Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arlia 11-11-04, 02:01 AM	Something like this happened in my last game and we had an argument about it. As far as I know, the silence spell was following me but I didn't get to roll a save so I'm trying to think what are the possibilities of how that can happen? If an arrow was stuck in someone and the spell "silence" was casted on the arrow; would the person still get a save? Is the arrow considered a part of the person like the person's jewelry or is it a seperate object that does not get a saving throw like casting the spell on the ground? My friend playing with me thinks the GM set it up so that the vampiric NPC voluntarily allowed a targeted silence/area effect to be cast on her, turned gaseous and positioned behind my back and followed me. Carrying it out this way is obviously min/maxing a situation which allows the DM to guarantee a silence effect upon his players without allowing them a saving throw. I thought about it some more and the only thing I can think of how the GM had the silence is have the arrow silenced before it hits me. That is assuming that the arrow is the cause of the silence. In the scenario, we were dealing with vamps, lesser undead, and possibly a fighter since he should be the person shooting the arrows. If I moved away and the silence follows me then would one say it was something on me or me? Could the vamp with silence on him delay his turn until I move and move simultaneously with me? Thus giving the effect that the silence is following me at the same time? Now I also have to think of a solution if it is indeed the arrow that is the cause of it. If I broke the arrows, would the silence be broken? Some spells are broken if the object is no longer in the original state or whole. I can see abuse for it if the silence is intact on a broken object. For example a person can cast silence on a 100 foot rope and then cut it up to 100 1 foot pieces and then give it to 100 people. This is the last question I have; if the vamp turned to mist from his solid form, is the silence that was casted on him still on? Thanks
SpellMaster 11-11-04, 02:11 AM	I cant reference any rules for this, but this is how myself and everyone I've ever played with have played it: Anybody brought into an area of silence is silenced, no save. If an area of silence is brought over people, no save either. To be more specific: If an arrow was stuck in someone and the spell "silence" was casted on the arrow; would the person still get a save? We play it no save. Is the arrow considered a part of the person like the person's jewelry or is it a seperate object that does not get a saving throw like casting the spell on the ground? As the arrow was most likely either held by the caster or unattended, it does not get a saving throw. My friend playing with me thinks the GM set it up so that the vampiric NPC voluntarily allowed a targeted silence/area effect to be cast on her, turned gaseous and positioned behind my back and followed me. Carrying it out this way is obviously min/maxing a situation which allows the DM to guarantee a silence effect upon his players without allowing them a saving throw. This part sort of depends on the DM. It is entirely possible that the vampire was smart enough to come up with this idea. But it is also possible that the DM was simply trumping his players using sneaky tactics. But it is possible for the vampire to do that. In the scenario, we were dealing with vamps, lesser undead, and possibly a fighter since he should be the person shooting the arrows. If I moved away and the silence follows me then would one say it was something on me or me? Could the vamp with silence on him delay his turn until I move and move simultaneously with me? Thus giving the effect that the silence is following me at the same time? Both of these could happen. If the arrow was previously silenced before hitting you, it could be that. And yes, the vampire could ready an action to move with you (but only his base movement, since readying an action can only be done with standard actions. He could also delay until its your turn, then just move where you do. Now I also have to think of a solution if it is indeed the arrow that is the cause of it. If I broke the arrows, would the silence be broken? Some spells are broken if the object is no longer in the original state or whole. This is iffy, and has never come up with us. But I would say that breaking the arrow negates the spell. Your reasoning is sound on this, IMO. This is the last question I have; if the vamp turned to mist from his solid form, is the silence that was casted on him still on? Yes. Since he didn't die or anything, it will still affect him. It is similar to casting Bull's Strength on yourself then polymorphing. You still get the bonus. Hope that helped.
