Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stike 02-01-04, 07:50 PM	Here's the scoop Campaign: 2 opposing armies are in a heated war. Players are to choose a side and fight along with them. (much more complex but that is irrelevant) Players: (all between lv 1-2 as we just started) Orc- Fighter Human- Paladin Human- Druid Human- Ranger Half-elf- Sorcerer (and me)Human- Rogue My stats: 15 str 15 dex 13 con 13 wis 11 int 14 chr I'm currently level 2 with 12Hp, soon to be level 3. I have been elected leader of the party (due to my keen intellect :rolleyes: ) and have chosen the feats Alertness and Dodge. I am wearing a Chain Shirt which puts my AC to 16, but adds a -2 armor check penalty to numerous skills. I have proven to be the weakest in combat so far but have managed to do well from sheer luck *IE: Critical Hits* Well my luck is drawing to an end and I need some combat advice. I'm relatively new to the game and so far only have my Tumble Skill at 5, meaning I won't be rolling past enemies for a flank any time soon. If anyone could give me ideas for battle strategies, feats, skills, equipment and any other helpful hints that I could use, I would be very grateful. *Note: Although the GM does allow the odd magical item to come across us and has the "Song and Silence" book, he prefers to use the standard equipment sold in most shops out of the Player's Handbook. **NOTE: My party is showing less and less respect due to my poor battle skills. Which is understandable, as a leader who proves unable to fight isn't much inspiration. Thank you, -Stike
±Ðiaߣo_ßastee£e± 02-01-04, 08:20 PM	well for a rogue hiding is always your best weapon(btw what weapon are you using?). and bluff is nice. if you combine the 2 together you get a nice combo they turn to look away then you get to hide the come in for a nice SA.
±Ðiaߣo_ßastee£e± 02-01-04, 08:21 PM	Also depending on how much money you have and how many units are in this war, you could always use the Phalanx tactic. (towersheilds for the front line.) then mabye have some archers in the back?
quaiven 02-01-04, 08:31 PM	Hold on... Let me get this straight... Your a rogue, but you have an 11 Int, and a 15 Str? Tell me that's a typo. Are you sure those aren't the Paladin's stats.
Ehlana 02-01-04, 09:30 PM	Well, if it were up to me I'd grab two levels of fighter(or at least one, and then the second later on). This will get you a couple of extra feats, and more hp. It may also gain you a bit of attack bonus depending on character level. It'll also allow you to use a shield, which can help out your ac. Now I dunno if your ac is the problem or you're just plain having trouble hitting things. The important thing as a rogue or mostly rogue combatant is to try and avoid going toe to toe with the enemy if at all possible. You need to roll with the battle and make good use of your companions, using them to set yourself up for flanking and sneak attack. Along the lines of sneak attack, grabbing improved init to get in the first strike(and thus catching the enemy flat footed and being able to do sneak attack damage) is good. Two weapon fighting is also an option. In 3.5 it only requires one feat which makes it a good deal for characters that have sneak attack dice. You could also go the archer route if you prefer. I might have assigned your stats a bit differently, since 13 int would qualify you for expertise(another boost to ac) and the related feats(improved trip, disarm). But there's not much that you can do with that.
Stike 02-01-04, 10:43 PM	Well as for the stats, yes I was a little stubborn in picking a rogue after those rolls but I love em...despite their inability to suceed. Our GM tends to drag out multi-classing, usually saying I need to apprentice under a fighter for a level or 2 before I can multi-class into one. Money isn't an issue, although we seem to be a melee based party so the Tower Shield idea may not go so well. Currently I have a Long Sword (GM allowed Long Swords as a starting proficieny for rogue) and am borrowing the Rangers Masterwork Longsword. Since Rogues are only proficient in Shortbows initially, I don't really want to Sacrifice 1 attack (Masterwork) and 2 damage (1d6 vs 1d8). Now I may seem well off with 4 to my Melee and 1d8+2(with Strength) to hit...but our GM has been basing our opponents off of the abilities of the other party members, who are dominating so far. What I would love in your suggestions, is a strategy to flank someone. I'm not 100% on the rules so I don't know how to use them to my advantage. To get behind someone it usually takes a tumble (Which I am unable to do well) or two turns to walk around them from what I know. Please continue helping and thanks for what's been said so far. (PS. I am using a chain shirt [+4 ac, -2 check penalty] Should I swap it for Leather and go without the extra AC?)
