halfling with 14 ranks in hide, BUT CAN'T HIDE [Archive] - Wizards Community

halfling with 14 ranks in hide, BUT CAN'T HIDE [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Platinum
11-19-06, 06:58 PM My buddy plays a high dex halfling with max ranks in hide & move silently and items that boost these skills. He thinks he's a scout, but every monster in the game seems to see him coming a mile away due to tremorsense, blind sense, blind sight, or sometimes sent.

He's really frustrated about that. What can he do other than write-off the 34 skill points he "wasted" there over the last 3 years?
:confused:

Thanks!
SokenzanMarauder
11-19-06, 07:00 PM Check in to magical gear that lets him negate them? Maybe ask the DM to throw some 'normal' monsters at him so he doesn't feel so useless?

-Gene
epifreak
11-19-06, 07:23 PM Yeah, sounds like the DM is nerfing the halfling a bit, preventing him from shining. Talk to the guy. The odds are that he's just a little paranoid about letting things get out of hand and will listen to reason.
X-Codes
11-19-06, 07:29 PM Lords of Madness has the Darkstalker feat that forces creatures with extraordinary senses to still make spot checks despite them. It should be agreeable to everyone.
MareltEkiran
11-19-06, 11:57 PM First of all... Blindsight and Blindsense only automatically beat concealment. It does not beat hide checks that are made with the help of cover. For example, a bat's echolocation does not allow him to see a rogue hiding behind a rock, because the echo would only pick up the rock.

There is a spell called "remove scent" in the Spell Compendium. It's a level 1 spell for bards, druids, rangers and wizards/sorcerers and lasts 10 minutes per level. It should be easy to come by and can perhaps be researched into making an item. This should avoid creatures that detect by scent, as well as creatures that depend on scent location for their blindsense/blindsight.

I'll admit that tremorsense is hard to deal with, although a fly spell would solve most of the problems. Perhaps you can research an item that allows you to hover slightly over the ground (think Hover Boots from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time).
Krusk
11-20-06, 01:08 AM i had a dm doing the same thing, in an epic game. level 22 hide mod of 82 and got caught every time. then i found that feat in lords of madness and im set, definatly worth it.
draco1119
11-20-06, 03:00 AM I'll admit that tremorsense is hard to deal with, although a fly spell would solve most of the problems. Perhaps you can research an item that allows you to hover slightly over the ground (think Hover Boots from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time).
Boots of Levitation, maybe?
Derren S.
11-20-06, 03:27 AM Yes, Blindsight/Sense only works against concealment, not cover. But from my experiences most hiding gets done by concealment, not by cover. Especially when you move from one hiding place to another.

Imo just accept that there will be times where hiding is not possible and talk about the DM about that this happens all the time. Don't forget that hiding is a very strong ability and a maxed hide check can easily be exploited to the point of it beeing broken.
draco1119
11-20-06, 03:29 AM Wrong, at least partially.
To hide successfully you either need concealment or cover and when Blindsense/sight ignore concealment then you can't hide using concealment.

To quote the SRD

That means when it has a LoE to the rogue the creature can see him, hide or not.
But, since a Shadowdancer PrC has the ability to hide in plain sight, then this wouldn't affect one, correct? (I know the halfling's NOT a Shadowdancer, but having it as a PrC might be worth it.)
Derren S.
11-20-06, 03:33 AM But, since a Shadowdancer PrC has the ability to hide in plain sight, then this wouldn't affect one, correct? (I know the halfling's NOT a Shadowdancer, but having it as a PrC might be worth it.)

See, my edit. I misread MareltEkiran post. He is right (as he said the same as me ;) )

And a shadowdancer still needs shadow (= concealment) to hide. That means Blindsense will affect them normally, making it impossible to hide even with Hide in Plain Sight. (They still are hidden and get 50% concealment against creatures with Blindsense, but the creature does know where the Shadowdancer is)
crossp
11-20-06, 03:52 AM I'll admit that tremorsense is hard to deal with, although a fly spell would solve most of the problems. Perhaps you can research an item that allows you to hover slightly over the ground (think Hover Boots from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time).

