Helm of Opposite Alignment Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Helm of Opposite Alignment Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Admiral
09-17-06, 07:39 PM I know it states that the character does not with to return to their previous alignment, but what about another one. In our game I failed the save when I put the helm on, moving from CN to LG (there was a 50/50 chance of good or evil, which I support). Now I know I do not want to return to CN, but can I go to another alignment, like say NG?
Nizkateth
09-17-06, 07:45 PM I imagine that would be just like any other character undergoing a shift of alignment... except now it would be biased by your new alignment. Much as anyone Lawful Good might change their alignment over time. They're unlikely to go chaotic all of a sudden, but a smaller shift might be possible.
DarkNick
09-17-06, 08:52 PM I would have thought you would change to LN.

Why would your character want to change alignment? Did you want to change it from CN?

Seeing as it is a cursed item there probably should not be an easy way out of it (such as just deciding to change to another alignment, it is kind of loopholish).

Maybe the best you can hope for is for your party to get a magical cure, remove curse will work wouldn't it?
Callista
09-18-06, 01:16 AM People might easily wish to change alignment. If you were chaotic, you'd wish you were more organized, and thus eventually turn lawful. Or you could be an embittered Good person who eventually turns evil... or a neutral person who wishes they were more altruistic...

If you don't like something about yourself, you could easily want to change that thing--including alignment.
Salla
09-18-06, 01:49 AM People (including whoever included that Helm in 3rd) forget that actions dictate alignment, not vice versa.
Derren S.
09-18-06, 11:49 AM Alignment also dictates actions, not in the way "You are X, you have to do Y", but "You are X and thus never dream of doing Z".

And Remove Curse does not work. Short of a wish there is nothing you can do to become CN again.
JadeFox
09-18-06, 02:16 PM Alignment also dictates actions, not in the way "You are X, you have to do Y", but "You are X and thus never dream of doing Z".

And Remove Curse does not work. Short of a wish there is nothing you can do to become CN again.

coudln't his alignment slowly change over time, as dictated by his RP'ing and actions?
trapspringer
09-18-06, 03:11 PM Yea. The significant effects of this cursed item are purely mechanical.

It will stop him from progressing in non-lawful classes, change the way magic effects him, and generally **** up his character. But yea, he can RP his way out of it. Technically his character doesn't want to, but frankly that that item is retarded so who cares?
kinjojones
09-18-06, 03:51 PM I think it's like the improv game where you draw situations out of a hat. You might initially define your character but when the moderator announces the new situation you have to incorporate it. Some people think it's fun to face challenges like that. One minute they're chaotic nuetral then the next they're lawful good and part of the fun is how you, the other characters in the party, and the NPCs react to this developement. From that stand point I don't think you should be allowed to just decide to change back neither do I think that alignment shifting items are meant to mess you up in a strictly mechanical way. Part of roleplaying is actually roleplaying the changes your character goes through

On the other hand, you should still enjoy playing your character and if this is something you don't like and don't enjoy then you should work it out with your DM and maybe things that change alignments shouldn't be included in the games you play.

Really DMs should let their players know before even before the first session if they ever intend to include alignment shifting in their game, and the players should decide then and there if it's something they can accept.
Feriin
09-18-06, 05:17 PM I would have thought you would change to LN.

Why would you have thought it would change only 2 steps in alignment? To me the Exact oposite of CN is either LG or LE.

(there is a huge debate on the DM forums about this right now.)
Derren S.
09-18-06, 05:32 PM coudln't his alignment slowly change over time, as dictated by his RP'ing and actions?

