Help against a Powergaming DM!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help against a Powergaming DM!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eximus
03-30-07, 10:34 PM OK, I'm about to join a campaign that my friend is running. He is a HUGE powergamer. He told us that in order to survive in his world, it will be necessary to either a)Optimize the hell outta our characters, or b)Break the game. And I also just found out, that he has a way to scale any encounter for broken characters, so unfortunately I can't use Pun-Pun. lol. This is only my second campaign ever played, so I'm still kinda new to the game, and am only familiar with the PHB. I have access through my DM to the other books, but only the PHB, MM, and DMG are immediately allowed, every other book has to be approved. So I guess what I'm asking is, what class can I play for the best survivability? I was thinking a spiked chain figher or a duskblade, Any thoughts? Thanks!
Cold Napalm
03-30-07, 10:43 PM druid 20...most broken thing in game besides thought exercises.
Mindolin
03-30-07, 10:45 PM You want advice? Go to the Character Optimization boards, find some fun things there. The Spiked Chain is usually seen as a great weapon, but I've never used it. What level are you starting at? I might be able to help if you let me know that much.
TheAngryFish
03-30-07, 11:01 PM Cleric, Druid, or Psion; I've taken them all to 20 and was unstoppable with each of them. I don't know of any challenge that these classes can't overcome.
Eximus
03-30-07, 11:59 PM Mindolin. I've actually been toying around with the spiked chain idea. We are starting at lvl 4, and I don't think we're going to make it past lvl 10, just because of the sheer difficulty of the campaign. The only bad thing is that I have to get any other book other than the 3 i stated in my first book approved by my DM, which kinda limits what I can do to "break" the game, because he can see it coming.
Goldenmaxter
03-31-07, 12:01 AM A level 20 monk is a true master. Unaffected by all kinds of things, he can just walk around and beat the bajesus out of noobs. Try that out. By the way, Monks aren't the best if you're starting out really low, they get O.K. at lv 3 and Great at lv 6.
Dragonteuthis
03-31-07, 03:16 AM And I also just found out, that he has a way to scale any encounter for broken characters...

Logically, that means you could make a sub-optimal build and he could scale it appropriately.

Is there a reason you couldn't do that?
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-31-07, 03:32 AM i second the druid 20 sujestion. Take spel focus conj, augmented summoning, ashbound summoning, and natural spell. Then invest heavily in the monster manuals. use your animal comapnion and summons to best effect you can. swarm and cast, and have the animal companion fight. make sure that nothing misses an action, and that you have more then what your fighting.

However your most powerful option will not be found in any source material, WOTC or otherwise. the most powerful thing in combat is tactics. Good tactics will win fights. Bad tacics willlose them. there is no single factor that is as important as tactics. your DM may be able to through more power at you, but as long as you can out tactic him, you will win the day. i sujest studying up on them. Sun-Sue's the Art of war is a good place to start. Studying up on med-evil, and modern conflicts is another good thing to do.

The problem with PUn-PUn is that there is no way to scale to scale anything except another pUn-pun to it. It has infanit stats, and every ability in the game. it will never die becuase it has infanit HP, and can never sumcum to ability damage becuase of infanite ability scores. It will never be hit with an attack, nor will it ever fail save. (except for natural 20's and ones.)
Eximus
03-31-07, 10:18 AM If I could get a Druid to 20, I'd be all on that, but as is, I have a strong feeling that the campaign is going to be kinda short. Maybe I can talk him into allowing us to start at lvl 20, so he can have all the baddies he wants, and I can optimize the hell outta my char.
Cold Napalm
03-31-07, 01:30 PM well the druid is good before level 5. Great before level 6...and utter brokenness after level 6. So even between level 4-10, it's a good choice to play.
Magrus
04-01-07, 01:53 AM Personally, I'd play an expert that was going on strike against adventuring in this game just to **** of that kind of DM. See what he does when you optimize someone who starts riots against the rest of the party. That would be oodles of fun for me, and I DM more than half of the games I've been in.

Second option, one that hasn't been covered. Play an Enchanter. You may not be the incredible dragon slayer or what not, but you could end up charming some very important people. Don't worry about being godlike, just throw your DM's world into chaos. Charm a ***** in a city to seduce the lord who runs it. Get her to take everything he owns and bring it back to you. Buy something that goes "boom" and kill the nearest dragon, charm someone to set it off. Take the loot.