Horseshoes of the zephyr do exactly that. (They also have other fun uses) The question is... is he tough enough to endure nails through the feet just to sneak better?
MareltEkiran
11-20-06, 04:23 AM Horseshoes of the zephyr do exactly that. (They also have other fun uses) The question is... is he tough enough to endure nails through the feet just to sneak better?

There is no problem in this world that cannot be solved by proper applications of Sovereign Glue, my friend.

But seriously, given the properties and price of those things and given that the boots of levitation cost 7,500, I'd say that something along the same price range should be fine. Perhaps include a clause that it doesn't help you cover rough terrain or allow you to walk over water (although it would help against icy surfaces or the Grease spell).
Derren S.
11-20-06, 08:21 AM There is no problem in this world that cannot be solved by proper applications of Sovereign Glue, my friend.

Yes, but where do you wear the other two?
SunTzuWarmaster
11-20-06, 08:40 AM You give them to whoever else you don't want tracked (barbarian, maybe?).

TremorSense only works in VERY short ranges (longest I have seen is 30 feet), he shouldn't be having a huge problem with this, being that if you are 25 feet away, you can still sneak attack.
Derren S.
11-20-06, 09:04 AM You give them to whoever else you don't want tracked (barbarian, maybe?).

You have to wear all four of them.
draco1119
11-20-06, 09:43 AM So Sovereign Glue the remaining two to the first two. Or to the halfling's hands... (Hey! Nobody said he still had to be able to disarm traps!)
Kradlo
11-20-06, 10:00 AM Heck, you can't hide in shadows when the opponents have darkvision. Learn to use cover.

And talk to the GM about his monsters. A good GM should very his encounters so that sometimes one character shines, then another time is hindered. If the character relies on sneaking, the GM should not have every encounter have tremorsense, etc.

That's like the GM that only throws undead, oozes, and constructs at the rogue, so that his sneak attack ability is completely useless. Mix it up a bit.
razorboy
11-20-06, 10:55 AM Our party's rogue ran into a same dilemma. Here's what we suggested for him to do/acquire:
1) Gwairon's Boots (sp?) (Magic of Faerun). 5000 gp piece of equipment that every rogue should have - cannot be tracked by mundane means or by scent. Period full stop.
2) Tremorscence affects only creatures touching the floor, investing in boots of flying or something similar will prevent that.
3) Tell your DM to double-check scent and blindsense abilities, because it sounds to me that he doesn't know how they work. Scent does not reveal a person in hiding unless the person with scent is within 5 feet of the hiding person. Even then, the person with scent knows the correct square but still does not automatically see the hiding person. Blindsense same thing, but the person with blindsense does not need to be within 30 feet.
4) There are spells in Spell Compendium and Complete Arcane/Complete Adventurer that let one hide even from creatures with blindsense. Make a permanent or command word-activated item using that spell and your rogue is set. There's also a spell in Spell Compendium that let one hide from the dragon's blindsense ability (although it only affects dragons). I don't have the book on me atm so I don't know the exact spell name.
5) A ring of invisibility does not only make on invisible, it also adds +10 to rogue's Hide. Every rogue should invest one, even if he doesn't plan on becoming invisible.
6) Finally, spells that make one incorporeal are amazing for a party scout. No blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense or scent can detect an incorporeal creature. Moving through walls and being immune to non-magical damage is an added bonus. :)
Platinum
11-20-06, 08:29 PM Thanks for the help. There's some good ideas.

The mods played are the ones downloaded from wizards and the DM varies a lot.

