Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Veln Sheldar 11-06-07, 02:01 PM	Hi Guys I’m really just looking for some advice on what to do in a situation that has occurred in our weekly DND game. I should start out by saying that OOC we are all getting along fine and we are enjoying the role-playing interaction that our current predicament affords. Here is what the group started out as: LG Gray Elf Paladin 6 CG Human Rogue 5/Thief Acrobat 1 LN Human Wizard 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 1 (me) CN Dwarf Cleric 6 So we accepted a assignment for a wealthy merchant/noble to retrieve an item that had been stolen from his family about 100 years before, we really only asked minimal questions and were told the general location and that the item was a weapon with a distinctive crest, but the nobleman did not know what sort of weapon, as his grandfathers journals were not specific. We set out on to the location on the way we uncovered that the symbol described to us on the weapon was that of a cult that had attempted to overthrow the monarchy some 100 years ago. We uncovered the dungeon that the weapon was inside but discovered that it was in fact a dungeon built by a Lawful Good Cleric to contain evil and chaotic items that were too dangerous to the outside world. The traps affected evil and chaotic creatures etc, and as the God my character worshipped happened to be the same as the cleric who built the dungeon I was at a certain point drawn into a extra dimensional space and ordered by a extra planar servant of my God that nothing could be removed from the dungeon on pain of my death. It did not define whether it only prohibited me from removing items or the entire party. The Paladin and I agreed it was not worth the risk of removing any items even those we thought were not dangerous and after some argument the other 2 members of the party agreed. However they lied and continued to loot the dungeon behind our backs, the rogue picked up and fell under the influence of an artifact chaotic book whilst the cleric took various items. I was affected by a spell that temporarily shifted by alignment to Lawful Good. We uncovered information that pointed us to a library in a large city so we decided to investigate further. We stopped by the exit of the dungeon and I asked the party to double check that they had not taken anything even going so far as to use Prestidigitation multiple times to clean dust etc from everyone (yes I was a little paranoid.) The Cleric at this point admitted that he had picked up a mace and gave it up myself and the Paladin returned it to the Vault, where we noticed that several other items were missing. Returning to the surface we found the Cleric had left whilst the Rogue was still waiting for us, on questioning the Rogue and realising he was about to be rumbled he attempted to own up and give back the items however the book took control of him and forced him to flee, we were able to capture him and recovering the items he had returned those to the vault. While he was fleeing he told us the cleric had made him do it. We then found the cleric gagged and bound outside and he told us a group of people who told him they were there to meet the rogue took the items he had stolen from him, he further said that the rogue had begged him to remove some items so he agreed to do so. I demanded that they submit to Detect Thoughts and Suggestion spells in order to uncover the truth but they both have refused and the Paladin will not let me cast them on them unwillingly as he believes it will be a violation of the sanctity of their minds. We are currently sitting around a fire with both the Rogue and the Cleric bound and gagged and trying to figure out what to do next. The Paladin wants to return them both to a legitimate authority to sort it out. Any thoughts on methods to get the truth whilst trying to at least keep some of the party together? Plausible ways to overcome this and carry on as a group? Ways for me to get revenge and not have the Paladin catch on? Any thoughts in general are welcome as we would like to balance a realistic outcome with one allowing us to have as much of the party contimue to work together as possible. See ya Veln
Etarnon 11-10-07, 08:29 PM	Return them to legitimate authority to sort it out. Don't allow CN characters in parties. Good luck.
Prator_The_Golden 11-10-07, 08:59 PM	I don't know that the CN character is really to blame, although you don't know that, IC. So, obviously, you've got to find out what really happened, IC. Look through the rogue's stuff as long as he's tied up. If the artifact book is in his possession and you pick it up, it will likely try to possess you too. Assuming you beat the will save, your cleric will have enough information to let the rogue off the hook, since it will become clear to you that the book is at least partially responsible for the rogue's behavior. The book will be returned to the dungeon, and you can berate the rogue about his irresponsible, stupid behavior that could have gotten all you killed, etc. all the way back to town. Hopefully he'll have learned his lesson and won't do this again. Have you considered the possibility that the book might be a plot item? Maybe you were MEANT to take it out...
