Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fanged Fremont 08-22-05, 03:12 PM	The Rule: Natural 1 on an attack roll means you lose the rest of you attacks that round and the next and can only take move actions next round. No saving throw. Nothing. I talked to him about this but he loves it. He says it's in the book which it's not. I showed him the reflex save DC 15 to stop from dropping your weapon, which I think is bunk but it's better than losing 2 rounds of attacks for a melee oriented character like myself. He thinks dropping you're weapon is silly. I talked to him about how a level 20 fighter with 4 attacks due to BAB, and 3 more for greater two weapon fighting, will spend statistically roll a 1 every 3 rounds, thus spending about 1.5 out of 4 round unable to attack where a first level commoner picking up a sword for the first time will only spend 2 of 20 rounds unable to attack. He justifies this with the fact that a commoner takes a penalty to hit for wielding a sword. I change the exampe to a 1st level fighter. He justifies it by the fighter not being able to hit the 20th level fighter. So help me Obiwan Kenobi, you're my only hope. The only way I think I can talk him out of it is to show 2 examples of fighters of the same level and have the 2handed sword wielder beat the crap out of the guy with a bazillion attacks because the guy with the bazillion attacks spends so much time unable use any of his bazillion attacks.
tharivol266 08-22-05, 03:23 PM	the second turn inability is sheer bs but the losing the rest of ur attacks when u get a 1 is better than say what my dm does by having the attack hit u
Scion of Coldshard 08-22-05, 03:25 PM	If he doesnt mind a 20th level fighter fumbling 4x as often as a 1st level fighter then I dont think there is much hope ;/ If he doesnt care that it makes twf an even weaker choice than it already is then there also probably isnt much hope. I was in a game like this once and I decided that the only thing to do was to be a spellcaster who didnt worry about attacks or to get a guy who only used one attack or so a round even at higher levels. So I got myself a halfogre warhulk and a few specialty feats with the eventual goal of another prc.. max of 2 attacks a round, but the same attack applied to a lot of targets for a ton of damage ;) Maybe if you tell him that these rules really push for very specific builds instead of allowing more options it would help? It really seems like it is in the characters best option to 'not' attack and I find that very odd. When it is literally better to make a mobility focused guy and provoke a ton of aoo's than to make your own full attack something is 'seriously' wrong with the game.
Murrdox 08-22-05, 04:17 PM	Point out the example of what happens to a Great Wyrm Red Dragon who rolls a "1" on his bite. For the next 2 rounds, you're saying that dragon can't claw, beat with it's wings, swipe with his tail, or anything? This is almost as bad as being "Stunned", which is one of the worst status effects there is, besides being Paralyzed. Ask him what happens when a Wizard rolls a "1" on his Melf's Acid Arrow attack. Finally - as a PLAYER - get together with the other Players in your group. Do they hate this house rule as much as you do? If you all hate the house rule, then talk to the DM as a group. Point out to him that first of all, it is a HOUSE RULE, there is no such rule as this in the Players Guide or the DM's Guide. Then secondly, as a group, tell him you guys do not LIKE the rule, and want him to change it. House Rules by definition are rules of the HOUSE, not of the DM. Only a bad DM would institute a House Rule that all the players disagreed with. As a DM, if he steadfastly refuses to give up his House Rule - then just say "Okay then, we don't want you to DM anymore, let's give "player X" a chance to DM instead."
JadeSpider9643 08-22-05, 04:39 PM	have you tried hitting him with things? like rocks? it's worth looking into.
Twisted Puppy 08-22-05, 04:46 PM	While I'm a fan of fumble rules, I must say that the OP's DM is a bit harsh. There should at least be a reflex save, or confirmation (a miss on the confirmation roll = fumble), or SOMETHING that gives the player a chance to avoid the second round penalties. I use a "1" is a fumble, Reflex Save DC 10 to hold on to the weapon. If you make the save, you just lose all your remaining attacks in that round (regrip, pull it out of the tree you hit, whatever seems appropriate). No additional penalties. IMC we had an archery-based fighter roll a "1". Confirmation roll: another "1." "OK, one more roll." Third consecutive "1." Had no choice at all. "Your bow just broke." I believe that die went into the circular file. As to the dragon, I believe the rules state clearly that it is not possible to fumble with a natural weapon.
Phrennzy 08-22-05, 05:00 PM	Point out the example of what happens to a Great Wyrm Red Dragon who rolls a "1" on his bite. For the next 2 rounds, you're saying that dragon can't claw, beat with it's wings, swipe with his tail, or anything? This is almost as bad as being "Stunned", which is one of the worst status effects there is, besides being Paralyzed. Ask him what happens when a Wizard rolls a "1" on his Melf's Acid Arrow attack. Finally - as a PLAYER - get together with the other Players in your group. Do they hate this house rule as much as you do? If you all hate the house rule, then talk to the DM as a group. Point out to him that first of all, it is a HOUSE RULE, there is no such rule as this in the Players Guide or the DM's Guide. Then secondly, as a group, tell him you guys do not LIKE the rule, and want him to change it. House Rules by definition are rules of the HOUSE, not of the DM. Only a bad DM would institute a House Rule that all the players disagreed with. As a DM, if he steadfastly refuses to give up his House Rule - then just say "Okay then, we don't want you to DM anymore, let's give "player X" a chance to DM instead." I second all of this 1 Billion Percent. Which I know is normally impossible, but I house ruled it that all things are now made of 1 billion parts. Unless you roll a 1, in which case you are only made of 3 parts, for the next 2 rounds. Its in the book. Serious.