clarkcd 11-11-04, 02:28 AM	If an arrow was stuck in someone and the spell "silence" was casted on the arrow; would the person still get a save? Yes. Any time a person comes into contact with an emination they get spell resistance and the appropriate save, if they wish. Regardless, the arrow/silence trick is a bit suspect since an arrow that hits its target is considered destroyed. Is the arrow considered a part of the person like the person's jewelry or is it a seperate object that does not get a saving throw like casting the spell on the ground? The vampire would have cast the spell on the arrow when it was in his posession. Normally objects (unless magical) don't get saves but if they are in someones posession they can. This spell only allows a save if the subject is unwilling. Since the vampire was willing there would be no save. Once anyone else comes into contact with the silence emination they can use spell resistance and a will save if they are unwilling, which it sounds like you are. My friend playing with me thinks the GM set it up so that the vampiric NPC voluntarily allowed a targeted silence/area effect to be cast on her, turned gaseous and positioned behind my back and followed me. Carrying it out this way is obviously min/maxing a situation which allows the DM to guarantee a silence effect upon his players without allowing them a saving throw. A vampire in gaseous form can only fly at 20ft and can't run. You should have been able to get away from the translucent gas following you. Also, because gaseous form makes the target translucent, not transparent like invisibility, the vampire should have been visible. If I moved away and the silence follows me then would one say it was something on me or me? That really can't be said. It could be you, something on you or just something following you. Regardless you should have gotten a save and your character would have known that they were forced to make a save (but not whether they failed or succeeded). Could the vamp with silence on him delay his turn until I move and move simultaneously with me? Yes. Thus giving the effect that the silence is following me at the same time? Yes. Now I also have to think of a solution if it is indeed the arrow that is the cause of it. If I broke the arrows, would the silence be broken? Some spells are broken if the object is no longer in the original state or whole. I rule that if you cast a spell on an object and that object is broken the spell no longer functions. I'm not sure how, or if, the rules take into account active spells on items that break. I can see abuse for it if the silence is intact on a broken object. For example a person can cast silence on a 100 foot rope and then cut it up to 100 1 foot pieces and then give it to 100 people. A perfect example of why broken items shouldn't keep their spell (or at the very least each part of the item). This is the last question I have; if the vamp turned to mist from his solid form, is the silence that was casted on him still on? Yes. Being a gas doesn't affect active spells.
Arquinsiel 11-11-04, 09:40 AM	We polay no save. If the item is broken though the magical field holding the effect together is broken ending the spell. We found it can be quite interesting for storming tough places with some degree of stealth: DM: Your searching reveals that the doors are all barred from the inside and trapped heavily. Me: (an elven rogue type) Dang, I wish I listened in trap-breaking class. DM: Yeah, you should have taken some ranks in Disable Device alright. Me: what are the windows like? DM: They are large paned glass windows. They are all visably locked and you think they're most likely trapped too. Me: (to party bard) Hmmm.... remember that brick I picked up? Wanna silence it? Bard: Sure. Me: I throw the silenced brick through the window, what happens? Group: Breaks down laughing, much time passes before sanity returns.
krichaiushii 11-11-04, 10:17 AM	Just for reference, from the SRD: Silence Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 2, Clr 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object) Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object) Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks. By chance does your DM roll saving throws for players in secret? Maybe he did here. Is there a chance that Silence was cast on an object (a rock perhaps) then said object was placed on your PC using Sleight of Hand? Perhaps an air elemental was summoned, had Silence cast upon it, and was ordered to follow your PC around (good until you move out of range or the spell ends). Maybe the arrow-firer was an arcane archer who had somehow imbued Silence into his arrow? Again, from the SRD, regarding the Arcane Archer's ability: Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted. Just some thoughts.
