Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Symeon_Quykk 02-07-08, 06:29 PM	Well, I have some questions about an MIC item called the Healing Belt. Background... we just hit 3rd level and my wizard took Craft Wondrous Item as his feat. First thing I did was start looking for things to craft to help out the party. I found the Healing Belt and thought WOW! Since we just got on the favorable side of the Luminous Order in our Slaughtergarde campaign, I thought it would be easy to find a cleric to cast cure mod wounds for its creation. We only have one divine spellcaster (a druid) and if he was to go down in combat, we'd be hardpressed to get him back on his feet. I thought if someone other than the druid was able to do a little healing, the overall party would be better off for it! Now, at this point, I let my DM have a look at my sweet belt I wanted to make. He looked it over and said it looked a little TOO good for the price and didn't like the 3 new charges everyday and it never runs out. He was probably thinking that we would use it to save money on healing (potions, wands, etc) and thought I was trying pull a fast one on him. Now I agree that we would save money on alternative healing methods, but I'm willing to work with him to make something "balanced" and still useful. I was thinking of using the item as a "oh ****, the druid went down last round and HE had the ONLY wand of CLW!!!" problem-fixer and a way for the druid to make better use of his spell slots by not having to take cure spells as much and expanding his spell use. I have suggested a few things to the DM to make this thing work. I have suggest to reducing the healing to 1d8 for 1 charge, 2d8 for 2, and 3d8 for 3. I have also thrown the option of the belt only regaining 1 charge per day (making it still useable, but it would have a more "last option" feel to it) instead of gaining all 3 charges each day. Any suggestions on other ways to adjust the Healing Belt (MIC) to be more DM-friendly, but still a useful item would be much appreciated. I also tried to explain that since I invested a feat (CWI) and my XP into making these things, I should be able to make SOMETHING CLOSE if it's not the Healing Belt in the MIC. Thanks in advance!!!
Firesti 02-07-08, 08:56 PM	If you have the prerequisites to make it, you should be able to make the Healing Belt as written. If your DM has a problem with you being able to make sources of healing that more than 1 person can use, then he needs to realize that he is setting his players up for some serious delays, as when that one person drops, and assuming a Heal check succeeds in stablizing them, theres going to be either money spent on healing spells...at a town...or money spent resting in an inn...at at town. Maybe have the DM change the flavor, and you can only make that one Healing Belt as you made it by pure accident, and can't remember how you did so. (Or maybe it was made by accident by someone else, and is limited for the same reasons, but he's short on cash and is trying to sell it.) But, IMHO, you DM should let you make as many as you want, as written. After all, that's why magic items cost XP to make...or, if you're evil like me, souls.
Firesti 02-08-08, 11:06 AM	P.S. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900290)
DrMorganes 02-08-08, 11:53 AM	3 charges per day, forever, is far from broken. Lots of magic items have a daily potency. The only thing that's changed with the Healing Belt is the bit in the text that specifies when the charges renew. Honestly, that's an improvement. 6d8 healing each day is an average of 24 hp. That's enough at lower levels (Levels 3 to 6 or so) to heal anyone in the party with a d6 or smaller hit die.
Mysteria 02-08-08, 01:26 PM	Saving money ... Well, yes, you do in the long run, but after all a wand of CLW with 50 charges is only 750gp too - and isn't limited in how often you can use it per day in case you need more than 3x2d6 in a day. *shrugs* I think he's overreacting.
StSteven 02-08-08, 03:34 PM	That item is far from broken. If you nerf it, it isn't worth making. Best thing to do, if you have to compromise, is ask him to set a price on the belt. He will then make up an unbalanced price not based on the game mechanics, and you will make a belt that is too costly, but better than nothing.
UAMDB 02-08-08, 04:01 PM	Your DM does realize that unlike potions and wands the healing belt uses up a Magic Item Slot. The belt slot, which most fighter types like to use for Belts of Gaint Str. I think it is more than enough of a fair trade off.
CryoSilver 02-08-08, 04:09 PM	The belt costs 900 gp, right? And at optimal use, it heals an average of 27 hp/day. A wand of CLW heals 5.5 damage per charge, so five charge heals 27.5 hp. The wand of CLW also costs 150 gp less than the Belt, and has the advantage of not running out after 6d8 healing each day. Assuming you use the belt and wand at the same rate, the belt starts netting savings after 12 days, on average. That is, at 4 encounters per day, 48 encounters, or just under 4 levels. Of course, you'll probably need far more than 27 hp of healing each day...
