Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master Agnald 09-21-04, 12:29 AM	I'm currently playing a friend of mine's campaign. My group includes my female human paladin, my friend's male human monk and my other friend's male human rogue (who can barely kill anything). Problem is that his campaign is way too railroaded... ok, I understand you gotta have a couple of plot hooks... but... we didn't do anything! This is what happened: DM: so, you're walking in the city. Me: have our characters met already? DM: yes. Me: how did they meet? DM: that's not important. Other PC: meh, let's say we met at a pub. DM: whatever... so, as I was saying... blah, blah, blah, princess, blah, blah, kidnapping, blah, blah, magical power... See what I mean? soon we saw a guard dying and when we realized it we were in a tomb looking for a kidnapped princess... we fought some shadows, a gelatinous cube fell on my character's head (see the "Roleplaying characters of opposite gender" thread for more information), fought some more shadows, cubes and then bugbears (one of them, after spanked, revealed that the big boss' name was Babu)... then we found the princess... after that we left the tomb to find the city where the tomb was located in flames. Orcs, ogres and bugbears everywhere... so we fought an Ogre... now, see what the DM said then... DM: if the princess dies, it's game over and you'll lose all the experience earned in this campaign. Me: WTF??? I mean, I understand losing XP for letting a plot-important character die, but... an immediate game over is stupid! Soon, we found out she was a nymph... and she had a vorpal electrical dagger!!! By the way, the party's average level was 5... then she saw her mother dead and being eaten by Hell hounds... some more battling, and we went to the princess' aunt's house... it was FF9 all over again... then we were in a cave full of ghouls after some sort of magic stone, but that needs to be energized, so we'll have to go to the city of Gods (that's the name of the city) to energize it... that's where last session ended, because he had not prepared the continuation of it... but I know we'll be fighting a white dragon pretty soon... basically, all that session was about was battle, battle, long laughable cliched story, battle, battle, dialogue, more battle and so on... not a single trap besides the gelationous cube one (he didn't even allow me to do a reflex save to escape it... and there was plenty of room to dodge the thing) and very few skill checks... only search checks to find potions... no room for RPing... anybody has any ideas, suggestions, comments, anything to help improve this campaign.
Callista 09-21-04, 12:41 AM	How would your DM react if you decided to role-play, whether s/he liked it or not?
The_Dark_One 09-21-04, 12:52 AM	I mean, I understand losing XP for letting a plot-important character die, I may be alone in this, but the DM should not be able to take XP away---EVER. Xp is earned and, once given, becomes the sole property of the player. Taking XP away is never a valid punishment, because it diminshes the past acomplishments of both player and PC. Even the most egregious offense should be punished in some other fashion. Oh, and a DM who punishes the PCs for failing to achive a story goal deserves to be shot-in the face-with a hammer.
Master Agnald 09-21-04, 01:14 AM	@Callista: well... I did try to roleplay... but considering we're all 15/16 years old, and that my companions (except the DM, who's actually pretty dedicated, just a bit too influenced by playstation RPGs) have the attention of a 5 year, there's not much room for RPing... especially because the table is a mess and the guy playing the monk is loud as hell... I'm not the greatest actor in the world, but I think I play my role pretty well... an honoured, dedicated and pure paladin... but there wasn't much RPing you can do when all you can interact with are things that need to be hacked and slashed... besides that, the monk seemed to do something that almost resembled RPing, which was patronizing and hitting on the princess frequently... while rogue never really spoke in character... it seems as if the DM isn't even caring wether you RP or not... he just wants to get his story going... which is obviously so horribly railroaded that instantly ends if the princess gets killed :\ ... @Dark_one: couldn't agree more... it's already pretty hard to get a good amount of XP... and taking it away is just wrong... what I do when I absolutely have to deal with a plot-important NPC is to either diminish the XP gained in that encounter if the character gets killed (but not really trying to kill the NPC, just dealing some damage to make them waste a couple of potions... unless it is planned for the guy to die during the combat) or to give a small XP reward if the character is safe and whole by the end of the encounter. But I usually avoid using plot-important NPCs.