Thoronmir 11-11-04, 03:10 PM	The issue of enchanting arrows became a matter of debate in my group. We always considered an Arcane Archer’s Imbue Arrow ability to be more effective than simply casting a spell on an arrow. However, we decided to allow the use of AOE spells on arrows. As long as the archer hits his target (which can include an inanimate target near his opponent, e.g., a specific spot on the floor), the spell takes effect. If he misses his target, the arrow breaks and the spell fails. Our ground rules for enchanting arrows: 1. The spell must have an AOE and a duration longer than Instantaneous. 2. The archer may target an inanimate object/area as long as the target can be penetrated by an arrow. This is essentially a test of reasonableness. An arrow isn’t going to penetrate a stone floor, but it will sink into a table near your opponent. 3. If the archer targets an inanimate object/area, the DM determines an appropriate AC for the target. Factors include relative hardness (easier to stick your arrow in mud than solid ground) and size (easier to hit a table than a window ledge). 4. As long as the archer hits his target, the arrow sticks and the spell takes effect. If the archer misses, the arrow breaks and the spell fails. 5. If anyone breaks the arrow after it hits, the spell fails. 6. Obviously, if the archer targets an object near his opponent, his opponent can move away from the arrow and out of the AOE. If the archer targets (and hits) an opponent, the AOE remains centered on the target until someone breaks the arrow. That said, all normal rules for Resistances and Saves apply in our game. My personal favorites for this technique have been Silence and Light. When I played my Ranger/Bard, I’d cast Light on my arrow and use it as a flare.
kliate 11-11-04, 03:20 PM	Another thought - have you picked up much treasure lately? Even the last copper piece you picked up is a suspect for this sort of thing. Try dropping items that you've acquired more recently.
Derren S. 11-11-04, 04:01 PM	Casting silence on an arrow and shoot it doesn't work as arrows are considered destroyed when they hit a target so silence would be dispelled immeadiatly.
Arlia 11-11-04, 04:08 PM	As the arrow was most likely either held by the caster or unattended, it does not get a saving throw. How events happened during that time I believe was that the arrow hit me on the first action by the enemy. Then the second enemy's action was to cast silence on the arrow that landed on my character. Since the arrow is stuck on me then it should be a part of me and not a seperate object. Otherwise wizards can always claim to be targeting the armor on a fighter since it is an inanimate object that gets no save and always land the spell on the fighter. This part sort of depends on the DM. It is entirely possible that the vampire was smart enough to come up with this idea. But it is also possible that the DM was simply trumping his players using sneaky tactics. But it is possible for the vampire to do that. I have a feeling that it is the latter. When I was turning undead, I don't think he realized how fast I was taking out the lower level undead. He then said that the vampires were just testing our abilities before they attacked. This is iffy, and has never come up with us. But I would say that breaking the arrow negates the spell. Your reasoning is sound on this, IMO. Hope that helped. It has helped. I just needed somewhere to vent my frustration and get opinions here. I still believe that it was the arrow stuck in me that got silenced instead of the silenced vampire. Just have to wait until the end of the scenario to hear what was actually happened.
Arlia 11-11-04, 04:28 PM	Yes. Any time a person comes into contact with an emination they get spell resistance and the appropriate save, if they wish. Regardless, the arrow/silence trick is a bit suspect since an arrow that hits its target is considered destroyed. Apparently my GM doesn't see it that way since the enemy can still target it. The vampire would have cast the spell on the arrow when it was in his posession. Normally objects (unless magical) don't get saves but if they are in someones posession they can. Does having an arrow stuck in me count as being in my possession? This spell only allows a save if the subject is unwilling. Since the vampire was willing there would be no save. Once anyone else comes into contact with the silence emination they can use spell resistance and a will save if they are unwilling, which it sounds like you are. What you are saying is that if the silenced area came to me then I still get a saving throw? A vampire in gaseous form can only fly at 20ft and can't run. You should have been able to get away from the translucent gas following you. Also, because gaseous form makes the target translucent, not transparent like invisibility, the vampire should have been visible. Right. I talked about that at the last quote. That really can't be said. It could be you, something on you or just something following you. Regardless you should have gotten a save and your character would have known that they were forced to make a save (but not whether they failed or succeeded). My GM would roll dice just as red herrings since anytime a GM rolls dice is usually a hint that something is about to happen. He could be rolling saves without trying to tip too much info to the players, but then isn't that taking away some of the player's rights? Yes. Being a gas doesn't affect active spells. Now that got me thinking if my gm can target an arrow then would he use that same logic in thinking to target the gaseous form. The vampire had to have sneaked in unseen into the midst of our group. Can you then target the gaseous cloud to be silenced? The silence just seemed to have came out of nowhere centered on me.We did not get spot checks to see if the cloud was blowing into our party. If the vampire walked in already silenced then each of my party member should have had an awareness check as the vampire passed them.