He can be a power gamer, you outsmart him with role playing. Eventually, he'll rant at you. You can just smile and say "well, maybe next time we can both tone it down a little and play a normal game?"
Eximus
04-01-07, 10:53 AM Hrmm... The only thing is that we are limited to the Core books, and it's a custom world. What's happening is that we are on a plane that has been ravaged by a war of the elementals. The elementals have created WMD's. Not nukes per se, but something close, like fire that can burn through stone, water so heavy the wind can't blow it etc... Oh and one more thing, ALL the dragons are dead!
Drag0nUL
04-01-07, 04:25 PM Somehow, after I read the first 2 lines of this thread I was sure that most of the suggestions would be along the lines of CoDzilla 20. Well, being a powergamer myself I will have to disappoint you. An experienced optimizer can rip holes through an averagely played Druid 20 even by using a fighter. A build is only as good as the man who plays the character. The OP says this is his second campaign, so there is quite a good chance he hasn't yet mastered all the array of 'dirty tricks' that playing a heavily optimized character requires. So I will have to suggest keeping it simple: a dwarven defender: get the Con modifier as high as possible(+5 base is perfect but +4 will do also) and stack AC boosting items(full plate, tower shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor etc.)
plasword
04-01-07, 08:07 PM No pun intended here, but (they tell me when the word but is used mid-sentence, people ignore the first part) I thought ALL DMs were poer gamers. no offense meant 2 any reading this.
:hides: :incog: :duel: :help: :smirk: :OMG! :dragon:
Eximus
04-01-07, 08:20 PM Lol. I was thinking of using the Spiked Chain fighter, with like a bijillion AoO's. I think I have a pretty decent build planned out so far. He is also letting us have a few a magic items. Any ideas for that? I know we are going to be atleast facing a Fighter/Pally, and a group of a Druid and a Cleric.
Daydreamer
04-01-07, 08:23 PM Put your ideas on the character optimization board.
or look at ideas already there.

This is the sort of game id walk away from however, it sounds like ur being railroaded into something...however if this is what you like full steam ahead i guess.
Eximus
04-01-07, 08:48 PM I wouldn't say railroaded. The DM is my best friend and he was telling me some of his ideas for the game to help me get prepared, because I'm the played with the least amount of experience in the game. I think it's going to be fun because I've always wanted to do something like this, being able to test stuff out since we have a reset button and all. I already know now that I'm going to **** him off :dancin: with some of my ideas. Like using a wand of shrink items to shrink the belt on one of the baddies and cut him in half. He is pretty lenient about some of the rules and rewards creativity, so here's hoping that this will work.
Daydreamer
04-01-07, 09:30 PM ok then ^^ well i guess if you feel youll have fun nothing is wrong with it. I just cant stand powergaming, or games where the dm or pcs have a mechanical focus, but thats me.
Good luck with this stuff, but seriously the best bet for ideas is the optimization board.
Eximus
04-01-07, 09:56 PM Ya it'll be fun. In my first campaign he convinced me, the fighter, to talk our way out of a boss battle. Natural 20s FTW. Our DM was so pi$$ed. He was waiting for the fight, and it was all spoiled by being a pacifist. HAHA. He ended up banning all attempts to talk out way out of story important battles. Who know Air Mephits could be such good conversationalists?
Eximus
04-01-07, 09:59 PM Double Post ><
Tytalus
04-02-07, 02:28 AM Lol. I was thinking of using the Spiked Chain fighter, with like a bijillion AoO's. I think I have a pretty decent build planned out so far. He is also letting us have a few a magic items. Any ideas for that? I know we are going to be atleast facing a Fighter/Pally, and a group of a Druid and a Cleric.

Still the state-of-the-art in tripping builds: Snow's Chain Tripper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005)
Zoycitenega
04-02-07, 03:39 PM Coordinate with the rest of your party. Have one person who is awesome vs. traps, locks, and bluffing(rogue, or ninja if you can get it in), one person who is the meat tank, and a cleric/palidin for healing/diplomacy. Also, have someone who is good at knowledges so that you know about monster's before the first few rounds(fireball vs. formians is generally a bad idea) and make sure you have some quicksilver and such like that.

If you're going vs. elementals, have some scrolls or spells that deal energy of the opposite alignment. You may want to pool half of your starting gold with the party to buy equipment.
FntsyWlkr
04-02-07, 04:36 PM This is the way MY mind works.

If you're worried about powergaming with the DM, I would take a Favored Soul. By design he's the "favored of the gods." Sure you could be a druid 20 or a wizard 20 ...

