Having your cake and eating it too (about liches) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Having your cake and eating it too (about liches) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Quenditar
04-18-04, 02:44 AM If you're a short-lived spellcaster with a long-term project, lichdom seems like a good idea. However, being a lich would seem to generally ruin social interaction - even if you can disguise yourself as a survivor of starvation, there's still that aura of fear and the unfortunate ability to paralyze anyone you touch (must make shaking hands a real problem). Is there any way to get around these and still retain the useful characteristics of being a lich (particularly returning to life and the immunities)?
Veton
04-18-04, 02:48 AM Well, the paralyzing touch is something you have to "activate" to use. It might be the same with the aura, but I'm not too sure.
Lord_of_Rabbits
04-18-04, 06:29 AM I think the aura is more something along the lines of you being so evil and vile as a powerful undead that everyone can just feel it when you are near them. It might very well be an (un)fortunate side effect of being such a powerful undead, that it's just too strong to mask.
Lilian The Lady Ghost
04-18-04, 08:01 AM It's part of the flavour of being a lich to have some problems in social interactions, however you have your spells and can use them to your advantage.
Magic jar, Dominate person, Polymorph self and so no
pog
04-18-04, 08:50 AM Maybe that explains why lich-lords usually get their minions and hirelings to do most of the social interaction on their behalf, sort of a Mouth of Sauron thing.

Polymorph, alter-self etc. useful, but not entirely foolproof ( tend to just change physical appearance, not SU abilities etc. Real problem with detection etc. )
Steelwill
04-18-04, 09:58 AM I would assume<---note use of most vile term on D&D boards, that since an ability as inherent as spell resistance can be supressed at will, almost any other ability can as well. Again, I am making an assumption, and we all know how that goes. My 2 cents, hope it helps.
Nyat
04-18-04, 12:00 PM You could try using one of the non-evil liches from the back of Monsters of Fearun. I dont think they have fear auras. And if you want to look normal, just remember to cast Gentle repose every once and a while.
Quenditar
04-18-04, 12:10 PM I'd thought of using Alter Self, but on a strict reading of the spell a lich could only turn into other undead of 5 HD or less, and not even a weak vampire (which would be passable for disguise). Polymorph would work well, except for the short duration. Would a magic item that casts polymorph continuously cost about 112,000 gp?

I know it's part of the idea that liches don't do well with social interaction. I'm just working with this for a character who would be strongly tempted to become a lich, but whose power lies in manipulation and other social interaction. He would be willing to pay a lot of money to get around lich problems so he can get back to defrauding merchants, becoming a trusted advisor to royalty, and doing whatever other evil strikes his fancy.
ksbsnowowl
04-18-04, 01:27 PM Do they still have the Hat of Disguise in 3.5? I would think that such a handy 2000 gp item would take care of much of your problems (though I'm not sure how it would interact with changes to change self/alter self.)

Also, couldn't you use Alter self to turn into a Vampire Spawn? IIRC, those are specifically made due to having 5 or fewer hit dice.

An extended Magic Jar could be another option (as someone else mentioned). Just switch into the new body at 'home' and carry the gem with you. If the social mission will take less than a day, you should be fine. And if anyone dispells your MJ, you won't die, even though your body is out of range. (Although I suppose you would generate a new body near your phylactery; that would be really strange - you could go look at your own corpse. That is unless I'm forgetting something like your old body dissolving as your new one forms, or something of that nature.)
Edymnion
04-18-04, 01:39 PM Yeah, check Monsters of Faerun, page 90, for the Good Lich and the Archlich. They're good aligned Liches that chose undeath so they could carry out far reaching plots for the benefit of the world, instead of for their own evil purposes. Might be just what you're looking for.
Nyat
04-18-04, 01:51 PM I still say that gentle repose would work. Who would know you were undead if your body didnt decompose at all?
Quenditar
04-18-04, 01:51 PM Originally posted by ksbsnowowl
Do they still have the Hat of Disguise in 3.5? I would think that such a handy 2000 gp item would take care of much of your problems (though I'm not sure how it would interact with changes to change self/alter self.)

Yes, they do, and the price has even gone down to 1800 gp. It's the obvious first item to use; in a society that frowns on physical contact, a lich could get away with using one indefinitely. The only problem is that it allows a Will save to recognize the shape as an illusion - imagine a large dance party! (I suppose the right response is to have specially-made clothes that cover up the bones.)

