Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AmanitaEata 07-18-06, 04:01 PM	Hi. I have an awkward problem that is putting pressure on the group I game with. We game with someone that has no arms and only hooks for hands. (Not "pirate" hooks, those claw thingees.) This is a problem because it takes so long for her to roll dice that sometimes everyone takes a break and waits for her to yell that she has finally picked a d20 up and is ready to roll. She refuses to use an electronic roller and won't let others roll for her. She's very stubborn like this. WHAT SHOULD I DO???? Thanks in advance.
KirkBb 07-18-06, 04:07 PM	I have goofed off and used my feet to roll before, it really only takes a second fer you to half kick/lift the dice, and you are able to keep the taco you are eating in your hand.
PenderGrass 07-18-06, 04:08 PM	Maybe you should ask her to buy those false prosthetic hands? Or ask her to make a bunch of rolls before each game? :dragon: ****
AmanitaEata 07-18-06, 04:15 PM	I have goofed off and used my feet to roll before, it really only takes a second fer you to half kick/lift the dice, and you are able to keep the taco you are eating in your hand. We've considered this, but there are ... ummm, issues with her using her feet. If you understand what I'm getting at. She's a sweet enough woman, but it's really put a damper on our games, since even a simple Hide check can force a five-minute break. Her mother would be really crushed if we asked her not to play anymore, though, and probably wouldn't let us use the house anymore.
Zuj 07-18-06, 04:19 PM	Get a yahtzee cup (any cup will do), and she can position it at the end of the table. She can then slide the dice she wants to use into the cup without too much difficulty (using an arm if necessary). After that, she can roll the dice out of the cup. Problem solved.
KirkBb 07-18-06, 04:19 PM	OK, then try giving her a cup with a handle on it, its pretty easy to grip the handle with the prosthetics if I remember correctly, and even easier to scoop up dice into the cup. granted it will still take about 30s or so to scoop and roll, maybe a whole minute if she always has to pick up the cup again.
Zuj 07-18-06, 04:20 PM	All I can say is don't disclude her from your games for something like this. Try to be as sensitive with the issue as possible. No one should be kicked out of the game for circumstances that aren't really their fault.
Salty_Boy 07-18-06, 04:22 PM	Get her a small plastic cup. She may not want anyone else to roll for her, but surely she can't object to someone else putting the appropriate dice in the cup for her. Just help her put the cup in her hand at the start of the session and drop dice in at appropriate times. [stupid internet and its inability to let me send off the best ideas first] Or take PenderGrass's suggestion and sit down with her outside the session to roll a bunch of times and just record them on a sheet and use them one-by-one as needed. Or just cut everyone's hands off so you're all even.
Thromvald 07-18-06, 04:24 PM	I actually have prosthetic hands. I lost most of my left arm, and my right hand in a motocycle accident. It took awhile, but you DO become proficient with the infernal contraptions... I used the Kingsly hook w/ lyred fingers...I had no problem at all rolling dice, moving miniatures, using pencil and paper...after some practice that is. You may suggest that she try the Kingsly hook with lyred fingers.. My 2cp
AmanitaEata 07-18-06, 04:32 PM	We tried going the "cup" route one evening. We used coffee mugs since they have handles, but the poor girl dropped and broke two of them. (She's kind of new at this.) It wasn't really a big deal to us, but her mother was so furious she slapped her about the face and called her degrading things -- right in front of us! Needless to say, it was a terribly awkward experience for all involved, and she's been very sheepish about trying out the cups (or anything new, for that matter) ever since. We all hate her mother, but there is little we can do about the woman. She is cruel and spiteful. We just want to play our game in peace. And help the girl, too, of course.