Nephlite 02-08-08, 04:58 PM	The belt costs 900 gp, right? And at optimal use, it heals an average of 27 hp/day. A wand of CLW heals 5.5 damage per charge, so five charge heals 27.5 hp. The wand of CLW also costs 150 gp less than the Belt, and has the advantage of not running out after 6d8 healing each day. Assuming you use the belt and wand at the same rate, the belt starts netting savings after 12 days, on average. That is, at 4 encounters per day, 48 encounters, or just under 4 levels. Of course, you'll probably need far more than 27 hp of healing each day... Belt costs 750. Average healing 27 hp. Heals 1 hp per 27.7 gold. A Wand of CLW: Heals 50d8+50 (average 275 hp): 2.72 hp per 1 gold. The only benefit of the belt is anyone can use it and can use it again each day.
LordTarmos 02-08-08, 05:52 PM	Belt costs 750. Average healing 27 hp. Heals 1 hp per 27.7 gold. A Wand of CLW: Heals 50d8+50 (average 275 hp): 2.72 hp per 1 gold. The only benefit of the belt is anyone can use it and can use it again each day. nephlite i usually like what you have to say but in this case i say. this guy is definately no statistician, you forget the belt can be reused forever, it never fully runs out. however, it is always good to have a wand of cure light for in between the battles. uses are different for each item belt is good during battles, wand is better between them. per gp belt is by far better but hardly broken, 27 hp per day is nothing especially later. i say beware your dm, sounds like he is trying to make things hard on you. if he does not want you to make the belt, get him to let you make cure light wands. and buy the belt, he prob will not argue that.
Nephlite 02-08-08, 07:22 PM	nephlite i usually like what you have to say but in this case i say. Didn't know I had fans :cool: this guy is definately no statistician, you forget the belt can be reused forever, it never fully runs out. however, it is always good to have a wand of cure light for in between the battles. uses are different for each item belt is good during battles, wand is better between them. Well, of course wand give more uses so good in battle, but both are better after combat. Belt is less useful later, but does save money due to reuseable.
kelvinaw273 02-09-08, 06:59 AM	Well, I don't find the Healing Belt unbalanced at all. My party uses them, in fact they are practically standard equipment! The three charges per day limit works well, and we often use them as the first port of call for healing ourselves/each other. The party's divine caster is my Spirit Shaman, and I need to keep my limited spells known for a variety of tactical spells. Before we got the healing belts I was running around doing nothing but use the Wand of CLW and healing spells after about round three of any combat. Not only did this reduce our effectiveness, it wasn't much fun for me.
Jopustopin 03-12-08, 03:55 PM	Can you hold a charge if you miss your touch attack against the undead? Also one of my players wants a belt that channels negative energy instead of positive energy. Is this device to powerful for 750gp? His argument is you create it the same way but cast a 'equal and opposite' spell on it. He says he'll take a -2 heal check.
Dunsel 03-12-08, 05:33 PM	Any DM who would want to nerf such a basic magic item may want to give up his chair. Does he also nerf the fighter's sword? I mean, the sword can be swung at will, all day, every day. Seems silly to me. This DM probably never ran a campaign over 5th level. And if he did, he wasn't good at it. He is scared of a minor magic item. Imagine what he would want to do to a Staff of Power.