Blind_Wolf 02-01-04, 11:04 PM	Well, if it was I, I would change the armor, but this depends on what kind of rogue you are. To flank, you get a friend, and one of you stay in one side of him, and the other on the other side, like this: X O X (while X is you/your friend) Just try to move like this and its great, if he tries to get out of the flank maybe you can get an attack of opportunity (maybe). If he do not make the 5 ft step adjust, or only move in that round, he most get an AoO from you. And next you and your friend move again to flank him again. And remember that you can use sneak attack while flanking. That's my opnion.
Ehlana 02-01-04, 11:07 PM	If money's not a problem, get a mithril chain shirt asap. no armour check penalty. If you wanna use a shield and can't get a fighter level or two, get a darkwood or mithril large shield. No armour check penalty there either so no penalties for non proficiency. As to flanking strategies, tumbling's what I do. As a 2nd level rogue you can have 5 ranks in tumble, +2 dex, -2 ac. You can also get 5 ranks in jump, which works synergistically with tumble(the 5 ranks in jump gives you a +2 to tumble and the 5 ranks in tumble give you a +2 bonus to jump checks). Another thing you can do is grab the mobility feat. Then even if you fizzle your tumble check, the +4 ac bonus that mobility grants you for drawing aoo's via movement kicks in and I doubt too many low level monsters are gonna have a good shot at hitting your 20 ac. Looking ahead to third level you could have(with a mithril shirt and large darkwood shield) a base ac of 18, and a +10 to your tumble check with an ac of 22 if you fail the tumble check(if you take the mobility feat).
Gandilas 02-01-04, 11:54 PM	Hello. First off, get a set of MW Studded Leather instead of the Chain Shirt. When you level to 3rd, I'd suggest: Featwise - either TWF or Weapon Focus - Shortsword and swap the MW Longsword out for a MW Short Sword. Humbly ask the DM if you could switch out the Alertness feat for TWF. Then ask if you could switch your Int for one of your other stats....bring pizza. Itemwise: With all those odd stats, anything that gives you a +1 to a stat is going to help. Any magic item that gives +2 to a stat MIGHT be available in just a +1 version, ask the DM if you can spend 1K (If you have it) on Gloves of Dexterity. Buy a war dog, put some good barding on it and have IT set up flanks with you. Get the Druid to summon flankers for you if he's amendable to it. Look for Boots of Striding (forget about the Springing part) that increase your movement rate by 10', cost is 15001. Skillwise: Up Jumping and Balance until you have 5 ranks in each, that should give you a Synergy bonus to Tumbling. Keep putting ranks in Tumbling. At 2nd levels, you SHOULD have 5 ranks of Tumble, 2 more from Dex and 4 more from Jump/Balance, giving you an 11 which is good enough to Tumble through threatened areas. Note: the 5 ranks of Tumble you have ups the AC bonus you get from Fighting Defensively and going Full Defense. Keep up Spot, Search, Trap skills, Open Locks and Bluff. Classwise: Keep up the Rogue levels! You get another Sneak Attack dice at 3rd, that'll help a lot. If you take TWF, you have the potential of hitting twice a round for 1d8+2 (1d6+2 if you drop it to a Short Sword) plus 2d6 on EACH HIT. When you hit 4th, put your stat boost in Dex. That'll up your AC, Refles save and all your Dex skills, including Tumble. Do NOT put it into Strength. If you get Gloves of Dexterity you might want to consider putting it into INT instead.
Bedevere 02-02-04, 04:07 AM	Masterwork studded leather, plus a masterwork buckler (or other light shield, but I prefer bucklers, as the arm is free to make attacks still, albeit at -1) These give you the same armour class, but no armour check penalty. Apart from that, optimise chances for flanking, and keep your eyes open for any exceptional armour, either the aforementioned Mithral chain shirt, a few of the other srmour types, or just good old fashioned magic armour. Are you using the Splat books? If so, I think it was either the clerics or the fighters one that had something called a barricade buckler. Don't think I am allowed to post details on here, from memory, but fairly sure that merely advertising something in them can't hurt. ;) Anyway. This item is probably a big help to you, if you are allowed it, so look it up.
