Help DM useing encumberance vagueness to slaughter PCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help DM useing encumberance vagueness to slaughter PCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MGuild917
08-23-04, 11:55 AM Our DM is well noted locally for being a Party killer, though the current group of players(all long term 10+ years with the group) had learned to adapt and go with it. Though the latest may be a bit too much unless we are actually wrong in the matter.
During saturdays sessions climatic battle(3 lvl 1 pcs, 2 lvl 2 fighters, and a npc barbarian of unknown lvl V. a hag and 7 ghouls which some how even after this we won w/out a casualty) after the main PC Fighter gor 5 points of Str Drain the DM informed us that the check penalty for encumberance affected "all D20 rolls" leading to a -6 to attack rolls for the poor fighter now heavily encumbered and that that is what sage advice was for(the openess for intepretation) since all it says is" ...... carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty)" phb p. 161 This would be clear enough to most of us but unfortuneately for us poor sap players the rules for armor nonproficiency are also under the heading of armor check penalties.
I have looked all morning for an official ruling on this one way or the other and had no luck so now I turn to fellow players, GMs and official WotC personel.
wdarkk
08-23-04, 12:00 PM Stating what he's actually doing might help.

Encumbrance is rather annoying, but not fatally so usually and the items that help with it are cheap above level 5.
MGuild917
08-23-04, 12:08 PM had to fix it went to use (tab) to indent paragraph and sent the post by mistake but is now fixed
Thorak
08-23-04, 02:04 PM 1. Encumbrance adds a check penalty that works identically to armor check penalties, and reduces max dex to AC like armor does. It also reduces the character's speed like armor.

2. It does not stack with armor. You use the worst of either, but they don't add together. Page 161 of the PHB. A character wearing half-plate or full plate, for instance, suffers no additional penalties if he's also carrying a heavy load; the penalties for that are the same as the existing penalties for his armor, and they don't stack.

3. Armor check penalties don't penalize your attack rolls, at all, ever. Therefore, neither do encumbrance check penalties, since they work the same.

So, your DM is either ignorant as to how armor check penalties work (which isn't good, for a DM; understanding the rules is a key factor, especially basic ones like that), or he's cheating. Or he's houseruling and not telling you, which IMHO is cheating.
MGuild917
08-23-04, 02:27 PM that is what we tried explaining, but unfortuneately the armor check penalty applies to all rolls when wearing an armor without the appropriate feat.

if we had always played with the encumberance is like wearing a nonproficient armor then it would be alright but I must agree making that ruling in the middle of a fight is cheating.
Thorak
08-23-04, 02:54 PM Originally posted by MGuild917
that is what we tried explaining, but unfortuneately the armor check penalty applies to all rolls when wearing an armor without the appropriate feat.

if we had always played with the encumberance is like wearing a nonproficient armor then it would be alright but I must agree making that ruling in the middle of a fight is cheating.

Is encumbrance armor? No. Does it have a proficiency? No.

The Armor section is very, very clear. Encumbrance provides an armor check penalty. However, only wearing armor or a shield you're not proficient with causes the armor check penalty to be applied to attacks rolls et al. Is being under a heavy load wearing armor or a shield? No. It doesn't apply. If Encumbrance were meant to also take those penalties, it would be included in that section. It's not, so it doesn't.
Gedrin
08-24-04, 01:17 AM While I can certainly see Str damage/drain rendering a fighter unable to act or even move in extreme cases...

The "climatic battle" is a bad place to announce you've Rule 0'ed something.
Welcome
08-24-04, 05:35 AM Originally posted by Thorak
Is encumbrance armor? No. Does it have a proficiency? No.

The Armor section is very, very clear. Encumbrance provides an armor check penalty. However, only wearing armor or a shield you're not proficient with causes the armor check penalty to be applied to attacks rolls et al. Is being under a heavy load wearing armor or a shield? No. It doesn't apply. If Encumbrance were meant to also take those penalties, it would be included in that section. It's not, so it doesn't.
Maybe their DM also house-tuled in some new feats, like Carry Stuff.

CARRY STUFF [General]
Benefit : When you carry stuff around, the encumbrance penalty for that applies only to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks.
Normal : A character who is carrying stuff without the proficiency applies its encumbrance penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.

Hell, maybe the DM plans to introduce other new feats. Walk comes to mind, or Breathe. "Oh, so you didn't take the Breathe feat at level 1 ? Well, looks like you're dead then. Roll a new character and don't forget important feats this time."

:rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MGuild917 08-23-04, 11:55 AM	Our DM is well noted locally for being a Party killer, though the current group of players(all long term 10+ years with the group) had learned to adapt and go with it. Though the latest may be a bit too much unless we are actually wrong in the matter. During saturdays sessions climatic battle(3 lvl 1 pcs, 2 lvl 2 fighters, and a npc barbarian of unknown lvl V. a hag and 7 ghouls which some how even after this we won w/out a casualty) after the main PC Fighter gor 5 points of Str Drain the DM informed us that the check penalty for encumberance affected "all D20 rolls" leading to a -6 to attack rolls for the poor fighter now heavily encumbered and that that is what sage advice was for(the openess for intepretation) since all it says is" ...... carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty)" phb p. 161 This would be clear enough to most of us but unfortuneately for us poor sap players the rules for armor nonproficiency are also under the heading of armor check penalties. I have looked all morning for an official ruling on this one way or the other and had no luck so now I turn to fellow players, GMs and official WotC personel.
wdarkk 08-23-04, 12:00 PM	Stating what he's actually doing might help. Encumbrance is rather annoying, but not fatally so usually and the items that help with it are cheap above level 5.
MGuild917 08-23-04, 12:08 PM	had to fix it went to use (tab) to indent paragraph and sent the post by mistake but is now fixed
Thorak 08-23-04, 02:04 PM	1. Encumbrance adds a check penalty that works identically to armor check penalties, and reduces max dex to AC like armor does. It also reduces the character's speed like armor. 2. It does not stack with armor. You use the worst of either, but they don't add together. Page 161 of the PHB. A character wearing half-plate or full plate, for instance, suffers no additional penalties if he's also carrying a heavy load; the penalties for that are the same as the existing penalties for his armor, and they don't stack. 3. Armor check penalties don't penalize your attack rolls, at all, ever. Therefore, neither do encumbrance check penalties, since they work the same. So, your DM is either ignorant as to how armor check penalties work (which isn't good, for a DM; understanding the rules is a key factor, especially basic ones like that), or he's cheating. Or he's houseruling and not telling you, which IMHO is cheating.
MGuild917 08-23-04, 02:27 PM	that is what we tried explaining, but unfortuneately the armor check penalty applies to all rolls when wearing an armor without the appropriate feat. if we had always played with the encumberance is like wearing a nonproficient armor then it would be alright but I must agree making that ruling in the middle of a fight is cheating.
Thorak 08-23-04, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by MGuild917 that is what we tried explaining, but unfortuneately the armor check penalty applies to all rolls when wearing an armor without the appropriate feat. if we had always played with the encumberance is like wearing a nonproficient armor then it would be alright but I must agree making that ruling in the middle of a fight is cheating. Is encumbrance armor? No. Does it have a proficiency? No. The Armor section is very, very clear. Encumbrance provides an armor check penalty. However, only wearing armor or a shield you're not proficient with causes the armor check penalty to be applied to attacks rolls et al. Is being under a heavy load wearing armor or a shield? No. It doesn't apply. If Encumbrance were meant to also take those penalties, it would be included in that section. It's not, so it doesn't.
Gedrin 08-24-04, 01:17 AM	While I can certainly see Str damage/drain rendering a fighter unable to act or even move in extreme cases... The "climatic battle" is a bad place to announce you've Rule 0'ed something.
Welcome 08-24-04, 05:35 AM	Originally posted by Thorak Is encumbrance armor? No. Does it have a proficiency? No. The Armor section is very, very clear. Encumbrance provides an armor check penalty. However, only wearing armor or a shield you're not proficient with causes the armor check penalty to be applied to attacks rolls et al. Is being under a heavy load wearing armor or a shield? No. It doesn't apply. If Encumbrance were meant to also take those penalties, it would be included in that section. It's not, so it doesn't. Maybe their DM also house-tuled in some new feats, like Carry Stuff. CARRY STUFF [General] Benefit : When you carry stuff around, the encumbrance penalty for that applies only to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks. Normal : A character who is carrying stuff without the proficiency applies its encumbrance penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride. Hell, maybe the DM plans to introduce other new feats. Walk comes to mind, or Breathe. "Oh, so you didn't take the Breathe feat at level 1 ? Well, looks like you're dead then. Roll a new character and don't forget important feats this time." :rolleyes: