Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voran 10-18-07, 05:52 AM	More musing as I ponder the build of my Paladin/Dragon Shaman which led me to another aspect I find myself stuck considering: Heavy armor, or no? I find that none of my characters over the past 10 years or so, have been the full plate type of person. Back in the day, of 1st and 2nd edition, sure I made things like Cavaliers or Fighters that wore heavy plate, but for some reason, as I've gotten older in my gaming, and perhaps more influenced by games like Shadowrun, where the equivalent of Heavy Armor is security grade armor, which Runners tend not to wear as its...well...obvious, and other games, that my characters tend to go for different armoring attempts. I find a nice medium rated Breastplate armor fits my needs for any melee warrior types I end up making. Maybe I've got memories of Parn or Ashram from Lodoss war or something. Anyway, I was just curious on what reasons people decide to outfit their chars with heavy armor such as full plate. Sure, mechanically it gives you a +3 or so armor bonus more than medium grade armor, but do things like the "Man, I can just imagine that walking around: Clank clank clank" come into your consideration?
Fatalis_902 10-18-07, 06:29 AM	I assume most people try not to think about it. From a RL angle, it would be physically impossible (for all intents and purposes) to walk around with full plate on all day. Heck, it was impossible to mount a horse or put it on by oneself, back when it was used. That's why I prefer either light armor or mithral medium armor. Minimal speed reductions, thank you.
FrostWolf 10-18-07, 07:20 AM	Medium if fine for exploration, but when youmknow that there is going to be a large scale battle orr your going straight after that one BBEG, that is when you go to heavy armors.
draco1119 10-18-07, 07:34 AM	I have a Dwarf in +5 Mithril Full Plate. I also have a Half-Dragon Pally in +5 Full Plate. Honestly, when you're walking around like an earth-bound battleship, does it really matter whether people can hear you?
FrostWolf 10-18-07, 07:40 AM	Swap that Full plate in for Mechanous Gear. (Planar Handbook) +10 to AC with out upgrades.
Phrennzy 10-18-07, 10:10 AM	Imagine the armor as being constructed differently than its Real Life equivalent, due to various construction upgrades: Blacksmith has a cantrip enchanted hammer for more easily working metal Dwarven improvements over centuries of time Naturally occuring 'impurities' in the metal actually strengthen and lighten the metal
trapspringer 10-18-07, 10:36 AM	That's my usual take. Kinda' like in that "movie" "A Knight's Tale." That chick makes that guy that armor... and it's all like "I are t3h Nike are-more!" Good grief that movie sucked. But that's basically my take on D&D plate. Very advanced for the time thanks to innovation and inconsistencies between that world and our own too unimportant to really discuss.
Cifer 10-18-07, 10:36 AM	I assume most people try not to think about it. From a RL angle, it would be physically impossible (for all intents and purposes) to walk around with full plate on all day. Heck, it was impossible to mount a horse or put it on by oneself, back when it was used. On the contrary: It is quite possible to somersault in them thingies. If you're more concerned with realism than balance, I'd advise using the Mithral Full Plate stats for a normal full plate. Let's just say there's a reason why the NASA, when looking for inspiration for somewhat agile space suits, conducted extensive studies of full plate armors. You don't get to charge 1500 gp for welding some metal sheets together. Those "can't mount a horse" thingies were specific tournament armors which were most certainly not worn during war - and "can't put it on yourself" applies to a lot of armors, but if you can afford armor, you can also afford someone who dresses you. Ahem. Back to topic: Yes, I'm a great fan of heavy armors - there are some days when I enjoy playing a mobile guy, but on others, I just love imagining the bulk of a decent armor combined with either a heavy shield or an equally heavy twohanded weapon...
solbergb 10-18-07, 10:51 AM	Heavy armor is the cheap way to very good AC, especially in lower levels. It comes at a cost of mobility, unless you are mounted. Medium armor is usually a bad idea, because it hurts your mobility without doing much in the way of improving armor beyond what a chain shirt will do.
CCS 10-18-07, 12:38 PM	For me, what armour my characters wear really depends upon their type (and often their personalities). Game mechanics, other than maybe cost, are the most distant consideration involved.
Sunic_Flames 10-18-07, 12:49 PM	Mithril chain shirts are pretty solid all around, with possible upgrading to Mithril breastplate. I've never really had much use for heavy armor as there's generally better ways of getting your AC up that don't involve hampering your likely already disadvantaged mobility.