Addi83 02-02-04, 06:27 AM	You are going to want to put 5 ranks into jump eventually, it gives a synergy bonus to tumble. If you forsee dungeon expeditions or breaking into places, you'll need search, disable device and open lock. Things you might also like are balance (not used very often, but when it is used it often decides between life and death), diplomacy and especially bluff. I learned the hard way that a good escape artist skill is often sorely missed if you don't have it. All in all, the rogue is the games official skill-monkey. I'm playing a Rogue7/Assassin5 in a campaign, and I have an intelligence of 20, I still feel like I don't have enough skill points. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack feat route is always popular, and thats because they're good feats to have. Also think about two weapon fighting, improved initiative and check out improved feint, improved sunder and improved disarm. With your abilities, I'd recommend a masterwork chainshirt if you can find one, or just a chainshirt. (the best armor you could find is a mithral breastplate). My Asssassin wields a dagger, but for someone who fights a lot, I think a rapier or shortsword might be more to your liking, better yet, you might want to take one or two levels of fighter, since you mostly do fighting, and get something like a longsword or bastard sword.(I had a very capable fighter/rogue with a katana once)
Joe Khol 02-02-04, 07:09 AM	It sounds to me that you are trying to keep up with the rest of the party in combat which simply isn't going to happen. The Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and (depending on the build) Druid will probably be better melee characters that your Rogue and if you try to match them on their terms (such as wearing a Chain Shirt :-) it won't work. Other people have already given good advice to help you out. I'd suggest get a ranged weapon of some sort - thrown weapons might be an idea with your stats. The feats Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are good choices. Then you can work your way around the combat, firing/throwing into melee as you go. Get into a position where you could move in to a flanking position and you can chose to keep shooting or charge in as necessary. If the party is still showing you less respect because of your combat abilities, let one of them scout ahead or try to disarm the next trap you come across :-)
±Ðiaߣo_ßastee£e± 02-02-04, 11:50 AM	The Barricade buckler is in Song & Silence
AmericanSaint 02-02-04, 12:09 PM	From one rogue to another: For the love of Olidammara stay out of melee! A crossbow is your friend. But we all know that sometimes you have to get up close. But not too close... for times like these: Reach Weapon, Baby! That's right, it may not be the stealthiest weapon around, but you can use a longspear. It may be worth talking someone esle in to taking at least one level of rogue, so the both of you can set up a nice flank while both using reach weapons. Sneak attacks all around! I figure, if there is a war going on, carrying a larger weapon may not be out of line. Definately hang onto that short sword as a back up, but if you want to avoid getting smacked around, reach is your new best friend.
Addi83 02-02-04, 12:26 PM	Originally posted by AmericanSaint From one rogue to another: For the love of Olidammara stay out of melee! A crossbow is your friend. Can't say I agree with that, although ranged attacks are fine, some of the most successful rogues I've played were tumbling blade-wielders with the dodge-mobility-spring attack. It's a lot easier to position yourself for flanking sneak attacks that way, and if you've got nice dex, and a good tumble score, you won't get hit too much to retreat before you die, if worst comes to worst.
Malben 02-02-04, 12:54 PM	Given that you've got good scores in both Str and Dex, Stike, I suggest a ranged weapon -- if you can get your grubby little paws on a mighty composite shortbow [+2 Str], that's ideal -- you deal shortsword damage, but at range. If that's too pricey for you, see about some darts or javelins or something (I'm not sure if rogues get javelin proficiency). They're not as choice as a bow, but you still get your str mod to damage at range. With that said, your next feat needs to be Improved Initiative. Remember -- in the first round, anything with a lower initiative roll than you (provided it isn't another rogue or a barbarian with Uncanny Dodge) is flat-footed, and you get sneak attack damage. Coupled with this, you can feint in combat using the Bluff skill, and you'll get sneak attack pretty much every other round. Since you'll be unable to make more than one attack in a round until level 8 or so anyway (and since even then, the second attack will probably miss), you may as well count yourself ahead on the deal. Going for ranged attack also nets you the benefit of removing the need for you to consider multiple stats as worth increasing. You'd need either to grab a feat (Weapon Finesse) or else increase both Str and Dex. For my money, it's better to grab Improved Init, and increase only Dex. It'll get you better results on the long term, and you're more likely to survive. Besides that, it's a lot easier, when you are scouting, to get close enough for a sneak attack with a ranged weapon than it is to close in for a melee sneak attack.
