Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 02-15-05, 08:22 PM	What I need are some good ways to handle prisoners while you're in a dangerous situation yourself--in the middle of a battle or a dungeon or both--without having to worry too much about the risks. I am currently playing a character who is a LG agent of a government... so her "style" of combat often involves things like demanding surrender, doing nonlethal damage, etc., in many cases. She also won't kill noncombatants or those who surrender; but she's not stupid enough to let, say, an evil orcish cleric (or his noncombatant son) run free, either. These prisoners are usually brought back and brought to justice (execution, geas, orphanages, community service, etc... whatever the NG NPC ruler my character works for determines just). A perk is that many of these prisoners will often agree to give us useful information. So, anyway: In any given adventure, we often end up with at least one prisoner... once, we had fifteen of them! Up till now, my DM has been relatively nice about prisoners not escaping, not desiring revenge and stabbing us in the back, et cetera. But I'm sure this is not going to last forever. On top of that, most of my companions are Chaotic and would rather just kill someone who surrenders, which makes me the one responsible for said prisoners, and the one who'll get in trouble if something happens. So, do you have any ideas on how to handle prisoners? We've tried: --Simply tying someone up with a length of rope --Manacles --Drow poison and Sleep spells --Tying and gagging spellcasters --Locking noncombatants into a room until we came back to get them I need advice about: --Children. We once had about ten derro children in our care... I didn't want to manacle them, but they'll stab us in the back just like their elders will... but kids from "often evil" races can be taught a different way, and hog-tying them isn't making a good impression! --People strong enough to break rope or manacles: How to handle them? --How to keep a watch on prisoners in the middle of a battle --What to do if a prisoner escapes Thanks, Callista (who'd rather be playing Chaotic sometimes)
Delfedd 02-15-05, 08:34 PM	for the children, come up behind them and subdual them
MysticalCheeze 02-15-05, 08:36 PM	Summon a wall to bar them off. Thats what I would do :D Knock em Unconcious somehow
Callista 02-15-05, 08:50 PM	Oh, a note: We are 8th/9th level.
Draco Strang 02-15-05, 09:08 PM	Beat them into unconciousness using subdual damage. Every time they wake up, whack them again. I don't care how good you are, if something is going to run away or kill you when it gets free, then you have every right to tie it up and knock it out.
Callista 02-15-05, 10:03 PM	Oh, we've done exactly that. Problem is, if we're fighting (insert random large, evil monster here) and the prisoner comes to, just one round is all it takes for him to do damage. Also, that one round between him coming to and us whacking him again? If we're trying to sneak anywhere, just one loud shout is all it takes to notify everyone around... Gags make this not so much of a problem, but if he's creative all he has to do is headbutt the nearest noise-making object... And if he's strong enough, that one round will have him bursting ropes or manacles... Or using spell-like abilities... Hmm. I think I'm gonna stock up on Drow poison... I doubt my DM will consider it a Chaotic act to use it to keep prisoners uncoscious.
strontium 02-15-05, 10:18 PM	Since you seem to be dedicated to taking prisoners in a 'non unit' based environment (ie where you dont have the troops or recources to handle prisoners,) you need to think bounty hunter. You need to commission some manacles, several sets, different sizes, light but functional, possibly with spells such as silence or compulsion spells on them, maybe a set for extra strong prisoners. As you take prisoners on a regular basis, these should become the tools of your trade. Unless your dm runs a magic lite campain, there's no reason not to. Maybe get the law/church to issue/pay for them, otherwise pony up yourself. Hopefully a generous roleplaying xp bonus will help offset the expenditure of resources. :D
Callista 02-15-05, 10:30 PM	Well, what're you supposed to do when your enemy surrenders, is rendered helpless, or doesn't know how to fight in the first place--and you're a soft-hearted little female halfling who's hell-bent on being honorable besides? :) Hmm... let's see. Manacles that cancel out magic HAVE to be out there somewhere, because my DM is quite annoying enough to have spellcasters prepare a Silent, Stilled Dimension Door or Invisibility... Or, at least, I would, if I were him. Something like a 5-foot-diameter Antimagic Field or something.
Bane 02-15-05, 10:45 PM	Dimensional Shackles from the DMG. Put them on someone, and they can't leave through teleportation of any type. Also, Iron Bands of Bilarro are fun, and relatively inexpensive. Once you get the cash, you might get an Iron Flask to aid in recovery of extraplanar opponents. I have a paladin that's going to go into Dwarven Defender that carries around no fewer than a dozen manacles of various sizes, not to mention an Iron Bands of Bilarro. He's in an all-good party though, so he doesn't have much trouble with people trying to kill his prisoners. The one time an NPC recognized his fathers killer and killed a prisoner, the NPC ended up in shackles, and was taken before the courts for killing a prisoner in custody. He was acquitted, but the other PC's haven't forgotten it.
