Post/Author/DateTime	Post
djamidin 01-01-05, 09:58 AM	if so can u help me with selecting the proper feats and even provide some battle tactics? thank you, Djamidin
DM Zoc 01-01-05, 10:28 AM	I've seen it done. It requires researching your own spells and/or inventing a prestige class. As is, there is not enough material to truly support it in its own right.
djamidin 01-01-05, 10:35 AM	i am definitely considering taking archmage lvls becouse it has a way to trade up a spell slot to make touch attacks from distances. the necromancy school seems to have the coolest touch attacks so far.
pha3drus 01-01-05, 10:46 AM	Arcane reach is definitely a good way to go if you want to base a character on touch attacks. Also taking Weapon Focus(Touch Spells) may not be a bad idea and the touch spell specialization that is in complete arcane as well. I'm not sure if you want to have a specialty wizard or a universal though so as for other feat i'm not sure.
djamidin 01-01-05, 11:21 AM	that is a good sugestion. i have a nother question. if you have a natural attack wich can paralyze, could you stack it with a touch attack spell so both effects take place?
Zetakya 01-01-05, 11:27 AM	that is a good sugestion. i have a nother question. if you have a natural attack wich can paralyze, could you stack it with a touch attack spell so both effects take place? Depends... If it's a spell-like ability, no, as you can't stack touch spell effects. If it's just an Ex effect yes, I think. Not sure about Supernatural effects.
djamidin 01-01-05, 11:35 AM	does anyone knows it wen i use a paralyze touch attack powered up with a touch spell. the paralyzation is a supernatural ability. Good thing it is not a spelllike ability, still have a chance to stack em:P
Razoreface 01-01-05, 12:46 PM	I've done it with a Sorc... doing it requires you to be up close and unfriendly with people. You need great Con, because you're still the big scary mage, but now you're nicely inside killing distance.
djamidin 01-01-05, 12:48 PM	i have no constitution because i am kinda like,,,, a lich
Sebmagic 01-01-05, 01:21 PM	go figure.... as soon as I saw paralyzing attacks, I knew you were up to something... what's the interest of all being a lich.... anyway, for touch attacks, you might look into a way to wear armors without ASF as it will help you survive a little...
Shazarn 01-01-05, 03:56 PM	Okay this is what i would do. Get a mount, ride by attack, shield (the spell), and an attack touch attack. Okay cast your spells (sheild and attack touch) line up on one side of the enemyand have shield in between the two of you (you have touch spells until discharged remember). Then charge the enemy and hit them with your spell. You could aslo get dodge and have the person your bonus works on be the other person.
der_gogo 01-01-05, 04:15 PM	At lower levels touch attack spells like Shocking Grasp and Ghoul Touch are quite powerful. When you reach lvl 5, get Vampiric Touch for extra hp. Try to have a lot of HP and AC, since you have to get into melee range. Two very powerful options are either using Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. The former provides you with more HP and a better BAB, the latter with Sneak Attacks with your touch attacks. Nice, isn't it? :D Plus, both options are Core.
djamidin 01-01-05, 05:04 PM	cool suggestions. i am going too work my little lich out now. if there are any more suggestions you are welcome to offer them to me.
Razoreface 01-01-05, 05:25 PM	i have no constitution because i am kinda like,,,, a lich Seriously get into overusing vampiric touch. Lots. Like vampiric touch is the 60's and you're Elvis. Metamagics will be your friend. Every one you can think of to up slots, because you will need those hitpoints. Shocking grasp is another good one for low levels, because while the damage isn't great, there are metas to raise the max dice, and overall damage, and it gives you get another +3 to hit those guys in metal armor who already have complete crap touch AC. :) Plus you can quicken it before you can quicken Vamp.
lostinabook247 01-01-05, 05:27 PM	Arcane Trickster is very cool for touch attacks with sneak attack damage, and if you are already a lich (so therefore evil) and your DM will allow you to PrC dip, taking 1 level of rogue, 5 of wizard and then 1 of assasin will let you get to Arcane Trickster while only sacrificing two levels of spells, if you have good Int for skills to get all the prereqs.
Santrilla 01-01-05, 07:20 PM	If you're playing a close-up mage, still spell is your friend. Use still spell and you can wear pretty much any armour you like- as long as you don't mind the +1 CL to your spells.
Melpomene 01-01-05, 07:56 PM	I was debating a minotaur mage for a long time, and decided to go with a Warlock. With Hideous Blow, it sort of worked.
Leibel 01-02-05, 11:29 PM	W/ Mount, Shield, Mage Armor you speed/defense work out well and if it does not you can use the horse to haul it out there And don't forget the familiar's (what I have a familiar) at 3rd level. "Cute" little toad familiars now become deadly - not in combat mind you but with Hide+21 they can now become deadly guards/scouts/ambushers - just have the toad hop to the BBEG and ghoul touch them and begin the regular attack.
Shazarn 01-02-05, 11:35 PM	Spend a feat and get martial profeicency with some huge weapon so you can knock the daylights out of people after all you spells are gone. Like a falchion, those things are the bees knees.
djamidin 07-18-05, 06:57 PM	thanks guys. Have not posted for a while now. I have 2 liches now. The one i am not completely satisfied with is a 21 lvl wizard/lich and he was my first try out. He stil functions though. The second one is a completely different build and has jet to atain his lichdom for he is lvl6. He is a tauric creature(found in monster manual two) The base humanoid is a sun elf wizard lvl 2 The base monster is a griffin of 3 HD. the ability's are as follows: 14 17 12 22(+2 headband of intelect) 14 15 i have an AC of 16 HP: 34(rolled) Saves fort 4 ref 6 will 5 he has a fly speed of 80 (and on another post of mine i am still wondering if he keeps it if he atains lichdom. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=466286 ) he can pounce and he can rake he took the enhance attribute instead of a familiar. He can hover and he also took the Practiced spellcaster feat in order to fire spells as if a lvl 5 wizard. He thinks of getting the necrotic mother cyst as the feat for the nasty. And the rest i am still working out. He will probably spellstitch himself and he will try to gain a few levels in archmage for the touch reach. some earlyer posts am i taking into account for the future, building him further. greets djam
tseb 07-18-05, 07:11 PM	Shivering touch is a fantastic 3rd level touch attack spell. It does 3d6 dex damage with no saving throw. It's in Frostburn.
Witchblade 07-18-05, 09:50 PM	Arcane Trickster is very cool for touch attacks with sneak attack damage, and if you are already a lich (so therefore evil) and your DM will allow you to PrC dip, taking 1 level of rogue, 5 of wizard and then 1 of assasin will let you get to Arcane Trickster while only sacrificing two levels of spells, if you have good Int for skills to get all the prereqs. I wouldn't do this. It totally messes up your BAB. Taking Dodge and Mobility and the Fly spell is a pretty good technique to reduce the amount of attacks you'll have to face. Hit and run. The Combat Casting feat is a must, since you'll have to make a lot of Concentration checks. Quickened Dimension Door is also an option. Move towards the opponent. Touch attack. Quickened DD. Repeat. :) And I think that Paralyzing Touch and Touch spells can work together. Another more unique touch-attacker is a Cleric with Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist.
High Octane 07-18-05, 10:28 PM	If you are going the trickster, take the 3 levels in rogue. You need the skill points and best of all, evasion. Or if you only want to sacrific 2 levels and you are max-minning anyway, go for complete adventurer and get 1 level in rogue, and 1 level in spellthief.
Dragonsblood 07-19-05, 02:30 AM	Maybe a monk or fighter (with imp unarmed fighting feat) with some wizard levels for touch spells?