Big__Chops 09-21-04, 01:50 AM	RUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!! your dm seems to me to have the qualifacations of a baked potato. :thumbsdow :uh-huh: :nonono: :twitch: :banghead:
Master Agnald 09-21-04, 02:13 AM	Lol... I'm pretty sure a baked potato couldn't DM better than my DM... bad thing is that I can't just walk up to him and tell: "You suck!" because he's a long-time friend and the rest of the group seems to be enjoying the campaign :banghead: ... though the guy playing the monk actually has the intellect of a baked potato and the guy playing the rogue is just plain useless... actually, it's the third time he plays a useless character... I need a new gaming group... I would offer myself to be the DM... but I have a very bad short term memory and the 2 times I tried doing so, I ended up forgetting things as the turn list (some round orders kept getting inverted) and sometimes dead monsters had turns... so I don't think I qualify as a DM either... *reads Big Chops sig* Oh, yeah, I'm just as embarassed as you are, my friend.
Lord_Naerik 09-21-04, 02:46 AM	Friendly tip Our group prepares small cards (buisiness card size) on which we write the initiative of each player and monster. When a combatant is eliminated, we remove the card from the deck. It takes a few minutes...once. After that it is a massive time saver.
oldmandm 09-21-04, 05:47 AM	Master Agnald, i copy pasted your story to my Pocket pc if you don't mind. As a reminder to quit DMing and burn my books if i ever do something remotely like that with my Gaming group. I don't know how a group could be kept off mind controling drugs enough to cope with the constant random story changes and cliches. It all seems to be a bad dream. Ideas to improve the "campaign"... :mymy: First: Get a new DM, it won't matter if they or you have DM'd before. It can't be worse unless you try... real hard. Why don't you try to DMing again. Or get a new group. Sorry to hear about your woes man. It sucks to spend time at a game like this to have it turn into a bad movie type acid trip.
Archangel 09-21-04, 06:30 AM	You think that is bad?? Well listen to this. A lvl 11 party of a Paladin (with a pegasus), a Shade Bard (neutral alignment), a Psi warrior archer and a Wereape ranger find themselves in a middle of a desert againsts some kind of a Mummy and escape only to learn they are being tracked by 7 desert trolls (immune to fire ??) and somehow they know they can't beat them so they run away until they get to a jungle (and while running they lose all their magical equipment - some to sand, some they have to leave behind - including their rings and amulets, but still have masterwork versions of their weapons of choice ????). Now that was a DM story how we got to the jungle! Nice, eh? A adventure without a story? So now we find this village and they tell us they have almost no contact with the outside world and don't even know about magic but the have an INN?? So the town elder tells us to not go north because there is something bad there but she doesn't know what. So of course we go north. We run into a Gorgon and survive all but the Pegasus. So now we continue north and find a cave. After some scouting we find those same trolls in the cave (desert trolls remember?). And our fight loving Psi Warrior calls to them even after we decided to go around the cave. So now we must fight (we are mostly good, can't leave a friend in trouble) and buff. They show themselves and all of them have these two large sized throwing axes. And they start throwing them at us and do a whooping 1d8+20 damage with each and they teleport instantly to the throwers hand (some enchantment DM invented). We get our asses handed to us on a silver plate and retreat. But somehow 2 of the axes didn't return so we take them with us since they show magic! Also for the whole fight the trolls didn't come out of the cave and only waited for us to show so they can pelter us with axes (and if they did they could have surely killed us all)! So now we meat this cleric (another PC) and lose a Paladin (it was next session so the player already quit and we others decided to give the DM another chance) who teleports (travel domain) us to his temple that is some way north (a week of walking). There we identify the axes and DM says it is a +5 large throwing axe of phasing that returns to the user hand once thrown. So my large wereape in hybrid form goes out to test them and after it hits its mark it disapeares but not to my hand (??). So I look at the DM and say to myself whatever. So now we find out that the Trolls are 12 hours away from the temple and our priest decides to evacuate the temple (although it is build like a fortress, and later we found out it was a right decision). Only we four stay because the priest has teleport if we get into trouble. So we take ranged weapons, find a best spot and when we see them buff (and what a crazy combination a Bard and a cleric are for buffing others). So now we use great range of bows and start dealing damage to them. Our archer around a 40 damage per round and I around 10! But they come below us (we were in a tower 45 feet up) and start throwing their axes at us. Our Psi warrior buffs so he has AC 41 but they still hit him no matter the range increment penalties (we later calculated +26 attack; so that are trolls that have +26 attack and do 1d8+20 with throwing axes against lvl 11 chars without equipment). Then after few rounds of firing and healing we decide to run and we haven't even stopped one of them! So your campain is still worse? Let's just say I really don't know what that DM must do so we would continue this campain!