Also, couldn't you use Alter self to turn into a Vampire Spawn? IIRC, those are specifically made due to having 5 or fewer hit dice.
That would work very well.

An extended Magic Jar could be another option (as someone else mentioned). Just switch into the new body at 'home' and carry the gem with you. If the social mission will take less than a day, you should be fine. And if anyone dispells your MJ, you won't die, even though your body is out of range. (Although I suppose you would generate a new body near your phylactery; that would be really strange - you could go look at your own corpse. That is unless I'm forgetting something like your old body dissolving as your new one forms, or something of that nature.)
That's not a bad solution, though if you've got the day to spare I wonder if Dominate Person and spending the whole day concentrating on the spell (and updating orders) wouldn't work better.
The_Lawbringer
04-18-04, 01:51 PM I would think the Fear aura of a lich works kind of like the Commanding aura of the Breastplate of Command.Since the effect arises in great part from the distinctiveness of the armor, the wearer cannot hide or conceal herself in any way and still have the effect function.
So if the lich were to wear a lot of clothes and try not to be noticed or scary, I think the fear aura would be suppressed.
Quenditar
04-18-04, 01:58 PM Originally posted by Edymnion
Yeah, check Monsters of Faerun, page 90, for the Good Lich and the Archlich. They're good aligned Liches that chose undeath so they could carry out far reaching plots for the benefit of the world, instead of for their own evil purposes. Might be just what you're looking for.
I'll keep that in mind for the future. The character I'm working with, though, is decidedly evil. He has concluded that the most efficient way to obtain anything is to get someone else to do it. Therefore, he's studying psychology in the hope of becoming such a master at manipulation as to become effectively the most powerful person in the world (gods aren't on the agenda anytime soon). Obviously, this is a long-term project. Also, he's a human, and knows that his time is shorter than most everyone else's.
Quenditar
04-18-04, 02:01 PM Originally posted by Nyat
I still say that gentle repose would work. Who would know you were undead if your body didnt decompose at all?
It's a good idea, but I'm not sure it would work. Maybe part of the ritual results in the body being reduced to a skeletal form. After all, new lich bodies presumably aren't in a pristine state either.
Korhal IV
04-18-04, 10:43 PM Aren't undead immune to polymorph? That'd be a problem.

However, try polymorphing your familiar, and sending him/her/it out as your representative. It can't quite think as fast as you, but it can always ask for orders from you, and it will never betray you. Use Contingency+Teleport to prevent it from getting in over its head.
EmirikolTheChaotic
04-18-04, 11:13 PM Originally posted by Korhal IV
Aren't undead immune to polymorph? That'd be a problem.While they're immune to polymorph, Liches can still polymorph themselves.
Phist
04-18-04, 11:41 PM Also, couldn't you use Alter self to turn into a Vampire Spawn? IIRC, those are specifically made due to having 5 or fewer hit dice.
And being a vampire is so much better for social interaction...
Quenditar
04-19-04, 12:45 AM Originally posted by Phist
And being a vampire is so much better for social interaction...
Well...better than a lich. Which isn't saying a whole lot. But from there it would be easier to use Disguise Self to camouflage facial features and other giveaways, and a lich, altered to look like a vampire spawn, disguised as a human, doesn't pick up vampiric disabilities like the weakness to sunlight.

BTW, on re-reading, to paralyze the lich has to hit with a touch attack. I don't think just shaking hands and not attacking with negative energy qualifies as a touch attack.
Mr.Waesel
04-19-04, 09:05 AM Originally posted by Quenditar
The only problem is that it allows a Will save to recognize the shape as an illusion - imagine a large dance party! (I suppose the right response is to have specially-made clothes that cover up the bones.)

