Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elemental_Elf 12-20-05, 01:05 AM	Well my freinds and I are starting a new campaigne and I want to go for Warrior/Mage who LOVES fire or maybe Cold. I was thinking of evetually making the character be a Cleric/Elemental Savant focusing on Fire or Cold BUT I want some opinions before I go head long into this idea. Is the Elemental Savant really that good? Or is he more of a meh class? Would I be better served by going in a different route? Perhaps a Warmage or a Wizard? I love the idea of casting Arcane Spells with armor on, though I know i could just be a WarMage and get that. But I like the idea of a devot Cleric who loves Fire (or Cold), but I also realize that the Cleric has so few Fire spells and virtually no cold spells.... :weep: What should I do?
Coren 12-20-05, 01:12 AM	In my personal opinion, Fighter/Sorc, take still spell as soon as you can. I think that Elemental Savant is a decent class but I think that it has a predictibility problem. Make sure you take Banish or something around those lines for fire immune monsters.
Kheldren 12-20-05, 04:39 AM	Elemental Savant was a decent class under 3.0, under 3.5 it is usually OK, but has been totally crippled in one area! Under 3.5 the Elemental Savant is required to use elemental substitution where possible - so if you run into creatures of your element you have to hope the rest of the party can handle them without your help. Ask your DM if he is prepared to houserule this away - so you keep the choice. If not be very careful with spell selection so you keep force and other spells available for resistant creatures. (Yes there is also one less spellcasting level compared to 3.0, but I consider that reasonable.)
Elemental_Elf 12-20-05, 11:05 AM	My DM is pretty cool about these types of matters, so yeah I'll definitly get him to do that! :D Anyways... Do you think it's a good idea for teh Cleric w/ a Fire Domainn to persue the career of the Elemental Savant? A Fighter Sorcerer may seem great but IMO it's weird. Plus you have to Still Spell all of your spells, so you effectivly have no spells for a begining character, though later on I guess that wouldn't matter.... Still kind of a weird way of going about things.
Deekin 12-20-05, 11:40 AM	There are the Searing heat and Freezing cold feats from Frostburn and sandstorm that allow you to punch through Fire immiunty and cold immuity, also.
ressurrector 12-20-05, 01:50 PM	Even if you can't deal direct damage with your cleric/savant, you still have the full selection of cleric spells. You have all those support spells, the stat boosters, righteous might, healing, etc...
green_yawgmoth 12-20-05, 02:03 PM	I'd say go for a cleric with the war and (element) domains, since you want to be able to cast in armor. You'll be able to cast in armor, and go into melee if need be. And if possible, use the 3.0 version; the 3.5 version got beaten with a lead pipe wrapped in nerf foam. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
20goingon1232 12-20-05, 02:57 PM	I have been trying to see if I can get a Cleric to get into the Air Savant way, and the only thing I can think of is to use Energy Sub and a Fire Domain to get your 3 electricity spells. So, two questions: Is this legal? ESub makes your Fire spells into Electricity spells. Does it count? Is there any way of making a Air Savant Cleric? If so, which Domains would you recommend? Correction: Three questions: Where is the 3.0 version of the ESavant? Tome and Blood?
ressurrector 12-20-05, 03:29 PM	I have been trying to see if I can get a Cleric to get into the Air Savant way, and the only thing I can think of is to use Energy Sub and a Fire Domain to get your 3 electricity spells. So, two questions: Is this legal? ESub makes your Fire spells into Electricity spells. Does it count? Is there any way of making a Air Savant Cleric? If so, which Domains would you recommend? Correction: Three questions: Where is the 3.0 version of the ESavant? Tome and Blood? Well, you could use Esub and use the cold spells from the Spell Compendium. There's plenty of cleric cold spells for some reason.
20goingon1232 12-20-05, 04:41 PM	Air Savant is Electricity, not Cold, unfortunately. Cold is Water.
ressurrector 12-20-05, 05:25 PM	Air Savant is Electricity, not Cold, unfortunately. Cold is Water. I meant using the Cold spells, modified with Esub, to grant the electricity type required. And if you use electricity, you can also use feat: Born of the Three Thunders to deal 1/2 sonic and 1/2 electricity dmg, get around immunities/resistances better.