Joe Khol 09-21-04, 08:09 AM	Problem is that his campaign is way too railroaded... ok, I understand you gotta have a couple of plot hooks... but... we didn't do anything! Why are you complaining to us about it when you should be complaining to your DM? Be calm, fair and honest about it and offer positive constructive advice not constant negative criticism. Of course, you also need a good answer to the question 'Could you do any better?'.
Xenocide 09-21-04, 08:12 AM	Both campaigns are pathetic. I've had DM's like that. They have played a lot of computer RPG's and want to translate that into the game. It doesn't work mostly because.....THE COMPUTER GAMES ARE BETTER!!! If you have a DM who has to have FMV sequences and cheap methods of compulsion, explain to them (I'm breaking a personal rule by saying this) that they are playing wrong and it's taking a lot if not all of the fun out of the game. I currently DM a campaign that is mostly player-driven. The characters all have their goals and aspirations and while not all of them show up every session, at least every other session they move towards them. My human fighter is building up a port town and fortifying his tower from which he rules and the others live. The gnome wizard is seeking his lost race (gnomes disappeared years ago) and trying to find out why that vanished. The elven ranger is seeking his lost sister who was captured in a recent war by human supremacists. The halfling druid is trying to set up a druidic circle and restore the ecological balance. Sounds like if there is a real story in these games it's akin to a Final Fantasy one, prewritten with only the most mild interaction. A good DM has to expect craziness to happen. My BBEG who was supposed to live for at least 3 or 4 more sessions died to good tactics I hadn't foreseen. Some of my plot hooks they never caught on to. Honestly, your DMs seem horrible. Find a new group if you can or stop playing if you're not having fun. maybe play an RPG game with each player controlling one character. It's got to be more fun than that.
Vegeta8472 09-21-04, 09:44 AM	To cure him of PS2 plotlines...get your DM hooked on Baldur's Gate I&II. No, not the console version, the PC version. SOOO much better. We'll ignore the 2nd edition rules, but everyone should have some experience with them. And I agree with the above poster, DMing free-form is probably the most fun for DMs and players (if the DM can do it right). I'll introduce NPCs either as part of a story I intended, or as they're needed. If one dies, I reflect on how that would affect the world the game takes place in and it's up to the players how they're going to deal with it. Most recent example: In Athas, the two players escaped arena enslavement (one was born a slave and the other recently captured...then the story began) in their first session. It was fun for everyone, as I barely led a thing. They came up with ideas and I ran with them. A big boon was when I rolled an attack for a guard and came up 1. He knocked out another guard, and so on XD They get out, and I ask what they'd like to do now. On their own, they decide to join the resistance against the dragon-kings ruling the city-states of Athas. That made my job a lot easier. They thought of their own way to get it, their own way to accomplish the test the resistance requested to prove themselves, ect. We had lots of fun. Planned NPCs: Those working in the resistance. Non-planned NPCs: A psion healer one of the party members desperately needed at the time, who ended up being in the resistance and a boon to their mission. I must say, the non-planned PCs usually are more organic. Very spur-of-the-moment sort of things. We'll ignore that I later cut her down (one of the PCs was involved with her sexually) with a spinewyrm in the desert between city-states. In months to come, she'll make a re-appearance as an undead that is very ****** (had to crawl her way out of the desert and track them down...needless to say she turned evil). Sprinkling in little bits of flavor that wasn't really planned can go a long way.