Salla 10-18-07, 01:22 PM	Typically, if I have heavy armor proficiency, I use it. Also typically, if I have heavy armor proficiency, I tank DEX to 12 at tops, so the +1 max dex on Plate just happens to coincide with my +1 DEX bonus. :)
StevenO 10-18-07, 02:23 PM	There aren't too many Dwarf concept I'd use that don't wear heavy armor. With game mechanics it is easily the most cost effective way of getting a higher AC assuming you have a lower Dex score at the cost of mobility vs light armors. Here are the things to look at when determining what type of armor to wear: 1. What am I proficient in? 2. What is my Dex? In general if the Dex Mod = Max Dex most armors provide the same (+8 AC) protection as a base. 3. What skills do I use/how much will ACP affect me? 4. How much will the speed reduction hurt me? If the answers are 1. Heavy; 2. <14; 3. Little; 4. Not too much; then I'd most likely be using heavy armor.
Fatalis_902 10-18-07, 06:17 PM	On the contrary: It is quite possible to somersault in them thingies. If you're more concerned with realism than balance, I'd advise using the Mithral Full Plate stats for a normal full plate. Let's just say there's a reason why the NASA, when looking for inspiration for somewhat agile space suits, conducted extensive studies of full plate armors. You don't get to charge 1500 gp for welding some metal sheets together. Those "can't mount a horse" thingies were specific tournament armors which were most certainly not worn during war - and "can't put it on yourself" applies to a lot of armors, but if you can afford armor, you can also afford someone who dresses you. Define somersault. Sure, you can fall, and if you had enough momentum, likely roll, but good luck getting back up. Yes, the armor allowed movement, it would be pretty ****y armor if it didn't, but it did not allow much movement. And the old saying, "Help, help, I've fallen and can't get up?" Full plate coated knights, friend. They had to have people to dress them, and from there, they were dressed from the bottom up. Hauberk; fine, Breastplate; still fine, Backplate; heavier, but still fine, Pauldrons; losing my balance, etc., until, finally, the knight actually topples and can't lift himself. The armour on their legs and lower parts grounded them against the weight of the armour on their upper halves. They couldn't pull themselves plus over 100 lbs. of metal onto a horse, and had to be hoisted. Plate armor was nice as a proective suit, but it didn't allow much movement. Mail, however, was much lighter, provided plenty of protection, at least against blades and arrows (didn't do squat versus maces, but what do you expect?), and you could put on a breastplate over it, and with that you could still mount a horse and fight. But not in full plate. It was just too heavy.
Holy_Beholder 10-18-07, 07:03 PM	Full plate isn't as heavy as you seem to think it is, but it did take extensive training to use, and there was a reason most people in full plate had horses. You can do a somersault in full plate, but what really kills you is endurance problems, since you can't run for anywhere near as long. You can also get back up if you use the momentum from the roll. From a stand still, it was possible, but difficult, and unlikely to be done at much speed. Mail was also a lot less effective at blocking anything, even with padding underneath, but it did a decent job on swords and arrows, although spears were problematic, and maces pretty much ignored it.
Cifer 10-18-07, 07:21 PM	They couldn't pull themselves plus over 100 lbs. of metal onto a horse Over 100 lbs? Now I don't have the data from the real stuff here, but D&D full plate weighs half of that - which, by the way, is also comparable to the gear a normal modern soldier has to carry (usually a lot less well distributed, actually). Again, you're referring to jousting armor, not the ones actually used in battle.
Fatalis_902 10-18-07, 07:47 PM	Most people in battle didn't have armor to begin with, or if they did, it was light leather stuff. The only ones who had armor were the rich noble knights. And maybe that 100 lbs. bit was a bit high, but the D&D stats for full plate, specifically the weight, are off. It weighs, what 40 lbs., something around there? The real stuff was at least double that.
The_Wild_King 10-18-07, 08:17 PM	I'm taking military history right now, and full plate typically weighed 55lbs
solbergb 10-18-07, 08:31 PM	There were armies that had pretty heavy armor on large numbers of units, and not all were cavalry. Tournament armor is the kind you couldn't get mounted without a crane. I really don't have a problem with folks in D&D operating in fullplate during their entire waking hours given that a 6 strength, 8 constitution grey elf can still march for 8 hours every day with ~50 lb of gear and he doesn't even end up fatigued, although the weight does slow him down. D&D heros are clearly better at long term endurance than most real people. Armies throughout history have had very heavy pack loads for their infantry, which often included armor and even shields that were carried rather than slung. Check out a empire-period Roman soldier. They marched with those huge shields on their arms, in "medium" armor, with a huge backpack full of stuff....just nuts. I can't even imagine doing that. Hiking with a frame backpack, with belly-strap as a teenager - to me 30 lb seemed like a lot. It's amazing what conditioning can do. I think D&D adventurers have more in common with Roman soldiers than modern sedentary gamers.
Voran 10-19-07, 12:25 AM	That's my usual take. Kinda' like in that "movie" "A Knight's Tale." That chick makes that guy that armor... and it's all like "I are t3h Nike are-more!" Good grief that movie sucked. But that's basically my take on D&D plate. Very advanced for the time thanks to innovation and inconsistencies between that world and our own too unimportant to really discuss. Hehe, I remember the joust audience chanting the Queen song, We will rock you. My first thought: How do they know what the hell 'rock' is?
NightHawkFalconis 10-19-07, 12:41 AM	Personally, I'm a fan of mithril chain shirts with masterwork dastana (from the Arms & Equipment Guide)... for 1275, you get the same armor bonus as a [mithril] breastplate (+5), but your max dex is 6 instead of 5, and you have no check penalty. Oh, and it cost 3000 less. :D Combine that with a character with a high dex and some fun feats and other equipment, and you have a very lightweight, very mobile tank whose AC is better than a fighter in full plate (though equal to the figher in mithril full plate. But that also costs more ;D)
Dragonsblood 10-19-07, 02:25 AM	Define somersault. Sure, you can fall, and if you had enough momentum, likely roll, but good luck getting back up. Yes, the armor allowed movement, it would be pretty ****y armor if it didn't, but it did not allow much movement. And the old saying, "Help, help, I've fallen and can't get up?" Full plate coated knights, friend. They had to have people to dress them, and from there, they were dressed from the bottom up. Hauberk; fine, Breastplate; still fine, Backplate; heavier, but still fine, Pauldrons; losing my balance, etc., until, finally, the knight actually topples and can't lift himself. The armour on their legs and lower parts grounded them against the weight of the armour on their upper halves. They couldn't pull themselves plus over 100 lbs. of metal onto a horse, and had to be hoisted. Plate armor was nice as a proective suit, but it didn't allow much movement. Mail, however, was much lighter, provided plenty of protection, at least against blades and arrows (didn't do squat versus maces, but what do you expect?), and you could put on a breastplate over it, and with that you could still mount a horse and fight. But not in full plate. It was just too heavy. DnD full plate is 50 pounds. I haven't worn full plate, but I have done a fair share of hiking with a 70+ lb backpack. I could sprint, jump, climb, you name it, with that thing on. If the weight was distributed evenly on my body and with 20 lbs less, standing, mounting, running, etc would be cake. I can definitely see someone doing gymnastics in full plate with a little practice. Your vision of clumsy full plate wearing buffoon does not seem in line with reality or with DnD's simulation.
Mooncalf 10-19-07, 03:21 AM	I've never played anyone wearing anything heavier than light armor... but then I tend to favor casters and high-dex characters. Never actually played a high-str, high-con low-dex tank. Until your dex modifier reaches +9, full plate is maybe your best choice... if you don't mind the check penalties, loss of speed, cost at early levels. In my eyes, though, you should usually avoid wearing anything that has a lower max dex than your dex mod. Sure, sheer armor protects better when you're flat-footed, but still... On higher levels, my characters usually get high enouch dex that regular armor becomes a hindrance. And then you can choose bracers. Sure, costs a bit, but at those levels...
leo_neil316 10-19-07, 10:19 AM	You know there was this program on the t.v alittle while back. They got four fairly fit guys who could ride horses, and taught them to joust. In full armour, with just a week of training. And this is with the rather large lack of knowledge about training techniques for that sort of stuff we're faced with (not many of the european martial manuals and things survived to the 20th century, and many are writen in forms of code for whatever reason). These guys sat there doing laps, rolling from standing back to their feet, and cartwheels, as part of the 'getting used to the armour' bit. And, while it was still more tireing than doing it without the armour would have been, they could keep up serious stenuous action for extended periods of time fairly easily (except the one guy who lost his balance on a cartwheel and f****d his ankle). Thats the kind of stuff you can just -do-. Now imagine what a guy wearing magicly enhanced armour that could bench press a car out of it (cause hey, str 18 gives you an 'unemcumbered' carry wieght of how high again?) is likely to do. But yeah, if you cen get heavy armour as a class ability, then you'll be able to make good use of it. If you can't then you probally can't....... It's like theirs some sort of neferious plan in the works.... Edit: Real life full plate armour, if well made, could be as light as 45 pounds. Wonder how much all that stuff current day soliders use wieghs in at.