Only if interacted with. You don't get a save for just looking at the Lich, only when you shake his hand a feel bones, for example.
Millennium
04-19-04, 09:53 AM If new bodies are what you need, then take a bunch of ranks in Craft (sculpture) and learn Stone to Flesh. It's said outright that casting this on a statue of a humanoid creates a corpse, which one would think would be suitable for possession. This gets around the problem of needing fresh bodies, while removing the necessity of killing anyone (thus allowing nonevil liches access to a constant supply that doesn't cause alignment trouble).
The_Lawbringer
04-19-04, 08:14 PM How do you propose possesion? The Lich cannot simply posses things, his soul is locked in the phylactery, and to use the Magic Jar spell, the rocks would need a soul to put into the Jar. Otherwise I suppose it would work.
PhaedrusXY
04-20-04, 04:50 AM Originally posted by Quenditar
It's a good idea, but I'm not sure it would work. Maybe part of the ritual results in the body being reduced to a skeletal form. After all, new lich bodies presumably aren't in a pristine state either. I don't think this is said anywhere. You're just assuming as much. If I'm wrong, please point out where it says this. Of course, this is a reasonable way to roleplay the change, but not everyone does this in their games. I would think using Gentle Repose to preserve your body is entirely reasonable and could keep your "corpse" looking nice for a long time.

Of course, if it gets damaged it isn't going to heal. And even if you heal it through negative energy, it still probably won't look right. A lich's body doesn't have to be in good condition to continue to serve as the vessel for his consciousness, obviously.
Cloud Strife
04-20-04, 05:23 AM Originally posted by Millennium
If new bodies are what you need, then take a bunch of ranks in Craft (sculpture) and learn Stone to Flesh. It's said outright that casting this on a statue of a humanoid creates a corpse, which one would think would be suitable for possession. This gets around the problem of needing fresh bodies, while removing the necessity of killing anyone (thus allowing nonevil liches access to a constant supply that doesn't cause alignment trouble).

Uhm, then you'd need a whole lot of wear-proof make-up too, to make things like eyes, and lips and stuff like that look real... Remember that stone to flesh makes just flesh. I wouldn't think it would make organs, eyes, hair, blood veins or anything of the like. No nails either. You'd basically get a big lump of flesh that is in the shape of a human body. This is how I'd rule it atleast.

Unless the statue was a person before it was turned to stone, but then you'd have to kill that person after the spell was cast anyway.

Disclaimer: The above is just an opinion.
Millennium
04-20-04, 06:10 AM Originally posted by Cloud Strife
Uhm, then you'd need a whole lot of wear-proof make-up too, to make things like eyes, and lips and stuff like that look real... Remember that stone to flesh makes just flesh. I wouldn't think it would make organs, eyes, hair, blood veins or anything of the like. No nails either. You'd basically get a big lump of flesh that is in the shape of a human body. This is how I'd rule it atleast.
PHB page 285: "For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse".

The word "corpse" implies a complete body, lacking a soul (which the spell description points out) but otherwise functional. The 2nd Edition description used "body" in place of "corpse", but again this implies a complete human body.

Does it make sense? No way. That's why this is a game.
pres_man
04-20-04, 03:35 PM Become a druid with another druid as your trusted ally. Then as you get older kill yourself and have your ally cast reincarnation. You come back with a fresh new young adult body. Of course you'll be a random species, but oh well. Offer your ally the same option. You two can continue on indefinitely as long as at least one is alive to cast the spell for the other.
The_Lawbringer
04-20-04, 04:16 PM Become a druid with another druid as your trusted ally. Then as you get older kill yourself and have your ally cast reincarnation. You come back with a fresh new young adult body. Of course you'll be a random species, but oh well. Offer your ally the same option. You two can continue on indefinitely as long as at least one is alive to cast the spell for the other.
kinda takes away the point of being a Lich... it'd be a cool idea granted, but this thread is about becoming a lich and trying to interact with people along with the advantages/disadvantages of doing so (at least, to my understanding it is).

[Edit=spelling]
pres_man
04-20-04, 04:23 PM If you're a short-lived spellcaster with a long-term project, lichdom seems like a good idea.

So being reincarnated would be perhaps a better idea, assuming that the project could be done with druid spells.
The_Lawbringer
04-20-04, 04:39 PM Is there any way to get around these and still retain the useful characteristics of being a lich (particularly returning to life and the immunities)?