Salla 03-12-08, 05:45 PM	Can you hold a charge if you miss your touch attack against the undead? Also one of my players wants a belt that channels negative energy instead of positive energy. Is this device to powerful for 750gp? His argument is you create it the same way but cast a 'equal and opposite' spell on it. He says he'll take a -2 heal check. I would say it is. The MIC admits (or the design columsn leading up to it, one of the two) that any kind of formula for creating magic items doesn't really work and is only a basic guideline. And, honestly, is a -2 heal check penalty going to penalize this character at all? :)
Braithwaite 03-13-08, 09:38 AM	Now I agree that we would save money on alternative healing methods, but I'm willing to work with him to make something "balanced" and still useful. I was thinking of using the item as a "oh ****, the druid went down last round and HE had the ONLY wand of CLW!!!" problem-fixer and a way for the druid to make better use of his spell slots by not having to take cure spells as much and expanding his spell use. I have suggested a few things to the DM to make this thing work. I have suggest to reducing the healing to 1d8 for 1 charge, 2d8 for 2, and 3d8 for 3. I have also thrown the option of the belt only regaining 1 charge per day (making it still useable, but it would have a more "last option" feel to it) instead of gaining all 3 charges each day. I also tried to explain that since I invested a feat (CWI) and my XP into making these things, I should be able to make SOMETHING CLOSE if it's not the Healing Belt in the MIC. My party had the exact same debate. We settled on the 1d8 per charge solution, and it worked fine for several levels. When the healing got too weak, our DM let us make the belt as written for I think double cost. That worked fine also. I wish I had suggested the one charge per day limitation. The real difference between the Healing belt and the CLW wand is that the belt lets the non-healers get some healing in. As such, it would be better compared with the cost of a large number of cure light or moderate wounds potions. With the rules in the MIC, it doesn't prevent you from wearing your belt of giant strength, you just enchant the healing into the strength belt with the item creation rules for a small surcharge. Or, if you are too lazy to do that, after combat, the fighter takes off his strength belt, puts on the healing belt, heals, switches belts again. Side note. For me, the joy of the healing belt is that it lets your cleric/druid be an adventurer, not a healbot. When I heal for low level parties, I insist that all my party members give me the money to let me craft these things for them (once we have 500 gp each of course, and I spend the xp) or they get nothing from me but cure minors.
Sunic_Flames 03-13-08, 11:11 AM	I concur. Nothing wrong with not being forced into the healbot role. And nothing broken about the Healing Belt, it just means you might have in combat healing worth doing once a day, and can heal out of combat. A lesser vigor wand (why people keep saying CLW for out of combat I dunno) is going to work out better. Its main effect is changing how much downtime is glossed over. Hardly gamebreaking. Now if it were a Candle of Invocation...
runestar 03-13-08, 11:27 AM	A slight problem may arise when the party starts stocking up on belts of healing. At 750gp each, it is dirt cheap (and crafting takes just 1 day). A high lv PC can easily afford 30-50 of them, which should take care of his healing requirements for the day.:P A belt slot is irrelevant when you can still benefit from your belt of str+6, and swap out belts to heal in between combats (since it is generally more inefficient to heal during combat).
Ayra 03-13-08, 11:50 AM	nephlite i usually like what you have to say but in this case i say. this guy is definately no statistician, you forget the belt can be reused forever, it never fully runs out. however, it is always good to have a wand of cure light for in between the battles. uses are different for each item belt is good during battles, wand is better between them. per gp belt is by far better but hardly broken, 27 hp per day is nothing especially later. i say beware your dm, sounds like he is trying to make things hard on you. if he does not want you to make the belt, get him to let you make cure light wands. and buy the belt, he prob will not argue that. In between battles you use a wand of lesser vigor for 15 hitpoints per charge. That one is far better than a cure light wounds wand. The belt is just nice because your fighter can use it without having to quaff a potion or have the cleric walk over. edit: but of course someone posted this earlier :P
Sunic_Flames 03-13-08, 01:45 PM	If your wand is healing 15, you did something wrong. 11. But it costs 5 times less. If they start trying to cheese it out... um... "You must wear it for 24 hours before you can use it." Done.
Ayra 03-13-08, 03:32 PM	If your wand is healing 15, you did something wrong. 11. But it costs 5 times less. If they start trying to cheese it out... um... "You must wear it for 24 hours before you can use it." Done. Oh damn, you're right! That means we've been cheating our DM. I guess we misread it due to the "max 15 rounds" thing. Oh well, at least it's fixed now :P And still, 11 hitpoints is better than 1d8+1 anyway.
Sunic_Flames 03-13-08, 03:58 PM	Oh damn, you're right! That means we've been cheating our DM. I guess we misread it due to the "max 15 rounds" thing. Oh well, at least it's fixed now :P And still, 11 hitpoints is better than 1d8+1 anyway. Cheating the DM? That's not the default functioning. But it is an easy fix seeing as most of the x/day items either have that set in, or something like once used, it cannot be used by anyone else until the end of the day. Much better than making it another useless item for no reason eh?
