Help judging what's a free action [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help judging what's a free action [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ebiris
03-01-08, 11:21 AM Hi, I'm hoping someone can point me to a rule that spells this out explicitly, since it's something I've been taking for granted but now the DM has challenged me on it.

I'm playing a gish who uses a two-handed weapon. When casting spells, I think I can take my hand off the weapon (while keeping it held in the other) as a free action, cast the spell, and then replace my hand as another free action.

I don't think any other action type would make sense for something so minor, but it's now in dispute so I really need something RAW to back up my argument. Can anyone help?
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-01-08, 11:23 AM Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) strongly implies you can not do this as a free action.
Ebiris
03-01-08, 11:28 AM Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) strongly implies you can not do this as a free action.

But I'm not drawing a weapon. I'm holding it in both hands, already drawn. Then I simply take one hand off it so I can cast a spell with a somatic component, then put it back on the weapon.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-01-08, 11:30 AM Yeah but that's not how the game sees it. Either the weapon is drawn and ready, or it's not. If it's drawn and ready, being a two-handed weapon, it's occupying both of your hands, and you don't have a hand free for somatic components. If you stop wielding the thing in two hands to use a hand on somatic components, you no longer have your two-handed weapon drawn and ready.
Ebiris
03-01-08, 11:37 AM Okay, let's back up a bit and look at it from another perspective.

Say I'm a regular fighter with no somatic components to worry about. Lets say I foolishly decide to fight with a longsword in each hand against an enemy. Obviously I'm having trouble hitting. So I drop the longsword in my off hand (free action!) then attack with my single longsword. You're saying that by doing that I would have to spend some sort of action if I wanted to wield it with both hands in order to apply 1.5x my strength bonus.

What sort of action should it be? Move? Standard?
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-01-08, 11:50 AM That I would call a free action, but that isn't the same thing. You merely shifted grip - you never had the primary longsword unready.

I suppose now you'll say you just shifted grip on the two-hander as well, and realism dictates that it should also be a free action. To that I'll reply, BS. Realism dictates free actions don't exist, nothing takes no time at all.

Take Quick Draw or live with the situation as it stands.
Merestil Haye
03-01-08, 12:21 PM You're trying to do two things here.

Releasing a weapon is easy. If that weapon is light or one-handed, that's dropping a weapon - a free action. Also, if you want to drop a two-handed weapon (another free action) you need to take both hands off the weapon. Why then is releasing one hand from a two-handed weapon not a free action?

Taking a new grip on a weapon is not something that is generally reckoned a free action. For example, shifting a weapon from one hand to another is generally reckoned to be a move action. Consequently I'd be inclined to say restoring the 2-handed grip is a move action.

Quick Draw absolutely will not help under any circumstances. That feat affects the Draw a Weapon action, and you have not taken that action.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-01-08, 12:48 PM I suspect MH is actually right on this one. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP's DM would let him do what he wants with Quick Draw, and I don't think that would be out of line at all, but the stricter reading is probably the more accurate, here.
Anyr
03-01-08, 01:16 PM The Somatic Weaponry feat from Complete Mage would seem to imply that shifting grips to cast spells is more than a free action. If it were that easy to circumvent the restriction then that feat would be totally useless.
Ebiris
03-01-08, 01:22 PM Actually somatic weaponry is useful if you're using a sword and shield, or two weapon fighting.

I just don't buy that a wizard with a quarterstaff can't move and cast a spell in the same round because he needs to spend an action on shifting his grip on the weapon.
jage
03-01-08, 01:24 PM I would say it's a free action because the spirit of free action (to me) is that it take no reckonable time in the game. Putting your hand back where it was shouldn't take a move action in my opinion. However if the DM really wants to have an exchange for doing this how about suggesting 5-foot step? In other words, your player can take his 5-foot step as normal in a round OR can use the 5-foot step to put his hand back where it was, but not both.

I'm no rules lawyer but I think taking the full move action is a bit much.
DrMorganes
03-01-08, 02:37 PM Let's consider some related information:
Shifting a one-handed weapon to one's shield hand is a Move-equivalent action. This is most commonly performed by clerics needing to cast a spell.
Drawing a weapon may be done as part of a Move Action if your BAB is +1 or better.
Dropping a weapon of any sort is a free action.
The SRD says that a two-handed weapon requires two hands to use. Not draw, not hold - use.

With those things in mind, I would rule that taking your hand off a drawn and previously ready two-handed weapon to cast a spell is indeed a free action. Both hands were already on the weapon; you're not taking time to transfer your grip as in Item 1. Only one hand is required to actually hold it. I don't think one can reasonably argue that you can drop a two-handed weapon - that is, take BOTH hands off the weapon - as a free action, but it takes a Move Action or longer to remove ONE hand.

Not only that, but under most circumstances you're not going to be casting a spell AND making a melee attack in the same round. This can happen in higher-level games, but if you're quibbling about that at Level 15, you're having other issues...
Shadow_Viper
03-01-08, 03:18 PM I would call removing one hand from a Two-Handed Sword a free action. Replacing that hand on the sword's hilt should likewise be a free action.

You've already drawn the weapon, so quick draw would not apply.

All quickdraw allows a character to do, is to draw a weapon/s as a free action.
NordicBirch
03-02-08, 10:36 AM CO boards to the rescue when needing the correct rules. :)

The Duskblade Handbook refers to this ruling
"Adjacent Squares and Reach Weapons: There are some tricks you can use to threaten those adjacent squares when you're using a reach weapon. If you're a monk, your unarmed attacks continue to threaten the squares adjacent to you. Even if you're not a monk, you can use a smaller weapon to threaten the adjacent squares. You'll have to hold the reach weapon in one hand and wield the smaller weapon in the other hand. Since most reach weapons are two-handed weapons, you're only holding onto the reach weapon, not wielding it, and you don't threaten an area with it. Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. Drawing the smaller weapon requires an action, but if you have the Quick Draw feat, it's a free action. Note that you can take a free action only during your turn.

If you want to use this trick, you must draw the smaller weapon while it's still your turn. When you do so, you don't threaten any area with your larger weapon until you wield it in two hands again. To resume using the bigger weapon on your turn, you'll have to drop the smaller weapon (a free action) to free up your hand for the bigger weapon."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a

You can remove a hand from a 2h weapon as a free action, do something else and put the hand back on the weapon as a free action. Pretty clear.
Bloodbat
03-02-08, 01:08 PM I can see how a DM might rule that you cannot do both in the same round, even if both are a free action. As I recall, free actions are allowed, within reason. I think a DM can reasonably state that although both actions are free actions that the two of them combined become more than free actions in any one round. So, if I were to DM it that way, I might let you remove your hand as a free action and do whatever in round 1, and in round 2 I would let you replace your hand as a free action. It reminds me of a case when a player wanted to yell warnings to other characters. Yelling is a free action but yelling a dozen warnings to each of the other players adds up to something more than a free action.
Ebiris
03-03-08, 01:00 PM I asked customer service:

I searched the FAQ, and the closest I could find was a part about it being a move action for a cleric to swap his morningstar into the hand he's got his shield on.

What I want to know, however, is what sort of action is it to switch between wielding a weapon 1-handed, and wielding it 2-handed, and whether it matters what size it is (ie, is there any difference between carrying a longsword in one hand and then switching to hold it with both, and doing the same for a greatsword, leaving aside the fact that the greatsword can't be swung with only one hand).

There are no rules specifically for changing the way you hold a weapon. I would consider it a free action, unless there is something inhibiting you from using your arms. Any other circumstance type checks would be determined by your DM. There are certain feats, however, that give you bonuses for fighting with a one-handed weapon and not using a shield, such as Einhander (Player's Handbook II, p94.)
themocaw
03-03-08, 02:06 PM Here is how I would adjudicate it as a DM: Quick Draw, in my opinion, is training in rapidly readying your weapon for combat, otherwise, it kinda sucks. It doesn't matter if your weapon is unreadied because it's in its scabbard at your hip or drawn and leaning against your backpack: as long as you don't need to do something like un peace-bond it or dig it out of your backpack or run across the room to get it, you can move your weapon from unready to ready in a single free action.

When you take your left hand off your greatsword, and start casting, that's a free action. However, without monkey grip, greatswords are too big to fight one-handed, so you have basically unreadied your weapon: resting the flat on your shoulder, resting the point on the ground, leaning it against your upper arm, whatever. Putting your hand back on and reestablishing your combat stance is readying your weapon again. If you have quick draw, great, your weapon is back up and you can take that attack of opportunity. If you don't, your weapon is unreadied, and you need to wait until your next turn.

Now let's pretend you have XWP in Bastard Sword. When you take your left hand off your bastard sword, that's a free action: You are shifting grip to your one-handed grip. You can swing a bastard sword one-handed, so you have not unreadied your weapon. Putting your hand back on and reestablishing your two-handed stance is switching back to two-handed stance, which is another free action.
Cartigan
03-03-08, 02:33 PM CO boards to the rescue when needing the correct rules. :)

The Duskblade Handbook refers to this ruling [...] Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. [...]
The rules don't say it but that's the rule? Gee, I wish I could pull "rules" out of my magical hat and have people take them as gospel. However, it makes sense to be able to do that. You arn't attacking with your weapon and I doubt it is large enough to prevent you from being able to hold it in one hand. You should be able to hold it up the ~3 seconds it takes you to perform a standard action.
Jagyr Ebonwood
03-03-08, 02:57 PM If this were my campaign, I'd allow this as a free action. It makes a kind of common sense to me.
If I were a player in this campaign and the DM ruled it as >free action, I'd start using a one-handed weapon, and ask if I could rework any weapon specific feats into this new weapon, since I didn't know about the rule before.
NordicBirch
03-03-08, 06:17 PM The rules don't say it but that's the rule? Gee, I wish I could pull "rules" out of my magical hat and have people take them as gospel.

Then apply for a job at Wizards? I fail to see the point to this little gem but maybe it's just me. :)
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-03-08, 09:01 PM Then apply for a job at Wizards? I fail to see the point to this little gem but maybe it's just me. :)

He has a problem with made-up and written rules that aren't his made-up rules. CO knows the written rules better than he does and it upsets him when he can't get the last word and be taken as gospel himself.

