Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suzaku455 03-03-06, 03:32 AM	Now I currently don’t have that problem but in the past I’ve thought about it. Also if your character died and you had great stats did you try convincing your DM to keep your current stats (like saying to save time rather then rolling new stats?) Edit- "Hmm I should've stated NPCing a character counts as "killing" a character." - Edit
nastynate 03-03-06, 04:06 AM	If you weren't happy with your character why'd you ever play it in the first place? Only play a character you are happy with, and in the future try the point-buy method of generating stats. :D
FreeTheSlaves 03-03-06, 05:12 AM	I just don't allow that sort of behaviour. You kill your character, you don't play.
BradSmit 03-03-06, 12:57 PM	I did such a thing one time... This was also the same day I had characters continuesly die. We were low lvl (1-3) and every fight we got in I kept dieing. It got to the point where my high stat was a 14 and my low was a 10. I said "screw this" and had the character do a swan dive off a rope bridge to save my DM time from rolling dice. Next character was a fighter who dies four weeks later due to a huge alligator.
Hobbun 03-03-06, 01:38 PM	I don't see an issue if you want to switch out a character. All of you are there to have fun and if you aren't having fun with your character, then maybe you need a new one. Our DM feels pretty much the same way and although it is not something I have done much, I have switched out a couple characters (between two different campaigns, one time in each). It is not so much "killing your character" than just getting a new one. To how you get rid of your character is up to you with maybe help from the DM. We have had people get rid of an old character by just having them stay back at the party's stronghold and becoming an NPC.
Ace the Dead 03-03-06, 01:58 PM	Indeed, if you don't like your character, especially if your character lacks to power to fight the good fight with the rest of the party, he should look into finding a way to help that moves him to friendly NPC status. Talk to your DM about options, or leave it up to them (PCs killed a vampire that had been made out of a character they adventured with a number of levels ago). Commiting suicide for beter stats is the worst kind of metagaming I can imagine. It hurts the character physically & from a story POV for the benefit of the player.
Suzaku455 03-03-06, 02:07 PM	Hmm I should've stated NPCing a character counts as "killing" a character.
Hariman 03-03-06, 02:28 PM	If you weren't happy with your character why'd you ever play it in the first place? Only play a character you are happy with, and in the future try the point-buy method of generating stats. :D The point buy isn't a perfect system. The increase in cost for higher ability scores is a strange and irritating rule for the system. It actually makes lower ability scores more valuable by making the higher ability scores cost too much. It feels to me like they didn't want to take the time to structure the system to have a simple 1 to 1 purchase for ability points. It's not a perfect system, especially at lower point values where you have to trade dex or con for a functional casting stat. EDIT: Personally, I prefer to roll stats because I have good luck with rolling stats. I also think that point buys should begin at 28 and top out at 32.
DeadKeepWalking 03-03-06, 02:45 PM	I have never had that problem. My characters don't live long enough anyways to have an impact on the campaign. I have the life span equal to the DMs BBEG. Just read my signature, and look for a thread in D&D General called Worst Campaign History. You will see what I mean when I say my characters don't live long, and it is always the case no matter the DM. So, I have a few character sheets lying around and dice, ready to create another one. It gets boring though when you have played every race and class in the core books, and nothing you do improves your chance to survive. In short, I have nothing wrong with creating a new character to play, as long as you aren't doing it to try to exploit the campaign. Examples: Lots of undead, toss your rogue to create a cleric; lots of weak creatures with SR, toss your wizard for a fighter; etc.