Arlia 11-11-04, 04:35 PM	Just for reference, from the SRD: Silence Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 2, Clr 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object) Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object) Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks. By chance does your DM roll saving throws for players in secret? Maybe he did here. Possible. I just hate not being informed about actions that involve my character. Is there a chance that Silence was cast on an object (a rock perhaps) then said object was placed on your PC using Sleight of Hand? Perhaps an air elemental was summoned, had Silence cast upon it, and was ordered to follow your PC around (good until you move out of range or the spell ends). Maybe the arrow-firer was an arcane archer who had somehow imbued Silence into his arrow? Unless vampires can summon Air elementals and if the elementals were invisible then how can they cast the spell on them? Again even if I didn't know something was placed on me I should get to make an awareness roll to spot the thief and a saving throw against the spell. The GM shouldn't be doing that for me. Again, from the SRD, regarding the Arcane Archer's ability: Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted. Just some thoughts. It had better not be an arcane archer since we haven't even reached epic yet and that would be totally unfair piting an epic character versus non-epic characters.
Ogmug 11-11-04, 05:08 PM	Possible. I just hate not being informed about actions that involve my character. Unless vampires can summon Air elementals and if the elementals were invisible then how can they cast the spell on them? Again even if I didn't know something was placed on me I should get to make an awareness roll to spot the thief and a saving throw against the spell. The GM shouldn't be doing that for me. It had better not be an arcane archer since we haven't even reached epic yet and that would be totally unfair piting an epic character versus non-epic characters. arcane archer: ARCANE ARCHER Hit Die: d8. Requirements To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: Elf or half-elf. Base Attack Bonus: +6. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow). Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells. So. 1st level sorcerer, followed by 6 levels of fighter, and 2 levels of Archer and 3 levels of cleric =12th level. Far from epic.
Arlia 11-11-04, 05:14 PM	Our party hasn't quite reached Epic yet so Iwould hope that ym GM isn't throwing Epic characters against us. :)
Arlia 11-11-04, 05:16 PM	Another thought - have you picked up much treasure lately? Even the last copper piece you picked up is a suspect for this sort of thing. Try dropping items that you've acquired more recently. We have picked up loot but that was last session and we weren't silenced then unless there was some sort of delayed silence of some sort.
Arlia 11-11-04, 05:18 PM	arcane archer: So. 1st level sorcerer, followed by 6 levels of fighter, and 2 levels of Archer and 3 levels of cleric =12th level. Far from epic. Arcane Archers isn't an Epic Class?
Ogmug 11-11-04, 05:47 PM	in reality.. you can build an AA in 10 levels Unknown, Male Half-Elf Clr3/Sor1/Ftr4/Arc2: CR 10; Medium Humanoid (Elf); HD 3d8(Cleric) , 1d4(Sorcerer) , 4d10(Fighter) , 2d8(Arcane Archer) ; hp 54; Init +0; Spd 30; AC:10 (Flatfooted:10 Touch:10); Atk +8/3 base melee, +8/3 base ranged; SQ: Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex), Low-light Vision (Ex), +2 Saves vs. Spells and Spell-like Effects; RF: Elven Blood; AL CG; SV Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +6; STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 10. Skills: Diplomacy +2, Gather Information +2, Listen +1, Search +1, Spot +1. Mind you..I didn't do the stats, etc, i just built upon required feats, BAB, race, and spell use. this woudl be able to cast silence.. (not with the stats listed)
Ogmug 11-11-04, 05:50 PM	Arcane Archers isn't an Epic Class? Nope. It is a PrC
krichaiushii 11-11-04, 07:51 PM	Vampires with character classes can summon elementals. Cleric vampires are particularly nasty. Friendly air elementals of size Large (for reach!) or bigger make wonderful targets for Silence spells. Then you send them after spellcasters. ;) Though the SRD doesn't say one way or the other, I guess I always presumed that air elementals are hard to see. Maybe not invisible, but certainly nigh-transparent. Except in whirlwind form, of course. If your DM has the same thinking, then there you go...
