Help Balencing a New Character Idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help Balencing a New Character Idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bizzle7
11-09-06, 08:32 AM Hello to all,

I am a recently a new member of the WOC Community although I have been playing many of there games for many years.

Ok I have a player in one of my games that likes to play as a Human Spelltheif. HE has recently come to me (DM) and ask what would be a fare trade for a Monks unarmored attack bonus. I said “WHAT”. He responded telling me that he was interested in unarmored combat and would like to remain a Spelltheif, with all of their abilites. And get the monks unarmored attack bonus. So no monk abilities all of his abilities would be gained from the Spellthief.

Can someone help me make this fair. What would you suggests to make this a fun balanced char.

Thanks
Cyresss
11-09-06, 09:20 AM Really, taking the improved unarmed strike feat is the only really "fair" thing to allow. Getting the attack bonuses and damage of a monk is a huge boost and the spell thief is designed to make use of all of his abilities. Removing one would severely handicap him. You might let him buy or "find" gloves that give him a boost to his unarmed damage, this with the above feat would let him play a monkish spellthief while taking away from his share of the treasure. If he is low level and can't afford the gloves, you might even have a wizard willing to lease them to him, all the while taking 25% of his treasure for the next year or so.

alternatively you might just have him use his feats to get the unarmed strike and then each successive feat he dedicates to it might give him the next damage dice like a monk. remember, a thief who can sneak attack and steal an ability while appearing to have no weapon in hand is uber-dangerous in RP sessions.

Good luck
Bizzle7
11-09-06, 09:32 AM What if he gave up all weapon prof and mabey other things. I understand where you are comng from with the weapon less theif, but remmeber if he has absolutley no range and then he could barley make god use of the steal spell ability that the Spelltheif is known for... thoughts
Cyresss
11-09-06, 09:52 AM Range is overrated, By flanking the spellthief can sneak attack each round, he has decent HP and while not a front line fighter, can still stand in there if need be. Besides, a high dex will negate the penalty for using a ranged weapon.

It would be fair I guess to take away his other weapons, but not to add the monk damage just for this loss. I mean, eventually he will be dealing far more damage than he ever could with his allowed class weapons.

Remember, a spell thief should be able to sneak attack at least 75% of the time if he is working well with his party. Our spell thief rocks and has never used a bow.

Ultimately it goes like this, If you are happy and he is happy, then giving up other weapons is cool, but he should have to give them up, as in not be able to use them, maybe as an oath or something.

Just my thoughts, I am interested to see what you decide.
Bizzle7
11-09-06, 09:56 AM Well remember I want to keep this fair for all party's here. I dont want him to be a UBER char while the other two members are normal.(total party of 3) DO you think if he never uses a wep then would that be fair to give him the monks damage or do you feel that it is not enough. I would like to see him get it just do not like geving things for free or nothing
Cyresss
11-09-06, 10:03 AM Monk damage scales with level, Weapons don't. this means that he will not have to spend no money to increase his damage while the other characters will have to spend loads to get their enchantments. A simple magic weapon spell will get him past many other creatures DR so this is not a problem for him. Maybe requireing every other feat to be dedicated to unarmed combat would be better?
Bizzle7
11-09-06, 10:10 AM Every other feat could work. I had them start at lvl 3. I do not like to hinder char customzation so I ask, Is there anything else you could see him giveing up. I really like the idea of him sneaking them punching the hell out of the guy.(kinda find it funny) But if it is unbalenced then I wont do it. Can you see any other fare option. What about sacing some higher level spell slots. or a lvl's spells all together?
Cyresss
11-09-06, 10:21 AM If he is confortable a good balance would be that every level where his damage increases he dosen't advance in spell slots. This would mean that he would get physical instead of mystical damage, but some characters would cringe at this advancement. it would put him about 6 or so levels behind in casting ability at 20th level, but with spells not his focus, It would be worth it. I would say that is totally fair.
Bizzle7
11-09-06, 10:44 AM So every lvl he would learn a new would gain new "monk" then he learn no new spells. Or he doesnt get any new spell slots, or both.

So if at lvl four he would learn 1st lvl spells and his damage goes up he doesnt get the spells but he would get the damage. and at fifth lvl he would learn everything he would of at forth lvl???

(little confused)
Cyresss
11-09-06, 10:49 AM So yeah, at level four, he gets all the normal benefits of the spell thief but not the new spells, instead he gets the monk damage. At level five he gets his normal abilities, but uses the table for new spells and spell slots of level 4. Many PrCs use this method for balance. It's like he gets abilities but his "Caster Level" is one behind for every increase in damage.
Bizzle7
11-09-06, 10:53 AM ok I like the sound of that.

so he gives up all of his wep prof(permed with no ability to take feats to use weps), and in turn he gets the monk unarmed dam.

in addtion he anytime he get a bonus to damage, he then would not get any new spells or extra spell slots.

i think i will probley have him to that.