Enmarnacu 10-19-07, 01:24 PM	If my characters could be naked, they would. Only recently have I attempted to play a low-Dex, heavy armor character. It was a pain trying to switch from a naturally high AC and Dex to a slightly higher AC, reduced speed and failed skill checks. Sure, the troll may not hit her, but trying to swim over to fight the troll will be an adventure she might not make it through. It doesn't seem worth it to spend money on something that increases one aspect and ruins others. A low armor bonus, coupled with a high dex, and a few magic items and you're hard to hit, make great reflex saves, have good skill checks, can cast almost normally, so on.
Stormbrand 10-19-07, 01:47 PM	Define somersault. Sure, you can fall, and if you had enough momentum, likely roll, but good luck getting back up. Yes, the armor allowed movement, it would be pretty ****y armor if it didn't, but it did not allow much movement. And the old saying, "Help, help, I've fallen and can't get up?" Full plate coated knights, friend. They had to have people to dress them, and from there, they were dressed from the bottom up. Hauberk; fine, Breastplate; still fine, Backplate; heavier, but still fine, Pauldrons; losing my balance, etc., until, finally, the knight actually topples and can't lift himself. The armour on their legs and lower parts grounded them against the weight of the armour on their upper halves. They couldn't pull themselves plus over 100 lbs. of metal onto a horse, and had to be hoisted. Plate armor was nice as a proective suit, but it didn't allow much movement. Mail, however, was much lighter, provided plenty of protection, at least against blades and arrows (didn't do squat versus maces, but what do you expect?), and you could put on a breastplate over it, and with that you could still mount a horse and fight. But not in full plate. It was just too heavy. Frankly, armour does not topple knights. It just doesn't. If it did there would be no point in them wearing it. Most armoured fighting includes wrestling techniques which work very poorly if you cannot balance. Heavily armoured people were indeed able to fight, hence why knights actually bothered with the stuff.
Cifer 10-19-07, 02:36 PM	If my characters could be naked, they would. Well... why can't they? It doesn't seem worth it to spend money on something that increases one aspect and ruins others. A low armor bonus, coupled with a high dex, and a few magic items and you're hard to hit, make great reflex saves, have good skill checks, can cast almost normally, so on. It's a matter of cost vs. reward, really. In most games, High Dex costs more than a good armor - pointbuy gets increasingly expensive and so do dex-boosting items. The effects of a botched reflex save can usually be mitigated by a high constitution (which is where your points can go instead), casting depends on the class (wizards usually don't wear armor anyway while psions and clerics don't have any problems when encased in metal). Good skill checks entirely depend on whether you actually need that skill: Swimming is somewhat diminished as soon as waterwalking becomes available. So it's all a matter of character - choose the armor most fitting to yours.
Enmarnacu 10-19-07, 03:03 PM	Well... why can't they? It's a matter of cost vs. reward, really. In most games, High Dex costs more than a good armor - pointbuy gets increasingly expensive and so do dex-boosting items. The effects of a botched reflex save can usually be mitigated by a high constitution (which is where your points can go instead), casting depends on the class (wizards usually don't wear armor anyway while psions and clerics don't have any problems when encased in metal). Good skill checks entirely depend on whether you actually need that skill: Swimming is somewhat diminished as soon as waterwalking becomes available. So it's all a matter of character - choose the armor most fitting to yours. Because being naked in a male-run world would seriously impair my diplomacy checks. Or increase them. Hmm, this requires further thought. . . The cost of getting your dex up yields so many rewards. Heavy armor has one reward and many penalties. It's like choosing between an apple or a candy bar. Both will be sweet, but one is going to make you fat. Matter of taste, but also a balance of pros and cons. And my shifter would look awfully funny flying around in gloves and magic jewelry only.