Stike 02-02-04, 06:51 PM	Suggestions so far have been great and will help a lot. Don't stop though! The more ideas the better. As well, I need more ideas revolving around the stats and situation I already have. I'm sure most people can think of a lot of things they would have done different in character creation but it's too late now. So tips that will help me in the future are greatly appreciated. Thanks
ninjarabbit 02-02-04, 07:28 PM	Use bows, crossbows, and/or daggers (for throwing and melee) and stay out of heavy melee combat, you're not a warrior, don't try to be one. Also dump the chain shirt for leather armor until you can afford a mithril shirt. And try to either stay unseen during combat or jump into melee only when you have a flanking opportunity. Maybe next level you could either take a level of ranger or fighter for martial weapons and use a reach weapon or use a feat for a reach weapon, spiked chain would be my first choice for all of its nifty abilities. And rabbits do rule, especailly ones trained as ninjas.
BenjCano 02-02-04, 07:29 PM	I have to agree with the reach weapon idea. A single level dip into barbarian will net you a +10 bonus to speed, and Martial Weapon Proficiencies so you can pick out any reach weapon you like. You can sneak attack while raging, and the bonus to Strength and Con will help you stay in the battles longer. This is only a temporary fix, I'm afraid, and a sole level of barbarian will be less valuable as time goes on. I'd definately ask for a takeback of my feats, were I you. Not Dodge....the Spring Attack chain is a good one for Rogues, esp. 40 ft. speed rogues with reach weapons, but Alertness is :twitch: If you can substitute Improved Initiative, then grab it up like it was on sale for $2.99. The only way you're going to be able to marginally keep up in combat is if you can lay into your foes with Sneak Attack, and if you can't flank the only thing for you is to catch them flatfooted. You seem disinterested in archery, but don't underestimate the value of Point Blank Shot. It will aid you in those situations where you're able to make ranged sneak attacks.
Phist 02-02-04, 09:35 PM	I'm a rogue too (well one rogue, two fighter. It works really well. Although it's rogue from now on for me) so here's my advice: Want to know what rogues do? Take out the PG and look at a rogue's hit die compared to everyone else. Now look at our skill points. AND THERE YOU HAVE IT! A rogue may hold his own in combat but that is not why you have a rogue in your party. And that's why we were suprised by your intellegece. Having low int is throwing away the advantage of a rogue. I have 17 int. 44 skill points at first level : )
Gandilas 02-02-04, 10:59 PM	Using a ranged item is fine, at the start of combat. After nobody in the combat stops being flatfooted, your ranged attacks are pointless IMO. With a fast initiative, you might get a Standard Attack (if you don't have to move within 30 feet) and a Full Attack sequence, but then its time to ditch the missle weapon.
Malben 02-03-04, 12:03 AM	I have to respectfully disagree with Gandilas. Even after the first round of a battle, you can get benefits from using a ranged weapon as a rogue -- you simply have to use Bluff in combat. Yes, it's sneak attack every other round instead of every round. That's really not such a big deal, though. As Stike has pointed out, his character has an AC of 16. Even assuming that he's using the Dodge feat in melee with a level 2 fighter who's got Str 15, the simple fact that he's only got 12 hp is a serious problem. A common level 1 human fighter will have an attack bonus of +5 (assuming Weapon Focus, BAB +2, and Str 15). Stick him with a greatsword, and this same fighter deals 1d8+2 damage per hit. Assume he's also using scale mail and a heavy shield, and that his Dex is a 13, and there's an AC of 17. Meanwhile Stike's rogue's only got an attack bonus at +3. The odds are that he'll die first in melee, unless the fighter is a fool and doesn't turn on him first. Two good hits on Stike, and it's over for the rogue. At higher levels, melee sneak attacks become even less viable unless you invest in a high Con score. Furthermore, getting sneak attacks with a ranged weapon is -easy- to do. All you have to do is twist the party sorcerer's arm until he learns blink. Then get the sorcerer to cast that on you. You get all the benefits pertaining to someone who is invisible -- including the one that says your foes are caught flat-footed by your attacks. So you can use your ranged attacks from far away, and be secure and comfortable.