like i said Lichdom
Quenditar
04-20-04, 08:41 PM One hole in the reincarnation scheme is that it can't bring back a creature who has died of old age. Granted, the spell says that a new young adult body is created, but I doubt that any DM would allow immortality though reincarnation, especially since the spell does not state that it removes ability score changes due to aging. It doesn't make sense that complicated ways of cheating death would develop if getting around death were as easy as having a friendly/dominated Druid on hand, or even having a magic item that automatically casts Reincarnation every fifty years or upon the wearer's death.
wdarkk
04-21-04, 03:13 AM The level loss might be a hole in that plan...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quenditar 04-18-04, 02:44 AM	If you're a short-lived spellcaster with a long-term project, lichdom seems like a good idea. However, being a lich would seem to generally ruin social interaction - even if you can disguise yourself as a survivor of starvation, there's still that aura of fear and the unfortunate ability to paralyze anyone you touch (must make shaking hands a real problem). Is there any way to get around these and still retain the useful characteristics of being a lich (particularly returning to life and the immunities)?
Veton 04-18-04, 02:48 AM	Well, the paralyzing touch is something you have to "activate" to use. It might be the same with the aura, but I'm not too sure.
Lord_of_Rabbits 04-18-04, 06:29 AM	I think the aura is more something along the lines of you being so evil and vile as a powerful undead that everyone can just feel it when you are near them. It might very well be an (un)fortunate side effect of being such a powerful undead, that it's just too strong to mask.
Lilian The Lady Ghost 04-18-04, 08:01 AM	It's part of the flavour of being a lich to have some problems in social interactions, however you have your spells and can use them to your advantage. Magic jar, Dominate person, Polymorph self and so no
pog 04-18-04, 08:50 AM	Maybe that explains why lich-lords usually get their minions and hirelings to do most of the social interaction on their behalf, sort of a Mouth of Sauron thing. Polymorph, alter-self etc. useful, but not entirely foolproof ( tend to just change physical appearance, not SU abilities etc. Real problem with detection etc. )
Steelwill 04-18-04, 09:58 AM	I would assume<---note use of most vile term on D&D boards, that since an ability as inherent as spell resistance can be supressed at will, almost any other ability can as well. Again, I am making an assumption, and we all know how that goes. My 2 cents, hope it helps.
Nyat 04-18-04, 12:00 PM	You could try using one of the non-evil liches from the back of Monsters of Fearun. I dont think they have fear auras. And if you want to look normal, just remember to cast Gentle repose every once and a while.
Quenditar 04-18-04, 12:10 PM	I'd thought of using Alter Self, but on a strict reading of the spell a lich could only turn into other undead of 5 HD or less, and not even a weak vampire (which would be passable for disguise). Polymorph would work well, except for the short duration. Would a magic item that casts polymorph continuously cost about 112,000 gp? I know it's part of the idea that liches don't do well with social interaction. I'm just working with this for a character who would be strongly tempted to become a lich, but whose power lies in manipulation and other social interaction. He would be willing to pay a lot of money to get around lich problems so he can get back to defrauding merchants, becoming a trusted advisor to royalty, and doing whatever other evil strikes his fancy.
ksbsnowowl 04-18-04, 01:27 PM	Do they still have the Hat of Disguise in 3.5? I would think that such a handy 2000 gp item would take care of much of your problems (though I'm not sure how it would interact with changes to change self/alter self.) Also, couldn't you use Alter self to turn into a Vampire Spawn? IIRC, those are specifically made due to having 5 or fewer hit dice. An extended Magic Jar could be another option (as someone else mentioned). Just switch into the new body at 'home' and carry the gem with you. If the social mission will take less than a day, you should be fine. And if anyone dispells your MJ, you won't die, even though your body is out of range. (Although I suppose you would generate a new body near your phylactery; that would be really strange - you could go look at your own corpse. That is unless I'm forgetting something like your old body dissolving as your new one forms, or something of that nature.)
Edymnion 04-18-04, 01:39 PM	Yeah, check Monsters of Faerun, page 90, for the Good Lich and the Archlich. They're good aligned Liches that chose undeath so they could carry out far reaching plots for the benefit of the world, instead of for their own evil purposes. Might be just what you're looking for.
Nyat 04-18-04, 01:51 PM	I still say that gentle repose would work. Who would know you were undead if your body didnt decompose at all?