KillerGM 10-19-07, 03:44 PM	I've played both sides of the armor thing, and I like having characters with full plate. There's just something cool about walking around in full plate to me. Sure, it's more cumbersome than other armors, but I usually have a lower Dex with heavier-armored characters. And the lighter-armor types are usually amazed by how high my AC is. Realism isn't part of my D&D. When I can wave my hands and blow up everything in a 30ft radius, I don't concern myself with whether or not "real" armored knights would topple over. It seems the OP just has a preference for non-heavy armor. I hardly ever sneak around with any of my characters - even the ones who wear little or no armor. It's just not how I play. Not that I bash in the door or anything, but sneaking around isn't how I like to explore. Obviously, if the situation calls for it, then I will take off my heavy armor and sneak or whatever. And most of the time, it's not really an issue. I think it's just a difference in opinion. I don't look down on people who decide to wear lighter armors when they could wear full plate, if it's just not their style. Personally, I love the image of my character in heavy armor. I like the idea of clanking around - sometimes comically, sometimes threateningly, sometimes gracefully, depending on the character. And medium armor (judging by AC check penalties) isn't *that* much quieter (2-3 point difference, which isn't much if you have ranks). Hope it helps! :D
leo_neil316 10-19-07, 03:44 PM	The thing is.... wait hang on, examples work better. I am Rob the rogue. Dex is quite possibly the most important skill I will ever have, I -need- those +1's to hit things, stay alive and perform my skill monkey job. I am Marv the Monk, everything that goes for Rob goes for me, except that I don't need the dex to stay alive, but getting bonuses from two stats when I'm not alowed to wear armour, and needing bonuses to hit aswell, means I like my dex +'s. I am William the wizard. Arcane spell failure? Screw that, give me my dex. I am Dave the druid, I'm not alowed to wear it anyway, and if I want armour I just turn into a dragon or something. Boo ya. I am Paul the paladin, I need so many high stats that -not- needing high dex is great, I can cast just fine in the armour, I'm hard to hit, and I get bonuses from cha to my saves anyway. And my skills won't be mainly dex based so I'm sorted. I am Cid the Cleric. Take Paul and Dave, mash 'em together, and you have me. I am Fred the fighter, I love my heavy armour, if I fail a reflex save cause of it... so what? I can normally take the hits, rather that than a full face rend from a troll right? I am Francis, a different fighter who loves his dex and, while I'm not as tough as Fred, I've got other ways to make sure I don't take that rend (like tumble and alchemists fire) plus since I won't have taken the damage from the passed reflex save, I might even survive it if things go wrong.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-19-07, 06:14 PM	http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/xMo1Bh3TGUE2e7Y78Rv.gif
Voran 10-19-07, 06:26 PM	If my characters could be naked, they would. Wooooo! I'm invisible!
Stormbrand 10-19-07, 06:33 PM	All this reference to Reflex saves and such overlooks one issue... From the SRD. This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities. So please, no more mention of failing Reflex saves due to heavy armour.
StevenO 10-19-07, 06:46 PM	The thing is.... wait hang on, examples work better. ... I am Fred the fighter, I love my heavy armour, if I fail a reflex save cause of it... so what? I can normally take the hits, rather that than a full face rend from a troll right? I am Francis, a different fighter who loves his dex and, while I'm not as tough as Fred, I've got other ways to make sure I don't take that rend (like tumble and alchemists fire) plus since I won't have taken the damage from the passed reflex save, I might even survive it if things go wrong. If I had DEX 30 but was wearing normal full plate my combined AC may only be +9 instead of the +10 it would be unarmored but in both cases I'd have +10 to my Reflex Saves, Dex based skills, ranged attacks, and initiative. Looking at Armor+Dex normally the best you can do is +8 with padded (+1/+8) and Full Plate (+8/+1) being the exceptions that grant +9.
KillerGM 10-19-07, 07:03 PM	If I had DEX 30 but was wearing normal full plate my combined AC may only be +9 instead of the +10 it would be unarmored but in both cases I'd have +10 to my Reflex Saves, Dex based skills, ranged attacks, and initiative. Looking at Armor+Dex normally the best you can do is +8 with padded (+1/+8) and Full Plate (+8/+1) being the exceptions that grant +9. Right. I don't know where people got on about the reflex saves? And that's if you have a +8 Dex mod - tough to get "naturally", and once you start talking about magic items, all arguments on both sides are just inflation and silly. And, if you're not ranged and wear heavy armor, chances are you don't need your Dex for much more than your reflex save and Initiative - which, interestingly, it doesn't matter as much if you're flat-footed because you take less of a hit than someone with a high Dex. Mechanically, it is a sound investment for the right character. Flavor-wise, I like it. Not everyone does. No biggie.