Fanged Fremont 08-22-05, 05:14 PM	anyone know where I can get some D20's with no 1's and two 10's? If they're 10's I don't feel like cheating since I'm just increasing the odds of getting an average score while obliterating the odds of being cheated by my DM.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-22-05, 05:18 PM	Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, etc. If he is using this rule for you and for foes then it all evens out in the end.... if any thing it puts more presure on him to arange combat with foes who dont have big hariy-scary alpha-strikes who could murder you before you even act if you fumble at the beggining of combat. This is BETTER for players than most fumble rules as it screws monsters over more than "dropped weapons" or "self hits". If a dragon fumbles thats a round and a half where your not getting murderafied. If you where using a "drops held weapons" or "hits it self" then the dragon would more than likeley never be subject to any of those and even if you used the later in a very liberal sense that would make a dragon tial wip and claw itsself (stupid i know) its never going to hurt it self with its most dangerous wepons, spells and breath weapons. So your actualy better off with that rule although it seems your not when you fall foul of it your self.
SodaGuy 08-22-05, 05:25 PM	Just switch over to a spellcaster until he find a way to nerf that.
Fanged Fremont 08-22-05, 05:48 PM	Just switch over to a spellcaster until he find a way to nerf that. 1's for spellcasters means backfire. Fireball IN YOUR FACE. As a result we don't cast spells that require attack rolls much.
Ogmug 08-22-05, 05:56 PM	Switch over to a skill bard. You can't fumble on a skill LOL Then simply talk your way out of every encounter. A defeated encounter is a defeated encounter, no matter what way you look at it. He will soon get tired of you just talking your way out of everything.
Salla 08-22-05, 06:01 PM	1's for spellcasters means backfire. Fireball IN YOUR FACE. As a result we don't cast spells that require attack rolls much. Fireballs don't require attack rolls, so there shouldn't be a problem here. Of course, your DM is beneath slime molds on the evolutionary scale, so all bets are off on what is or isn't a problem. Seriously, get together with the other players and, if they feel the same way you do, all of you sign a declaration that says you aren't playing anymore until that rule is removed. A DM without players isn't a DM.
Salla 08-22-05, 06:05 PM	Switch over to a skill bard. You can't fumble on a skill LOL Then simply talk your way out of every encounter. A defeated encounter is a defeated encounter, no matter what way you look at it. He will soon get tired of you just talking your way out of everything. Two problems with that theory. From the sounds of things, this DM will make you fumble on a skill check, because he needs to be shot in the face with Mjolnir. I'm waiting to hear about the critical failures for the characters eating. "Sorry, you rolled a one, you missed your mouth and drove your fork into your eye. Now you're blind AND hungry." Diplomacy takes a full minute, and the target must still be willing to listen in the first place, so you can't just talk your way out of everything. If someone is dead set against listening to you, doesn't matter what your Diplomacy check is.
pres_man 08-22-05, 06:09 PM	Yes, become a spellcaster and only use spells that do not require attack rolls (area effects, enchantments, illusions, magic missiles, etc.)
Angus Cotton 08-22-05, 06:17 PM	A few other options with this DM: 1) Talk to the DM and tell him this rule really is ruining the game for you. But don't ask him to revoke his rule, rather ask him if you can get a feat or design one or have him design one that doesn't fumble so much. 2) Have the wizard enchant you a weapon or two that doesnt fumble at all, even on unmodified '1's (hey they have them in Rolemaster and MERP). 3) use this to your advantage and metagame to hose over his monsters. For example, go out and find a monster with lots of attacks per round and a CR twice your parties level. Throw up a wall of force up around the fighter and have him go in and tank it. When the mob statistically and inevitably rolls a 1, have the party move in for the kill. Exploit the fact the mob gets 2 rounds of no attacks, then move out of the threatened area, and reset up the wall of force, repeat, repeat, repeat till dead, demand your xp. And, yes, I can see holes in this strategy, but you get the idea I hope.
Fanged Fremont 08-22-05, 06:59 PM	A few other options with this DM: 3) use this to your advantage and metagame to hose over his monsters. For example, go out and find a monster with lots of attacks per round and a CR twice your parties level. Throw up a wall of force up around the fighter and have him go in and tank it. When the mob statistically and inevitably rolls a 1, have the party move in for the kill. Exploit the fact the mob gets 2 rounds of no attacks, then move out of the threatened area, and reset up the wall of force, repeat, repeat, repeat till dead, demand your xp. And, yes, I can see holes in this strategy, but you get the idea I hope. If we could get past it's DR and AC, I'd vote for going against a Hecatonchirie (Sp?). They have like a 100 attacks a round. I wonder how many levels we'd get for slaying that thing.