SokenzanMarauder 07-18-06, 04:38 PM	We tried going the "cup" route one evening. We used coffee mugs since they have handles, but the poor girl dropped and broke two of them. (She's kind of new at this.) It wasn't really a big deal to us, but her mother was so furious she slapped her about the face and called her degrading things -- right in front of us!Wow, if I were there chances are I'd have drop-kicked her mom. What a wench to do something like that to the poor girl! Well, you could always try taking a washcloth and making a little net out of it on one of her hands and just letting her scoop the dice into it, shake, and roll. -Gene
PenderGrass 07-18-06, 04:47 PM	Maybe you should just have her knock dice off the table as her "roll"? Also, the mother is probably just stressed-out, after all if the daughter is new to all this she is probably still dealing with all the medical bills. Add on top of that, the cost of a whole new set of coffee cups and you never know what will make people snap. :dragon: ****
sizbut 07-18-06, 05:01 PM	I just got back into DnD this year and bulk order a horde of dice from Chessex. The various sets all came in large rectangular clear plastic boxes (about 1x1x2 inches). For a box containing one dice, just picking the box up and rotating it 180 degrees is a good and random as any across the table roll. Having the dice in a container may make it easier to handle and it will prevent dice escaping and having to be retrieved. In order to speed up our game, in combat we throw the attack dice and the damage dice simultaneously. Being ultra sad I also have my dice color coded, for example if using a long sword I need to roll the red set (D20 and D8). So it would just require the right sized clear container for two dice. [and you can write useful things on the container like "long sword +7 hit/+4 dmg" - oh dear, I think I'm talking myself into using dice containers for rolls, super geek]
Zuj 07-18-06, 05:59 PM	Don't use coffee cups; use plastic. They aren't worth anything, and they can be dropped and not broken.
xvthreetwoonevx 07-18-06, 06:04 PM	-distinctly remembers Amanita being a troll.- However. If this is actual truthery, then yeah, what everyone else said.
kelvinaw273 07-18-06, 06:39 PM	Use a lightweight plastic cup with a handle, a square one if you can obtain it. Lie the cup on it's side, she can scoop the dice into the cup, throw and continue!
Rancorous_Fool 07-18-06, 07:08 PM	A guy in my group uses a plastic cup out of sheer laziness. But, more importantly i would like to reiterate not excluding her. Her mother isn't making things any easier. Having a couple of understanding gaming buddies would mean a lot.
Thiez 07-18-06, 07:09 PM	Why do you need to pick them up anyway? When I'm lazy, I just hit the dice. Doesn't really get different results than rolling normally, and I imagine it isn't very difficult with hooks.
Bruunwald 07-18-06, 07:47 PM	-distinctly remembers Amanita being a troll.- However. If this is actual truthery, then yeah, what everyone else said. Yeah, the story is conveniently changing, as if to keep the thread going. Her face-slapping mother would be heartbroken if you didn't play in her house anymore? I smell something... Anyway, benefit of the doubt, we all get our dice in clear plastic boxes (as someone else has mentioned). Some at our table had the nasty habit of rolling them in there (very loud, very annoying) until I banned the practice. Get a few of those together, and prepack them with combinations of dice, such as a d20 and a d8, or whatever damage her weapons do. Giving the box a good shake should roll all the necessary dice at once, all together.
Gneral Kass 07-18-06, 09:05 PM	Here's one thing I did for a young kid at the local Boys & Girls Club. We took about 10 rubber bands and wrapped them around each of the "hooks" and packed them closely together. This way when he tried to grab the dice the rubber bands would help drip the dice better. He had absolutely no problem after that. *shurg* Simple, but it works.
Kradlo 07-18-06, 10:02 PM	If the mom goes ballistic again, call Child Protective Services. Seriously, no game is worth child abuse. As for the dice rolling, the plastic cup suggestion is the ideal choice. Cheap, and you can add whatever you need to make it easier for her to grip.
draco1119 07-19-06, 01:08 AM	If the mom goes ballistic again, call Child Protective Services. Seriously, no game is worth child abuse. As for the dice rolling, the plastic cup suggestion is the ideal choice. Cheap, and you can add whatever you need to make it easier for her to grip. Unless, of couse, the disabled (sorry, but I never have been, and probably never will be, PC...) gamer is an adult. In either case, you're probably better off calling the police, s it's either child abuse (a criminal offense) or domestic battery (also a criminal offense). In terms of the actual topic of this thread, if she's this new at being disabled, that also explains the desire for people not to help, as she is used to being self-sufficient, and still wants to be. As time goes on, either she'll be more proficient at using the hooks, or she'll get "hands", or she'll be more willing to accept help.
PenderGrass 07-19-06, 03:14 AM	Here's one thing I did for a young kid at the local Boys & Girls Club. We took about 10 rubber bands and wrapped them around each of the "hooks" and packed them closely together. This way when he tried to grab the dice the rubber bands would help drip the dice better. He had absolutely no problem after that. *shurg* Simple, but it works. An excellent suggestion and one well worth taking. :dragon: ****
ShadowDragon8685 07-19-06, 03:22 AM	I smell a big fat turkey with the face-slapping heartbroken mother. But in lieu of violating the CoC with cries of "Troll! Troll! Get the acid sprayer!", I'll post something semi-constructive. As said before, if you observe more of the abuse, call CPS or the police, whichever is more appropriate. To solve the dice thing, use dice cups or containers. Also, what the hell kind of floors are you playing above and what kind of coffee mugs were they? Most of the coffee cups I know could survive any fall onto linoleum short of being spiked.
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-19-06, 04:11 AM	first off if your not trolling then those mugs better have been made of emerald or something otherwise you may need to make a call, or al least ask the girl if this kind of thing (the hitting that is) happens often and if so make the aformentioned call. also just put her dice in a can or something and have her give it a push, dice roll, she does it no help required and time is saved. conclution everyone wins. however if you are a troll: this is not something to joke about. Assult is a verry real and verry illeagle thing, and many peaple may be sensitive about their use of prostetic limbs. If you are a troll do us all a favor and get a life.
AmanitaEata 07-19-06, 10:01 AM	The fact that so many of you people have chosen to turn this thread into a flamefest when it involves such a delicate and sensitive situation is nothing less than tremendously disappointing. I truly expected better of my fellow gamers. For all our cries of wanting our hobby to be accepted, we can’t even muster up acceptance among ourselves. Terribly disappointing. Thanks to all who have provided constructive advice. I’ll weigh some of your suggestions and post more a bit later. My hope is that we can smooth this situation out in a way that doesn’t make this poor girl feel bad about what she’s going through. As for the rest of you, if you can’t muster up the decency to show respect for the disabled, then shame on you. At least have the humanity to keep your flames to yourselves.
Varia 07-19-06, 10:37 AM	They've been perfectly accepting,supportive and respectful of the disabled in this thread. Not one flame. They havent been accepting, supportive and respectful of YOU, because they doubt the truthfulness of your story. Entirely different issue. And frankly, I dont believe you either, especially after that last, ever so cute, post. Shoo. Varia
AmanitaEata 07-19-06, 11:11 AM	If you can't remain on topic and keep your insults to yourself, Varia, I'm sure the moderators will be glad to help you out in that regard.
Lafarallin 07-19-06, 11:22 AM	Hahaha...you guys entertain me.
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-19-06, 11:23 AM	If you can't remain on topic and keep your insults to yourself, Varia, I'm sure the moderators will be glad to help you out in that regard. I was going to stay out of this, but you went off topic first when you posted about how unhappy you where about the "flamefest" that I fail to see, and only spoke of the topic after doeing so, and further more Varia did not insult you once, unless you consider responding to your coments in an honest and polite manor as an insult. all you have done is make me think you are a troll and as such I will do you a favor and get one of the moderators you spoke of. Good day sir
OravennasBrother 07-19-06, 11:30 AM	Had a blind woman play in my group once. She had an electronic dice rolling machine and it was atrocious - the program had a pathetic algorithm which would generate similar numbers in a row. If it was rolling low, it rolled consistently low; high and it was consistently high. Never a good range. It took an excessive lengt of time (not 5 minutes, but noticeably longer than anyone elses rolling dice) The woman refused to let someone else roll for her, but when her machine 'broke' was willing to let someone else read the results of the rolls. She was however troublesome in oter ways and we eventually asked her to not come back. Why were we so heartless? Because we game to have fun; the woman was just someone who had joined our group, not a friend from elsewhere. We run a game not social services. Finally that particular woman was a pain as a player - even if she had been able to see we would have booted her. SO the relevance is - do you like the girl so much you are willing to sacrifice a great deal of your game time to her handicap? IF so then you asked for it, and when you end up having to drop the gamer later, don't say you were'nt warned.