Phrennzy 09-21-04, 09:50 AM	DMing is hard work. It requires a lot of time and energy to prepare. I'm sure your friend is doing the best he can. I am also sure that a lot of his flaws in DMing comes from inexperience and age. Every DM sucked at one time or another. Video games have been influencing gaming since they appeared - the only difference is that now you have Final Fantasy, this epic quest that constantly railrods you, instead of PONG, which never did. My advice would be to talk to your DM. Make a list - a very short list, like 3 things. Yes, a list of three things that you would like to see in the game. Now that is important: "See in the game". Not "Change" not "Correct". Keep in mind that the DM takes pride in his game - even if you think it sucks. He can get his feelings hurt if you are too harsh. Take that list and sit down with him and let him know that YOU would have more fun if these three things were incorporated. Keep in mind that you may be the only one not having fun. You said that the other players seem to be enjoying themselves, and the DM should be too, since he is running it. Sit down with him one on one and let him know what would be more fun for YOU. If you want more roleplaying situations, tell him. Tell him that you don't like to gloss over certain things like how the party met. Tell him that you don't want the campaign to end if the princess dies. Make sure you bring up good points about his campaign. He is your friend, so treat him like that first, and a DM second when you talk to him,. But talk to him. That's called "giving feedback". That's the only way he'll improve. ** As for you DMing with memory problems with initiative - we use a little dry erase board, with lines drawn on it with a permenant ink pen. I list the initiative order on it, and when someone dies, I wipe their name off. Simple. Another way of making sure that a dead person doens't get a turn is to use minis or figures or counters on the game board for combat, and when the person dies, take thier fig off the board. That way when you can't find the guy who is supposed to act, it's because he is dead. ** Talk to your DM.
Lincoln Hills 09-21-04, 01:52 PM	PROBLEM 1: Every Encounter a Battle, Every Battle to the Death. Walk among the fallen (remember how long it takes to reach -10 hp? Most adversaries aren't immediately smacked to -11+...) and take advantage of your lay on hands to stabilize sentient monsters. Speaking in character, advise these captives that you are sparing their lives. With luck, you'll get the DM thinking along the lines of movies (where mercy is an option) rather than video games (where it isn't)... which is, I think, an improvement. 2) Constant Combat. Under 3.x rules, you gain just as many XP for swaying monsters to your side, scaring them away, or even sneaking around them. From the sound of things, your current DM will immediately announce "no XP!" But if you're consistently doing it anyway, he may find that the story is advancing without as many battles. Point out that every engagement in mortal combat is another risk of the Princess getting Killed and the Campaign being Destroyed, Oh No! 3) The DM's Storyline Is the Only Option. Sometimes this will be inevitable. Winging it is a rare ability (and the d20 system has made it a bit trickier than it was in less rule-intensive days). With that said - whenever you're told that Road X is the only way between Burgerville and the City of Kfc, ask, "Can't we cut overland? Fewer monsters, because they're all sitting along the road waiting to ambush travellers." You can't MAKE the DM prepare alternate options, but when possible, ask about them - sooner or later he'll get the sense that you'd rather HAVE these options. 4) If the Princess Dies, the Campaign is Over and you get No XP. However much you may WANT this annoying princess to die, if she DOES, do a massive melodramatic swearing-of-vengeance. Announce to the DM that now your character's goal in life is the destruction of the princess's "true enemy". WARNING: Do not actually SAY the names "Aeris" or "Sephiroth".