Kulthos 02-15-05, 10:55 PM	Does anyone have any legal power or station? My LG knight protector would conduct fair battlefield trials and then execute the evildoers. Letting an evil creature live so it can kill good people less powerful than yourself later is an evil act. "You have attempted to kill a knight of the land. The penalty for this offence is death."
Melpomene 02-15-05, 11:14 PM	The LE part of me whats to use effective, degrading and dehumanizing means to keep prisoners in line. But, since we're being good... Use a Hide-crafted blind to hide prisoners, keeping them out of the way. Keep the adults bound and watched. Keep the children in a day care under supervision, trying to keep them happy and unfrieghtened. Ransome prisoners quickly.
Molitor 02-16-05, 12:10 AM	Have you considered charming a larger more capable prisoner and having he/she take care of the others? Ogres and the like would be great for this. You could also put familiars and animal companions on guard detail. How about bringing a bird cage with you next time. Put in a secure area, and then polymorph the prisoners into butterflys or the like. This one tactic might take some time though.
Callista 02-16-05, 01:06 AM	My character doesn't attempt to imprison every single thing she fights. That'd just be silly. People who surrender, or who end up unconscious, or if they're just noncombatants caught in the middle... sure. But there's an understanding in a battle--one could almost call it a contract--that if you enter into a battle, you agree to kill or be killed. Honorable--yes. Pacifist--You just come over here within reach of my +1 Holy Rapier and say that again! (Duels are to disarm, of course, not kill...) But if we're sent to kill a marauding red dragon or an ineptly-summoned Vrock, by golly we are not going to stop until it is dead! (If it surrenders, we can offer it a coup de grace rather than multiple painful spells and stabs with cold steel... but that's about it. Even soft-hearted halflings draw the line somewhere--especially when it has to do with carrying out one's mission.) Anyways: I've checked out the Iron Bands thingy--it seems like that would be useful; but it's rather expensive and can be broken by something with high strength. I'll just have to save it for the next spellcaster we fight, I think. Multiple sizes of manacles are already in my shopping list--and, what's more, I have the Handy Haversack to carry 'em with (had that since 4th level... absolutely necessary for halfling pack rats!).
eudas 02-16-05, 01:13 PM	Ghoul Touch Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living humanoid touched Duration: 1d6+2 rounds Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes Imbuing you with negative energy, this spell allows you to paralyze a single living humanoid for the duration of the spell with a successful melee touch attack. Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates). A neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature, and creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the stench. Material Component: A small scrap of cloth taken from clothing worn by a ghoul, or a pinch of earth from a ghoul’s lair. Paralyze the little buggers. Optionally, you can use some sort of paralytic poison to do the same thing. eudas
Norseman 02-16-05, 01:58 PM	What I need are some good ways to handle prisoners while you're in a dangerous situation yourself--in the middle of a battle or a dungeon or both--without having to worry too much about the risks. I am currently playing a character who is a LG agent of a government... so her "style" of combat often involves things like demanding surrender, doing nonlethal damage, etc., in many cases. She also won't kill noncombatants or those who surrender; but she's not stupid enough to let, say, an evil orcish cleric (or his noncombatant son) run free, either. These prisoners are usually brought back and brought to justice (execution, geas, orphanages, community service, etc... whatever the NG NPC ruler my character works for determines just). A perk is that many of these prisoners will often agree to give us useful information. So, anyway: In any given adventure, we often end up with at least one prisoner... once, we had fifteen of them! Up till now, my DM has been relatively nice about prisoners not escaping, not desiring revenge and stabbing us in the back, et cetera. But I'm sure this is not going to last forever. On top of that, most of my companions are Chaotic and would rather just kill someone who surrenders, which makes me the one responsible for said prisoners, and the one who'll get in trouble if something happens. So, do you have any ideas on how to handle prisoners? We've tried: --Simply tying someone up with a length of rope --Manacles --Drow poison and Sleep spells --Tying and gagging spellcasters --Locking noncombatants into a room until we came back to get them I need advice about: --Children. We once had about ten derro children in our care... I didn't want to manacle them, but they'll stab us in the back just like their elders will... but kids from "often evil" races can be taught a different way, and hog-tying them isn't making a good impression! --People strong enough to break rope or manacles: How to handle them? --How to keep a watch on prisoners in the middle of a battle --What to do if a prisoner escapes Thanks, Callista (who'd rather be playing Chaotic sometimes) The nice thing about the new subdual damage rules is that it can just keep accumulating. You could take