20goingon1232 12-20-05, 05:30 PM	Fire spells work also with ESub. There are better domains for Fire spells than Cold spells, IIRC. Sun and Metal springs to mind. The great part of Clerics is that their damage spells tend to be non-energy anyway (Divine, unnamed or Sonic, which do not count unless people are allowing ESub Sonic or ESub Divine), and so they are not as affected by the ESavant's greatest drawback. Add to that, 70ft Perfect fly in full platemail and tower shield... That is just too good to pass up...
ressurrector 12-20-05, 05:33 PM	Fire is definitely the domain, it has much better dmg spells, but I was just referring to the cold spells in general. Clerics don't get many fire spells outside of domain spells. You also have to ask your DM about taking a fire domain, and making it an electricity domain through Esub. Especially if you have a deity.
DragonDeadite 12-20-05, 05:38 PM	Also consider taking 2 ESub feats. One for the Savant type you want to be and another to change the element energy you deal once you reach there. You can still apply the ESub feat to your new spells to change them to another type, that way you can still cast two energy style spells in case you run across something that has that one immunity. It's a rather nifty PrC if you play the flavor of it correctly. EDIT: No you cannot use the E-Sub feat to change the fire spells you have into air in order to qualify for the PrC!!!! The feat changes the effects of the spell, not the actual spell! You would still have to have three electricity spells (Lightning bolt, Chain lightning and Shocking Grasp are all good!) plus to E-sub feat.
20goingon1232 12-20-05, 06:02 PM	EDIT: No you cannot use the E-Sub feat to change the fire spells you have into air in order to qualify for the PrC!!!! The feat changes the effects of the spell, not the actual spell! You would still have to have three electricity spells (Lightning bolt, Chain lightning and Shocking Grasp are all good!) plus to E-sub feat. Actually it does. ESub states that it becomes [energy type] spell when you cast it after spontaneously modifying it. So your Scorching Ray becomes [Electricity] not [Fire].
DragonDeadite 12-20-05, 06:19 PM	Actually it does. ESub states that it becomes [energy type] spell when you cast it after spontaneously modifying it. So your Scorching Ray becomes [Electricity] not [Fire]. "When you cast it" is the key word there. Thus until it is cast with the ESub feat applied to it it is still a Fire spell, thus it does not count towards your pre-reqs for the PrC. Sorry dude, you'll never win this one.
20goingon1232 12-20-05, 07:04 PM	All it says in the pre-req is that you can cast 3 spells with the [energy] descriptor, one of which must be 3rd level or higher. I CAN cast those spells.
DragonDeadite 12-21-05, 11:06 AM	So long as they're spells like Lightning Bolt and Shocking Grasp, then sure, you can, but if you're counting your Cone of Cold modified by the ESub Feat, then no... Spells: Able to cast at least three spells that have one of the following descriptors in common: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. One of the spells must be at least 3rd level. You can modify an energy-based spell to use another type of energy instead. Prerequisites: Knowledge(Arcana) 5 ranks, any metamagic feat. Benefit: Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. The spell's descriptor changes to the new energy type-for example, a fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation (cold) spell. Alright, I can see where you think that by just having this feat all your spells are changed, but that's not it. It only changes the spell when cast, not the spell that's in your repitroi. If that was it then EVERY SINGLE energy spell you cast could ONLY be of the energy type you picked for this spell, and that isn't what it says. It says that when you cast it you change the energy type. The spell becomes Modified, it doesn't change the entire spell for all eternity. You need to have the actual spells with the energy descriptor that you want, not have it being modified as it's being cast. Come on dude! Think about it, read it, there's nothing in there that says it changes the original spell, just that it modifies it when cast! You USE the chosen energy type, the spell isn't perminatly changed.