Master Agnald 09-22-04, 12:08 AM	Well, thanks everyone for your advice... I'll keep all this in mind. @archangel: well, I'm not sure if my campaign is worse than yours, as we're still lvl 6... let's wait until we reach lvl 11, then we can compare! Oddly enough, my DM also planned to give the group paladin (me) a Pegasus... apparently he'll give everyone some kind of cool pet... and some speciall not-class-related skills... also a la FF... @Lincoln Hills: No! I don't the princess to die! She's got a vorpal dagger and doesn't get XP for killing things, ( :D ) so we're better off if she's alive... @Phrennzy: Oh, yes, I've seen in the flesh how hard it is to DM... making a challenging yet possible game, give it a plot, but not railroad it, roleplaying thousands of roles... it's sure that a bunch of kids with no experience (like us) won't be doing a very good job at it... but I'll try to talk to him. @Vegeta8472: I don't see that (getting him addicted on Baldur's Gate) happening so soon... his computer is worse than mine... and my computer sucks! @Joe Khol: I see... I'll try to give him constructive criticism... @oldmandm: Lol. You should see how my first experience with D&D was... my first adventure had an old druid hobo who had mushrooms growing on his colthes and we had to fight the evil jewish black dwarves (later on we found out they were being pursued by the nazi elves). It was another DM, BTW, weren't I sure that it only sucked because, well, that guy was stupid, I would never have continued playing D&D...
The_Dark_One 09-22-04, 12:28 AM	Just a thought, but, have you considered smiting the princess yourself (with her own vorpal dagger? until she dies?). Not out of any desire to be malicious or accomplish anything, but just to see the expression on his face? :mymy: :devil:
Master Agnald 09-22-04, 12:49 AM	Hehehe... that would be pretty cool... I'd love to see the look on their faces when the goody-two-shoes paladin girl goes and murders the princess in her sleep. However, I doubt the DM would let me do that... he'd probably make a lightning bolt come down from the sky and hit me for 20d10 damage or something like that... or maybe an ethereal thief that comes outta nowhere to steal the weapon and run away... or maybe some more falling gelatinous cubes... but it'd be a pretty funny scene...
eudas 09-22-04, 12:55 PM	Find a new DM. this one is obviously not up to the task. eudas
Darrett 09-22-04, 02:18 PM	That is pretty sad. In most games there -is- a certain amount of railroading; the DM will often make up a storyline that is the campaign... if you get too far off it, you're likely to miss out on your big opportunities and end up getting swept up in events around you. However, that shouldn't mean the campaign is over. Show your DM this thread and convince him never to DM again, because he really isn't a good DM at all.
MoogleEmpMog 09-22-04, 02:46 PM	As a player, I prefer a strong storyline to "player freedom," and will go along with virtually any plot hook that's not blatantly stupid. As a DM, I expect roughly the same courtesy from my players. The original Dragonlance modules, Tracy Hickman's exercise in creative railroading? Good fun on both sides of the DM screen, IMX. Emphasis on "strong storyline." The storyline you describe isn't strong. It's weak. Hideously weak. NES weak. Fight monsters, save the princess, fight monsters, save the princess... that's not a Final Fantasy plot, it's a Mario plot! :eek: Based on your descriptions, I would suggest to your DM that you try a more dungeon-crawly campaign to kick things off. He needs to work on his plotting. He needs to work on his pacing. He especially needs to work on his transitions. Of course, the number one thing he needs to work on is removing his Mary Sue characters from the game. An NPC you must protect lest dire consequences fall upon you? Okay... docking XP or ending the campaign is extreme, but not out of the question; some missions have to be won, and there are other campaigns to play if you fail. An NPC you must protect despite her having divine (DM) protection and magic items vastly beyond those the PCs can or should have access to? Please. The biggest problem with this campaign isn't the railroading - it's the... I hesitate to call the princess a DMPC (is she?), but she's definitely to much the focus of the DM's attentions. There's no point in playing the game if the DM fully intends to make everything about his favorite character. Incidentally, "hooking" your DM on Baldur's Gate rather than Final Fantasy shouldn't cure him of the desire to create situations where your characters can completely screw up the story and make it impossible to progress in the game; it will just make the story sketchy and bland :D Of course, "sketchy and bland" may be an improvement over "watch my perfect character do everything I want her to, and sometimes have fights."