Angus Cotton 08-22-05, 07:17 PM	If we could get past it's DR and AC, I'd vote for going against a Hecatonchirie (Sp?). They have like a 100 attacks a round. I wonder how many levels we'd get for slaying that thing. Holy smokes, I never even thought of that! Good job!
Mind Rogue 08-22-05, 07:33 PM	If the other players dislike the rule, banding together with them and vetoing the DM is probably your best bet. Aside from that, you can always sit on the far end of the table so he can't see your rolls. That way, if he asks, you can always say you rolled a 2. Otherwise, your only option really is to try to get some retribution. Take maters into your own hands and encourage your party to go out of their way to fight dragons or hydras or other monsters with lots of attacks (and get appropriate protections). Then, once the monster hopefully gets a fumble before you guys do, ruining it, you can say, "see, that's how bad that rule is." At least my DM only has a provoke and AoO for fumbling, although I get the short stick on that (Druid with wild shape). Alternatively, build off of it so that it doesn't hamper you as badly. Rather than going twf, pick up a two handed weapon and use ride by attack or spring attack, where you only get one attack anyway. Now, perhaps I can convince my own DM to get rid of his other fumble rules, like the autofailure (and worse) for skill checks (never mind that I have a +11 in spot, or +19 when in Eagle form, meaning that the lowest I could actually get is a 20), saves (the rogue critically failed against a disease and he had her be paralyzed, and later against heatstroke, so she took permanent Con damage), and just about everything else. At least as soon as I hit the next level, I can get back for his "giant 5-ft step" by turning into something big.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-22-05, 07:39 PM	the second turn inability is sheer bs but the losing the rest of ur attacks when u get a 1 is better than say what my dm does by having the attack hit u You. Y O U I can forgive the other grammatical and syntax errors in your post, lord knows we all make them. But it's "you", not "u". If you type like you are eight, we will treat you like you're eight.
Jaime_Wolf 08-22-05, 10:15 PM	Killing epic monsters is ALWAYS a good way to prove to your DM that his rules are messed up. Also, I could see for REALISM purposes (DEFINITELY not for in-game purposes) that using more than one weapon could make you more likely to fumble, misaim, whatever. Perhaps even that you're more likely to fumble at higher levels due to more attacks without TWF (though I think that's covered in the lowering attack bonus of them already). However, making spells "fumble" is ridiculous. What that means is that a 1st level wizard is just as likely to have a spell backfire at him as an epic spellcaster casting a cantrip. That is just wrong. Now, in my game, and in the game I play in we DON'T use fumble rules. Fumbling is part of combat, hence why it's harder to hit with more than one weapon, why iterative attacks aren't as accurate. I've heard people whine about how ridiculous it is that it's ridiculous for a low-level character to only get one attack in a round (6 seconds). You have to take into account that an attack in D&D terms is a time in combat where could could POSSIBLY slip in a successful attack. There's been questions of parrying with weapons as well, what do you think your dexterity modifier is? You have to keep in mind that the characters are not standing still taking turns poking once or twice (though it is actually taking turns, mostly for simplicity's sake, if you've ever played a game where everything is assumed to happen simultaneously you know the headache, "I died, but did I still have time to do something that round?"), they've lunging, parrying, dodging, missing, and attacking for most of the time of combat, it's just that the majority of those attacks won't have even a chance at making it through the enemy's guard, the amount of attacks you get represents your skill at making or finding opportunies to score an actual hit. Therefore, a duelist's parrying is more of a "wow, you're REALLY good at parrying, so much so that it affects even their best attempts to get at you" than an "Amazing! You can actually move your blade in the way of theirs." Along this same line or reasoning, it can be assumed that within those 6 seconds are sort of "minifumbles" just as there are already normal parries without rules to represent them, and feinting is sort of a big uber-feint as you're already both assumed to be feinting.
Samusic 08-23-05, 12:59 AM	I don't mind critical fumbles, but mostly because I think my DM has some good rules for them. He has this chart it looks like he bought with percentages. Everytime we roll a 1 he has us roll a percentile, and something happens based on that. Now, I don't know what all can happen. I do know that sometimes you can drop your weapon and sometimes you just miss your attack. In this way, really bad stuff doesn't happen very often at all. We're all about 7th level, now, and we've not had anything horrible happen from rolling a 1.
The_Bodyguard 08-23-05, 01:54 AM	IMC when we make a critical fumble we provoke AOO's from the surrounding NPC's. I find that to be a very good way to handle it. As for spells and ranged, spells backfire for half and ranged your quiver will usually break off or you will over shoot. Or something of that nature.