Edymnion 07-19-06, 11:38 AM	I'm also highly skeptical of this story. Coffee mugs do not break that easily. I've seen even cheap coffee mugs get thrown across rooms and only break off the handle. There is simply no way I'm going to be convinced that someone sitting down to play D&D (seriously, who stands up to roll?) could drop a coffee mug and have it break. And a mother beating their handicapped child for having something slip out of their prosthetic hands? And the overreaction claiming people were flaming the handicapped? Now I won't go so far as calling the OP a troll, but I would say that the entire story in this thread was fabricated for the purpose of getting people riled up over it...
AmanitaEata 07-19-06, 12:07 PM	I was going to stay out of this, but you went off topic first Wrong. There was no reason for you, or any other person in this thread, to start tossing around baseless accusations without provocation. It would have been far easier for you to just move on than to attempt to derail the thread with your snide and insensitive innuendos. So, on-topic (assuming you can do that)… I understand the concern some of you folks have about her mother, but calling the authorities is just not an option in this case. I can’t really say any more than that. Sizbut, your suggestion seems the easiest and most reasonable so far. I bet if the dice were just sitting on an open box – say, the top of a boxed module set – she could just “shake” it once or twice so the dice tumbles around. Wouldn’t work for a D6 or D4, but for D20 rolls that might pull off the trick. We’re playing on Saturday. I think I’m going to gently suggest this, or maybe even just set up the box and see how she reacts. If it goes smoothly, that’s one problem solved. Thanks!
PenderGrass 07-19-06, 12:33 PM	first off if your not trolling then those mugs better have been made of emerald or something otherwise you may need to make a call...... So, what you are saying is that a coffee mug of this value gets broken and it is okay to beat a handicapped girl with no hands. Perfectly fine. Only if it is a cheaper value mug is it NOT okay to beat her? How about it is not okay to beat an armless girl at all - ever? How about that? Not very humane of you and I would hate to see how your house is run. :dragon: ****
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-19-06, 12:47 PM	Wrong. There was no reason for you, or any other person in this thread, to start tossing around baseless accusations without provocation. It would have been far easier for you to just move on than to attempt to derail the thread with your snide and insensitive innuendos. look we are not calling you a troll (or at least no all of us) we just think it sounds more and more trollish as time goes on. If you are not a troll rise above then it don't get mad about it, smart peaple don't get mad when called stupid because they know they are not, and non-trolls know they are not trolls so don't get defensive. Also if you take the time to read your posts, they look trollish so don't be so suprised when peaple you don't know call you troll. if your not a troll I'm sorry but I call them as I see them. So, on-topic (assuming you can do that)… my first post (#22) was on topic? do you not read your own thread? as for your problem with d6's and d4's just shake the boy up and down aswell as back and forth, if that is difficult just make a stack of books and have her slide the dice off the edge of it, and set them back up for her when your freind is done.
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-19-06, 12:49 PM	So, what you are saying is that a coffee mug of this value gets broken and it is okay to beat a handicapped girl with no hands. Perfectly fine. Only if it is a cheaper value mug is it NOT okay to beat her? How about it is not okay to beat an armless girl at all - ever? How about that? Not very humane of you and I would hate to see how your house is run. :dragon: **** no I was trying to make the point that the mother better have a good reason (which in this case is dificuty to think of) , but you are correct I did put it stupidly.