Kelwyn 07-19-05, 09:05 AM	Get some Eyeball familiar for your mage, or become an arcane trickster
Keenath 07-19-05, 09:53 AM	Maybe a monk or fighter (with imp unarmed fighting feat) with some wizard levels for touch spells? I've done this. Though, Sorcerer levels work somewhat better than Wizard! First, you'll need the Ascetic Mage feat from CV. Among other things, that'll let you use Charisma as your Monk AC stat, so you won't be trying to deal with needing yet ANOTHER high score. Con and Cha should be your best scores, followed by Dex, and then Str. You probably will want to get Weapon Finesse, if your strength is unimpressive and your dexterity much better (Don't bother if your Dex is only 2 or 3 points higher; to be worth the feat you should have a Dex score at LEAST 4 points higher than STR.) Going by the Elite Array, I'd set up the character like this: STR 12 DEX 13 CON 15 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 14 Obviously, my 4th level point goes into Con, and then Dex at 8th. HP is critical to the character, with the low HD from Sorc levels. You will quickly learn to cast Bull's Strength for when you need to deliver hits that count. What you do after that is going to depend on your build. Are you a caster with a few monk levels for the defense and special abilities, or are you a monk with a few caster levels for special powers? I prefer the latter, myself. If you're going that way, your first level should be Monk (because you get better skills and some moderate fighting ability), followed by a level of Sorcerer. Depending on build, you might take two levels of Monk and make the third Sorcerer, taking the Ascetic Mage feat as your third-level feat. Spell selection is important. You're looking for spells that will make your unarmed strikes more powerful and/or frightening. Chill Touch is great for this, because it's cheap (only 1st level) and adds 1d6 plus strength damage to your punches -- and it has multiple charges, so you can power it up, then walk into combat and start throwing punches for several turns. As a matter of fact, Necromancy is one of the best schools for this build. You can produce fist attacks that drain your opponent's energy (Touch of Fatigue, for instance), hurt them, paralyze them... In addition to touch attacks, you should set aside some of your known spells for things that fit well with your character concept. As a monk/sorcerer, Jump and Enlarge Person are nice, as is Feather Fall and Magic Weapon. Mage Armor provides a great defense. As you gain levels, some of the defensive illusions are good -- mirror image fits particularly well -- and you can get access to the stat-boost transmutations. Ideally, you want to get into a class that gives good BAB and spell advancement. The Enlightened Fist is a good one -- in CA, I think. As an added bonus, the Enlightened Fist lets you use Ray spells as touch attacks, holding the charge until your punch connects -- which greatly expands the number of touch spells you have available! (Make sure you take the Stunning Fist option at first level, by the way -- you need it as a prereq to get into EF, and you can spend stun attempts for special effects.) Building a touch-based Fighter/Wizard or Fighter/Sorc is a whole different ballgame -- you need to concentrate more on strength than Con, and you can afford to wear light armor. The low ASF probably won't be an issue, and you can move into the Eldritch Knight PRC.
Red_Ninja 07-19-05, 04:02 PM	In both cases you need to address your AC and HP as soon as possible. I've done it by taking a couple warrior class levels, but in fact, my best character was a dwarven wizard- his high CON helped with HP. At the very beginning i used some short ranged spells and touch attacks (burning hands, shocking grasp) for attack and mage armor/shield for defense. As I got a little more powerful (and got scrolls) I fequently pumped up my STR and DEX before battles (cat's grace/bull's strength) I still used shocking grasp, to attack, adding chill touch and others, but I had more access to utility spells- I'd use invisibility to get the element of surprise/first attack, mirror image to endure melee, and true strike to FINISH them. At mid level things got even better, I had a rogue in the party, so when ambushed, I had a him use a wand of bull's strength on me as I cast defensive magic to speed up my "pumping up" I spent ability points on STR and spent a feat for improved unarmed attack. I spent a small fortune for offensive and defensive magical items, eventually creating my own custom items... My favorite items and spells (not that hard to get) where... potions of str (+2d6), stone skin spell (at first these were scrolls that I sometimes failed to read properly), invisibility, (eventually) bracers of ogre power, wand of true strike (eventually made an amulet that coluld cast it 1/day) vampiric touch, mirror image (eventually made a 4th lvl improved mirror image spell that you had to disbelieve)...I particularly liked it when other PCs helped my mage out (by casting bless, flanking, surging forward to meet enemies when i was mortally wounded and withdrawing...) Good teamwork made my dwarf a real surprise! my dwarven wizard eventually started work on "power gauntlets" similar to the 5 pieced one in the 2nd ed. myth drannor campaign- hoping he could wear the gauntlets and cast magic, but the campaign ended before the item could be completed
Capt. Pixel 07-19-05, 07:19 PM	Spectral Hand :D (reach out and touch someone)