Abulafia 08-23-05, 12:51 PM	Every DM goes through a critical fumble phase. It's like acne. Most of us eventually grow out of it. If you are accurately describing your DM's rule, it is plainly moronic. My guess is he never bothered to read the rules for combat, and takes perverse joy in watching his players screw up. I mean, crit failure on a Fireball? How does that even happen? You don't roll anything when you cast the spell! He's really beyond talking to at this point -- the rule is obviously dumb. Find someone else to DM.
eudas 08-23-05, 02:12 PM	perfectly said, abulafia. eudas
IceFractal 08-23-05, 03:29 PM	Be a Necromancer with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat. Then use exclusively negative energy spells. When they backfire, they heal you. So it's good either way.
Loopy 08-23-05, 03:49 PM	A reflex save 15 is stupid. It penalizes people with a low reflex save too much. Of course, losing an action is stupid, too, because it is far too amorphos. There should be a specific penalty, if any penalty, for the rolling of a "1." He should roll on a random table of specific events each with their own penalties.
Yak of Darkness 08-23-05, 03:54 PM	I'm kinda curious as to what the DM thinks a fumbling meleeist is actually doing for the about nine seconds he's not acting. You can pick up a dropped weapon quicker than that. You can rearrange your grip on a weapon quicker than that. You can rearrange your grip on a weapon in a locked bloody gauntlet quicker than that. This rule pushes the boundaries of abstraction to the point where, even in D&D combat, you have to say, "that just doesn't make any damn sense."
Elemental 08-23-05, 04:09 PM	I'd give this example. "On the one hand, we have Elfis, the Level 20 Elf Ranger with a total DEX of 30, who's taken every two-weapon fighting feat there is, and Weapon Finesse, with two +5 short swords, using his Boots of Speed. On the other hand, we have Nobby, the level 1 halfling commoner with STR 4 wielding a Dwarven Waraxe he's not proficient in." In a single round, Elfis is seven times more likely to cripple himself than Nobby. On average, Elfis will be fumbling horribly once every eighteen seconds of swordfighting. How in the nine hells is that realistic?!" And when he ignores it, take the hammergun approach. Then organise a player rebellion and take over the GM's seat.
Fanged Fremont 08-23-05, 04:44 PM	First off, our DM is in his mid 30's, or atleast thats what he looks like, I never asked. He has no concept of the rules and mainly relies on a pompous idiot who thinks he knows the rules. Pompous Idiot: Attacks of Opportunity don't provoke attacks of opportunity Me: Yes they do. If you have combat reflexes you can make a crazy chain of them. Pompous Idiot: No you can't Me: Show me where it says that Pompous Idiot: No because you don't want me to prove that you're wrong. (I've never been wrong. I may not have known the full rule, but I've always pointed out when they were doing something wrong and we should consult the book.) The fireball thing I mentioned was just the first spell that came to mind. I haven't seen anyone roll a 1 on a spell yet but I can only assume that he uses a backfire like rule seeing what he does to magic items. One of which caused a fireball like phenominon IN OUR FACES. We're playing a bunch of half orc savages on a jungle island. We have a very limited amount of spells. One of which is "see shiny" or rather 'detect magic'. Whenever we find a shiny and use it, we have to roll percentile to see what happens. Something bad happens 90 percent of the time. Our druid like character found a shiny stick. The last time he hit something with it he created a 50x50x50 cube of thorns. Not a wall. A cube. To further prove that the DM doesn't know the rules, the druid characters could use pass without trace (or whatever that pass through underbrush & thorns ability) to get out even though the thorns were magic. Luckily we had a 15 foot half giant in the group that made a nice path for us after loosing most of his health. Same druid, uses a shiny spear. Electricutes himself. Multiple times in a row. A warrior like druid who finds a triple flail. He electricutes himself and everything adjacent to him. It was a disruption flail... even though disruption is not extra damage but rather a DC14 will save on undead to kill them outright... Flaming weapons don't add 1d6, they add d10's, the number of which is at the DM's discretion, which isn't so bad, until you get burned for 3d10 fire damage. I was ironically given an inteligent chaotic evil orcbane greatsword which I can somehow wield as a one handed weapon at no penalty, gives me 1 rage a day, and deals 3d10 extra damage to orc and orc like creatures. I stick with my returning handaxes which I have yet to hit myself with... yet. I don't need my crimson black firey blade of hate me to bathe in my or my friend's blood. Also, 1's seem to definately be failure no matter how many skill points you have. I'm working towards exemplar so I can take 10 on as many things as possible without worrying about being distracted by a butterfly for rolling 1 on a spot check or falling on my ass while tumbling despite my +15 to tumble. I'm going to mention the Hecatonchirie thing and how it will statistically lose 180 attacks every 2 rounds. I only play with this guy because he's the only DM around who plays regularly. Which isn't saying much for him seeing how he pulls everything out of his ass with random encounters. Every night is basically 3 random encounters while trecking through the jungle punctuated by bickering and plan discussion which nobody follows or doesn't work because the DM doesn't want us to succeed. In 2 more months I'll have 2 other DM's to play with, that and I'll probably do my own game. Not much longer now, Fremont. You can hold out til then. I wonder if this would be better served in the stickied thread...