That is possible except going back to CN again. Even going to LN or CG would be rather hard.
OravennasBrother
09-18-06, 05:44 PM The Helm has been around for a long time - far before 3rd edition. It got ported over from a time when voluntary alignemnt shifts cost XP out the wazoo. "Ooh I shifted from CG to NG, now I need twice as much XP to get o the next level."
Now that is removed, BUT a player who Role-plays his character will take such a change in stride; you change the way your character acts. Sure it may be a change in the plans you had (I wanted to be a Chaos Film Mogul making really cheesy Bruce Cambell Films and NOW I must be a Lawful Manufacturing Tycoon making Railroads and Ships; oh the humanity:P ) but that is one of the difficulties you face in a life of adventure. Note that this is almost, but note quite, like a death of personality, so you MIGHT decide to completely change your character. Since the DM did it to you, make you character a Strict LG paladin wannabe (without actually taking the Paladin class). This serves two purposes - you can claim you are RPing properly AND the DM may decide to use ANOTHER helm to reverse the effects of the first with no cost for your character.
Karma
09-19-06, 02:12 PM To the OP... since I didn't read the thread, The wording in the DMG pretty much states that the character is perfectly happy with his/her new disposition and has no desire to change it. So the only real way to change it would be over time and it would be at the DMs discretion.

You now have to RP Lawful Good... which can be kinda interesting in a lot of situations.
Molitor
09-21-06, 01:11 AM People (including whoever included that Helm in 3rd) forget that actions dictate alignment, not vice versa.
Nice to see someone else that gets it.
Puca
09-21-06, 03:32 PM The Helm of Alignment Change is a powerful cursed item. You can not gradually throw off a powerful magical curse. Even if you could do so, youd need the will, and you dont have the will, due to the effect of the curse.

It is supposed to have a real game impact; you have to radically change the characters behavior to reflect the fact that he has undergone this change.

Most of the time behavior dictates alignment, but this is a case, a curse, where the alignment should result in role playing an appropriate behavior.
DarthCthulu
09-21-06, 11:37 PM I know it states that the character does not with to return to their previous alignment, but what about another one. In our game I failed the save when I put the helm on, moving from CN to LG (there was a 50/50 chance of good or evil, which I support). Now I know I do not want to return to CN, but can I go to another alignment, like say NG?

Why was there a 50/50 chance for good or evil? It should have changed you to LN, the "alignment as different as possible from the former alignment"? You should have gone from free-wheeling hippie to uberfascist, with nary a thought for good or evil, only The Way, The Law, following The Straight and The Narrow.
Amon_WinterfallIV
09-22-06, 05:47 AM Yuck...one very serious way to seize control over something that should really, REALLY be left to the player.

I view the HoOA is a temporary measure at best; I'd modify it to allow a remove curse to remove the alignment, and I'd go one better: The compulsion is temporary; you make a saving throw against the compulsion, every point below the DC, you are forced to remain that alignment.

Why the nerfing?

You see, unless you are an outsider, you were born with a neutral alignment: shaped by your actions, your experiences, and your knowledge, people, and PCs, drift towards an alignment. Think about it this way: you put on a magic helmet, suddenly, you are warped a force which violates the deepest fibre of your being. Everything you are, as a person, is warped by the power of this helmet--completely.

Shifting your alignment is just a matter of two letters on a piece of paper, but HoOA is short of death only as the greatest change a character can recieve. Otherwise, the following scenario is possible:

Monk: I grapple Asmodeus--A 20!
Paladin: Quick Draw the Helm of opposite Alignment and making a touch attack--does 48 hit?
DM: 8(
Asmodeus: Lets have some fun! This big burning pit is ugly, its redecorating time. And all the former lords should get to wear these helms too!
Party :)

That's why this thing needs to be nerfed. Badly. Otherwise, the basic dignity of peoples in the world can be nerfed.

[Want an LG Tarraque, anyone?]
pres_man
09-22-06, 09:51 AM Helm of Opposite Alignment: This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates).