Nom 11-11-04, 08:11 PM	How events happened during that time I believe was that the arrow hit me on the first action by the enemy. Then the second enemy's action was to cast silence on the arrow that landed on my character. Since the arrow is stuck on me then it should be a part of me and not a seperate object. Otherwise wizards can always claim to be targeting the armor on a fighter since it is an inanimate object that gets no save and always land the spell on the fighter.Considering that there are no rules for "projectiles sticking in people" and that any projectile (vs thrown weapon) that hits is considered destroyed, there isn't any support for an arrow sticking in you in the first place. Even if there were, an object on your person (worn or carried, voluntary or involuntary) is an attended object, and thus the owner gets a saving throw when the object is targeted by a spell (exception: Druid 6 repel wood and family). If silence is cast on an object "attached" to you, you get a save on behalf of the object. DM judgement would be required if the object were not in close proximity, like a long rope dragging behind you. However, none of this prevents someone from moving an area of silence towards you, thus suppressing any noise in the area that you happen to be in. The following are legitimate: * Casting silence on a rock, and then throwing the rock into the target area. * Casting silence on a rock, and then carrying the rock into the target area. * Casting silence on the target area directly (immobile). * Casting silence on a target (allows save and SR by the target only). * Casting silence on yourself and then moving to the target (awkward if you later decide you don't want to be silenced). Casting silence on an arrow and shooting it in is usually not legitimate, since the arrow is considered destroyed if it successfully hits a target. Hitting the ground may be OK. Attempting to forcibly place a silenced object (not a projectile) on another character is not covered by the rules, but should be a rather difficult operation involving grappling, disarm or sleight of hand checks. That said, using silence to aid in an ambush is a valid use of the spell. There are some caveats: * Except in already very quiet areas, a creature will notice if the area it is in goes unnaturally silent. "I can't even hear my own footsteps" is usually a good enough clue. If an area suddenly went silent, I'd be making Spot checks in every direction I could think of! * In a silenced area, communication is impossible except by telepathy or gestures. In the case of a vampire, it may still use its dominating gaze (this grants telepathic command), but will be unable to directly command any animals, spawn or undead under its command. They will still follow existing orders to the best of their ability. * Turning gaseous isn't that great an option for an ambush, and silence doesn't really help much. While gaseous, the vampire can't be heard anyway, so silence won't help there. While gaseous, the vampire is not invisible, so can be spotted as normal. It gains DR 10/magic, but that's weaker than what a vampire has anyway, and being (Su) the stronger 10/silver and magic ceases to function while gaseous (see gaseous form). While gaseous, it can't fight back and it takes a standard action (no AoO) to return to normal (see dissmissable spells). The only significant advantage the vampire gains from the silence is that you can't cry for help or cast spells.