psionichamster 07-19-05, 08:00 PM	check out fist of stone from the complete arcane +6 str (+3 atk, +3 dmg with melee attacks, if you take a full-attack action and hit once, you get 1.5 str bonus) it lasts a while, and then you cast vamp touch next round, smack for unarmed dmg + vamp touch dmg, take the extra hp, quicken cast defensively/smack again things that do con damage and dex damage are the best, IMO, since so many large, nasty, strong things have relatively low dex, and 0 dex = asleep blur, mirror image, mage armor, shield, reduce person, haste, resistance, stone skin, aid (or false life or vamp touch), is the way for a wizard to enter into combat. perm the reduce, cast MA long before combat (extend if needed), consider potions to ease up the casting costs with this combo, you can take out things like giants, undead, constructs, and the like, even with a half-sized caster. imp. invis and ghoul/chill touch is your friend, once you learn it. invest in hide and move silently skills, and possibly consider some 0% ASF armor, just for the silent and still moves enchantments sorc/rog/arcane trickster is more than nasty with the old touch o' death. namaste' the hamster
20goingon1232 07-20-05, 06:30 AM	From the Core Rules alone, I created a mage type character that walk into combat unarmed. To makes things worse, I made him into a Cle3/Sorc4. This is the build I used (and you will need very good stats for this): ECL8 Aasimar Cle3/Sorc4 Wis 22 Dex 18 Items: Monk's Belt, Gloves of Dex, Cloak of Cha, Periapt of Wis Total gold used = 25k out of 27k standard ECL8 starting gold AC = 21 (flatfooted 17, touch 21) Sorc Spells: Mage Armour, Grease, Alter Self Cle Spells: Shield of Faith, Barkskin (Plant Domain) Mage Armour 24/7 Barkskin on hold by Familiar In combat, Round 1: Familiar discharges Barkskin, you cast Alter Self (to Ice Mephit for 50ft perfect fly and +4 Natural AC) Round 2: Your AC = 21 + 4(Mage Armour) + 2(Barkskin) + 4(NAC) +1(Size) = 32 Very few CR8 monsters can hit you with that kind of AC. It can only increase if you decide to Alter Form into a higher NAC creature (Trogs is good for Humanoids, Azer for Outsiders). The Shield spell will also increase AC. You can do all this much better with a Grey Elf Cle3/Wiz3/MT2 or a Tiefling Cle3/Wiz3/MT1, but I was hampered by a DM's setting's rules. Cast any touch spell you want (I like Chill Touch because of the duration). Of course, if you want to rely on touch spells, there is no reason not to have Quickened versions of those spells. A Quickened Truestrike is also recommended for those shots you just HAVE to hit.
SeidonVanDolf 07-20-05, 06:56 AM	Here is a list of feats that according to The Complete Arcane (published by WotC under the official D&D logo for you fanatics) work well with spells. Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Stunning Fist, Improved Critical, Improved Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Some of them are a bit surprising I thought. Anyway they rock if used properly, especially Stunning Fist if you use a lot of touch spells. Hope this helps.
Red_Ninja 07-20-05, 09:13 AM	true strike is just so essential, especially if you want to be touch-attacking the BBEG, and not just minions... also- if you can afford/arrange it... try casting contigency spells that activate upon melee combat conditions or when you say/yell your charge! battlecry... That way you don't lose precious round "pumping up"...
Bsauey 07-22-05, 10:42 PM	Sorry. But yeah maybe some monk levels might help with the touch attacks only because that is what the monk is best at.
cloud04 07-23-05, 07:00 AM	I can't remember what book it is, but there is a class called Battle Sorceror. The class allows you to wear light armor and weild a weapon, with no spell failure. It has a d8 hitdie or d6, cant remember. I had a person in my group who tried it out, it worked really good, but your spell selection is smaller and how many spells you can cast is smaller, but still if you build it right, its a good class to look at.
spoogemonkey 07-29-05, 06:03 PM	I once played a swamp witch.... that was a druid off-shoot.... she would wild-shape as a raven..... and swoop down and do fly-by touch attacks from the school of necromancy... (she did take weapon focus - touch)
Yoho1.5 08-01-05, 02:12 PM	Remember on most spells you can hold a charge indefinately! (see PBH pg176, for specifics) So you should cast your touch spells out of Hand to Hand Combat, preferably before it starts, and then wade in, in order to avoid Concentration Checks, and AoEs. Delay action is your friend, with touch wizards your spells should be used to finish foes, rather than soften them up. So wait out the initiative order until the BBEG has just gone, then run in to touch, that way the BBEG will be softened up by the other players first so your touch might finnish him, and if he doesn't go down the rest of the party will get a turn to take him out before the BBEG's turn comes up again. Know your Touch Spells! Shocking Grasp, is a better damage dealer than Lighting Bolt, for quite a few levels, because Shocking Grasp doesn't allow a save which offsets its 5d6 max! Spectral hand is a must have for the touch wizard. Bestow Curse, and Vamp Touch are very heavy hitters for their level! The weakness of the touch route is that the spells are all single target and close range so you should augment your spell list with some Area Effect and batllefield control spells in case you meet a mob of monsters, or ranged attackers. As for feats while the spring attack route has merits for the touch caster, other feats also work well. Metamagics like Quicken, Maximize, Empower, Heighten work well because there are alot of good low level touch spells that can be meta-ed at an early level. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration should not be overlooked as almost all of the Touch spells are do onto others spells that have to beat SR. While touch ACs are usually the worst ACs so most touching is easy, casters BAB sucks so Weapon Focus (touch) might help, and you can probably talk your DM into allowing Weapon Finesse (touch). Because touching is easy, and you'll be in the front Combat Expertise might help out your suck AC.