your average peasant and deal him 500 points of subdual damage. As long as he doesn't starve or dehydrate while unconcious, he'll live. So after you've clobbered them down, hit 'em once or twice more just for good measure. Strong enough to break manacles? What about adamantium manacles? Also, consider strength paralysis. Strength-damaging poisons will not only make them easier to bring down ('cause they can't damage you as much) but they'll also paralyze them up to 24 hours. *reaches for trust DM's guide* Dragon bile, although expensive, is a contact poison with a DC of 26, the highest of all poisons in the DM's guide. It does 3d6 strength damage instantly if they fail their save. It costs 1,500 gp per use, but if you're going up against a BBEG who can't scrounge up 3d6 strength, you've got yourself a one-touch victory. Consider using invisibility to close enough. Since it's contact, it could also be applied to an arrow, but I prefer the anti-AC properties of touch-attacks. If you want something a little cheaper, try large scorpion venom. It's only 200 gp, and does 1d6 str/1d6 str DC 18 via injury. At the very least, if it doesn't paralyze them, it will still make it more difficult for them to burst out of manacles. Carrion crawler brain juice costs as much as the scorpion venom and paralyzes them, but it has a DC of 13 and the paralysis only lasts 2d6 minutes. Drow poison is by far the best in this regard. Instant knockout, and also happens to be the cheapest poison available at just 75 gp. Problem is, like the brain juice, it has a pretty low DC, so there's a good chance it won't work on the first try. Just keep plenty with you. Consider the Iron Bands of Billaro (DM's guide) if you have enough money. Medallion of thoughts would be a good way for you to find out if someone is planning on making a break for it. Flesh to stone is nice if you have access to the stone to flesh spell as well. You can basically freeze the guy, load him on a cart, bring him back, defreeze, and do as you please. Another interesting possibility is using a magic carpet or flying mount to get around. If the guy tries to run, he'll fall to his death (though that doesn't bar the possibility of your captured foes trying to kill you). Other possibilities include storing people in bags of holding or portable holes. You can tuck them away neatly until you need them later (just make sure they have an ample air supply).
psionichamster 02-16-05, 02:22 PM	you could set something up like a portable jail... take leomund's tiny hut or secure shelter as the basis, then work on customizing it... say, have a certain number of cells, everything is warded against teleport magic, the doors lock from the outside, and noone can get out since the door is "reversed" from the original spell...ie, only visible from the outside or, in the case of spellcasters, break their fingers and gag em...kinda hard to pull that TP/D. Door out of manacles routine when you can't move your hands and can't talk through your gag geas spells are nice, but a bit out of your league right now... adamantine manacles (as has been mentioned) dimensional shackles adamantine chain/locks...kinda hard to break out of restraint when your hands are bound above your head and your weight is mostly on your wrists pillories and stocks and yokes are also an option... basically, get a heavy piece of wood, clap them to it, secure in some manner soverign glue + leg irons? you could just break their legs, too...although that's bit harsh for the kiddys... namaste, the hamster
Melpomene 02-16-05, 02:37 PM	Well, since we're being more evil now... As good as I want to be, I have a tendancy to apply "kill all rogues and arcane spellcasters" without exception. Wormy little things, more trouble then they're worth.
Kulthos 02-16-05, 02:44 PM	Killing an evil creature isn't evil. Letting an evil creature live to kill again IS evil. If an insane serial killer surrenders, and you know that if he lives he will escape and kill people after you leave, only a depraved person or a coward would not kill them. The serial killer is only surrendering to hopefully get the chance to kill again. Don't fall for it.
Phrennzy 02-16-05, 04:34 PM	We're not talking insane serial killers. The OP mentioned Derro children and that they could be turned to good. He made a point of saying he does not capture the irredeemably evil creatures - the rogue vrock, etc. As for how to contain them - I would take issue with breaking fingers. I am a little iffy on poisoning them. I guess if you refer to it as sedation, it's not so bad :) Magical manacles is the way to go for the larger creatures or the spell casting ones. Regular manacles would suffice for smaller foes. I'd also like you to point out to the DM that not every prisoner would take great risks to escape. If they are surrounded by heavily armed guards who just slew their own best military forces, I'm betting most would stay in line. For a group, tie their hands behind them, blindfold and gag everyone. Then tie them in a line, one after the other. The lead prisoner should not be blindfolded. This is the one that others will follow as they march - him being able to see should lead to fewer stumbles. If you have taken someone prisoner, and they escape and attempt to cause lethal harm (attacking you, or preventing you from striking in battle) they should be dealt with harshly. While this should be subdual damage when possible, sometimes soldiers have to kill, even kill children. One must suffer for the greater good.