Cyricist 09-22-04, 07:12 PM	Ok.. totally off topic: I keep reading the header to this thread as: Help!!! Bald DM!! I must be getting old.. :mymy: On topic: a DM cannot take away XP IMO.. That ruins the experience.. and I mean literally.. it's very demotivating. Thus I agree with what most peeps posted here already.. ok that didn't help much did it..
greenwyrm 09-22-04, 10:22 PM	Sounds to me like a classic case of DM being in love with his story.. and hating anything that goes against his idea of where the story should go. With the posters case, I should add the fact of an inexperienced DM, DM not cut out to be a DM, or some combination of both...
Master Agnald 09-23-04, 01:09 AM	@MoogleEmpMog: Mario plot. Lol. I wouldn't actually describe it as a save the princess plot, specially since she kicks more ass than the whole group... she decapitated a minotaur before the whole group could even get their hands on the monster (with the exception of the monk, who decided that jumping on the monster's horns and punching him on the head was a good strategy). And yes, the princess is a DMPC (or as it'd be called in FFT, a "Guest" character)... and if I'm not mistaken, the monster leader, Babu, is some kind of intelligent flesh golem... don't ask. @Cyricist: Lol! I almost fell outta my chair upon reading that... BALD DM??? Priceless... Oh, and I think I've found out why the other players seem interested in it... they're retarded... no, really, they'd spent about 15 minutes tossing the dice for no reason whatsoever, while yelling stupid things (apparently to my friend, screaming: "For the fist of Hextor" or "For Michael Jackson" [don't ask] or "For the balls of Hextor" [don't ask either] gives you some luck for rolling high numbers on the dice), until the DM intervened, while closing the Dm screen: "OK, if that's the case, then I guess we should stop it here, then..." oh, it'd be so easy...
deusxmachina 09-23-04, 02:03 AM	Easiest thing might be to have everyone throw a few bucks in to buy some Dungeon magazines or modules so the DM can see how an adventure should be. Rarely should an adventure have a clause that says everyone is doomed, in some form or another, if you run away from a fight. Short stories don't necessarily make for good adventures, and it sounds like the DM is running a short story.
Shard of Suzail 09-23-04, 01:06 PM	I`ve been running games a long old time. It's a curious thing, the whole railroading subject. I try very hard to give my players freedom and power and they respect that. They sometimes regret it too, as i recall when they successfully killed one major villain on the first encounter and thus skipped an entire scenario (now that was funny, the efforts they took to find out if she was "really dead, or just faking"). The prize quote was "I never expected a lighning bolt to kill her, I just wanted her stunned"). It wasnt D and D, it was a white wolf game called mage the ascension. The lightning bolt actually killed the villain three times over. Some players make their characters so impressive that they actually surprise themselves. Anyway, i digress. I`ve found more and more that if you give players too much direction on some key matters, then the game just breaks down. These days, i find it a lot easier to give players total freedom except at key events in the story. Thus, at some points, they will be captured, or they will decide to split up. Many players actually welcome this, since it helps the story flow in a more natural way and prevents undue argument. I have only once, in all my GM'ing career, seen a group that actually respected the decisions of its leader without question. They were the most powerful and effective group i have ever seen. Likewise, they could get a lot of gaming done in a night. Many people forget that, its fine to discuss a plan before or after it is in progress, but not during. Leaders take responsibility for decisions and people should respect them. Its not, as many players seem to think, a democracy all the time. Theres a fairly good film, called U52 or somesuch, a fictional submarine story that involved recovering an Enigma coding device in world war 2. It has some really good situations and quotes relating to trusting the captain of a ship even when his decisions seem to make no sense or seem flawed. Many players would really benefit from understanding that. To conclude - Yes, player choice is a good thing, but sometimes the GM must remove it totally, or a party leader should do so. Too much or too little choice is a bad thing (which many posters have said previously). *** I was much more interested to see the issue of the princess in the thread and this is perhaps where my post becomes more directly relevant. Most players are unable to protect their colleagues let alone an npc. The fighters wade off into combat leaving weaker members undefended, to claim the glory for themselves, for instance. If you have ever played a computer game where defending an objective or a weak person is involved, you`ll appreciate just how hard it is. There are many ways around this. Players, for example, rarely travel around with weaker npc's, choosing