Cifer 10-19-07, 07:26 PM	So please, no more mention of failing Reflex saves due to heavy armour. Of course, having low Maximum Dexterity also means it's pretty much a waste to raise the ability too high (you won't receive one of the main benefits of it), so chances are if you're not going to have a better AC from it, you might as well dump it completely. It somewhat reverses cause and effect here, but the result stays the same.
leo_neil316 10-19-07, 07:30 PM	*whistles and looks sheepish* Sorry, my bad on the reflex thing (no wonder I fail so many :rolleyes: ) Okay so high dex low light armour fighter would.... I dunno.... have an easier time getting dressed or something. Aha, thats it, debonair charismatic high dex/cha light armour fighter has an easier time getting in and out the armour. Useful in those casanova situations :D
Salla 10-19-07, 07:31 PM	Hehe, I remember the joust audience chanting the Queen song, We will rock you. My first thought: How do they know what the hell 'rock' is? It was a mistranslation, they were actually saying 'We will stone you'. :)
Salla 10-19-07, 07:33 PM	Of course, having low Maximum Dexterity also means it's pretty much a waste to raise the ability too high (you won't receive one of the main benefits of it), so chances are if you're not going to have a better AC from it, you might as well dump it completely. It somewhat reverses cause and effect here, but the result stays the same. Typically, if you have heavy armor proficiency, you're going to have plenty of hit points because you're a frontliner (cleric, fighter, paladin, etc), and since things that force Reflex saves only inflict damage (as opposed to nasty stuff like conditions or mind control), a good Reflex save is a low priority.
Aryxbez 10-19-07, 11:21 PM	I guess you have to find a way to make the armor look cool in ones thoughts. Such as usually I don't picture my characters, or NPC's for that matter (except select few), wearing helmets, although it is required among the armor piece, I typically ignore it. Also I dislike how Heavy armor is required among warrior types, especially to have a good AC. Another thing I dislike is those pesky Rings and Amulets of Natural armor/protection. I dislike them because I don't like how they are practically required for AC, and since when did heroes rely on forcefields and skin of iron? Especially when every cut and issue warrior type has them.
Necroramo 10-20-07, 12:38 AM	Easy + 8 bonus to boot in exchange for what probably won't be as detrimental penalties. then you enchant it and life gets even better Medium armor is a great way to hardly do better than light armor and get a load of penalties for it @ Stormbrand: To be fair, the people in the fullplate probably have a poor Reflex by save by virtue of their having little need to raise their Dexterity above 12. Or you could just wear platinum dragon mail and be done with it
Stormbrand 10-20-07, 07:23 AM	@ Stormbrand: To be fair, the people in the fullplate probably have a poor Reflex by save by virtue of their having little need to raise their Dexterity above 12. Then the failed Reflex saves are due to character build not armour. Ability scores are also a relatively minor component in saving throws - Base saves from class, resistance bonus, feats, racial abilities - having a moderate DEX is not truly crippling if you want to boost up your saves.
Salla 10-20-07, 04:37 PM	Another thing I dislike is those pesky Rings and Amulets of Natural armor/protection. I dislike them because I don't like how they are practically required for AC, and since when did heroes rely on forcefields and skin of iron? Especially when every cut and issue warrior type has them. Because they're D&D characters, not people from books and movies. Different media, different rules.
Mercurius 10-20-07, 06:44 PM	Honestly, there are only two armours in the game worth wearing for anyone above third level - mithril chain shirts and full plate (material is up to you, but most will cost you an arm and a leg more than they're worth, unless you finally have enough for adamantine). Medium armour is a joke. The best medium armour can do is net you a +1 more than the chainshirt, and it'll slow you down. If you go to the trouble of making a breastplate mithril, you could easily have afforded a +1 Mithril Chainshirt, which has no armour check penalty, only a 10% ASF (Twilight or one level of spellsword negates this completely), and a higher max dex bonus. And you can start putting fancy special abilities on it if you want to boot. Medium armour is for suckers or people who are hung up on perceived "appearance." Personally, I'm more inclined to just assume that my armour looks like what I want it to look like (within reason) and get the mechanically best choice for my character. As for preference, I tend to prefer light, finesse fighters, so mithril chain shirts are my default, but I have been known to wear full plate depending on the character (my current cleric/crusader does, for example).
wizarddog 10-21-07, 05:50 PM	I guess I shy away from heavy armor (at least at low level) for one reason-falling into water. Armor penatlies also can be a pain if your trying to climb, balance, hide, sneak, etc. And in the last game I was PC in we never found enough money or somewhere to buy and upgrade in armor past what we bought at 1st level. :weep:
AtsuiShoto 10-21-07, 06:47 PM	Races of Stone provides a few good reasons to wear heavy armor. Most are fun feats. Invest/energize armor? Nice.