Well considering that Asmodeus has something like a Grapple of 60, a monk being able to grapple him would be impressive, most impressive. And then there his touch AC of what, 25?, and his will save of 31? Really if a party was able to somehow totally beat him down to the point where they could get the helm on him, I think they definitely should get the benefit of it. Now real dieties can't even fail on a 1 for a save, so there is no way to use this object on a real deity (most have will saves well above 15).
trapspringer
09-22-06, 02:07 PM Unless he or she was unconcious.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Admiral 09-17-06, 07:39 PM	I know it states that the character does not with to return to their previous alignment, but what about another one. In our game I failed the save when I put the helm on, moving from CN to LG (there was a 50/50 chance of good or evil, which I support). Now I know I do not want to return to CN, but can I go to another alignment, like say NG?
Nizkateth 09-17-06, 07:45 PM	I imagine that would be just like any other character undergoing a shift of alignment... except now it would be biased by your new alignment. Much as anyone Lawful Good might change their alignment over time. They're unlikely to go chaotic all of a sudden, but a smaller shift might be possible.
DarkNick 09-17-06, 08:52 PM	I would have thought you would change to LN. Why would your character want to change alignment? Did you want to change it from CN? Seeing as it is a cursed item there probably should not be an easy way out of it (such as just deciding to change to another alignment, it is kind of loopholish). Maybe the best you can hope for is for your party to get a magical cure, remove curse will work wouldn't it?
Callista 09-18-06, 01:16 AM	People might easily wish to change alignment. If you were chaotic, you'd wish you were more organized, and thus eventually turn lawful. Or you could be an embittered Good person who eventually turns evil... or a neutral person who wishes they were more altruistic... If you don't like something about yourself, you could easily want to change that thing--including alignment.
Salla 09-18-06, 01:49 AM	People (including whoever included that Helm in 3rd) forget that actions dictate alignment, not vice versa.
Derren S. 09-18-06, 11:49 AM	Alignment also dictates actions, not in the way "You are X, you have to do Y", but "You are X and thus never dream of doing Z". And Remove Curse does not work. Short of a wish there is nothing you can do to become CN again.
JadeFox 09-18-06, 02:16 PM	Alignment also dictates actions, not in the way "You are X, you have to do Y", but "You are X and thus never dream of doing Z". And Remove Curse does not work. Short of a wish there is nothing you can do to become CN again. coudln't his alignment slowly change over time, as dictated by his RP'ing and actions?
trapspringer 09-18-06, 03:11 PM	Yea. The significant effects of this cursed item are purely mechanical. It will stop him from progressing in non-lawful classes, change the way magic effects him, and generally **** up his character. But yea, he can RP his way out of it. Technically his character doesn't want to, but frankly that that item is retarded so who cares?
kinjojones 09-18-06, 03:51 PM	I think it's like the improv game where you draw situations out of a hat. You might initially define your character but when the moderator announces the new situation you have to incorporate it. Some people think it's fun to face challenges like that. One minute they're chaotic nuetral then the next they're lawful good and part of the fun is how you, the other characters in the party, and the NPCs react to this developement. From that stand point I don't think you should be allowed to just decide to change back neither do I think that alignment shifting items are meant to mess you up in a strictly mechanical way. Part of roleplaying is actually roleplaying the changes your character goes through On the other hand, you should still enjoy playing your character and if this is something you don't like and don't enjoy then you should work it out with your DM and maybe things that change alignments shouldn't be included in the games you play. Really DMs should let their players know before even before the first session if they ever intend to include alignment shifting in their game, and the players should decide then and there if it's something they can accept.
Feriin 09-18-06, 05:17 PM	I would have thought you would change to LN. Why would you have thought it would change only 2 steps in alignment? To me the Exact oposite of CN is either LG or LE. (there is a huge debate on the DM forums about this right now.)
Derren S. 09-18-06, 05:32 PM	coudln't his alignment slowly change over time, as dictated by his RP'ing and actions? That is possible except going back to CN again. Even going to LN or CG would be rather hard.