Fanged Fremont 08-23-05, 04:47 PM	I'd give this example. "On the one hand, we have Elfis, the Level 20 Elf Ranger with a total DEX of 30, who's taken every two-weapon fighting feat there is, and Weapon Finesse, with two +5 short swords, using his Boots of Speed. On the other hand, we have Nobby, the level 1 halfling commoner with STR 4 wielding a Dwarven Waraxe he's not proficient in." In a single round, Elfis is seven times more likely to cripple himself than Nobby. On average, Elfis will be fumbling horribly once every eighteen seconds of swordfighting. How in the nine hells is that realistic?!" And when he ignores it, take the hammergun approach. Then organise a player rebellion and take over the GM's seat. "Yes but what are the chances the halfling will hit hit Elfis seeing how he takes a penalty to hit? See? It's balanced. You should stop worrying about it and have fun."
Thesen 08-23-05, 09:45 PM	In my game the rule is this: If you roll a 1 you automatically miss and incur an attack of oppurunity. Everyone likes the rule and it works rather well. Getting hit by your own weapon or loosing multiple attacks is silly.
Votan 08-23-05, 10:25 PM	In my game the rule is this: If you roll a 1 you automatically miss and incur an attack of oppurunity. Everyone likes the rule and it works rather well. Getting hit by your own weapon or loosing multiple attacks is silly. I liek this rule but I'd add a DC 15 reflex save to avoid the AoO. That way fast and skillful characters are less likely to end up getting hit with an AoO but, as you can always roll a "1", there is still soem risk. Reflex is botht eh most logical save and the one that could sue another benefit as well.
Teydyn 08-24-05, 05:11 AM	ANY fumble rule for melee is a bad idea, UNLESS the spellcaster get something similar. And even then it should just be something mild, maybe funny. Luckily the groups i played in lately did have NO crumpy fumble rules. Gotta love it :)
Clawhound 08-24-05, 11:47 AM	Yes, spellcasters need fumbles too. I know of no good fumble rules. For instance, how many fumble rules account for the bonus on the weapon, weapon focus feats, defensive fighting, etc? None. How many classes get abilities to lower their risk of fumbles? None. What feats can you take to minimize fumbles? None. When I took over my group, I dropped fumbles. Nobody notices. No one has ever asked for them. A "1" is just a miss, which, in most deadly combats is punishment enough.
Abulafia 08-24-05, 12:20 PM	Frankly, I'm not that crazy about the automatic misses & hits from 1's and 20's. In my game, 20's that aren't already hits are rolled again, and the result+20 is added to the attack roll; 1's that aren't already misses are rolled again, and the result is subtracted from the attack roll. I have DM'd for 11-12 different players since I started this rule two years ago, and every one of them has loved it. Fumbles, in my experience, do not add anything to the game. They are just a DM's way of reminding players that he owns them. And to the sadistic DM's out there I say: guys, there are much better ways of doing this. Isn't everyone better served if you spend your time devising tougher encounters and fiendish villains, rather than worrying about which body part a player should stab himself in when he rolls a 1 on his attack roll?
Phrennzy 08-24-05, 01:59 PM	In our game, you have to confirm the 1. It's a miss, and you roll again. If you miss this second time, you provoke an AoO from whoever you are attacking. If you are using a ranged weapon, you drop the weapon. If it's a spell, well, you've just lost the spell, so that sucks enough.