djamidin 08-01-05, 04:46 PM	thanks that helps a lot all. i am thinkering of a touch caster with a natural fly speed. im am trying to find ways to fly the farthest reach and touching and be out of a spellcasters counterspelling all the time. this means i have to fly double the 400+40/level and touch the foe and then be out of range again. if i am not mistaken then with the spring attack i could take a move action in range-touch and move out again. And the flyby attack helps a lot to. if i take up the arcane reach twice with arch mage then i have a 60 feet i do not have to fly to. If i take up a lot of hide and maybe even a hide in plain sight then i would potentially do a lot of touching damage because i will return te the dark after making attacks. The metamagic feat silence, quicken and still are my best friends then. i am still thinkering him out
Angus Cotton 08-01-05, 10:44 PM	be careful with the lich in melee stuff. All you have to do is find a Improved Triping melee in a well placed Anti-Magic Shell, and you will never get up from the first trip.
20goingon1232 08-02-05, 12:38 AM	Remember on most spells you can hold a charge indefinately! (see PBH pg176, for specifics) So you should cast your touch spells out of Hand to Hand Combat, preferably before it starts, and then wade in, in order to avoid Concentration Checks, and AoEs. Delay action is your friend, with touch wizards your spells should be used to finish foes, rather than soften them up. So wait out the initiative order until the BBEG has just gone, then run in to touch, that way the BBEG will be softened up by the other players first so your touch might finnish him, and if he doesn't go down the rest of the party will get a turn to take him out before the BBEG's turn comes up again. Know your Touch Spells! Shocking Grasp, is a better damage dealer than Lighting Bolt, for quite a few levels, because Shocking Grasp doesn't allow a save which offsets its 5d6 max! Spectral hand is a must have for the touch wizard. Bestow Curse, and Vamp Touch are very heavy hitters for their level! The weakness of the touch route is that the spells are all single target and close range so you should augment your spell list with some Area Effect and batllefield control spells in case you meet a mob of monsters, or ranged attackers. As for feats while the spring attack route has merits for the touch caster, other feats also work well. Metamagics like Quicken, Maximize, Empower, Heighten work well because there are alot of good low level touch spells that can be meta-ed at an early level. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration should not be overlooked as almost all of the Touch spells are do onto others spells that have to beat SR. While touch ACs are usually the worst ACs so most touching is easy, casters BAB sucks so Weapon Focus (touch) might help, and you can probably talk your DM into allowing Weapon Finesse (touch). Because touching is easy, and you'll be in the front Combat Expertise might help out your suck AC. I believe Weapon Finesse already work on Touch attacks as it is considered an armed unarmed attack and all unarmed attacks are Finesse-able. Also, another feat you might want to play with is Spring Attack or Fly-By Attack.
Yoho1.5 08-02-05, 11:56 AM	Ohh! I read the feat, but didn't read the unarmed attack description in equipment, I guess I learned something new. I guess that can happen when I have never DMed or played monk since 1st ed., no one here likes monks. :embarrass
Puskara 08-03-05, 06:50 AM	My wife and I did this. She had to take no feats and no special preparation was needed. I just played a Deep halfling Barbarian / Devoted Defender. With mithril full plate and a good DEX we were charging up to things and I was taking AOOs left and right. I took all the hits for her when she cast (never defensivley) and hit them back for trying. If you don't have another player who is willing you can take leadership and build a cohort. Since you are a lich I suggest using the half-ghast or half-zombie template from dragon. It has a level 1 adjust ment as I recall and give very nice ability and extreamly harsh penalties in areas you would not care about (-8 to skill checks requiring fine manipulation, etc, etc). Puskara
Twisted Puppy 08-03-05, 10:16 AM	I've made NPC wizards (usually bad guys) who concentrated on spells that did not allow saves. Obviously, a lot of these were touch and ranged-touch spells. Spectral Hand is an obvious spell to have for any mage specializing in touch spells. Waves of Exhaustion is a great plus for a caster specializing in close-range spells. Slows down the enemy, and reduces the reflex saves of those pesky rogues and rangers...