesty, not using poison and similar tactics but the concept is the same. Not all evil fights in plain view and most orders would be glad of a paladin that could follow it into the world of subterfuge and shadow.Yes, that's true. I think it would be fair to say that Batman is Lawful Good. Thanks for pointing that out. I do think that the Paladin of Freedom could work well too ... as something of a freedom fighter, using her sneaky abilities and holy zeal to strike at the enemy trying to take away her people's freedom. But I suppose you could probably get that to work with a Lawful Good person as well (not only do they want to preserve their freedom but also their civil rights and the rule of law, etc etc). Nowhere does it say Paladins aren't allowed to use ambushes nor that they are not allowed to use abilities such as sneak attack. I'd find such a character refreshing after seeing so many of the stereotypical lawful stupid paladins. Right. I figured it wasn't against the paladin's code of contact to use "shady" tactics, but I was concerned that it didn't fit with the Lawful Good alignment ... As for feats an excellent combination is weapon finesse, combat expertise, and then your pick of the improved feats. One of my favourites is improved feint. Nothing like getting sneak attack every round to make an opponent wish they'd invested some ranks in spot. Alternatively weapon finesse, dodge and then spring attack can make for an infuriating combatant, particularly if you can get a friendly caster to haste you before each combat. Hope this helps.Hmm, yes. Improved Feint could be good. Thanks! p.s. I should have mentioned before that this character is intended for use in the Red Hand of Doom module, which entails having the PCs basically carry out a guerrilla war in an effort to stop an invading army of hobgoblins and other nasties ...
pukunui 01-15-07, 04:12 PM	Absolutely possible and good roleplaying fodder, temptation of falling back into her stealing ways. A Paladin can totally be sneaky, look at the Shadowbane Inquisitor & Stalker.Hey, yeah, I forgot about those PrCs. I'll have to take another look at them again. They might be good for later on ... I don't particularly care about being able to cast spells, and I was actually thinking of only taking about 10 levels of paladin (seeing as that's about when the good stuff stops). What weapons and armor should I look at using? Obviously I want something finesseable. A rapier? And maybe a mithril shirt and a buckler? I'd like to be able to use evasion, which means only light armor ...
Reversefigure4 01-15-07, 04:16 PM	First off, run the character by the DM. A sneaky guerrilla Paladin may be fine with you, but it might clash with their ideas about the Paladin's code. Secondly, you don't have to keep taking Paladin levels to be a 'Paladin'. I'd go Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Rogue Rest myself and just call myself a Paladin. You're a champion of Yondalla, just in your own way. Same character, much more effective execution. Going with a feinting, diving, sneak attacking Pally rather than a Mounted Combat one.
pukunui 01-15-07, 04:24 PM	First off, run the character by the DM. A sneaky guerrilla Paladin may be fine with you, but it might clash with their ideas about the Paladin's code.I am the DM ... I only have 3 players in my group, and we've come up with the idea of having a "collective PC" who fills in the role of the non-existent 4th person. I determine the character, but the players will "collectively" decide what s/he does during combat and such. So kind of like a cohort. Anyway, I thought this particular build could be very useful in RHoD as well as fun. My players don't really like paladins, so I was hoping to do something different and surprise them. Also, it's a great idea, and I too realize that other DMs might not like it, that's why I want to try it out in my own game. Secondly, you don't have to keep taking Paladin levels to be a 'Paladin'. I'd go Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Rogue Rest myself and just call myself a Paladin. You're a champion of Yondalla, just in your own way. Same character, much more effective execution. Going with a feinting, diving, sneak attacking Pally rather than a Mounted Combat one.That's a good point. She'll need 4 levels of pally to get into shadowbane inquisitor though ... and I do like the look of that prc. Also, you're right - mounted combat doesn't fit with the "guerrilla fighter" concept, although she might still get a riding dog to help her get to and from the fighting faster. She would just dismount and sneak around to hit her opponents where it really hurts. :D EDIT: Actually, no, I like the shadowbane stalker better. It fits more with the concept and doesn't require turn undead. I didn't particularly feel that the inquisitor's "smite" ability fit with the concept. She's a freedom fighter, not a rooter-outer of corruption ... ;) EDIT 2: One question about the shadowbane stalker -- if I only had her take 3 levels of pally before going into the PrC, would the +1 existing divine spellcasting still apply? Would the 1st level of stalker give me access to 0+bonus for high Cha 1st level paladin spells as though I'd taken a 4th level of pally? According to E-Tools, the answer is yes, but I've found that it isn't always right, so I just thought I'd check ...
pukunui 01-15-07, 06:17 PM	I think I might rearrange her stats like so: STR 15 DEX 17 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 11 CHA 17 She doesn't really need the extra skill points, but she could benefit from a higher strength, which would enable her to wield a non-finesseable weapon.