Twisted Puppy 08-24-05, 02:16 PM	I agree that a 20th level fighter should be more likely to fumble than a commoner. For the most part, the Reflex save DC 10 addresses that. IMC, I think I will change roll of "1" from causing all subsequent attacks in that round to be lost to losing only the next attack in sequence on a successful save (Ref DC 10). If the two-weapon wielding fighter rolls a "1" on his seventh attack, he loses nothing. A "1" on the Reflex save will result in dropped weapon, or broken bow string, etc. Fumbles, in my experience, do not add anything to the game. ? Sorry that you've never had the experience. It takes a bit of creativity on the part of the DM and a mature player. IMC, the elven rogue/duelist was fighting a wizard in a web. Rolled consecutive "1"s on attack roll and reflex save. "OK, you lose your grip on the rapier. Roll a d10 to see what direction it goes, and a d6 for distance. 1-3 is 5 ft, 4-6 is 10. It can't go more than that in the web." The rapier ended up right next to the opponent, who on his next action picked it up, said "Thanks!" and teleported away. Getting the silly thing back became part of the adventure. The player was thrilled, as it gave the character something to work for. The character, of course, was verily pisseth. Especially with the offers from other party members of some halfling daggers that might be easier to hold on to. :D They are just a DM's way of reminding players that he owns them. To me, more of a way to remind them that Murphy is always out there. Besides, isn't overcoming adversity the stuff that heroes are made of? Tales are not told of those battles that went perfectly. Tales are told of the warrior who, in spite of breaking his sword in the first ten seconds of battle, still prevailed. (BTW, such an instance is, IMO, worthy of some bonus XP.) And to the sadistic DM's out there I say: guys, there are much better ways of doing this. Isn't everyone better served if you spend your time devising tougher encounters and fiendish villains, rather than worrying about which body part a player should stab himself in when he rolls a 1 on his attack roll? Actually, I'm not interested in showing the players that I "own" them. It's a cooperative game. I suppose a lot of my attitude about fumbles comes from the fact that the first serious roleplaying I did since college was with the CyberPunk 2020 system. That system has a 1 in 10 chance for a fumble on every roll. Sometimes just a botch (1-4 on a d10), sometimes something catastrophic. The table DOES include harming yourself or a friend, or a weapon jamming. Once my character was trying to render first aid to a gunshot victim, and I fumbled the (Tech - First Aid) roll. The result of the fumble check was, "You have damaged the device or item beyond any hope of repair." Yep, tried to render first aid and killed them. As for D&D, I don't like to have written in stone that there is X chance that a player will wound himself or a party member on a fumble. If it's appropriate - say the "1" comes on firing into melee with a bow, or striking an opponent that is grappling with a party member, then it's a possibility. The key is making what happens appropriate, and if it makes sense to the players they will probably go along. There should also be the possiblity that the fumble has only a very minor effect: in the case of a fighter, he tried something and it simply didn't work. That happens. Which is why I agree with the OP on this thread that the fumble rules he cited are overly harsh. Obviously, a lot of people will say, "You can't just decide this happens on the fly." Well, yes, you can, as long as it isn't something you abuse. It's like cayenne pepper: a very little bit will go a long way, and just a little too much will ruin the dish.
Corinthians 08-24-05, 02:34 PM	You. Y O U I can forgive the other grammatical and syntax errors in your post, lord knows we all make them. But it's "you", not "u". If you type like you are eight, we will treat you like you're eight. Hey thanks for keeping this on topic.
Abulafia 08-24-05, 03:21 PM	We're going to have to agree to disagree, Puppy. Some people enjoy it when their character screws up, some people don't. In my experience, fumble rules tend to be implemented by sadistic DMs who play with a me-vs-them mentality, but it's perfectly possible for players to want more randomness in their games. I played a lot of Cyberpunk 2020 years ago as well. It's funny how shared experiences can result in different outlooks -- the crappy auto-fail rules in that game created my instinctual distrust of all things fumble. When Steve Jackson writes his memoirs, I hope he has a chapter titled "When Simply Failing Isn't Disastrous Enough -- Why World-Class Gymnasts Should Kill Themselves Trying To Tie Their Shoes."
AlphaSquirell 08-24-05, 04:52 PM	Hmmm. Multiclass! Gain any possible ability you can that allows you to attack without using a weapon. (in short, avoid the possibility of a critical fumble at all) And, encourage you're friends to do this as well. (even if they only half try, just to get the point across) We did this to our DM. (we hit a major trap in one mission, were attacked while dealing with it, barely survived, and thus, we make listen, spot, search, and even hide checks like it is necissary to survive) And it works. Then, when HIS guys attack, force him to make the same rule apply. Ways to get around this inlcude: -Magic (Wizard/Sorcerer or any other spellcaster, just offensive attacks) -Attack unarmed (he will have harder times making you critical fubmle with you're own fists!) -Once you hit level 9, get the Dragon Cohort feat! (Draconomicon, just to mess with him) -Or, if you are a 7th level spellcaster, Dragon Familiar. -Following that line of thought (can you tell I only have the Draconomicon on hand?) Get a Ring of Dragonshape! Or Armor of Dragonshape! (23,00 GP and 23,165 GP respectively) In ohter words, do SOMETHING to get around this ability, to the point it doesn't bother you anymore. (may take some sacrifices, but if you are profound enough doing this, it could help)
Twisted Puppy 08-24-05, 05:20 PM	I played a lot of Cyberpunk 2020 years ago as well. It's funny how shared experiences can result in different outlooks -- the crappy auto-fail rules in that game created my instinctual distrust of all things fumble. I was fortunate, the guy I started the game with believed that a successful cool check could negate a fumble. In fact, if you described your recovery well enough, he wouldn't even make you roll the cool check. Again, how the GM handles it has a lot to do with what you think of the system. We still talk about the girl who fumbled a Driving- Motorcycle roll while taking a sharp curve at 90 kph. She rolled the "1", saw the result, started giggling, and tore up her character sheet. She thought it was funnier than anybody else. I have had my share of DMs with the me - vs - party attitude. You're right, it's not fun when someone's intentionally trying to give you the shaft. Some players at my table I would NOT try anything other than, "Okay, fumble, you blew your reflex save, you lost the rest of your attacks this round." At cons, I make it clear that a "1" on an attack roll is a fumble, Reflex save DC10. Failure is dropped weapon, etc. I don't do anything beyond that, even if they roll a "1" on the Ref save. I just don't know them, and they don't know me (usually) well enough to know that they won't freak and I'm not trying to shaft them. It all depends on the players having a level of trust in the DM. If it is clear that it is done in the spirit of having fun, and adding a bit of laughter to the game, there should not be much of a problem. I can see where bad experiences would lead to an automatic distrust of the concept. Abulafia, if you were in my game and expressed the concern, I don't doubt that we could come to some agreement. Maybe you'd be persuasive enough to get me to toss the system, or maybe I'd be persuasive enough for you to at least give it a chance for a session or two. Something where the game started and we were both comfortable. It's like anything else that a player has reservations about. If you approach the DM, calmly, politely, and constructively, he's going to listen to you if he is the kind of DM whose game you want to be in. He may not agree with what you say, but be assured he will bear what you said in mind. On the other hand, if the approach used is, "If you do X, I'm not going to play," don't be surprised if you are told, "Wow, sorry you wasted your time coming over. See ya."