nastynate 03-03-06, 02:57 PM	The point buy isn't a perfect system. The increase in cost for higher ability scores is a strange and irritating rule for the system. It actually makes lower ability scores more valuable by making the higher ability scores cost too much. It feels to me like they didn't want to take the time to structure the system to have a simple 1 to 1 purchase for ability points. It's not a perfect system, especially at lower point values where you have to trade dex or con for a functional casting stat. Higher stats have to cost more. Otherwise min/maxers could have only 18s and 8s. Yes point-buy favors classes that would rather have a bunch of 14s, rather than a few really high scores, and a bunch of dump stats, but that's a good thing. I don't want to see a bunch of barbarians with 18s in strength, dexterity, and constitution, but 8s in their non-physical abilities. A 32 point-buy which can get you an array like 16/16/14/10/10/10 seems plenty strong enough to me. What point-buy does do well, is that it ensures you can play whatever class you want, and that all PCs are on even ground when they generate their characters. Rolling stats often leads to an imbalance of power between the PCs which is unfair. When one player gets 18/16/15/15/13/10 and another gets 17/13/13/11/9/9 it's totally bogus; the second player got shafted, and the first got rewarded, for no reason. Personally, I prefer to roll stats because I have good luck with rolling stats. I also think that point buys should begin at 28 and top out at 32.Luck IMHO shouldn't have anything to do with character generation.
Hariman 03-03-06, 03:15 PM	Higher stats have to cost more. Otherwise min/maxers could have only 18s and 8s. Yes point-buy favors classes that would rather have a bunch of 14s, rather than a few really high scores, and a bunch of dump stats, but that's a good thing. I don't want to see a bunch of barbarians with 18s in strength, dexterity, and constitution, but 8s in their non-physical abilities. A 32 point-buy which can get you an array like 16/16/14/10/10/10 seems plenty strong enough to me. What point-buy does do well, is that it ensures you can play whatever class you want, and that all PCs are on even ground when they generate their characters. Rolling stats often leads to an imbalance of power between the PCs which is unfair. When one player gets 18/16/15/15/13/10 and another gets 17/13/13/11/9/9 it's totally bogus; the second player got shafted, and the first got rewarded, for no reason. Luck IMHO shouldn't have anything to do with character generation. And player two can ask for a reroll. 17/13/13/11/9/9 is actually a 28 point point buy. And some people enjoy having chance factoring into character creation. Neither system is perfect, both have flaws in them. The point buy favors balance perhaps with too much emphasis on the cost of higher ability scores and rolling can be too random. Let's leave it at that. EDIT: Point buy, to me is OK at 28 and above. Getting to 25 and below is very restrictive and much harder to use/play.
FreeTheSlaves 03-03-06, 03:48 PM	EDIT: Personally, I prefer to roll stats because I have good luck with rolling stats. I never believe someone who claims to have good luck when rolling stats. I bet if I was an observer I'd see a heap of fudging, bluffing & rerolls.
Chaoslords 03-03-06, 03:55 PM	I've on both sides of the fence on this one. Sometimes you create a character that is really neat or cool and fun to play, but when you start to play the character it is just not what you expect. Example I had a character that was LN Politician type. Think of Emperor Palpatine from the Star Wars movie just not Evil. What started this character type was when the DM said his game would have more politics in his game. The game started out, he had a lot of secrets that the other players didn't know and looked like it would be fun to Role Play, completely useless in battle but could talk his way out pretty much situation, as long as they have a brain. After about the 3rd adventure not only was the character useless in combat but the one area he specially designed to shine almost never came. So It wasn't a lot of fun to play, I was more of spectator. There was more politics in the story, but it over a much larger story arc and didn't really pertain to my character. That and he was LN and the rest of the party was some form of Chaotic. Next example: Player in one of my campaigns started out as a Paladine and quickly realized he didn't like playing a LG character. So, both times the problem was solved by going to the DM and explaining the displeasure of playing the character and having a new character re-rolled. If a player of mine suicided a character, they would have to start out at 1 level lower then the average party level. And I don't use the Money chart in the DMG for Characters starting off at a Higher level. The starting gold and equipment is dependent on the characters backstory. Now if they come to me say I would like a new character to replace So-and-so. I ask why and then allow them to. Depending on there reason for a new character I may or may not keep the character as an NPC. Along a similar vein, I once had a character whos goals had changed from the rest of the party. I took the DM aside and told him there is no way, "In character", for him to stay with the party. The DM know that this would be a problem at some point and allowed me to create a new character of equal strength.