instead to *keep them somewhere safe* like a castle or in a cave nearby. Clear a room, move npc to room and then repeat. Adventuring is, after all, dangerous work, My group alone loses two charaters every three scenarios or so, so a weaker npc really stands no chance, especially in an environment where spells like magic missile dont even need a roll to hit. As has been mentioned by previous posters, computer games tend to make it so that the death of the npc ends the game there and then. If the starship enterprise is wiped out in a game of Starfleet Armada, then its game over, even though the ship may no be mission critical, for instance. Most players, thus, leave the flagship of the entire fleet at home (which makes no real sense in the scheme of things). The costs of failure is a tricky issue. It can be very beneficial for players to understand that, should their ward die, they have lost the scenario. It makes them think with more care and is a good way to test otherwise overpowered or min maxed characters. To lose a campaign is too much, but to have severe immediate consequences is a good idea. Plan for the worst, however, and never assume that your players will actually succeed. Conclusion - Guarding an npc is one of the hardest things you can task a player with, but its a good test for otherwise tough characters. *** To take away XP for a particularly gruelling failure is an interesting idea. Xp is a strange thing indeed. It represents the accumulated skills and abilities of a character over time and usually, if not all the time, it goes up or stays where it is. Its a big incentive for players and messing with it can have major kickback results, for good or ill. Usually, the harshest penalty you can give, is a total wipeout scenario where the players have messed up so badly as to get no xp rewarf whatsoever. Is it right to do this, however? People, after all, learn from mistakes as well as from successes (perhaps they learn more from failure, in fact). Still, in a way, the character will learn even without xp and thus, the next time, they will succeed and earn their share. XP is, for sure, clumsy, but fairly effective as a reflection of learning. To actively remove it though, is something else entirely. For a player to actually go backwards on their xp track is something that I have only ever seen by virtue of a character getting so old as to forget skills that are seldom used. XP is by no means sacred though. a gm is well within his rights to take it away as well as to give it, so it *is* something he can do. The question is, really, is he right to do it? I would say that there is probably one time that xp could be actively taken from a character and that is when it is poorly played. Thus, if anyone spontaneously decided to act against their alignment and execute the princess, thus ruining the campaign, then they should lose a truck load of xp. Better still, kick them out of the group if they are so disruptive. This instance, however, should be so rare as to not been seen in a standard group. Apart from that, i couldnt really justify xp removal from a character even as an advanced GM technique. It seems tempting on the surface, but its just not going to work or do what it is intended to. Conclusion - Only ever take xp from a character when the player messes around. If that happens too much, kick them out. Never move a character backwards on the xp track due to game events, no matter how important. Stopping them going forward for a time is more effective than sending them backwards.
Arak the mighty 09-23-04, 02:18 PM	I`ve found more and more that if you give players too much direction on some key matters, then the game just breaks down. These days, i find it a lot easier to give players total freedom except at key events in the story. Thus, at some points, they will be captured, or they will decide to split up. Many players actually welcome this, since it helps the story flow in a more natural way and prevents undue argument. SPOT ON! I ran a 2 year campaign that I thought would be a grand adventure, I had it really well planned, etc etc etc, and about half way through, I realized I was totally railroading my characters. I had BBEG's that would get killed, but I'd fudge their deaths, because they were integral to MY story later on. Except it's not just MY story, it's everyone's story. My players were feeling cheated when no matter what decisions they made, they'd arrive at MY conclusion. So we switched gears, started over with a group of adventurers who were a lot more free form, and it's going grand. Recently, I had a BBEG who I spent a lot of time creating, had a lot of fun with, had big plans with, and then the Dwarven Fighter with a +2 frost pick (X4 crit), with improved critical did a 58 point hit and totally annihilated the guy. I had planned on this guy getting away and causing more ruckus for my players (the dwarf hit the guy while in a cloud of obscuring mist) but I decided right then to live with the consequences of what had happened. The things you do feel a lot more heroic if you feel like you are actually AFFECTING the story that's happening.