At our level, monsters just have a lot of cheese. I guess he needs to get some cheese too, but most of the items listed are not found in the mods and only the most basic items (+2 max) are available without encountering them in the mod.
:(

We can't even craft an item unless we've see one unless it's found in the DMG. :rolleyes:

Is there any cheese there?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Platinum 11-19-06, 06:58 PM	My buddy plays a high dex halfling with max ranks in hide & move silently and items that boost these skills. He thinks he's a scout, but every monster in the game seems to see him coming a mile away due to tremorsense, blind sense, blind sight, or sometimes sent. He's really frustrated about that. What can he do other than write-off the 34 skill points he "wasted" there over the last 3 years? :confused: Thanks!
SokenzanMarauder 11-19-06, 07:00 PM	Check in to magical gear that lets him negate them? Maybe ask the DM to throw some 'normal' monsters at him so he doesn't feel so useless? -Gene
epifreak 11-19-06, 07:23 PM	Yeah, sounds like the DM is nerfing the halfling a bit, preventing him from shining. Talk to the guy. The odds are that he's just a little paranoid about letting things get out of hand and will listen to reason.
X-Codes 11-19-06, 07:29 PM	Lords of Madness has the Darkstalker feat that forces creatures with extraordinary senses to still make spot checks despite them. It should be agreeable to everyone.
MareltEkiran 11-19-06, 11:57 PM	First of all... Blindsight and Blindsense only automatically beat concealment. It does not beat hide checks that are made with the help of cover. For example, a bat's echolocation does not allow him to see a rogue hiding behind a rock, because the echo would only pick up the rock. There is a spell called "remove scent" in the Spell Compendium. It's a level 1 spell for bards, druids, rangers and wizards/sorcerers and lasts 10 minutes per level. It should be easy to come by and can perhaps be researched into making an item. This should avoid creatures that detect by scent, as well as creatures that depend on scent location for their blindsense/blindsight. I'll admit that tremorsense is hard to deal with, although a fly spell would solve most of the problems. Perhaps you can research an item that allows you to hover slightly over the ground (think Hover Boots from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time).
Krusk 11-20-06, 01:08 AM	i had a dm doing the same thing, in an epic game. level 22 hide mod of 82 and got caught every time. then i found that feat in lords of madness and im set, definatly worth it.
draco1119 11-20-06, 03:00 AM	I'll admit that tremorsense is hard to deal with, although a fly spell would solve most of the problems. Perhaps you can research an item that allows you to hover slightly over the ground (think Hover Boots from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time). Boots of Levitation, maybe?
Derren S. 11-20-06, 03:27 AM	Yes, Blindsight/Sense only works against concealment, not cover. But from my experiences most hiding gets done by concealment, not by cover. Especially when you move from one hiding place to another. Imo just accept that there will be times where hiding is not possible and talk about the DM about that this happens all the time. Don't forget that hiding is a very strong ability and a maxed hide check can easily be exploited to the point of it beeing broken.
draco1119 11-20-06, 03:29 AM	Wrong, at least partially. To hide successfully you either need concealment or cover and when Blindsense/sight ignore concealment then you can't hide using concealment. To quote the SRD That means when it has a LoE to the rogue the creature can see him, hide or not. But, since a Shadowdancer PrC has the ability to hide in plain sight, then this wouldn't affect one, correct? (I know the halfling's NOT a Shadowdancer, but having it as a PrC might be worth it.)
Derren S. 11-20-06, 03:33 AM	But, since a Shadowdancer PrC has the ability to hide in plain sight, then this wouldn't affect one, correct? (I know the halfling's NOT a Shadowdancer, but having it as a PrC might be worth it.) See, my edit. I misread MareltEkiran post. He is right (as he said the same as me ;) ) And a shadowdancer still needs shadow (= concealment) to hide. That means Blindsense will affect them normally, making it impossible to hide even with Hide in Plain Sight. (They still are hidden and get 50% concealment against creatures with Blindsense, but the creature does know where the Shadowdancer is)