Tavenknaughtlin 10-22-07, 07:17 AM	Level 9 Lizardfolk Fighter specializing in heavy armor. Normal AC of 40. 'Nuff said. (Of course I have a touch AC of 13 :eek: , and I had to sacrifice a few offensive feats, but I feel it's worth it to be a Juggernaut)
Mock26 10-22-07, 01:57 PM	They couldn't pull themselves plus over 100 lbs. of metal onto a horse, and had to be hoisted. That was only true towards the end of the era when full platemail was being used. For most of the time that platemail was being used a knight could dress himself (it was just easier to have someone help him, much like a woman putting on a corset) and could easily mount a horse. You have to remember that knights were trained in the use of their armor and were used to it. They also had the muscle development that went along with training in that armor. If you were to put a suit of full plate on most people who had never worn it before they probably wouldn't be able to stand up if they fell down and wouldn't be able to mount a horse. But similar analogies can be used when talking just about anything that requires specialized training.
Mock26 10-22-07, 01:59 PM	You know there was this program on the t.v alittle while back. They got four fairly fit guys who could ride horses, and taught them to joust. In full armour, with just a week of training. And this is with the rather large lack of knowledge about training techniques for that sort of stuff we're faced with (not many of the european martial manuals and things survived to the 20th century, and many are writen in forms of code for whatever reason). These guys sat there doing laps, rolling from standing back to their feet, and cartwheels, as part of the 'getting used to the armour' bit. And, while it was still more tireing than doing it without the armour would have been, they could keep up serious stenuous action for extended periods of time fairly easily (except the one guy who lost his balance on a cartwheel and f****d his ankle). Thats the kind of stuff you can just -do-. Now imagine what a guy wearing magicly enhanced armour that could bench press a car out of it (cause hey, str 18 gives you an 'unemcumbered' carry wieght of how high again?) is likely to do. But yeah, if you cen get heavy armour as a class ability, then you'll be able to make good use of it. If you can't then you probally can't....... It's like theirs some sort of neferious plan in the works.... Edit: Real life full plate armour, if well made, could be as light as 45 pounds. Wonder how much all that stuff current day soliders use wieghs in at.What program? What channel was it on? When did it air?
archerpwr 10-22-07, 02:20 PM	What program? What channel was it on? When did it air? 9/10 chance says the history channel. Lots of good stuff on there.
Jhulae 10-22-07, 11:24 PM	If my characters could be naked, they would. Done that for characters it made sense for, such as just a short kalasiris for my Mulhorandi sorcerer (think of it as a white linen kilt) or a just loincloth for my rogue/barbarian from Chult. Then again, Heavy Armor is for other characters, like the Adamantine plate mail my Cleric of Gond wore or the mithril plate mail my Drow paladin of Moradin wore. It all depends on the concept. But, that's it.. it depends on the concept. Some concepts just don't fit heavy armors.
AffableDoomwalker 10-23-07, 12:07 AM	In response to the title of this thread: Because if it ain't heavy, it's light. Someone already said it here, the extremes are your best bet for 'natural' +9 AC, whether you're wearing Padded Armor with a 26 Dex, or Full Plate with a 12 Dex. Incidentally, its a heck of a lot easier to start out with 12 Dex and save up some cash for that shiny new Platemail. Of course... I could see one hell of a mean Rogue/Assassin dagger-type running around in Padded Armor. Its all a matter of taste I guess.
Black Kitten 10-23-07, 04:04 AM	In my group, they never get the kind of challenges where someone in a big plate, moving slowly over the battlefield is going to be of much use. Especially because I have a tendacy to throw in difficult circumstances in terrain and other features. Wearing a full-plate would just unnescesary slow the character and make him ineffective. As for wearing it all day: I houserule that you can strip a full-plate down to a breast-plate armor and then down to a chainshirt. By default, you are only wearing the chainshirt armor while travelling/adventuring.
Voran 11-09-07, 07:19 PM	Swap that Full plate in for Mechanous Gear. (Planar Handbook) +10 to AC with out upgrades. *Kerzap* Thread Resussication! Hm, Mechanous doesn't really fit my mental image, especially when seeing the artwork for it, but thanks for the Planar Handbook suggestion, as I saw right next to Mech-armor was something that fit my needs: Sectioned Full Plate. Part of the 'issues' I had with 'regular' full plate was how to visually handle the idea of adding gauntlets/boots to a suit that already provides gauntlets/boots, and wouldn't I be messing up the AC somehow if I chucked the default full plate boots for magical boots of awesomeness, and the gauntlets with gauntlets of rofl pwning. Plus helmets :P Sectional lets me get around that a bit.