Quenditar 04-18-04, 01:51 PM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl Do they still have the Hat of Disguise in 3.5? I would think that such a handy 2000 gp item would take care of much of your problems (though I'm not sure how it would interact with changes to change self/alter self.) Yes, they do, and the price has even gone down to 1800 gp. It's the obvious first item to use; in a society that frowns on physical contact, a lich could get away with using one indefinitely. The only problem is that it allows a Will save to recognize the shape as an illusion - imagine a large dance party! (I suppose the right response is to have specially-made clothes that cover up the bones.) Also, couldn't you use Alter self to turn into a Vampire Spawn? IIRC, those are specifically made due to having 5 or fewer hit dice. That would work very well. An extended Magic Jar could be another option (as someone else mentioned). Just switch into the new body at 'home' and carry the gem with you. If the social mission will take less than a day, you should be fine. And if anyone dispells your MJ, you won't die, even though your body is out of range. (Although I suppose you would generate a new body near your phylactery; that would be really strange - you could go look at your own corpse. That is unless I'm forgetting something like your old body dissolving as your new one forms, or something of that nature.) That's not a bad solution, though if you've got the day to spare I wonder if Dominate Person and spending the whole day concentrating on the spell (and updating orders) wouldn't work better.
The_Lawbringer 04-18-04, 01:51 PM	I would think the Fear aura of a lich works kind of like the Commanding aura of the Breastplate of Command.Since the effect arises in great part from the distinctiveness of the armor, the wearer cannot hide or conceal herself in any way and still have the effect function. So if the lich were to wear a lot of clothes and try not to be noticed or scary, I think the fear aura would be suppressed.
Quenditar 04-18-04, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Yeah, check Monsters of Faerun, page 90, for the Good Lich and the Archlich. They're good aligned Liches that chose undeath so they could carry out far reaching plots for the benefit of the world, instead of for their own evil purposes. Might be just what you're looking for. I'll keep that in mind for the future. The character I'm working with, though, is decidedly evil. He has concluded that the most efficient way to obtain anything is to get someone else to do it. Therefore, he's studying psychology in the hope of becoming such a master at manipulation as to become effectively the most powerful person in the world (gods aren't on the agenda anytime soon). Obviously, this is a long-term project. Also, he's a human, and knows that his time is shorter than most everyone else's.
Quenditar 04-18-04, 02:01 PM	Originally posted by Nyat I still say that gentle repose would work. Who would know you were undead if your body didnt decompose at all? It's a good idea, but I'm not sure it would work. Maybe part of the ritual results in the body being reduced to a skeletal form. After all, new lich bodies presumably aren't in a pristine state either.
Korhal IV 04-18-04, 10:43 PM	Aren't undead immune to polymorph? That'd be a problem. However, try polymorphing your familiar, and sending him/her/it out as your representative. It can't quite think as fast as you, but it can always ask for orders from you, and it will never betray you. Use Contingency+Teleport to prevent it from getting in over its head.
EmirikolTheChaotic 04-18-04, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by Korhal IV Aren't undead immune to polymorph? That'd be a problem.While they're immune to polymorph, Liches can still polymorph themselves.
Phist 04-18-04, 11:41 PM	Also, couldn't you use Alter self to turn into a Vampire Spawn? IIRC, those are specifically made due to having 5 or fewer hit dice. And being a vampire is so much better for social interaction...
Quenditar 04-19-04, 12:45 AM	Originally posted by Phist And being a vampire is so much better for social interaction... Well...better than a lich. Which isn't saying a whole lot. But from there it would be easier to use Disguise Self to camouflage facial features and other giveaways, and a lich, altered to look like a vampire spawn, disguised as a human, doesn't pick up vampiric disabilities like the weakness to sunlight. BTW, on re-reading, to paralyze the lich has to hit with a touch attack. I don't think just shaking hands and not attacking with negative energy qualifies as a touch attack.
Mr.Waesel 04-19-04, 09:05 AM	Originally posted by Quenditar The only problem is that it allows a Will save to recognize the shape as an illusion - imagine a large dance party! (I suppose the right response is to have specially-made clothes that cover up the bones.) Only if interacted with. You don't get a save for just looking at the Lich, only when you shake his hand a feel bones, for example.
Millennium 04-19-04, 09:53 AM	If new bodies are what you need, then take a bunch of ranks in Craft (sculpture) and learn Stone to Flesh. It's said outright that casting this on a statue of a humanoid creates a corpse, which one would think would be suitable for possession. This gets around the problem of needing fresh bodies, while removing the necessity of killing anyone (thus allowing nonevil liches access to a constant supply that doesn't cause alignment trouble).