crossp 11-20-06, 03:52 AM	I'll admit that tremorsense is hard to deal with, although a fly spell would solve most of the problems. Perhaps you can research an item that allows you to hover slightly over the ground (think Hover Boots from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time). Horseshoes of the zephyr do exactly that. (They also have other fun uses) The question is... is he tough enough to endure nails through the feet just to sneak better?
MareltEkiran 11-20-06, 04:23 AM	Horseshoes of the zephyr do exactly that. (They also have other fun uses) The question is... is he tough enough to endure nails through the feet just to sneak better? There is no problem in this world that cannot be solved by proper applications of Sovereign Glue, my friend. But seriously, given the properties and price of those things and given that the boots of levitation cost 7,500, I'd say that something along the same price range should be fine. Perhaps include a clause that it doesn't help you cover rough terrain or allow you to walk over water (although it would help against icy surfaces or the Grease spell).
Derren S. 11-20-06, 08:21 AM	There is no problem in this world that cannot be solved by proper applications of Sovereign Glue, my friend. Yes, but where do you wear the other two?
SunTzuWarmaster 11-20-06, 08:40 AM	You give them to whoever else you don't want tracked (barbarian, maybe?). TremorSense only works in VERY short ranges (longest I have seen is 30 feet), he shouldn't be having a huge problem with this, being that if you are 25 feet away, you can still sneak attack.
Derren S. 11-20-06, 09:04 AM	You give them to whoever else you don't want tracked (barbarian, maybe?). You have to wear all four of them.
draco1119 11-20-06, 09:43 AM	So Sovereign Glue the remaining two to the first two. Or to the halfling's hands... (Hey! Nobody said he still had to be able to disarm traps!)
Kradlo 11-20-06, 10:00 AM	Heck, you can't hide in shadows when the opponents have darkvision. Learn to use cover. And talk to the GM about his monsters. A good GM should very his encounters so that sometimes one character shines, then another time is hindered. If the character relies on sneaking, the GM should not have every encounter have tremorsense, etc. That's like the GM that only throws undead, oozes, and constructs at the rogue, so that his sneak attack ability is completely useless. Mix it up a bit.
razorboy 11-20-06, 10:55 AM	Our party's rogue ran into a same dilemma. Here's what we suggested for him to do/acquire: 1) Gwairon's Boots (sp?) (Magic of Faerun). 5000 gp piece of equipment that every rogue should have - cannot be tracked by mundane means or by scent. Period full stop. 2) Tremorscence affects only creatures touching the floor, investing in boots of flying or something similar will prevent that. 3) Tell your DM to double-check scent and blindsense abilities, because it sounds to me that he doesn't know how they work. Scent does not reveal a person in hiding unless the person with scent is within 5 feet of the hiding person. Even then, the person with scent knows the correct square but still does not automatically see the hiding person. Blindsense same thing, but the person with blindsense does not need to be within 30 feet. 4) There are spells in Spell Compendium and Complete Arcane/Complete Adventurer that let one hide even from creatures with blindsense. Make a permanent or command word-activated item using that spell and your rogue is set. There's also a spell in Spell Compendium that let one hide from the dragon's blindsense ability (although it only affects dragons). I don't have the book on me atm so I don't know the exact spell name. 5) A ring of invisibility does not only make on invisible, it also adds +10 to rogue's Hide. Every rogue should invest one, even if he doesn't plan on becoming invisible. 6) Finally, spells that make one incorporeal are amazing for a party scout. No blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense or scent can detect an incorporeal creature. Moving through walls and being immune to non-magical damage is an added bonus. :)
Platinum 11-20-06, 08:29 PM	Thanks for the help. There's some good ideas. The mods played are the ones downloaded from wizards and the DM varies a lot. At our level, monsters just have a lot of cheese. I guess he needs to get some cheese too, but most of the items listed are not found in the mods and only the most basic items (+2 max) are available without encountering them in the mod. :( We can't even craft an item unless we've see one unless it's found in the DMG. :rolleyes: Is there any cheese there?