OravennasBrother 09-18-06, 05:44 PM	The Helm has been around for a long time - far before 3rd edition. It got ported over from a time when voluntary alignemnt shifts cost XP out the wazoo. "Ooh I shifted from CG to NG, now I need twice as much XP to get o the next level." Now that is removed, BUT a player who Role-plays his character will take such a change in stride; you change the way your character acts. Sure it may be a change in the plans you had (I wanted to be a Chaos Film Mogul making really cheesy Bruce Cambell Films and NOW I must be a Lawful Manufacturing Tycoon making Railroads and Ships; oh the humanity:P ) but that is one of the difficulties you face in a life of adventure. Note that this is almost, but note quite, like a death of personality, so you MIGHT decide to completely change your character. Since the DM did it to you, make you character a Strict LG paladin wannabe (without actually taking the Paladin class). This serves two purposes - you can claim you are RPing properly AND the DM may decide to use ANOTHER helm to reverse the effects of the first with no cost for your character.
Karma 09-19-06, 02:12 PM	To the OP... since I didn't read the thread, The wording in the DMG pretty much states that the character is perfectly happy with his/her new disposition and has no desire to change it. So the only real way to change it would be over time and it would be at the DMs discretion. You now have to RP Lawful Good... which can be kinda interesting in a lot of situations.
Molitor 09-21-06, 01:11 AM	People (including whoever included that Helm in 3rd) forget that actions dictate alignment, not vice versa. Nice to see someone else that gets it.
Puca 09-21-06, 03:32 PM	The Helm of Alignment Change is a powerful cursed item. You can not gradually throw off a powerful magical curse. Even if you could do so, youd need the will, and you dont have the will, due to the effect of the curse. It is supposed to have a real game impact; you have to radically change the characters behavior to reflect the fact that he has undergone this change. Most of the time behavior dictates alignment, but this is a case, a curse, where the alignment should result in role playing an appropriate behavior.
DarthCthulu 09-21-06, 11:37 PM	I know it states that the character does not with to return to their previous alignment, but what about another one. In our game I failed the save when I put the helm on, moving from CN to LG (there was a 50/50 chance of good or evil, which I support). Now I know I do not want to return to CN, but can I go to another alignment, like say NG? Why was there a 50/50 chance for good or evil? It should have changed you to LN, the "alignment as different as possible from the former alignment"? You should have gone from free-wheeling hippie to uberfascist, with nary a thought for good or evil, only The Way, The Law, following The Straight and The Narrow.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 05:47 AM	Yuck...one very serious way to seize control over something that should really, REALLY be left to the player. I view the HoOA is a temporary measure at best; I'd modify it to allow a remove curse to remove the alignment, and I'd go one better: The compulsion is temporary; you make a saving throw against the compulsion, every point below the DC, you are forced to remain that alignment. Why the nerfing? You see, unless you are an outsider, you were born with a neutral alignment: shaped by your actions, your experiences, and your knowledge, people, and PCs, drift towards an alignment. Think about it this way: you put on a magic helmet, suddenly, you are warped a force which violates the deepest fibre of your being. Everything you are, as a person, is warped by the power of this helmet--completely. Shifting your alignment is just a matter of two letters on a piece of paper, but HoOA is short of death only as the greatest change a character can recieve. Otherwise, the following scenario is possible: Monk: I grapple Asmodeus--A 20! Paladin: Quick Draw the Helm of opposite Alignment and making a touch attack--does 48 hit? DM: 8( Asmodeus: Lets have some fun! This big burning pit is ugly, its redecorating time. And all the former lords should get to wear these helms too! Party :) That's why this thing needs to be nerfed. Badly. Otherwise, the basic dignity of peoples in the world can be nerfed. [Want an LG Tarraque, anyone?]
pres_man 09-22-06, 09:51 AM	Helm of Opposite Alignment: This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). Well considering that Asmodeus has something like a Grapple of 60, a monk being able to grapple him would be impressive, most impressive. And then there his touch AC of what, 25?, and his will save of 31? Really if a party was able to somehow totally beat him down to the point where they could get the helm on him, I think they definitely should get the benefit of it. Now real dieties can't even fail on a 1 for a save, so there is no way to use this object on a real deity (most have will saves well above 15).
trapspringer 09-22-06, 02:07 PM	Unless he or she was unconcious.