Orc Fighter 02-03-04, 04:08 AM	Ranged, my brother, ranged! I'm a Thief 9/Fighter 2 Halfling and I don't get into combat if I don't have to! Not to say i don't have a close up weapon for those times (and they do happen) but I like plucking at them froma distance! Especially if you have enough meat shields to keep them occupied! Just depends on how ya wanna work it. the Mobility/Spring Attack thing might be more your thing. I went ranged just because of the race. Halflings don't have a lot of speed (unless ya magic him up) so i had to keep myself at a distance and work it from there. Ashram Swiftfoot
Stike 02-03-04, 03:26 PM	Another Problem that created the original problem was the DM's way to roll the attributes in character creation. What he does is have 1 roll for each stat, then you can re-roll the lowest stat and swap 2 stat after that. I rolled: 15 str 13 dex 15 con 13 wis 11 int 14 chr I failed to Re-roll my Int higher than before and swapped Dex and Con stats giving me: My stats: 15 str 15 dex 13 con 13 wis 11 int 14 chr Can anyone suggest a better method of attribute rolling that I could convince the DM to use? This method is limiting and forces you to choose class based on luck rather than preference.
ShadowShinobi 02-03-04, 05:41 PM	3 words... poison crossbow bolts. Youre a rouge. Dont get into melee.
Gandilas 02-03-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by Malben Even after the first round of a battle, you can get benefits from using a ranged weapon as a rogue -- you simply have to use Bluff in combat. Yes, it's sneak attack every other round instead of every round. Feinting in combat requires a melee attack, can't use with a Ranged Weapon. Originally posted by Malben Furthermore, getting sneak attacks with a ranged weapon is -easy- to do. All you have to do is twist the party sorcerer's arm until he learns blink. Then get the sorcerer to cast that on you. You get all the benefits pertaining to someone who is invisible -- including the one that says your foes are caught flat-footed by your attacks. So you can use your ranged attacks from far away, and be secure and comfortable. Blink requires a level 5 wizard/6 sorcerer. The range on the spell is Personal as well, so even IF a caster of the required level is available, the rogue can't be the target of the spell.
Malben 02-03-04, 08:47 PM	Yeah, that's what I get for posting early in the morning, on the blink thing. Nevertheless, my point remains -- it's easy for the rogue to get oodles of sneak attacks via collusion with the party's spellcaster or spellcasters. The sorcerer can just as well learn Glitterdust (actually this is arguably the better spell anyway, since it has the extra benefit of countering invisible foes to the benefit of the entire party), use that to blind things, and let the rogue sneak attack them that way. Blindness/Deafness is also useful for this, in case you run into a wizard or sorcerer, or some other foe that has a high Will save that would make it able to resist Glitterdust readily. On the note concerning Bluff, bluffing in combat for a feint may not be possible with ranged weapons (I was also in error there), but a sort of poor man's sniping technique is possible -- you can make your ranged sneak attack, and take any movement you're going to make that round. Next round, you can use Bluff to create a distraction in order to hide, and then use Hide as a move action. This avoids the nasty -20 penalty you'd suffer for sniping, and it basically also works out to one sneak attack every other round, the same as for a Bluff in melee technique. Obviously this doesn't really work without some sort of cover or concealment available to you, but unless your DM makes it a habit to run adventures in locales that are utterly free of furnishings, flora, or projecting architectural features, you can very often get such concealment. At worst, you can pop around a doorway or a corner to get cover that way. Of course, this approach also suggests that you're well served by picking up a few levels of shadowdancer or assassin ASAP, so you don't have to fiddle around with the terrain, but you don't absolutely need to do so.