The_Lawbringer 04-19-04, 08:14 PM	How do you propose possesion? The Lich cannot simply posses things, his soul is locked in the phylactery, and to use the Magic Jar spell, the rocks would need a soul to put into the Jar. Otherwise I suppose it would work.
PhaedrusXY 04-20-04, 04:50 AM	Originally posted by Quenditar It's a good idea, but I'm not sure it would work. Maybe part of the ritual results in the body being reduced to a skeletal form. After all, new lich bodies presumably aren't in a pristine state either. I don't think this is said anywhere. You're just assuming as much. If I'm wrong, please point out where it says this. Of course, this is a reasonable way to roleplay the change, but not everyone does this in their games. I would think using Gentle Repose to preserve your body is entirely reasonable and could keep your "corpse" looking nice for a long time. Of course, if it gets damaged it isn't going to heal. And even if you heal it through negative energy, it still probably won't look right. A lich's body doesn't have to be in good condition to continue to serve as the vessel for his consciousness, obviously.
Cloud Strife 04-20-04, 05:23 AM	Originally posted by Millennium If new bodies are what you need, then take a bunch of ranks in Craft (sculpture) and learn Stone to Flesh. It's said outright that casting this on a statue of a humanoid creates a corpse, which one would think would be suitable for possession. This gets around the problem of needing fresh bodies, while removing the necessity of killing anyone (thus allowing nonevil liches access to a constant supply that doesn't cause alignment trouble). Uhm, then you'd need a whole lot of wear-proof make-up too, to make things like eyes, and lips and stuff like that look real... Remember that stone to flesh makes just flesh. I wouldn't think it would make organs, eyes, hair, blood veins or anything of the like. No nails either. You'd basically get a big lump of flesh that is in the shape of a human body. This is how I'd rule it atleast. Unless the statue was a person before it was turned to stone, but then you'd have to kill that person after the spell was cast anyway. Disclaimer: The above is just an opinion.
Millennium 04-20-04, 06:10 AM	Originally posted by Cloud Strife Uhm, then you'd need a whole lot of wear-proof make-up too, to make things like eyes, and lips and stuff like that look real... Remember that stone to flesh makes just flesh. I wouldn't think it would make organs, eyes, hair, blood veins or anything of the like. No nails either. You'd basically get a big lump of flesh that is in the shape of a human body. This is how I'd rule it atleast. PHB page 285: "For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse". The word "corpse" implies a complete body, lacking a soul (which the spell description points out) but otherwise functional. The 2nd Edition description used "body" in place of "corpse", but again this implies a complete human body. Does it make sense? No way. That's why this is a game.
pres_man 04-20-04, 03:35 PM	Become a druid with another druid as your trusted ally. Then as you get older kill yourself and have your ally cast reincarnation. You come back with a fresh new young adult body. Of course you'll be a random species, but oh well. Offer your ally the same option. You two can continue on indefinitely as long as at least one is alive to cast the spell for the other.
The_Lawbringer 04-20-04, 04:16 PM	Become a druid with another druid as your trusted ally. Then as you get older kill yourself and have your ally cast reincarnation. You come back with a fresh new young adult body. Of course you'll be a random species, but oh well. Offer your ally the same option. You two can continue on indefinitely as long as at least one is alive to cast the spell for the other. kinda takes away the point of being a Lich... it'd be a cool idea granted, but this thread is about becoming a lich and trying to interact with people along with the advantages/disadvantages of doing so (at least, to my understanding it is). [Edit=spelling]
pres_man 04-20-04, 04:23 PM	If you're a short-lived spellcaster with a long-term project, lichdom seems like a good idea. So being reincarnated would be perhaps a better idea, assuming that the project could be done with druid spells.
The_Lawbringer 04-20-04, 04:39 PM	Is there any way to get around these and still retain the useful characteristics of being a lich (particularly returning to life and the immunities)? like i said Lichdom
Quenditar 04-20-04, 08:41 PM	One hole in the reincarnation scheme is that it can't bring back a creature who has died of old age. Granted, the spell says that a new young adult body is created, but I doubt that any DM would allow immortality though reincarnation, especially since the spell does not state that it removes ability score changes due to aging. It doesn't make sense that complicated ways of cheating death would develop if getting around death were as easy as having a friendly/dominated Druid on hand, or even having a magic item that automatically casts Reincarnation every fifty years or upon the wearer's death.
wdarkk 04-21-04, 03:13 AM	The level loss might be a hole in that plan...