Thnks you very much,

Fellow DnDer Blake
scout989
11-09-06, 10:58 AM You may want to have him check out the feat "Superior Unarmed Strike" in Tome of Battle. It requires IUS, but it then allows unarmed damage to scale like a monk's by level, without taking additional feats. For the cost of 2 feats, he could fight unarmed like a monk.
Cyresss
11-09-06, 11:02 AM Go team!!! Problem Solved.
Frugal
11-09-06, 11:43 AM Yeah, I'd second the vote for superior unarmed strike. If memory serves, it's not quite as good as a monk's unarmed strike but it does still scale and it's a great way to do the mechanics without having to change anything in the class.
kelvinaw273
11-09-06, 12:47 PM I would actually answer him: Train as a Monk.

There are reasons for the flexible multi-classing rules in 3.x, and this is one of them. Taking one level as Monk would gain him just about everything he wants and a whole lot more (of course, he'll lose a level of spellthief and gain a multi-classing penalty if Spellthief or Monk is not his favoured class, but them's the breaks).

I seriously would not rewqork the spellthief, because scaled unarmed damage is one of the Monks primary abilities. You'd have to trade the spells of a spellthief or half their other abilities for it (trading weapon proficiencies is NOT a balanced build). Just make him take a level of Monk instead. If he isn't Lawful, make him role-play gaining some discipline! What he wants is a BIG change, so he should work for it!
Phantem2
11-09-06, 08:40 PM I would actually answer him: Train as a Monk.

There are reasons for the flexible multi-classing rules in 3.x, and this is one of them. Taking one level as Monk would gain him just about everything he wants and a whole lot more (of course, he'll lose a level of spellthief and gain a multi-classing penalty if Spellthief or Monk is not his favoured class, but them's the breaks).

I seriously would not rewqork the spellthief, because scaled unarmed damage is one of the Monks primary abilities. You'd have to trade the spells of a spellthief or half their other abilities for it (trading weapon proficiencies is NOT a balanced build). Just make him take a level of Monk instead. If he isn't Lawful, make him role-play gaining some discipline! What he wants is a BIG change, so he should work for it!