Arlia 11-12-04, 01:30 PM	Considering that there are no rules for "projectiles sticking in people" and that any projectile (vs thrown weapon) that hits is considered destroyed, there isn't any support for an arrow sticking in you in the first place. Even if there were, an object on your person (worn or carried, voluntary or involuntary) is an attended object, and thus the owner gets a saving throw when the object is targeted by a spell (exception: Druid 6 repel wood and family). If silence is cast on an object "attached" to you, you get a save on behalf of the object. DM judgement would be required if the object were not in close proximity, like a long rope dragging behind you. However, none of this prevents someone from moving an area of silence towards you, thus suppressing any noise in the area that you happen to be in. The following are legitimate: * Casting silence on a rock, and then throwing the rock into the target area. * Casting silence on a rock, and then carrying the rock into the target area. * Casting silence on the target area directly (immobile). * Casting silence on a target (allows save and SR by the target only). * Casting silence on yourself and then moving to the target (awkward if you later decide you don't want to be silenced). Yes, I accept those points from above. I know it is all still speculation until that scenario/session ends and I finally find out what was the true cause. Sometimes I think that the GM will force a situation upon us regardless of whatever actions the players can take to try to prevent it. Sometimes I feel that I have to catch the GM in what he says and make sure he doesn't go back on his words or change things around just so he can keep his scenario under his control. It's been almost a week and it still bothers me a bit about this whole thing. That said, using silence to aid in an ambush is a valid use of the spell. There are some caveats: * Except in already very quiet areas, a creature will notice if the area it is in goes unnaturally silent. "I can't even hear my own footsteps" is usually a good enough clue. If an area suddenly went silent, I'd be making Spot checks in every direction I could think of! * In a silenced area, communication is impossible except by telepathy or gestures. In the case of a vampire, it may still use its dominating gaze (this grants telepathic command), but will be unable to directly command any animals, spawn or undead under its command. They will still follow existing orders to the best of their ability. * Turning gaseous isn't that great an option for an ambush, and silence doesn't really help much. While gaseous, the vampire can't be heard anyway, so silence won't help there. While gaseous, the vampire is not invisible, so can be spotted as normal. It gains DR 10/magic, but that's weaker than what a vampire has anyway, and being (Su) the stronger 10/silver and magic ceases to function while gaseous (see gaseous form). While gaseous, it can't fight back and it takes a standard action (no AoO) to return to normal (see dissmissable spells). The only significant advantage the vampire gains from the silence is that you can't cry for help or cast spells. The GM just said that everything became quiet and when I moved, my other party members could start hearing, OOC. So if a vampire is in a silenced area then he can't command or summon undead? Is that what you're saying in your second point? The fact that I can't turn undead and cast spell is a big enough advantage as it is since I'm the only spellcaster in the group.
Nom 11-12-04, 08:03 PM	The GM just said that everything became quiet and when I moved, my other party members could start hearing, OOC.Yes. No sound will pass "into, out of or through" the silenced area. The area moves with its centre. Note that silence doesn't stop you hearing, or even making sound. It just completely suppresses any sound that is made so that it has no effect. So if a vampire is in a silenced area then he can't command or summon undead? Is that what you're saying in your second point?He cannot do anything that requires sound. Unless the ability specifies mental communication (ie dominate), you cannot "command" something if it can't hear you. The fact that I can't turn undead and cast spell is a big enough advantage as it is since I'm the only spellcaster in the group.Turning undead has a Material component, a strongly presented holy symbol. Nothing on PH pg 159 specifies a verbal component. Obviously, an evil cleric can't "command" undead, but the other three modes should work fine. Spells are a problem, as almost all have a V component, but that's why silence is nasty.
Arlia 11-13-04, 09:35 AM	Yes. No sound will pass "into, out of or through" the silenced area. The area moves with its centre. Note that silence doesn't stop you hearing, or even making sound. It just completely suppresses any sound that is made so that it has no effect. He cannot do anything that requires sound. Unless the ability specifies mental communication (ie dominate), you cannot "command" something if it can't hear you. I'm not quite sure how undeads think but the GM rationalized that since the cleric is the biggest threat since the cleric has the largest "positive" energy and the undead are drawn to destroy that first. So basically I have a big target on me when dealing with undead. I don't have a monster manual so could a vamp actually control other undeads or are they just drawn to destroy anything with positive energy or Life force since they are negative undead energy. If they can then how can they do it? Turning undead has a Material component, a strongly presented holy symbol. Nothing on PH pg 159 specifies a verbal component. Obviously, an evil cleric can't "command" undead, but the other three modes should work fine. Spells are a problem, as almost all have a V component, but that's why silence is nasty. We have a house rule that the cleric must invoke the god's name for turning undead. oh, well. I have the silence spell feat; does that mean I can silence my turning?