CrimsonDeath 03-13-08, 05:26 PM	(Never mind...)
Sunic_Flames 03-13-08, 05:28 PM	(Never mind...) I'm going to take a wild guess and say this was meant to either meant to be a link to that why clerics don't need to be healbots thread, or more support for the healing belt.
runestar 03-13-08, 07:48 PM	If your wand is healing 15, you did something wrong. 11. But it costs 5 times less. If they start trying to cheese it out... um... "You must wear it for 24 hours before you can use it." Done. Just curious - I wonder just how many of you people here consider the use of multiple healing belts as cheese, or does the ability to swap them out after use seem like the most logical thing to do? I have been wrestling with this conundrum for quite some time now, and would like to hear your opinions on this.:)
Anguish2 03-13-08, 09:15 PM	You know, this item is priced and designed right where it should be. I've got wonder if your DM would disallow a one-level dip into PHB2's Dragon Shaman, where you get a nice aura that gives Fast Healing 1 to the party, up to 1/2 hitpoints. Great out-of-combat healing for a reasonably small investment. Let me tell you about a party I'm playing, two sessions ago. Human barb2 (rolled max hp at 2nd) 30hp Human psion2 (rolled max hp at 2nd, has Psionic Body etc) 18hp Human crusader1/druid1 (rolled max at 2nd) 20hp Human scout2 (I don't know stats) We're playing Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords. Went into a nasty fight, flushed the party to 2hp, 0hp, negatives but stable, and 1 hp. We ate a large portion of a partial wand of cure light wounds we'd bought just that day. Then the reinforcements showed up. Again we very nearly got slaughtered. We ate the remainder of the partial wand. 32 charges, plus the druid's two cure light wounds spells, plus several crusader's strike maneuvers. All told, in two combats, the party burned through 200 hitpoints of healing in what amounted to two back-to-back encounters. So now what? Show up at the temple six hours after buying a 34-charge wand telling the priest that was kind enough to cut us a deal that we need another one?!? Lame. Unheroic. Worse... we're broke. We didn't recover treasure to cover our losses. Yay. Well, someone we'd previously rescued gifted us a healing belt last session. I can't tell you how thrilled I am. 6d8 a day is going to really help us to be semi-self-sufficient, until we can reasonably afford six-packs of wands of lesser vigor. Your DM should clue in that it's no fun sitting around town for a week, waiting for natural healing, while the bad guys are out there, laughing.
CrimsonDeath 03-13-08, 09:20 PM	I'm going to take a wild guess and say this was meant to either meant to be a link to that why clerics don't need to be healbots thread, or more support for the healing belt. No, I suggested that he get the Druid in the party to provide the prerequisite spell instead of finding a Cleric to do it. But then I noticed that the spell they need is Cure Moderate Wounds, which Druids don't get until level 5.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-14-08, 06:38 AM	Braithwaite wrote: > The real difference between the Healing belt and the CLW wand is that the > belt lets the non-healers get some healing in. As such, it would be better > compared with the cost of a large number of cure light or moderate wounds > potions. Wrong. In a typical game, PCs don't commonly use those except for the one or two that are kept around for the eventual oh-no-the-cleric-is-down moment. Aside from that, the only commonly used healing item is the Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Faith Healing/Lesser Vigor. The MIC says directly that you compare prices to things that PCs commonly use - in this case the wands, and definitely not the potions. Looking outside of healing items it's the same thing - at 750 GP the choice of a healing belt *or* the +1 cloak, bracer, etc that you could be getting for only a bit more money is actually one you need to think about. Sending the belt price skyrocketing "because healing potions are more expensive!" turns that into a non-competition - the cloak, bracer, etc will be taken over the belt every time, and that's precisely what the MIC is trying to get away from.