Melpomene 02-16-05, 11:40 PM	Of course, if you want to keep people from escaping, there's a very good, classical response. For each prisoner which escapes, we excecute x other prisoners. Works especially well if you have good communication with other stations, and large bases of prisoners.
Kulthos 02-17-05, 12:58 AM	Any time the party lets orcs or other such creatures go out of "Mercy" they need to see the remains of the farming family that the orcs terrorize and slaughter twenty minutes after the party leaves. My favorite was in an Eberon Mark of Heroes mod. We were checking out an observatory to talk to the scientist. We go in the front door and get jumped by a bunch of goblins. Our wizard sleeps their master. I kill the small fry and I go to coup de gras the leader. The DM then announces loudly that while killing the awake ones was fine, killing the sleeping leader is an EVIL act. He goes on about how we can't kill a helpless person. After a while of back and forth, we agree that the DM can make life annoying for us, so we stop fighiting with him.. The next door we went through had the remains of the people killed by the goblin leader, rotting in the corner. I said "Well gee, glad we didn't jump to any conclusions about this guy, he is a real peach."
Callista 02-17-05, 01:13 AM	Killing a helpless creature isn't necessarily evil. It's Chaotic though... so my (lawful) character would find it dishonorable. Same with breaking fingers or using poisons to defeat enemies. And who says we let *anyone* go?! I mean, think about it: The LG PC is on a mission to capture or kill something... she fails that mission if she lets that Evil person or creature go, out of "mercy"! Hello! Honor and duty, anyone?
Aricandor 02-17-05, 04:15 AM	or, in the case of spellcasters, break their fingers and gag em...kinda hard to pull that TP/D. Door out of manacles routine when you can't move your hands and can't talk through your gag Well, having broken fingers and casting DD is very easy. In fact, it won't disturb the casting at all (only a verbal component, making a Silent Dimension Door spell something good to use to escape grapples). The gagging makes it a little problematic to cast though :D Teleportation warding is, indeed, a much better route. And if they're wizards, steal their spellbooks.
HippoRider 02-17-05, 05:17 AM	several good sets of manacles with some silence properties and a bag of holding. Drug em, clap em, bag em. :D that should keep them out the way and safe from other baddies even. Plkus even if they wake up the worst they can do is mess up stuff in the bag or so i think.
Tyusk 02-17-05, 05:35 AM	Cut off the head of one of the prisoners, then promise to the other children prisoners, if they are good, you'll buy them ice cream. problem solved!
Andrew_980 02-17-05, 09:29 AM	if you can use mark of justice on them, and let them know what the consequenses are. if you are low level or can't cast, use paint to mark the bad guy and tell them it is a mark of justice, if they aren;t casters that would call your bluff
Black Knight Geno 02-17-05, 01:25 PM	Buy a few of those magic manacles that look like a ball, that, when used, bind the target with three steel rings. Or, if you are really wanting to keep them quiet, throw them in a portable hole with a bootle of endless air. That should take care of them! :smirk:
psionichamster 02-17-05, 01:31 PM	yeah, the finger-breaking really ain't too nice to do... but you could take a page from modern law-enforcement get little bags (chain mail, enchanted cloth, something like that) and wrap the bound wiz/rogue's hands up in them. ever trying picking a lock with mittens on? how about a chainmail "sandwich bag" wrapped around your hands? that should immobilize them a bit... also, heavy weights are a great detriment to flight...leg irons with heavy balls attached, big logs, the other prisoners, etc... get some sovereign glue, and don't bother with the chains...its hard to run when your forehead is attached to the middle of the guy's back in front of you...repeat as needed until you have a whole chain of glued together people if you really wanna keep em under control, bind their hands to the ankles of the person ahead of them now, they ain't going anywhere best part? sovereign glue (and universal solvent, for when you get them to their destination) are a LOT lighter than a whole buncha chains/manacles/even rope better living through (al)chemistry, no? namaste, the hamster
Melpomene 02-17-05, 02:23 PM	The purpose of handeling prisoners is so that you can, theoretically, give them back to thier respective team in exchange for your stuff. (Or slaves, but we'll assume you aren't LE.) So, if anyone tries to escape, they compramise the system. Telling that to lawful prisoners should keep them in line. In other words, "This is only temperary, we don't want to hurt you, and we only will if you [or your fellows] try to escape." LE: You can also make an exemplar. Excecute a prisoner who tries to escape in full view of the others as slowly and painfully as you can. The subsequent bonuses to intimidate should be enough to keep the others in line.
Wizard 02-17-05, 02:30 PM	I suggest your character find a god. It is extremely hard for a character to behave with principles without divine protection. A paladin without a god (but with class abilities!) is probably the most vulnerable creature in the universe. Killing prisoners works. For sure. The "good" counterpart of this is faith that your god will protect you if you're following their teachings.