RogerWilco 12-21-05, 01:17 PM	I would agree that the feat gives him the ability to cast (not know) with that energy type. Sounds to me like it's even explicitly worded like that to allow this.
20goingon1232 12-21-05, 03:41 PM	So long as they're spells like Lightning Bolt and Shocking Grasp, then sure, you can, but if you're counting your Cone of Cold modified by the ESub Feat, then no... Alright, I can see where you think that by just having this feat all your spells are changed, but that's not it. It only changes the spell when cast, not the spell that's in your repitroi. If that was it then EVERY SINGLE energy spell you cast could ONLY be of the energy type you picked for this spell, and that isn't what it says. It says that when you cast it you change the energy type. The spell becomes Modified, it doesn't change the entire spell for all eternity. You need to have the actual spells with the energy descriptor that you want, not have it being modified as it's being cast. Come on dude! Think about it, read it, there's nothing in there that says it changes the original spell, just that it modifies it when cast! You USE the chosen energy type, the spell isn't perminatly changed. First, no. It would be turned to that energy type only IF you apply the ESub. If you don't it remains as is... Second, the pre-requisites only state that I need to be ABLE TO CAST spells with that descriptor. It does not say I have to KNOW spells of that descriptor. With ESub, that is taken care of even if all the attack spells I know are Burning Hands, Scorching Ray and Fireball.
ressurrector 12-21-05, 06:57 PM	I would agree that the feat gives him the ability to cast (not know) with that energy type. Sounds to me like it's even explicitly worded like that to allow this. agreed, you don't know the required spells, you only cast them. This however is what the pre-reqs require for an elemental savant, that you can CAST the 3 spells. I would like to point out however that if you're using fire domain to cast lightning spells, you better talk to your DM first, and concider your deity's thoughts on the matter. I think the fire domain under Esub shoul just be concidered a lightning domain, since the lightning domain does not officially exist. You could also discuss creating a new lightning domain, taking the fire domain as a guideline.
DragonDeadite 12-21-05, 07:00 PM	But if you are casting Burning hands it is still a [fire] spell that is changed with the e-sub spell.... fine. Read it however you want to read it but you're reading it wrong. If that's the way you want to read it then someone can have Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt to qualify for becoming an Earth Savant with the E-Sub feat, now tell me how that works? Make sense of it man! Why would you know spells from other schools, and NONE from the energy type you are becoming! That'd be like a fighter taking levels in Archmage all of a sudden, no friggin sense man! You become that element Savant BECAUSE you specialise in that element, not because you want to suddenly start casting spells in that element. It lets you cast all spells as that element not have you completely ignore the spells that are just that element. WIZOs!!! Get in here and straighten this out will you??? PLEASE agree with me!
ressurrector 12-21-05, 07:03 PM	But if you are casting Burning hands it is still a [fire] spell that is changed with the e-sub spell.... fine. Read it however you want to read it but you're reading it wrong. If that's the way you want to read it then someone can have Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt to qualify for becoming an Earth Savant with the E-Sub feat, now tell me how that works? Make sense of it man! Why would you know spells from other schools, and NONE from the energy type you are becoming! That'd be like a fighter taking levels in Archmage all of a sudden, no friggin sense man! You become that element Savant BECAUSE you specialise in that element, not because you want to suddenly start casting spells in that element. It lets you cast all spells as that element not have you completely ignore the spells that are just that element. WIZOs!!! Get in here and straighten this out will you??? PLEASE agree with me! Well, do you cast fireball? or do you cast acidball? If you actually cast them all as acid descriptor spells, I could see convincing someone that you can qualify. Especially if you have some earth spells that aren't dmg dealing, like stonehands, stoneskin, stone to mud, etc... Just think of it as your character only uses the fireball as a template spell, and allways casts it using his chosen element. This is part of what an elemental savant is, you must cast all energy dmg spells as your chosen element. as far as ignoring the spells for the chosen element, for a cleric you only have dmg dealing energy spells for fire/cold, there are NONE for electricity or acid.