... but how about 20 levels of being the God's Favorite Person?!?!

I mean geez.
Novabomb
04-02-07, 11:39 PM A level 20 monk is a true master. Unaffected by all kinds of things, he can just walk around and beat the bajesus out of noobs. Try that out. By the way, Monks aren't the best if you're starting out really low, they get O.K. at lv 3 and Great at lv 6.

Uh.....not so much. The lack of combat ability is a significant flaw. Not to mention the MAD.
Magnus029
04-03-07, 11:57 AM No pun intended here, but (they tell me when the word but is used mid-sentence, people ignore the first part) I thought ALL DMs were poer gamers. no offense meant 2 any reading this.
:hides: :incog: :duel: :help: :smirk: :OMG! :dragon:

No offense taken! *******

So what, the DM is a powergaming bastard that wants to show that optimizing is the only way to go... I understand he is your best friend, that said to me this would suck the fun right out the game. Optimize or die, oo how fun. Let me get back to my video game and call me when you are ready to let people have fun.
Eximus
04-03-07, 01:47 PM Not really a disadvantege. I want to see how powerful I can make my char, who wouldn't? I guess he is a firm believer of survival of the fittest. lol
moriarty13
04-03-07, 02:12 PM Hmm, the stuff on the optimization boards probably won't be directly helpful because they usually focus on higher level builds. And usually more books=better.

If you assume starting at 3rd level, that changes things too. A druid might not be bad, because an animal companion can help quite a bit. But I might suggest something that at higher level would sorta suck. But maybe a Half-orc Barbarian. Go for huge strength, dump int, wis, and cha into the toilet (maybe keep wis high for saves). Take Power Attack and a greatsword/axe and just chop away. Maybe plan for Frenzied Berzerker down the road, which is a very strong (though slightly crazy) PrC, but not from the books that are allowed.

With only PHB and DMG, you don't have a lot of room for PrCs (since most of the DMG ones stink). And at 3rd level you probably will want to shy away from a gish build (sorc/fighter etc). Hit Points are good in a game where the DM is trying to kill you. As are saving throws.

Or go for a paladin, ranger or druid and pray for a horse asap, and do a charger build. PA and lance is pretty good if you can stay on horseback:).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eximus 03-30-07, 10:34 PM	OK, I'm about to join a campaign that my friend is running. He is a HUGE powergamer. He told us that in order to survive in his world, it will be necessary to either a)Optimize the hell outta our characters, or b)Break the game. And I also just found out, that he has a way to scale any encounter for broken characters, so unfortunately I can't use Pun-Pun. lol. This is only my second campaign ever played, so I'm still kinda new to the game, and am only familiar with the PHB. I have access through my DM to the other books, but only the PHB, MM, and DMG are immediately allowed, every other book has to be approved. So I guess what I'm asking is, what class can I play for the best survivability? I was thinking a spiked chain figher or a duskblade, Any thoughts? Thanks!
Cold Napalm 03-30-07, 10:43 PM	druid 20...most broken thing in game besides thought exercises.
Mindolin 03-30-07, 10:45 PM	You want advice? Go to the Character Optimization boards, find some fun things there. The Spiked Chain is usually seen as a great weapon, but I've never used it. What level are you starting at? I might be able to help if you let me know that much.
TheAngryFish 03-30-07, 11:01 PM	Cleric, Druid, or Psion; I've taken them all to 20 and was unstoppable with each of them. I don't know of any challenge that these classes can't overcome.
Eximus 03-30-07, 11:59 PM	Mindolin. I've actually been toying around with the spiked chain idea. We are starting at lvl 4, and I don't think we're going to make it past lvl 10, just because of the sheer difficulty of the campaign. The only bad thing is that I have to get any other book other than the 3 i stated in my first book approved by my DM, which kinda limits what I can do to "break" the game, because he can see it coming.
Goldenmaxter 03-31-07, 12:01 AM	A level 20 monk is a true master. Unaffected by all kinds of things, he can just walk around and beat the bajesus out of noobs. Try that out. By the way, Monks aren't the best if you're starting out really low, they get O.K. at lv 3 and Great at lv 6.
Dragonteuthis 03-31-07, 03:16 AM	And I also just found out, that he has a way to scale any encounter for broken characters... Logically, that means you could make a sub-optimal build and he could scale it appropriately. Is there a reason you couldn't do that?
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-31-07, 03:32 AM	i second the druid 20 sujestion. Take spel focus conj, augmented summoning, ashbound summoning, and natural spell. Then invest heavily in the monster manuals. use your animal comapnion and summons to best effect you can. swarm and cast, and have the animal companion fight. make sure that nothing misses an action, and that you have more then what your fighting. However your most powerful option will not be found in any source material, WOTC or otherwise. the most powerful thing in combat is tactics. Good tactics will win fights. Bad tacics willlose them. there is no single factor that is as important as tactics. your DM may be able to through more power at you, but as long as you can out tactic him, you will win the day. i sujest studying up on them. Sun-Sue's the Art of war is a good place to start. Studying up on med-evil, and modern conflicts is another good thing to do. The problem with PUn-PUn is that there is no way to scale to scale anything except another pUn-pun to it. It has infanit stats, and every ability in the game. it will never die becuase it has infanit HP, and can never sumcum to ability damage becuase of infanite ability scores. It will never be hit with an attack, nor will it ever fail save. (except for natural 20's and ones.)
Eximus 03-31-07, 10:18 AM	If I could get a Druid to 20, I'd be all on that, but as is, I have a strong feeling that the campaign is going to be kinda short. Maybe I can talk him into allowing us to start at lvl 20, so he can have all the baddies he wants, and I can optimize the hell outta my char.
Cold Napalm 03-31-07, 01:30 PM	well the druid is good before level 5. Great before level 6...and utter brokenness after level 6. So even between level 4-10, it's a good choice to play.
Magrus 04-01-07, 01:53 AM	Personally, I'd play an expert that was going on strike against adventuring in this game just to ** of that kind of DM. See what he does when you optimize someone who starts riots against the rest of the party. That would be oodles of fun for me, and I DM more than half of the games I've been in. Second option, one that hasn't been covered. Play an Enchanter. You may not be the incredible dragon slayer or what not, but you could end up charming some very important people. Don't worry about being godlike, just throw your DM's world into chaos. Charm a *** in a city to seduce the lord who runs it. Get her to take everything he owns and bring it back to you. Buy something that goes "boom" and kill the nearest dragon, charm someone to set it off. Take the loot. He can be a power gamer, you outsmart him with role playing. Eventually, he'll rant at you. You can just smile and say "well, maybe next time we can both tone it down a little and play a normal game?"
Eximus 04-01-07, 10:53 AM	Hrmm... The only thing is that we are limited to the Core books, and it's a custom world. What's happening is that we are on a plane that has been ravaged by a war of the elementals. The elementals have created WMD's. Not nukes per se, but something close, like fire that can burn through stone, water so heavy the wind can't blow it etc... Oh and one more thing, ALL the dragons are dead!
Drag0nUL 04-01-07, 04:25 PM	Somehow, after I read the first 2 lines of this thread I was sure that most of the suggestions would be along the lines of CoDzilla 20. Well, being a powergamer myself I will have to disappoint you. An experienced optimizer can rip holes through an averagely played Druid 20 even by using a fighter. A build is only as good as the man who plays the character. The OP says this is his second campaign, so there is quite a good chance he hasn't yet mastered all the array of 'dirty tricks' that playing a heavily optimized character requires. So I will have to suggest keeping it simple: a dwarven defender: get the Con modifier as high as possible(+5 base is perfect but +4 will do also) and stack AC boosting items(full plate, tower shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor etc.)
plasword 04-01-07, 08:07 PM	No pun intended here, but (they tell me when the word but is used mid-sentence, people ignore the first part) I thought ALL DMs were poer gamers. no offense meant 2 any reading this. :hides: :incog: :duel: :help: :smirk: :OMG! :dragon:
Eximus 04-01-07, 08:20 PM	Lol. I was thinking of using the Spiked Chain fighter, with like a bijillion AoO's. I think I have a pretty decent build planned out so far. He is also letting us have a few a magic items. Any ideas for that? I know we are going to be atleast facing a Fighter/Pally, and a group of a Druid and a Cleric.
Daydreamer 04-01-07, 08:23 PM	Put your ideas on the character optimization board. or look at ideas already there. This is the sort of game id walk away from however, it sounds like ur being railroaded into something...however if this is what you like full steam ahead i guess.
Eximus 04-01-07, 08:48 PM	I wouldn't say railroaded. The DM is my best friend and he was telling me some of his ideas for the game to help me get prepared, because I'm the played with the least amount of experience in the game. I think it's going to be fun because I've always wanted to do something like this, being able to test stuff out since we have a reset button and all. I already know now that I'm going to **** him off :dancin: with some of my ideas. Like using a wand of shrink items to shrink the belt on one of the baddies and cut him in half. He is pretty lenient about some of the rules and rewards creativity, so here's hoping that this will work.
Daydreamer 04-01-07, 09:30 PM	ok then ^^ well i guess if you feel youll have fun nothing is wrong with it. I just cant stand powergaming, or games where the dm or pcs have a mechanical focus, but thats me. Good luck with this stuff, but seriously the best bet for ideas is the optimization board.
Eximus 04-01-07, 09:56 PM	Ya it'll be fun. In my first campaign he convinced me, the fighter, to talk our way out of a boss battle. Natural 20s FTW. Our DM was so pi$$ed. He was waiting for the fight, and it was all spoiled by being a pacifist. HAHA. He ended up banning all attempts to talk out way out of story important battles. Who know Air Mephits could be such good conversationalists?
Eximus 04-01-07, 09:59 PM	Double Post ><
Tytalus 04-02-07, 02:28 AM	Lol. I was thinking of using the Spiked Chain fighter, with like a bijillion AoO's. I think I have a pretty decent build planned out so far. He is also letting us have a few a magic items. Any ideas for that? I know we are going to be atleast facing a Fighter/Pally, and a group of a Druid and a Cleric. Still the state-of-the-art in tripping builds: Snow's Chain Tripper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005)
Zoycitenega 04-02-07, 03:39 PM	Coordinate with the rest of your party. Have one person who is awesome vs. traps, locks, and bluffing(rogue, or ninja if you can get it in), one person who is the meat tank, and a cleric/palidin for healing/diplomacy. Also, have someone who is good at knowledges so that you know about monster's before the first few rounds(fireball vs. formians is generally a bad idea) and make sure you have some quicksilver and such like that. If you're going vs. elementals, have some scrolls or spells that deal energy of the opposite alignment. You may want to pool half of your starting gold with the party to buy equipment.
FntsyWlkr 04-02-07, 04:36 PM	This is the way MY mind works. If you're worried about powergaming with the DM, I would take a Favored Soul. By design he's the "favored of the gods." Sure you could be a druid 20 or a wizard 20 ... ... but how about 20 levels of being the God's Favorite Person?!?! I mean geez.
Novabomb 04-02-07, 11:39 PM	A level 20 monk is a true master. Unaffected by all kinds of things, he can just walk around and beat the bajesus out of noobs. Try that out. By the way, Monks aren't the best if you're starting out really low, they get O.K. at lv 3 and Great at lv 6. Uh.....not so much. The lack of combat ability is a significant flaw. Not to mention the MAD.
Magnus029 04-03-07, 11:57 AM	No pun intended here, but (they tell me when the word but is used mid-sentence, people ignore the first part) I thought ALL DMs were poer gamers. no offense meant 2 any reading this. :hides: :incog: :duel: :help: :smirk: :OMG! :dragon: No offense taken! ******* So what, the DM is a powergaming bastard that wants to show that optimizing is the only way to go... I understand he is your best friend, that said to me this would suck the fun right out the game. Optimize or die, oo how fun. Let me get back to my video game and call me when you are ready to let people have fun.
Eximus 04-03-07, 01:47 PM	Not really a disadvantege. I want to see how powerful I can make my char, who wouldn't? I guess he is a firm believer of survival of the fittest. lol
moriarty13 04-03-07, 02:12 PM	Hmm, the stuff on the optimization boards probably won't be directly helpful because they usually focus on higher level builds. And usually more books=better. If you assume starting at 3rd level, that changes things too. A druid might not be bad, because an animal companion can help quite a bit. But I might suggest something that at higher level would sorta suck. But maybe a Half-orc Barbarian. Go for huge strength, dump int, wis, and cha into the toilet (maybe keep wis high for saves). Take Power Attack and a greatsword/axe and just chop away. Maybe plan for Frenzied Berzerker down the road, which is a very strong (though slightly crazy) PrC, but not from the books that are allowed. With only PHB and DMG, you don't have a lot of room for PrCs (since most of the DMG ones stink). And at 3rd level you probably will want to shy away from a gish build (sorc/fighter etc). Hit Points are good in a game where the DM is trying to kill you. As are saving throws. Or go for a paladin, ranger or druid and pray for a horse asap, and do a charger build. PA and lance is pretty good if you can stay on horseback:).