Braithwaite 03-14-08, 06:59 AM	Braithwaite wrote: Wrong. In a typical game, PCs don't commonly use those except for the one or two that are kept around for the eventual oh-no-the-cleric-is-down moment. Aside from that, the only commonly used healing item is the Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Faith Healing/Lesser Vigor. I see parties use healing potions all the time. I beg my party members not to, but they do anyway. It isn't optimized or cost-efficient, but...... The MIC says directly that you compare prices to things that PCs commonly use - in this case the wands, and definitely not the potions. Looking outside of healing items it's the same thing - at 750 GP the choice of a healing belt *or* the +1 cloak, bracer, etc that you could be getting for only a bit more money is actually one you need to think about. Sending the belt price skyrocketing "because healing potions are more expensive!" turns that into a non-competition - the cloak, bracer, etc will be taken over the belt every time, and that's precisely what the MIC is trying to get away from. I have seen players take a dip into a class SOLELY for the benefit of using healing wands. There is value in spreading emergency healing throughout the party, and it extends beyond "what to do when the cleric is down" There are many times when a badly injured character wants a quick HP + before charging back into the melee, and the fact that a fighter can use a healing belt and not a wand makes it vastly more useful. I know that combat healing isn't optimized for a role, but some people really get carried away with that fact. There are circumstances where being able to heal yourself 10-15 hp quickly can really help, and they aren't that rare in my opinion.
runestar 03-14-08, 07:54 AM	That belt of healing is also hogging the waist slot, which fighters need for their belt of str. As such, I don't really see fighters continuing to wear belts of healing past mid lv, seems like the opportunity cost is simply too high. This means they will not likely be using them to heal during combat. So I guess it is still justified to compare them to a wand of CLW, rather than a cure serious wounds potion.
Braithwaite 03-14-08, 08:56 AM	That belt of healing is also hogging the waist slot, which fighters need for their belt of str. As such, I don't really see fighters continuing to wear belts of healing past mid lv, seems like the opportunity cost is simply too high. This means they will not likely be using them to heal during combat. So I guess it is still justified to compare them to a wand of CLW, rather than a cure serious wounds potion. The same book which contains the healing belt (MIC) has the rules for stacking a + stat (like strength on a belt) with other items. The healing belt is so cheap it is only an extra few hundred gold to make the 2 as one item.
Sunic_Flames 03-14-08, 11:20 AM	Getting a Healing Belt with +6 strength costs no more than getting a Healing Belt and a +6 strength belt separately as per the MIC rules. The extra cost rules are for stuff like... a Healing Belt + Belt of Battle. :P Which would be a valid counterpoint, as Belts of Battle are simply awesome. So is strength, but the healing belt is likely to be outclassed at this point. On the other paw, you probably have access to Heal by now, which helps a lot.
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-08, 03:03 AM	Well, I don't find the Healing Belt unbalanced at all. My party uses them, in fact they are practically standard equipment! That's usually the sign it's too good-when everyone uses them.:eek:
CrimsonDeath 03-15-08, 03:37 AM	That's usually the sign it's too good-when everyone uses them.:eek: I guess armor should be banned too, then?
Sunic_Flames 03-15-08, 12:18 PM	I guess armor should be banned too, then? :cookie: Standard issue =/= too good.
nightwyrm 03-15-08, 02:19 PM	Everyone wears clothes too. Clothing is overpowered!! :D
Sunic_Flames 03-15-08, 02:49 PM	Everyone wears clothes too. Clothing is overpowered!! :D OMG NAKEDNESS! :D Oh and food and drink! Can't forget those!
changing-winds11 03-16-08, 04:22 PM	OMG NAKEDNESS! :D Oh and food and drink! Can't forget those! Agreed! Quick Wizards, release the errata nerfing trail rations! But, I have to add... 2D8?! I don't know why, but I've been using it as though it were 2D6! Ugh..
Necroramo 03-16-08, 05:49 PM	Everyone wears clothes too. Clothing is overpowered!! :D o rly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html)
Neutronium_Dragon 03-16-08, 06:05 PM	> That's usually the sign it's too good-when everyone uses them. By the philosophy of the MIC, if everyone uses something, it's priced correctly. Putting an end to the problem of most items being overpriced into nonuse according to the DMG way of looking at things was the whole point of the book.
Half_Dragon_Infernal 03-16-08, 06:07 PM	WEAPONS ARE OVERPOWERED! MAGIC ITEMS ARE OVERPOWERED! MAGIC IS OVERPOWERED! LIFE IS OVERPOWERED!
CrimsonDeath 03-16-08, 08:16 PM	LIFE IS OVERPOWERED! There are some Necropolitans who'd disagree with that.
Half_Dragon_Infernal 03-16-08, 08:35 PM	Fine. OOOH! I HAVE AN IDEA! How much would it cost to make something cursed so it is the only piece of clothing you can wear?