20goingon1232 12-21-05, 07:10 PM	But if you are casting Burning hands it is still a [fire] spell that is changed with the e-sub spell.... fine. Read it however you want to read it but you're reading it wrong. If that's the way you want to read it then someone can have Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt to qualify for becoming an Earth Savant with the E-Sub feat, now tell me how that works? Make sense of it man! Why would you know spells from other schools, and NONE from the energy type you are becoming! That'd be like a fighter taking levels in Archmage all of a sudden, no friggin sense man! You become that element Savant BECAUSE you specialise in that element, not because you want to suddenly start casting spells in that element. It lets you cast all spells as that element not have you completely ignore the spells that are just that element. WIZOs!!! Get in here and straighten this out will you??? PLEASE agree with me! There is nothing wrong with this. I cast Fireball as Scintillating Sphere. So what? ESub makes it IRRELEVANT want the base energy type of the spell is. That is why you'd even take ESub to begin with. Hello! Can we please have a reality check here?
ressurrector 12-21-05, 07:15 PM	if you're really so tiqued about this use of Esub, just ask your DM to create new versions of the old spells, same effects, just with a new element. Congrats, now your character KNOWS acidball instead of fireball.
20goingon1232 12-21-05, 07:22 PM	if you're really so tiqued about this use of Esub, just ask your DM to create new versions of the old spells, same effects, just with a new element. Congrats, now your character KNOWS acidball instead of fireball. Actually, that does exist as is. Scintillating Sphere is the Lightning version of Fireball.
ressurrector 12-21-05, 07:26 PM	Actually, that does exist as is. Scintillating Sphere is the Lightning version of Fireball. Where is that from? I have the 3.5 spell compendium, and I haven't seen it. Here's a question: If your character only knows, say, electric spells, why are you using Esub (electricity)?
Elemental_Elf 12-21-05, 09:11 PM	Where is that from? I have the 3.5 spell compendium, and I haven't seen it. Here's a question: If your character only knows, say, electric spells, why are you using Esub (electricity)? Because it is a prereq for the Elemental Savant PrC. So a Cleric/Elemental Savant is a good combo? Or is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Warmage/Wu Jen/Shungenja(if that works?) better? Or would a Cleric/Wizard multiclass into Geomancer be a superior class combo. With that, I could still specialize in a given Element thanx to the Wizard class and eventually wear heavy armor while casting Arcane spells. The down side being that I would mutate into some freak... :weep: ANYWAYS... Y'all think Cleric/Elemental Savant is a good call, seeing as how I want to be a good warrior that speciallizes in an Element? ANYWAYS (again).... Elemental Savant seems to be a class that causes alot of debate... :D
20goingon1232 12-21-05, 09:48 PM	Where is that from? I have the 3.5 spell compendium, and I haven't seen it. Here's a question: If your character only knows, say, electric spells, why are you using Esub (electricity)? It is in one of the splat books. I just can't remember which one. EElf - It was a rhetorical question aimed at DD to show him the illogic of his stance. Personally, if I want ESavant, I'd go full Cle5/ES10/Hei5. But I don't like that combo that much simply because I don't think ES is really that good. I'd play it with a DM that I trust. For DMs that I know are total utter control freaks, I'd play the Warmage/Cle/RS Cheater of Mystra combo just to make him cry.
ressurrector 12-21-05, 10:25 PM	Hei? is that the super-prestiege for clerics like archmage?