Nom 11-13-04, 03:06 PM	I'm not quite sure how undeads think but the GM rationalized that since the cleric is the biggest threat since the cleric has the largest "positive" energy and the undead are drawn to destroy that first. So basically I have a big target on me when dealing with undead. I don't have a monster manual so could a vamp actually control other undeads or are they just drawn to destroy anything with positive energy or Life force since they are negative undead energy. If they can then how can they do it?This is a different topic. Considering that as a cleric you have a 'good' (or whatever) aura, it's entirely reasonable for the vampire to single you out for special attention. My point is that the vampire cannot use any ability or action that requires noise while silenced, including giving verbal commands to allies. We have a house rule that the cleric must invoke the god's name for turning undead. oh, well. I have the silence spell feat; does that mean I can silence my turning?No. Turning undead is neither a spell nor a spell-like ability; it is a supernatural ability. MM pg 315 notes that spell like abilities "are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus or XP components". However, there is potential to apply limited metamagic to spell-like abilities; MM pg 303-304 lists feats to Empower or Quicken spell-like abilities. Supernatural abilities go a step further. They are not spells in any way and thus not affected by such considerations, each ability being defined by its own rules. In your case, you could create a feat 'Silent Turning', which allows you to turn undead without needing to make noise, but this does rather feel to me like introducing an unnecessary house rule and then creating a feat to undo the effect of said rule.
Arlia 11-14-04, 02:56 AM	Supernatural abilities go a step further. They are not spells in any way and thus not affected by such considerations, each ability being defined by its own rules. In your case, you could create a feat 'Silent Turning', which allows you to turn undead without needing to make noise, but this does rather feel to me like introducing an unnecessary house rule and then creating a feat to undo the effect of said rule. I stopped trying to understand DM's long ago. ;) So is the drow's ability to create darkness a supernatural ability? Is turn undead a supernatural ability? If so then can a drow still create darkness while in an anti-magic field/area? How does this differ from my situation as a cleric not being able to turn undead while in a silenced area when the turning has a verbal component to it?
Nom 11-14-04, 07:33 PM	I stopped trying to understand DM's long ago. ;) So is the drow's ability to create darkness a supernatural ability? Is turn undead a supernatural ability?MM pg 103, Drow (elf subrace): "Spell-like abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: ... darkness, ..." Spell-like abilities are spells for most purposes, except that they have no M,S,V or F/DF components. MM pg 315 is the best reference, and see also DMG pg 289-290 (including errata). Spell-like abilities provoke AoOs and are subject to concentration checks. As for turn undead, see PH pg 33: "Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)". It's a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities are magical (and are supressed in an anti-magic field), but are otherwise not treated as spells (e.g. they cannot be dispelled or counterspelled). Supernatural abilities (usually) do not provoke AoOs and are (usually) not subject to concentration checks. For reference, the third type of ability is Extraordinary (Ex); roguish Evasion is an Ex ability. Ex abilities are unusual but non-magical. Most poisons and diseases are Ex, as is some forms of DR. If so then can a drow still create darkness while in an anti-magic field/area?No. How does this differ from my situation as a cleric not being able to turn undead while in a silenced area when the turning has a verbal component to it?A cleric can't turn in an anti-magic field either. Spells, Sp, Su, and any ongoing magic - regardless of source - are all suppressed in an A-M field. A drow can use their darkness spell-like ability while silenced (or grappled or tied up), because spell-like abilities don't have V, S, or M components. The drow would still provoke an AoO as normal for spellcasting. The issue is that your DM has ruled that turning requires speech. In an area of silence, anything requiring noise doesn't work. There's no particular mechanic or flag that says what does and doesn't require noise, you just need to figure it out from the description of the activity. For example, a creature with a sound burst spell-like ability could cast the sound burst while silenced (spell-like abilities don't have a V component), but if it were targeted inside the silenced area it wouldn't make any noise, and consequently have no effect.