FrostWolf 11-10-07, 07:46 AM	*Kerzap* Thread Resussication! Hm, Mechanous doesn't really fit my mental image, especially when seeing the artwork for it, but thanks for the Planar Handbook suggestion, as I saw right next to Mech-armor was something that fit my needs: Sectioned Full Plate. Part of the 'issues' I had with 'regular' full plate was how to visually handle the idea of adding gauntlets/boots to a suit that already provides gauntlets/boots, and wouldn't I be messing up the AC somehow if I chucked the default full plate boots for magical boots of awesomeness, and the gauntlets with gauntlets of rofl pwning. Plus helmets :P Sectional lets me get around that a bit. WEEEE! I is helpful!:dancin: :bounce:
Aaror 11-10-07, 09:38 AM	Real life full plate armour, if well made, could be as light as 45 pounds. Wonder how much all that stuff current day soliders use wieghs in at. My battle rattle is 25 lbs for the vest, and 2 more for the helmet. Course, it will stop an AK 47 or M 16 bullet, and fragments from an IED at close range. Plate would do more for keeping my legs and arms attached in an IED attack, but wouldn't stop a bullet. As for armor, I think it is entirely based on character, but the characters that get the bennies from heavy armor (fighters and clerics) that I play are generally warmongers who want heavy armor (my favorite cleric serves Kord). They consider the noise fair warning. As for weight, I also humped packs of 80+ lbs, it is no big if you have a good pack (read one that helps keep weight close to center of gravity). Armor by default is close to center of gravity. The armor that we would call half plate was used for battle, and you could do sumersaults in it. Full plate is supposed to be the stuff they invented to try to stop gunpowder weapons (and crossbows, longbows, etc.). The original purpose of heavy armor was to allow wealthy powerful people to be on a battlefield and survive, and the original knight armor generally protected you from shortbow arrows and slings, and let you go toe to toe with unarmored peasants and kick rear. The pope prohibited crossbows to protect the wealthy. The British used longbowmen to destroy the French knighthood in the 100 years war. Then guns ended the armor era. An interesting point is there was a similar arms race in the italian city states for dueling. To fence you needed the mobility that only chain gave you. So the rapier was invented to pierce chain. Rapier width and chain link sizes dropped by a factor of 2 over the course of 100 years of development. Back to topic. Mobility is a minor issue if not mounted, unless your foes are running, or run past and your casters run away from you, you just wait for them. If you need to move fast, that is what boots of striding and springing are for. I have never been able to run in full plate, so the X3 instead of X4 didn't apply. For a double move action, heavy and medium are identical. Also, I realize that distani are rules legal, but they are still cheese. "I am wearing full plate, destani, and a shield, and all are +3, so I now have an epic AC."
Amon_V 11-10-07, 03:13 PM	Well, the best reasons for Heavy Armor are: You're a Dwarf and you aren't giving up anything by wearing it. You're a rider type and you need not worry about your own Speed. You're a Cleric or Psion, who recognizes that they are a primary target, and slowing themselves down is a small price to pay for being able to survive fights. You need to reduce MAD, and Dex is the stat you're trying to reduce. You're the 4th Edition Aggro Tank, and so the Mogs will die attacking the most useless member of the Party. The Aggro Tank (Also known as the Knight PC class) does exist as a character concept, but I refuse to ever actually implement it. If these don't apply, you either want to go Dex, or you want to ignore AC and focus on things like Miss Chance or DR. AC gets less useful at higher levels, so the choice to drop AC is a fair one.
Sunic_Flames 11-10-07, 03:48 PM	I'd like to add that armor becomes progressively less useful with levels, heavy getting axed first. At higher levels the general best rule is bracers for armor ac + bolstered dex/wis + monk's belt as a starting point.
ObscureInfo 11-11-07, 04:41 AM	That's my usual take. Kinda' like in that "movie" "A Knight's Tale." That chick makes that guy that armor... and it's all like "I are t3h Nike are-more!" Good grief that movie sucked. Kinda random tangent, but I loved that movie-once I knew what it was about. It is not a movie about medieval times. It is using medieval times to show us how obsessed we get with modern day sports. Even that part with the Nike swooshes was tongue in cheek. If you don't know that it is mostly cultural satire, you might think it is just a poorly made knight movie. Just my 2cp.
Kalai_Eljahn 11-11-07, 10:34 AM	I don't play fighter types - I love being able to wear the mithril shirt *between* layers of clothing. :D Rogue/spellcaster types are more my stye, because really, I can't imagine moving in some of that stuff, regardless of how well it's made ... just too hot and heavy and inconvenient. Also, Dexterity's one of my favored abilities. If I were to make a tank type I'd definitely go barbarian rather than heavily armored fighter.