Sereno 07-19-06, 12:55 PM	For a box containing one dice, just picking the box up and rotating it 180 degrees is a good and random as any across the table roll. Having the dice in a container may make it easier to handle and it will prevent dice escaping and having to be retrieved. An addition to sizbut's idea; put one each of her dice in a plastic container that dice usually come in. Attach a little loop of speaker wire at the top; you could just attach it with tape or by drilling little holes in the top and tying it in place. All she'd need to do is pick up the box by the loop of wire and drop the whole thing. Regardless of how it comes down, the die would bounce or roll around and be readable when it comes to a stop. Instead of trying to manipulate a nearly round d20 -- or, even worse, a pointy d4 -- she'd just have to pick up the appropriate box by it's "handle". She'd still have the independence and personal satisfaction of "rolling her own" without the lengthy gaming delay. Also, no amount of stress or medical bills justifies physically assaulting someone for breaking a coffee mug! :weep: Any chance you can move this game somewhere away from this abusive cretin? The handicapped girl just might benefit from being out of a toxic environment for a while!!!
Gedrin 07-19-06, 01:38 PM	All the ideas I had at first have already been mentioned: Better grips seem the best idea. The fingers are what I see most commonly used and while nothing compared to a functional pair of human fingers, people do develop significant proficiency with them. I've seen guys who can roll D4's with chopsticks (and you try picking up a D4 with a pair of chopsticks), so I'm guessing this is a practice thing. In fact, I bet learning to roll all the differently shaped dice would be great practice for getting good with the prosthetics. In the end, she'll have to learn how to do this anyway. Dice boxes or cups seem like a good, short term solution. Same for electronic rollers. A box that she could knock dice around inside also seems like a practical short term solution. I walk around on crutches and DM. If I have to leave the table for drinks, snacks or a bio break, I make sure it's durring party talk time or when we're taking a break because I know I'll take a little extra time. If you've got some sort of an issue, be it a physical handicap or that you're a smoker, you should figure out a way to work things out so the fun of other's isn't impacted. Planning out your rolls and setting things up durring the rest of a combat round would be apropriate. However, I've got to say that I doubt the veracity of the story as well. Not only because of the slap, but because of othe basic gaming issues. If someone lacks the dexterity to pick up a die and drop it...there's no way they're keeping track of their money, arrows, XP or HP with a pen or pencil. Here's hoping the search by name function will be back in the new forums.
PenderGrass 07-19-06, 01:55 PM	However, I've got to say that I doubt the veracity of the story as well. Not only because of the slap, but because of othe basic gaming issues. If someone lacks the dexterity to pick up a die and drop it...there's no way they're keeping track of their money, arrows, XP or HP with a pen or pencil. Here's hoping the search by name function will be back in the new forums. I would assume, since the mention of electronic rollers were mentioned, that she is using some sort of laptop (or other type of device) to track her character. If she isn't - then she should. :dragon: ****
Millennium 07-19-06, 02:17 PM	Your local gaming store is likely to have actual specialized dice cups. They're usually made of stiff leather and felt, which is hard to break while still being quite light and also provides enough friction to get a good grip. You might want to consider getting her one as a gift; they're not expensive, and although a dice cup wouldn't necessarily function any better than a regular one, there's a certain added formality that your friend may appreciate. They have the advantage of not being a makeshift solution: these things are actually made for rolling dice. As for the girl's mother, the situation certainly smells very wrong, but it's not implausible. Under extreme stress -and dealing with a daughter who has recently lost both arms is certainly quite stressful- people can do things they might not otherwise do to the people they love. This is in no way intended to justify the situation, only to provide a plausible scenario where it could take place. I will assume that you have your reasons for not calling the authorities, but I hope you have thought long and hard about them. Situations like these can get extremely nasty, and the only way to protect your own mental health is to carefully consider the situation until there's no doubt in your mind that you are taking the correct course of action. Would calling CPS really create such a dire situation that staying in an abusive home is actually preferable? It very well might; I can't say for certain, and I'm not asking you to convince me either way. You, however, need to be completely sure that you're doing the right thing: if you have any doubts, you may end up second-guessing yourself to death. Talk to your friend in private if you have to.
Bruunwald 07-19-06, 04:36 PM	SO the relevance is - do you like the girl so much you are willing to sacrifice a great deal of your game time to her handicap? IF so then you asked for it, and when you end up having to drop the gamer later, don't say you were'nt warned. What a lovely view of humanity and hope you have given us through your kind words. Sheesh. That post is as bad as any trolling could be.