TheNatealator 08-24-05, 11:06 PM	Fremont: Remember to tell him that even though Joe Schmoe can't touch Mr. Awesome, THEY'RE NOT FIGHTING EACH OTHER. Joe Schmoe is farming, while Mr. Awesome is fighting stuff like demons, devils, ancient dragons, and level 20 wizards. It does not 'balance out' because a lvl 1 character needs to be balanced for CR 1 creatures, and a level 20 character needs to be balanced for CR 20 creatures. I don't know how many times or ways you need to say it, but that needs to be the core of your arguement. Ask him if the level 1 commoner is balanced with the level 20 fighter, why should anyone gain levels at all, in any class?
magicchupacabra 08-25-05, 02:49 AM	First off, our DM is in his mid 30's, or atleast thats what he looks like, I never asked. He has no concept of the rules and mainly relies on a pompous idiot who thinks he knows the rules. Pompous Idiot: Attacks of Opportunity don't provoke attacks of opportunity Me: Yes they do. If you have combat reflexes you can make a crazy chain of them. Pompous Idiot: No you can't Me: Show me where it says that Pompous Idiot: No because you don't want me to prove that you're wrong. (I've never been wrong. I may not have known the full rule, but I've always pointed out when they were doing something wrong and we should consult the book.) I had a DM that would do this. I got to the point where I pulled out my wallet, took out a 20 and put it on the table and dared him to put his money where his mouth was. After that he never questioned my judgement again and stopped with stupid things like that. :D Remember, nothing lasts longer for a lession than a lession that costs you money. I dont advise this though unless you're 100% sure on a ruling though, and willing to get some ill will from the DM. :devil:
Fanged Fremont 08-25-05, 04:04 PM	We did this to our DM. (we hit a major trap in one mission, were attacked while dealing with it, barely survived, and thus, we make listen, spot, search, and even hide checks like it is necissary to survive) And it works. The longer we take doing things, the more chance of a random encounter. There's 6 players. One is a pompous ass, one is too indecisive to play a caster with lots of options, one is just kinda there, one doesn't care because he knows this is just filler until he starts his campaign, and the other is a power gamer who bows before the DM's wishes in hopes of getting cool stuff. There is no chance to get them to overthrow the DM's ruling. Then, when HIS guys attack, force him to make the same rule apply. He does, but he rolls pretty damn good. I've never seen so many 20's, and I've checked his dice. He rolls out in the open too. Ways to get around this inlcude: -Magic (Wizard/Sorcerer or any other spellcaster, just offensive attacks) He'll still screw you over somehow. Like my entangle spell not hitting. -Attack unarmed (he will have harder times making you critical fubmle with you're own fists!) You don't drop your weapon, you go off balance for 1.5 rounds and can't attack but can still take move actions somehow. -Once you hit level 9, get the Dragon Cohort feat! (Draconomicon, just to mess with him) -Or, if you are a 7th level spellcaster, Dragon Familiar. -Following that line of thought (can you tell I only have the Draconomicon on hand?) Get a Ring of Dragonshape! Or Armor of Dragonshape! (23,00 GP and 23,165 GP respectively) Core and his own machinations of insanity only. In ohter words, do SOMETHING to get around this ability, to the point it doesn't bother you anymore. (may take some sacrifices, but if you are profound enough doing this, it could help) Rpgshop.com has cheat dice. That's my answer. I'll only use them for his campaign I swear.
Thoronmir 08-25-05, 04:25 PM	I don’t have time to read the entire thread and I’m sure others have offered the same advice … but here goes. Rally your fellow players and ask nicely that the DM remove this rule. If the DM balks, explain that you do not enjoy having this house rule in the game. If he continues to resist, point out that any rule that makes combat more dangerous has a disproportionate impact on the PCs and, hence, makes the game deadlier for the characters. Ask why you should care about the PCs if the DM doesn't. I personally would never play with a DM who imposed any penalty on a natural 1 other than a missed attack.