ObscureInfo 11-10-07, 09:41 PM	If they will not submit to the spells and your "partner" Sir "Holier than thou" won't let you cast them anyways, you are left with one choice. Bring 'em back to legitimate authorities who will do what you were going to do anyway. By the way, you still LG? "Getting your revenge" is not very LG. It is pretty LN, though, so I'll let it slide. It is a sticky situation, I grant you, but here's how I would handle it: The rogue may or may not be a pawn of this evil book. He also stuck around while you returned the artifact/weapons back to the dungeon. Once you are sure he is no longer "under the influence", he should be allowed to come back. Especially if he makes some noise about redeeming himself. The dwarf cleric is just a villian. greedy or not, once the party decided not to take any of the swag (because it is cursed or whatnot), he should have conformed to the party's decision. But he didn't. He wasn't posessed or under a spell, he just broke ranks. While not a punishable act, it shows where his loyalty lies. With only himself. The fact that he was then ambushed means nothing. He was prefectly willing to allow evil stuff out into the world to make a quick buck. I can not see any reason why the rest of you, especially paladin and yourself would want him along. I would see to it he was locked up and booted out of party. That player can then roll up a new character. The interesting part is once the cleric is locked up and not a PC anymore, he becomes an NPC that the DM can then use to become a reoccuring villian. He might break out of prision or be freed by that cult. He might become a competitor, looking to find the artifacts before the party does. Like that French archeologist in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Beloch, I think his name was. But whatever happens, that dwarf cannot be trusted. He made his choice. And if the player insists that he is just playing his alignment, then insist that the others will not adventure with ANYONE of CN alignment. It is obvious that this player plays CN as an opportunist who is only out for themselves. The rest of the party would not want someone like that around. as Etarnon said, Don't allow CN characters in parties.
ObscureInfo 11-10-07, 10:22 PM	Have you considered the possibility that the book might be a plot item? Maybe you were MEANT to take it out... Of course the book is a plot item. Especially if the dwarf is actually telling the truth about the cult people were looking for the rogue. They were tipped off by their evil deity that the book was in the posession of the rogue and was being removed from the dungeon. However, that doesn't absolve the dwarf. He just said the rogue begged him to, so he did. At least the rogue implied that the cleric used magic to compel him to. Once the book is revealed, the rogue will cleverly spin this into a "the devil made me do it". As long he repents and swears to never again defy the party, he should be allowed to return. The dwarf attempted to escape from the rest of the party and if the cultists didn't think he was the one with the book, he would've been long gone. Here's the thing. You made no mention of the fact that either of your characters (the paladin and you) knows about the book and its power. So most likely, you will have to bring your companions back to civilization with the book in tow and perhaps have it stolen by the cultists at some point. This could be before or after you find out about its importance. This is the plot. Return the book to the vaults before the cultists use it to raise their evil god or some such thing. And on such a quest, you can't have a variable like the dwarf running around, doing his own thing. So get a new cleric. A good cleric. One thing still bothers me: why would a CG rogue boldface lie to you and the paladin? He knew why you were leaving it all there. It seems like the player was playing him more of CN, like the dwarf. It looks like he just shifted alignments even before the book compelled him. The book is still the rogue's salvation. He was "under the influence". But the dwarf has no alibi, he just broke ranks and broke his word, thus proving himself untrustworthy. Time to find a new cleric. And keep an eye on that CN rogue. If the rogue refuses to repent, then disband the party. No lawful adventurers are going to travel with two known oathbreakers, especially on such a quest. Then either those two create new characters or you all do. (start over the game)
Etarnon 11-11-07, 08:37 AM	And if the player insists that he is just playing his alignment, then insist that the others will not adventure with ANYONE of CN alignment. That's the grand cure all, right there. Another entry in my Recruiting new players notebook.