Gedrin 07-19-06, 04:46 PM	I would assume, since the mention of electronic rollers were mentioned, that she is using some sort of laptop (or other type of device) to track her character. If she isn't - then she should.Meh..could be. She could be one of those people who'll put her whole character on computer but not be willing to use an electronic dice roller. I suppose she could be one of those people...sure.
jwhitson 07-19-06, 04:52 PM	Okay simple solution. Take rubber bands, put them around a plastic cup with the rubber bands going around her hand things (I don't mean to be insensitive but I have never known anyone without hands so I don't know what they are called). When she needs to role she can put the cup at the edge of the table, other hand gets die and slides it off of the edge of the table, die falls into cup. She rolls, TADA! Natural 20! even if she doesn't want you rolling for her she might not object to you putting the dice in the cup for her.
WizO_Cat 07-19-06, 05:08 PM	Ok, just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion on the topic of the thread and not other guests. Otherwise, it is considered Baiting which is against the Code of Conduct. For those who have been able to do this, thanks; for all others, I suggest that you catch on quickly. That's includes if you think a poster is trolling; just report the thread instead of accusing them of being a troll in a thread because this activity is considered Baiting as well. Thanks in advance.
SeraphimDominion 07-19-06, 06:09 PM	What a lovely view of humanity and hope you have given us through your kind words. Sheesh. That post is as bad as any trolling could be. Actually, OravannasBrother put it kinda insensitively, but he's getting at some sort of a point. When someone is handicapped, everyone makes compromises. But the compromises shouldnt go all in one direction. The girl in question needs to realize that everyone is willing to make some sacrifices to game with her, but she needs to make some in return. That may mean that if she can't roll her own dice reasonably, then she either needs to work to find a new way to roll them or let someone else do it for her. As her friends, you should be willing to help her find a way to play the game, but you aren't expected to ruin your game for her. And honestly, a 5-minute delay every time Character X needs to roll a die will go a long way to trashing a game. I've gamed with people with handicaps before, including playing CCGs with a guy with no hands (and only one prosthetic, I might add), and it can be done.
AmanitaEata 07-20-06, 09:50 AM	At the moment, PenderGrass, we’re trying out a very RP heavy campaign, so our DM is tracking pretty much everything on his laptop. Stats for all the characters, all that. It’s sort of an experiment for us. We have equipment lists in front of us, and that’s about it (in game. We have, of course, full sheets before and after the game). He tells us the status of our health through description, or instance. “You feel as if any blow could be your last,” that kind of thing. That means for this campaign, at least, she doesn’t have to worry about managing paperwork and all that, just dice rolling and role playing. That has worked out very well (except when she gestures too much while role playing. You don’t want to sit too close.)
OravennasBrother 07-20-06, 12:02 PM	If someone lacks the dexterity to pick up a die and drop it...there's no way they're keeping track of their money, arrows, XP or HP with a pen or pencil. I have seen plenty of players with no handicap (except either laziness or gross stupidity, take your pick) who could not keep track of HP, arrows, money or XP. I mean XP - of all things. I give awards at the end of an encounter (easy for me because I can do the math so quickly it doesn't stop the game) just to make sure that the division is based on characters at the encounter. I also keep a mental tally of what each player has for XP total (Yeah I'm a mutant freak with uncanny memory too, sue me) and I have a player who I constantly find "missed" XP awards because they could not be nothered to write them down at the time of the encounter. Of course I like the player enough to put up with their "laziness" handicap. We are friends outside the campaign. That's an important point. If a player is a good friend they will work with you to find a way around their handicap. If not they may be impossibly demanding (the bling woman was "I have to be accomodated because I'm blind" - well let me accomodate you to the door out)
Asciiman 07-20-06, 12:25 PM	Also, no amount of stress or medical bills justifies physically assaulting someone for breaking a coffee mug! :weep: Over the coffee mug no, but if she's rolling badly.... maybe.