Then get a monks belt. even without the monk lvls it would work it may not be as powerful the superior unarmed feat but it doesnt cost a feat.
Kapalen
11-11-06, 09:28 AM He can eitehr get a monk's belt, or spend two feats. Imp Unarmed Strike from PHB and Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB, which improves unarmed damage, but not hardly as much as a monk(which there's a reason for).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bizzle7 11-09-06, 08:32 AM	Hello to all, I am a recently a new member of the WOC Community although I have been playing many of there games for many years. Ok I have a player in one of my games that likes to play as a Human Spelltheif. HE has recently come to me (DM) and ask what would be a fare trade for a Monks unarmored attack bonus. I said “WHAT”. He responded telling me that he was interested in unarmored combat and would like to remain a Spelltheif, with all of their abilites. And get the monks unarmored attack bonus. So no monk abilities all of his abilities would be gained from the Spellthief. Can someone help me make this fair. What would you suggests to make this a fun balanced char. Thanks
Cyresss 11-09-06, 09:20 AM	Really, taking the improved unarmed strike feat is the only really "fair" thing to allow. Getting the attack bonuses and damage of a monk is a huge boost and the spell thief is designed to make use of all of his abilities. Removing one would severely handicap him. You might let him buy or "find" gloves that give him a boost to his unarmed damage, this with the above feat would let him play a monkish spellthief while taking away from his share of the treasure. If he is low level and can't afford the gloves, you might even have a wizard willing to lease them to him, all the while taking 25% of his treasure for the next year or so. alternatively you might just have him use his feats to get the unarmed strike and then each successive feat he dedicates to it might give him the next damage dice like a monk. remember, a thief who can sneak attack and steal an ability while appearing to have no weapon in hand is uber-dangerous in RP sessions. Good luck
Bizzle7 11-09-06, 09:32 AM	What if he gave up all weapon prof and mabey other things. I understand where you are comng from with the weapon less theif, but remmeber if he has absolutley no range and then he could barley make god use of the steal spell ability that the Spelltheif is known for... thoughts
Cyresss 11-09-06, 09:52 AM	Range is overrated, By flanking the spellthief can sneak attack each round, he has decent HP and while not a front line fighter, can still stand in there if need be. Besides, a high dex will negate the penalty for using a ranged weapon. It would be fair I guess to take away his other weapons, but not to add the monk damage just for this loss. I mean, eventually he will be dealing far more damage than he ever could with his allowed class weapons. Remember, a spell thief should be able to sneak attack at least 75% of the time if he is working well with his party. Our spell thief rocks and has never used a bow. Ultimately it goes like this, If you are happy and he is happy, then giving up other weapons is cool, but he should have to give them up, as in not be able to use them, maybe as an oath or something. Just my thoughts, I am interested to see what you decide.
Bizzle7 11-09-06, 09:56 AM	Well remember I want to keep this fair for all party's here. I dont want him to be a UBER char while the other two members are normal.(total party of 3) DO you think if he never uses a wep then would that be fair to give him the monks damage or do you feel that it is not enough. I would like to see him get it just do not like geving things for free or nothing
Cyresss 11-09-06, 10:03 AM	Monk damage scales with level, Weapons don't. this means that he will not have to spend no money to increase his damage while the other characters will have to spend loads to get their enchantments. A simple magic weapon spell will get him past many other creatures DR so this is not a problem for him. Maybe requireing every other feat to be dedicated to unarmed combat would be better?
Bizzle7 11-09-06, 10:10 AM	Every other feat could work. I had them start at lvl 3. I do not like to hinder char customzation so I ask, Is there anything else you could see him giveing up. I really like the idea of him sneaking them punching the hell out of the guy.(kinda find it funny) But if it is unbalenced then I wont do it. Can you see any other fare option. What about sacing some higher level spell slots. or a lvl's spells all together?
Cyresss 11-09-06, 10:21 AM	If he is confortable a good balance would be that every level where his damage increases he dosen't advance in spell slots. This would mean that he would get physical instead of mystical damage, but some characters would cringe at this advancement. it would put him about 6 or so levels behind in casting ability at 20th level, but with spells not his focus, It would be worth it. I would say that is totally fair.
Bizzle7 11-09-06, 10:44 AM	So every lvl he would learn a new would gain new "monk" then he learn no new spells. Or he doesnt get any new spell slots, or both. So if at lvl four he would learn 1st lvl spells and his damage goes up he doesnt get the spells but he would get the damage. and at fifth lvl he would learn everything he would of at forth lvl??? (little confused)
Cyresss 11-09-06, 10:49 AM	So yeah, at level four, he gets all the normal benefits of the spell thief but not the new spells, instead he gets the monk damage. At level five he gets his normal abilities, but uses the table for new spells and spell slots of level 4. Many PrCs use this method for balance. It's like he gets abilities but his "Caster Level" is one behind for every increase in damage.
Bizzle7 11-09-06, 10:53 AM	ok I like the sound of that. so he gives up all of his wep prof(permed with no ability to take feats to use weps), and in turn he gets the monk unarmed dam. in addtion he anytime he get a bonus to damage, he then would not get any new spells or extra spell slots. i think i will probley have him to that. Thnks you very much, Fellow DnDer Blake
scout989 11-09-06, 10:58 AM	You may want to have him check out the feat "Superior Unarmed Strike" in Tome of Battle. It requires IUS, but it then allows unarmed damage to scale like a monk's by level, without taking additional feats. For the cost of 2 feats, he could fight unarmed like a monk.
Cyresss 11-09-06, 11:02 AM	Go team!!! Problem Solved.
Frugal 11-09-06, 11:43 AM	Yeah, I'd second the vote for superior unarmed strike. If memory serves, it's not quite as good as a monk's unarmed strike but it does still scale and it's a great way to do the mechanics without having to change anything in the class.
kelvinaw273 11-09-06, 12:47 PM	I would actually answer him: Train as a Monk. There are reasons for the flexible multi-classing rules in 3.x, and this is one of them. Taking one level as Monk would gain him just about everything he wants and a whole lot more (of course, he'll lose a level of spellthief and gain a multi-classing penalty if Spellthief or Monk is not his favoured class, but them's the breaks). I seriously would not rewqork the spellthief, because scaled unarmed damage is one of the Monks primary abilities. You'd have to trade the spells of a spellthief or half their other abilities for it (trading weapon proficiencies is NOT a balanced build). Just make him take a level of Monk instead. If he isn't Lawful, make him role-play gaining some discipline! What he wants is a BIG change, so he should work for it!
Phantem2 11-09-06, 08:40 PM	I would actually answer him: Train as a Monk. There are reasons for the flexible multi-classing rules in 3.x, and this is one of them. Taking one level as Monk would gain him just about everything he wants and a whole lot more (of course, he'll lose a level of spellthief and gain a multi-classing penalty if Spellthief or Monk is not his favoured class, but them's the breaks). I seriously would not rewqork the spellthief, because scaled unarmed damage is one of the Monks primary abilities. You'd have to trade the spells of a spellthief or half their other abilities for it (trading weapon proficiencies is NOT a balanced build). Just make him take a level of Monk instead. If he isn't Lawful, make him role-play gaining some discipline! What he wants is a BIG change, so he should work for it! Then get a monks belt. even without the monk lvls it would work it may not be as powerful the superior unarmed feat but it doesnt cost a feat.
Kapalen 11-11-06, 09:28 AM	He can eitehr get a monk's belt, or spend two feats. Imp Unarmed Strike from PHB and Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB, which improves unarmed damage, but not hardly as much as a monk(which there's a reason for).