Kalai_Eljahn 11-11-07, 10:07 AM	...CN people are the ones who avoid combat and have a modicum of common sense. Oh, sorry, was I generalising based on the characters in my first D&D session? Just wanted to point out that as long as the group doesn't have a problem letting the dwarf play this alignment, maybe you shouldn't issue a blanket condemnation...also the CG character seems to be as likely to be at fault IC, and I can see a N character behaving in this fashion... Detect Thoughts and Suggestion are both pretty intrusive. Have you considered Zone of Truth? That way they don't have to say anything they don't want, but if they don't resist and say something you can be more confident it's true. It seems to me that if either is telling the truth about being coerced they'd jump at the chance.
Veln Sheldar 11-11-07, 10:59 AM	Thanks for everyones responses Just to update and clarify the situation, we did discover the books in the rogues backpack and these have been returned to the secure (ish) Vault. We decided to take them back to a legitimate authority, however we couldn't agree on what that authority should be so our compromise was that we will ask for representives from the The Mule (my god) and the Riftmaster (the clerics god) to stand in judgement. As the the clerics god doesn't like powerful artifacts as they upset the balance of magical power I am hopeful we should get some kind of outcome I can live with. We were forced to free both of them to allow them to defend themselves when we attacked by Wendigo during our travels back to civilisation and the Paladin (who to be fair is playing his low intelligence to the hilt) feels they have proved that they will not run off as they both gave their word to him. We still are not aware the cleric had planned the whole thing to get some specific artifacts out and he still maintains that the dictates of the group or of any god but his own have any hold over him. The Rogue has been somewhat apologetic and is making more moves than the cleric to reintegrate with the party. His alignment has shifted to CN however he has talked about redeeming himself. We have just added a new member of the party who came in during the middle of the Wendigo fight and is somewhat bemused by the infighting in the group. We shall see the outcome of the "trial" on Thursday. See Ya Veln
ObscureInfo 11-11-07, 11:38 AM	Just wanted to point out that as long as the group doesn't have a problem letting the dwarf play this alignment, maybe you shouldn't issue a blanket condemnation...also the CG character seems to be as likely to be at fault IC, and I can see a N character behaving in this fashion... In my experience, people who play CN characters do so because they want to play CE but the DM or other players won't let them. So they are just short of evil. They think nothing of betrayal and seize any opportunity they can. They steal from the party and in essence, do everything they can to disrupt the group dynamic. Trust a CN, are you crazy? I have never met a CN character that you could trust. They don't care about laws or keeping their word, because they are CHAOTIC. And they don't hold to any standard of good because they are NEUTRAL. They could be good, they could be bad. But more often than not, THE PLAYER uses this as an opportunity to be bad and get away with it. True, the dwarf didn't kill anybody, he didn't cast his spells on another party member, he didn't sell them into slavery (someone once told me a story about a friend of his who did that with a CN character. :) ), and he didn't rob another member of the party. What he did was agree to leave everything there because it was there for a reason. That reason was most of the stuff was EVIL. And then he lied to them and took stuff anyway. He is an oathbreaker. How can you trust anything he tells you? He never even apologized. He just shifted blame. At least the rogue seemed sorry, even if it was to save his skin. But the CG rogue is really a CN rogue because lying to your mates to line your own pockets is NOT good. It is not neccessarily evil, but it isn't good. The motivations are key here. Leaving the stuff there was agreed upon by the party to serve some higher good (according to the OP). When the rogue lied through his teeth, he was acting selfishly and not according to any standard of good I have ever met. As for the party not minding, I think it is implied that both the paladin and wizard players DID mind. Because he came on here to ask advice on how to proceed. Does the DM mind? Probably not, he was able to use their greed to advance his plot. Does the players playing the CN characters mind? Of course not. But it is the good (or rather lawful) members of the party who are in control. The others are tied up. Given the circumstances, I would not be able to trust either of them IC unless it was shown that the rogue was not in control of himself. Then, if he was repentant, I would bring him in. But he would have to be on his best behavior. No more working behind their backs. The dwarf is another matter. Which god does he serve? The dwarven god of greed? I am sorry, but given