Murrdox 08-25-05, 04:38 PM	Wow - Fanged... It sounds like you hate your DM, and also hate your gaming group. Furthermore, it sounds like a HORRIBLE gaming group. Find a different group to game with... please!
Platinu Kismet 08-25-05, 06:05 PM	Well, I've been running DnD for about 15 years and I like the idea of fumbles but only in moderation. 3.5 rules having that a nat 20 isn't an automatic crit, I don't believe a nat 1 should be an automatic fumble. I posted my current fumble tables here: http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=770303&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 With them, you fumble less the higher level you are which makes sense. Sure it'll sometimes happen, but increasingly more rare the higher you go. I use these for the monsters/bad guys also. The DM the OP is describing sounds like he needs an attitude adjustment. Someone else in the group DM for awhile, let him play for a change.
Bane 08-25-05, 06:58 PM	I had critical fumble rules for my first 6 months of DMing. Here they are: If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, you threaten a critical miss. To confirm the critical miss, make another attack roll at the same bonus. If this roll would also fail to hit the opponent, then you have critically missed. The effects of a critical miss? You draw an Attack of Opportunity, and the game moves on to the next guy in line. You do not drop your weapon, unless someone uses their AoO to disarm you. You do not injure yourself, but the guy standing next to you might do that for you. You lose the rest of that turn, and suffer AoO's. Not so bad. I also had a feat similar to Power Critical, that would give you a +4 on the roll to confirm the critical miss.
mhr74 08-25-05, 10:18 PM	I had critical fumble rules for my first 6 months of DMing. Here they are: If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, you threaten a critical miss. To confirm the critical miss, make another attack roll at the same bonus. If this roll would also fail to hit the opponent, then you have critically missed. The effects of a critical miss? You draw an Attack of Opportunity, and the game moves on to the next guy in line. You do not drop your weapon, unless someone uses their AoO to disarm you. You do not injure yourself, but the guy standing next to you might do that for you. You lose the rest of that turn, and suffer AoO's. Not so bad. I also had a feat similar to Power Critical, that would give you a +4 on the roll to confirm the critical miss. That rule is pretty pimp. Me rikey!
Horseshoe_Hermit 08-26-05, 09:32 PM	Here's what I think he's doing: The critical miss. Imagine, how every once in a while, your character will just come across a hit. Something so incredulously fortuitous, that it may take a limb, or nose, or ear. Or it could just be that your opponent bobbed instead of weaved. Makes sense. But the critical miss. Your character, to be threatening, as to every now and then try for something big. If you kept to shy swings of your short sword, your opponent might as well just coup de grace and take your AoO. And sometimes when you go for this, you completely misread your opponent, and go soaring away from him. Or you could just have fumbled your weapon. Fumbling the weapon is the equivalent of the occasional hit which will just crop up. If you roll a 1, make another roll (like a critical threat). If that roll would hit, your character has just fumbled his weapon. He loses his next action, whether that is this round (including extra attacks this action), or the beginning of the next, the time spent regaining grip of the weapon (personally, you could try reflex saves of 15 to see if you actually drop in this case but ignore the loss of an action, or you could allow your character the option of intentionally dropping the weapon, but I think it's better to imagine your character losing all wit and going "OH CRAP! GET IT GET IT!") Now, the swing and soar is the equivalent of the loss of limb critical. If you roll a 1 and then roll a miss, you lose all your actions this round, and drop to the bottom of the initiative round next round, as well as any penalties described above that you choose to include. As well, if you're the guy who plays with triple or double natural 20 rules for swings of sudden death or massive hemorrhaging, include an alternative for critical miss like swinging and falling over, prone for a round. (usually resulting in a coup de grace for massive hemorrhaging or sudden death). A very reasonable counter balance to critical hits.
Otto the Bugbear 08-26-05, 09:57 PM	I love a good fumble system. I've got a fumble system (and an alternate critical hit system) that's been in place for 12 years. It also counts on higher level characters fumbling less. Check my sig. The DM in question here is certainly one reason why fumble systems get a bad name. A well done fumble chart can both enhance the mood and NOT screw over characters as they advance (into more attacks per round). In fact, a good system actually makes it easier for high level characters to avoid fumbles. Really, you'd practically be better off DMing yourself. If you're even moderate at the job, then you'll be fine. Plus, it sounds like you know the rules well enough that the game mechanics are a non-issue. If you have trouble with adventures, pick up Dungeon. I think that mag is just starting another string of adventures that should take a character from 1st through 20th levels. If you find you can't or won't DM, then just switch to skills only. Human rogue with 18 intelligence. Then go into Dungeon Delver for the skill mastery. Granted, the crappy DM could still screw with a skill character, but you're less likely to be beat to on for free for 2 rounds. Cheers Otto :)