DragonDeadite 12-22-05, 10:52 AM	I like the Elemental Savant and I LOVE The E-Sub feat, but to take the ESavant you still have to have three spells that originate as the energy type you want to take as a ESavant, not just any old spells and get it to work. And yes, you could just ask for new spells that automaticaly deal that damage, but the idea of the ESub is versatility, so that one spell can cast two types of energy damage if you want it to, and having multiple ESub multiplies the amount of damage you can deal (As well as the idea of a stone hand changed into a hand of fire is pretty friggin sweet!) Geomancer is a cool PrC too, but going Cleric/ESavant would probably be enough for the DM to start thinking twice about the kind of game he's running. ;)
20goingon1232 12-22-05, 09:01 PM	I like the Elemental Savant and I LOVE The E-Sub feat, but to take the ESavant you still have to have three spells that originate as the energy type you want to take as a ESavant, not just any old spells and get it to work. And yes, you could just ask for new spells that automaticaly deal that damage, but the idea of the ESub is versatility, so that one spell can cast two types of energy damage if you want it to, and having multiple ESub multiplies the amount of damage you can deal (As well as the idea of a stone hand changed into a hand of fire is pretty friggin sweet!) Geomancer is a cool PrC too, but going Cleric/ESavant would probably be enough for the DM to start thinking twice about the kind of game he's running. ;) I think you are mixing up EAdmixture with ESub, dude. ESub don't multiply damage. EAdmix does. Ressurrector - Hei = Heirophant. Archmage wannabe for Clerics in the DMG but way underpowered except for 1 area = You don't need to sacrifice spellslots for its powers.
ressurrector 12-22-05, 09:13 PM	Ressurrector - Hei = Heirophant. Archmage wannabe for Clerics in the DMG but way underpowered except for 1 area = You don't need to sacrifice spellslots for its powers. Sounds like it might be worthwile to take lvels in then. Pretty much all clerics get are spells anyways (except for turn undead) So is there any downside to taking levels of Heirophant? Additionally, if the DM decrees that the pre-requisite spells must have the specific energy descriptor to begin with, that means that clerics can only be fire/cold savants, possibly earth savants. Clerics get NO electricity spells that I've noticed, not even in domains. [edit] I've been thinking of making a cleric/savant myself for a 3rd level PoR campaign. Thinking of using race: air genasi if the DM allows me to become an electricity savant with a cleric. Possibly I'll ask him for new versions of spells, or just bite it and be a fire savant/fire genasi (though I really prefer lightning, for born of the 3 thunders).
DragonDeadite 12-22-05, 11:35 PM	I think you are mixing up EAdmixture with ESub, dude. ESub don't multiply damage. EAdmix does. Meant Multiply as in the more kinds of energy damage you can possibly do, not multiplying the damage one spell cast can deal. :cool: Having two ESub feats (Acid and Cold) means you can cast three kinds of fireballs (Fireball, Acidball, and Freezeball) If you want your cleric to go ESavant then most certainly ask your DM if you can make some new spells. It's fairly simple to change Burning Hands to Auril's Hand (Same spell, but cold damage) or to something along the lines of Jedi Lightning Trick... oh come on, that's what it would look like!! I bet the DM would be cool with that really. If you want support for doing this check out some of the Dragon mags that have to do with the Elements, they change the spells around like that regularly.
Demonfey 12-23-05, 12:21 AM	Let's see, what would you prefer-the ability to fly around in full plate just because you're an elemental? The lack of rigidity of water? Or maybe to be lightning itself, considering that the 3.5 version would allow for some strange kinds of elemental savants, such as metal, bone, wood, and blood, if I remember right. It even mentions them in the book.
ressurrector 12-23-05, 12:53 AM	Let's see, what would you prefer-the ability to fly around in full plate just because you're an elemental? The lack of rigidity of water? Or maybe to be lightning itself, considering that the 3.5 version would allow for some strange kinds of elemental savants, such as metal, bone, wood, and blood, if I remember right. It even mentions them in the book. it dosen't mention them specifically in Complete Arcane, though it would be pretty dang fun to play an Esavant for Bone/Blood/Metal, or possibly even a Holy/Unholy Esavant.
Demonfey 12-23-05, 02:48 AM	Under adaptations, it mentions a few kinds of savants that are different. It doesn't give stats or anything like that, but it's there.
20goingon1232 12-23-05, 03:04 AM	Sounds like it might be worthwile to take lvels in then. Pretty much all clerics get are spells anyways (except for turn undead) So is there any downside to taking levels of Heirophant? You don't get spellslots, just caster level.