the circumstances, what character could trust him? It is obvious from the OP's post that in this quest, there are meant to be motivations higher than just getting wealthy. The heroes are meant to serve the forces of law and good. The CN dwarf is just not going to go along with that, unless it is only to betray them at some later date to grab more wealth. It seems to me that if either is telling the truth about being coerced they'd jump at the chance I, too, was struck by this. Innocent people usually can't wait to take a polygraph test or whatnot. Unless they are hiding something else. The fact that they chose to break their word without being compelled? Or the fact that if they hadn't got caught, they wouldn't feel sorry about it? Zone of Truth is a divine spell. Apparently the paladin is not high enough level to cast it. The wizard is stuck, because the paladin won't let him use the spells he can cast to determine their guilt. Bring 'em back to the authorities and figure out your next plan. If neither of the CN characters are repentant and can not be trusted to keep their word, both lawful characters will have to cut them loose. Break up the party. If the players cannot work together, then you have a bigger problem. Mixed Alignment Parties only work when there is some unifying framework among the characters. They are old friends who grew up together. They are relatives. They have a common cause (even if it is just to get as rich as possible). They are sworn allies. They formed a charter. Without some basis for trust, the MA party cannot stand. Ultimately, that is what I don't understand about CN and CE characters. How can they trust each other? And if you can't trust your fellow adventurers, why travel with them?
ObscureInfo 11-11-07, 11:44 AM	Hey, thanks for the update. I hope it works out.
Kalai_Eljahn 11-11-07, 02:02 PM	I should start out by saying that OOC we are all getting along fine and we are enjoying the role-playing interaction that our current predicament affords. This is really the phrase I was referencing. I've asked for advice on situations I was enjoying myself. Detect Thoughts and Suggestion would be way too intrusive for me to give my consent in RL, I can't blame anyone in-game...but they could ask someone outside the party for the truth spell if the paladin can't cast it... Not all CN characters are played as an excuse for CE. The same player I referenced from my first D&D session chose the same alignment when we played a nongood campaign. My warlock is CN, but she'd rather be CG; the evil tendencies include an intense and brooding hatred against those she believed led to her current circumstances (a form of bondage because of her demonic power, all the more reprehensible because it was not her fault) and her experiences have caused a lingering bitterness against her fellow beings that does not quite let her be good. If I wanted her to be evil, she'd be evil. The cousin of hers I felt I had to take out of the party was LE. (I didn't take her out because of that, she was just starting to scare me a little with some of her other tendencies.) Curiously enough, sometimes even Chaotic Insane characters are perfectly trustworthy. (being in a somewhat, ah, playful group of teenagers has given me experience playing and playing with this kind...) We know what to do to motivate the pyromaniac sorcerer even if he's a little dangerous to be around, but we also know he doesn't actively wish anyone harm. In some adventuring groups being L/NG is harder than being CN. My uncle stopped playing D&D because he and his party didn't see eye-to-eye on that... And just incidentally, I've played a CE, insane, homicidal, sociopathic character who seems to be more trustworthy and stable than my paladin. And functions better in a group. (I think Jaren might be happy to just go back to being a plain old Ranger not having to interact with anyone but his apprentice more than once a month or so...) Not that I'm recommending that for D&D. She's too powerful for most campaigns, which is really the only reason she's alive. Most everyone from her world would like to see her dead, but she seems to be over whatever it was that called for her to fight quite so viciously against an enemy nation... If I actually try and say something coherent, not everyone is CN for the same reasons. A paladin need not automatically shun the worship of Olidammara; what do wine, wit, and women actually have to do with evil, after all? (That question was rhetorical. ;) ) Neutral can refer to a benign but somewhat apathetic attitude toward other people: you won't necessarily steal from an unsuspecting merchant or commit arson, but you might not sign up to defend your country the day someone declares war against you, or buy free-trade coffee instead of normal, or lobby the Senate to improve the state of public education, or volunteer at the local charities ten hours a week. You might toss a beggar a few silver if you feel like it, or grumble cynically about how they'd just drink it off anyway. ((Oh and sorry if I'm off topic -- I'm a little fond of alignment debates, don't know why...))