Dragen White 03-03-06, 04:41 PM	ok just one small thing, i play with a group that hates the point buy system, i am pobablythe only one in the group that likes it. Mainly because they are all power gamers and they whine if they cant have stats at 20 or all 18's or etc. The flesh roles are ok, they ad diversity among the group and make it more realistic as far as one character being sickly and another really strong, its unbalanced though as far as luck of the roll goes. I see no flaw in point buy though, sure it cost alot to put points in higer stats, but has anyone read what a 18 is compaired to??? um profesional body builder or geniuos/ in the PHB a centaur, astral deva, mindflayer, and etc. its not normal!!! To have those high of stats you must sacrifice training in other areas of the characters life, thus why if you want balance it is more cost effective, because those physical feats are not supreme and the eptime of the best you can be, not to mention your racial bonus apply after the cost, so a 18 becomes a 20 with no penaltiy, basing it off reality, this makes more sense, an oplymic athlete probably isn't as wise as lets say aristotle, and if he is maybe he should be a pargon (see UA). Ultimatly its the DMs choice but im tired of the power gamers whinig because they have to choose between major advantages/major disadvantages or balance, its simply them wanting there cake and eating it to, and as it was said above this alows the player to make his own decisions on a equal start with what all the other players have to work with and responsible for his own decisions. I as a DM if the players wanted to flesh roll, i would make them roll for individual stats and not place them after wards, aka, "ok thats a 9 in dex" (Player)= "Crap now i cant play a theif" (Me)= "sure you can if thats what you want to play, you just wont be very good at it". An example i give to them some people like michal jordan arn't good at first, in fact they suck, then as they grow, they become better in skill to overcome their lack of abilities and become heros. (not to mention abilities increases)
Hariman 03-03-06, 05:01 PM	I never believe someone who claims to have good luck when rolling stats. I bet if I was an observer I'd see a heap of fudging, bluffing & rerolls. Lucky dice. No, they aren't loaded dice, at least not by deliberate design. They have the "divot" numbers on them, so that they are ever so slightly heavier on the side with the one. But they still roll like normal dice and ones do come up a fair amount of the time in play. But I've rolled mediocre stats with them too. And most of the unbelievable stat sets have come from a "Roll 4d6, Reroll Ones and Twos, roll each stat 3 times, take the best of those 3 sets of rolls. (And that meant the best 6 of the 18 rolls, the DM was a twink/munchkin/powergamer.)" Under a Normal "4d6, reroll 1s, roll 6 times" I'd probably get only decent scores. And yes, I got some insane scores under the first system. The random nature of rolling can be fun, as long as the DM allows for rerolling subpar stats. Or only one set is rolled and all the players get the same sets of scores to place as they'd like. Both DMs I play under use the point buy anyway. And it's entirely possible that I'll just use a 32 point point buy when I start DMing again.
FreeTheSlaves 03-03-06, 05:19 PM	The last time I used the 4d6dl method without any modifications at all, it was a heaped load of disaster. Half the characters were total losers & one guy was effectively a super pumped half-Titan. I can't believe the game designers made that system default. Did they seriously expect us to use it because next to noone uses it without serious modifications. When I dm I use a combination of organic method & point buy. You are guaranteed a good set of stats, with some unpredictability, & the degree of variance between characters is unnoticable. **** The issue of this topic is nothing to do with killing or retiring characters but everything to do with everyone using an accepted generation method. My quick rule of thumbs are: Is the average point buy equivalency acceptable to everyone? Can any given person accept the minimal result? Can the minimal & maximum result coexist within the same party? Is any degree of randomness acceptable to all? There are more but not off the top of my head. I wouldn't allow any character generation until this issue is sorted out with 100% agreement by all players (the dm is just an over-glorified/worked player btw). This all being so there would be no need to replace characters in the hope of getting better stats. In an ideal world all you'd do is lose a level & all the accomplishments of the existing character, i.e. you'd be beating yourself up.
StevenO 03-03-06, 11:22 PM	... But I've rolled mediocre stats with them too. And most of the unbelievable stat sets have come from a "Roll 4d6, Reroll Ones and Twos, roll each stat 3 times, take the best of those 3 sets of rolls. (And that meant the best 6 of the 18 rolls, the DM was a twink/munchkin/powergamer.)" Under a Normal "4d6, reroll 1s, roll 6 times" I'd probably get only decent scores. ... That first method is insane. Trying to DM characters generated with that system would be a pain since the normal DM aids (CR and EL) are worthless with characters that are that far above normal. Your "normal" method isn't normal either since there is no rerolling 1s. I've seen posts equating 4d6 to between 28-30 point buy. Adding rerolled 1s makes the PB equivalent jump tremenously. For the original question, there shouldn't be a problem reusing stats provided they aren't random to begin with. The beauty of PB is that character stats are easy and consistent from one character to the next. A character with rolled stats may be so far above the norm that the DM is obligated to retire a character based mostly on its insane stats.
Mist of Shadows 03-03-06, 11:43 PM	I solved the dice rolling problem with letting the pcs choose. They can take a point buy or roll the dice. Most of my players went for rolling the dice. I don't really like the concept of point buy in that everyone isn't equal. Things aren't fair. I don't really care that it is a game. The player can have perfectly fine stats with either rolling or point buy. As for killing characters because you don't like their stats, nope. Have I seen characters die because of bad stats yep. Killed a druid when he did the whole stat dump thing for wild shape. I waxed him with a stat draining spell while he was walking around town. In all of the years that's the only time I ever really got ****** at a player. He was such a jerk abusing the rules. His next character didn't have any dump stats. I have concidered killing my character because I wasn't enjoying the game a few times :) but nope never over stats.
Hariman 03-04-06, 01:43 AM	That first method is insane. Trying to DM characters generated with that system would be a pain since the normal DM aids (CR and EL) are worthless with characters that are that far above normal. Your "normal" method isn't normal either since there is no rerolling 1s. I've seen posts equating 4d6 to between 28-30 point buy. Adding rerolled 1s makes the PB equivalent jump tremenously. For the original question, there shouldn't be a problem reusing stats provided they aren't random to begin with. The beauty of PB is that character stats are easy and consistent from one character to the next. A character with rolled stats may be so far above the norm that the DM is obligated to retire a character based mostly on its insane stats. Yeah, that's why I said that the DM that used the first method was a powergamer. I once had a character with 18/18/17/16/14/14 I kept surprising him by winning encounters well beyond what he thought I would be able to. Like the Monk5/Tattooed Monk10 that I killed with a 10th level group of 4 characters. (It's a long story, made short it's basically me and him the only gamers so I'd play a party of 4 while he DMed.). Although I did have to blind that damned monk to kill him. I'm going to split hairs a little here. I disagree on the Point Buy is always equal. If you are playing certain classes, Hexblade, Paladin, Spirit Shaman, and other Multiple Ability Dependency suffering classes, Point Buy can be the Kiss Of Death. A low Point Buy can make it so that it is extremely difficult to play a class that needs 4 good ability scores to excel. From 28 to 32, there isn't much of a problem with certain classes. But with only 25 points, you can barely get the scores needed to make class abilities useful. This problem doesn't always crop up. Having dump stats helps in some areas, but leaves a weakness. (And I hate Dump Stats with a passion.) There are also methods of fighting in melee that don't require a high Strength score. But not everyone wants to play a Weapon Finessing Spike Chainer or an Archer. I know I'm generalizing, but Point Buy does have it's flaws. As for killing a character for bad stats? I almost didn't take leadership because the cohort got a 22 point point buy. That was a major blow, even for a sorcerer.