ObscureInfo 11-11-07, 04:08 PM	OK, I'll bite. Neutral can refer to a benign but somewhat apathetic attitude toward other people: you won't necessarily steal from an unsuspecting merchant or commit arson, but you might not sign up to defend your country the day someone declares war against you, or buy free-trade coffee instead of normal, or lobby the Senate to improve the state of public education, or volunteer at the local charities ten hours a week. You might toss a beggar a few silver if you feel like it, or grumble cynically about how they'd just drink it off anyway. But that is not what happened here. You had two CN characters who deliberately lied to their companions in an effort to line their own pockets. Regardless of the consequences their teammates told them about. (unleashing potential evil into the world) They even had an argument about it, and finally came to a consensus. Leave it alone. And then the two CN characters went ahead and grabbed all they could anyway. I admit, I am biased against CN because of the way I have seen CN characters protrayed. Too many people I know have used it as an excuse to do whatever they want. You are saying that not all CN characters are like that, and I would hope that would be true, but I have yet to see any evidence pointing to that fact. But my point remains. THESE characters were not the way you describe. They were selfish and untrustworthy. If I were the wizard, I would drop these two like a bad habit.
Kalai_Eljahn 11-11-07, 08:41 PM	My groups do whatever they want anyway, so we label our characters whatever we think they are. ;) Yes, I agree that it's a huge betrayal of trust IC. Even chaotic evil Drow groups base their relationships on some set of expectations about the behaviors of everyone. The rogue's going to have his work cut out for him, but he seems to be going about reconciliation in a reasonable fashion. People make mistakes. They suffer the consequences. They make choices, and they suffer the consequences. This seems a reasonable way for the dwarf's player to dissolve his character's attachment to the party if he wants: you don't have to remember everyone who left you fondly. If the dwarf wants to stay with the party, he is going to have to work to regain the party's trust, or at least plead for some tolerance. If I were the wizard...I would feel bitter and resentful toward both of them and perhaps stick near them for reasons having nothing to do with liking them.
kelvinaw273 11-12-07, 09:39 AM	OK, I'll bite. But that is not what happened here. You had two CN characters who deliberately lied to their companions in an effort to line their own pockets. Regardless of the consequences their teammates told them about. (unleashing potential evil into the world) They even had an argument about it, and finally came to a consensus. Leave it alone. And then the two CN characters went ahead and grabbed all they could anyway. I admit, I am biased against CN because of the way I have seen CN characters protrayed. Too many people I know have used it as an excuse to do whatever they want. You are saying that not all CN characters are like that, and I would hope that would be true, but I have yet to see any evidence pointing to that fact. But my point remains. THESE characters were not the way you describe. They were selfish and untrustworthy. If I were the wizard, I would drop these two like a bad habit. Described like this, they are not Chaotic Neutral, they are Chaotic Evil. "I can do whatever I like" is actually Chaotic Evil in outlook when it ignores the negative consequences to others.
High Octane 11-12-07, 09:51 AM	Don't allow CN characters in parties. BS. The only reason the CN character was in deep trouble was the book took control of him and forced him to flee. Here's a better thought: Don't play with a DM who controls the actions of your characters forcibly through absurd divine intervention, arbitrary alignment shifts and mind controlling artifacts. CN is a fine alignment if the player doesn't see it as an excuse to act like a jackass.