Well, looks like custserv disagrees with me on this one. I don't have a great deal of faith in custserv, having seen the inconsistency of their responses on some trickier subjects (power attack/leap attack with at two-hander, anyone?), but it seems pointless to drag it out any further here.
Khadmus
03-04-08, 06:11 PM Though I agree that Customer Service is not to be trusted, I would also disagree with Shaggy Shags and say that it is a free action.
Cartigan
03-04-08, 08:23 PM I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take your hand off of a weapon as an action that takes a dismissible amount of time. And put it back on as the same. You arn't putting the weapon anywhere and you are taking a fraction of time to do something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ebiris 03-01-08, 11:21 AM	Hi, I'm hoping someone can point me to a rule that spells this out explicitly, since it's something I've been taking for granted but now the DM has challenged me on it. I'm playing a gish who uses a two-handed weapon. When casting spells, I think I can take my hand off the weapon (while keeping it held in the other) as a free action, cast the spell, and then replace my hand as another free action. I don't think any other action type would make sense for something so minor, but it's now in dispute so I really need something RAW to back up my argument. Can anyone help?
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-01-08, 11:23 AM	Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) strongly implies you can not do this as a free action.
Ebiris 03-01-08, 11:28 AM	Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) strongly implies you can not do this as a free action. But I'm not drawing a weapon. I'm holding it in both hands, already drawn. Then I simply take one hand off it so I can cast a spell with a somatic component, then put it back on the weapon.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-01-08, 11:30 AM	Yeah but that's not how the game sees it. Either the weapon is drawn and ready, or it's not. If it's drawn and ready, being a two-handed weapon, it's occupying both of your hands, and you don't have a hand free for somatic components. If you stop wielding the thing in two hands to use a hand on somatic components, you no longer have your two-handed weapon drawn and ready.
Ebiris 03-01-08, 11:37 AM	Okay, let's back up a bit and look at it from another perspective. Say I'm a regular fighter with no somatic components to worry about. Lets say I foolishly decide to fight with a longsword in each hand against an enemy. Obviously I'm having trouble hitting. So I drop the longsword in my off hand (free action!) then attack with my single longsword. You're saying that by doing that I would have to spend some sort of action if I wanted to wield it with both hands in order to apply 1.5x my strength bonus. What sort of action should it be? Move? Standard?
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-01-08, 11:50 AM	That I would call a free action, but that isn't the same thing. You merely shifted grip - you never had the primary longsword unready. I suppose now you'll say you just shifted grip on the two-hander as well, and realism dictates that it should also be a free action. To that I'll reply, BS. Realism dictates free actions don't exist, nothing takes no time at all. Take Quick Draw or live with the situation as it stands.
Merestil Haye 03-01-08, 12:21 PM	You're trying to do two things here. Releasing a weapon is easy. If that weapon is light or one-handed, that's dropping a weapon - a free action. Also, if you want to drop a two-handed weapon (another free action) you need to take both hands off the weapon. Why then is releasing one hand from a two-handed weapon not a free action? Taking a new grip on a weapon is not something that is generally reckoned a free action. For example, shifting a weapon from one hand to another is generally reckoned to be a move action. Consequently I'd be inclined to say restoring the 2-handed grip is a move action. Quick Draw absolutely will not help under any circumstances. That feat affects the Draw a Weapon action, and you have not taken that action.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-01-08, 12:48 PM	I suspect MH is actually right on this one. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP's DM would let him do what he wants with Quick Draw, and I don't think that would be out of line at all, but the stricter reading is probably the more accurate, here.
Anyr 03-01-08, 01:16 PM	The Somatic Weaponry feat from Complete Mage would seem to imply that shifting grips to cast spells is more than a free action. If it were that easy to circumvent the restriction then that feat would be totally useless.
Ebiris 03-01-08, 01:22 PM	Actually somatic weaponry is useful if you're using a sword and shield, or two weapon fighting. I just don't buy that a wizard with a quarterstaff can't move and cast a spell in the same round because he needs to spend an action on shifting his grip on the weapon.
jage 03-01-08, 01:24 PM	I would say it's a free action because the spirit of free action (to me) is that it take no reckonable time in the game. Putting your hand back where it was shouldn't take a move action in my opinion. However if the DM really wants to have an exchange for doing this how about suggesting 5-foot step? In other words, your player can take his 5-foot step as normal in a round OR can use the 5-foot step to put his hand back where it was, but not both. I'm no rules lawyer but I think taking the full move action is a bit much.
DrMorganes 03-01-08, 02:37 PM	Let's consider some related information: Shifting a one-handed weapon to one's shield hand is a Move-equivalent action. This is most commonly performed by clerics needing to cast a spell. Drawing a weapon may be done as part of a Move Action if your BAB is +1 or better. Dropping a weapon of any sort is a free action. The SRD says that a two-handed weapon requires two hands to use. Not draw, not hold - use. With those things in mind, I would rule that taking your hand off a drawn and previously ready two-handed weapon to cast a spell is indeed a free action. Both hands were already on the weapon; you're not taking time to transfer your grip as in Item 1. Only one hand is required to actually hold it. I don't think one can reasonably argue that you can drop a two-handed weapon - that is, take BOTH hands off the weapon - as a free action, but it takes a Move Action or longer to remove ONE hand. Not only that, but under most circumstances you're not going to be casting a spell AND making a melee attack in the same round. This can happen in higher-level games, but if you're quibbling about that at Level 15, you're having other issues...
Shadow_Viper 03-01-08, 03:18 PM	I would call removing one hand from a Two-Handed Sword a free action. Replacing that hand on the sword's hilt should likewise be a free action. You've already drawn the weapon, so quick draw would not apply. All quickdraw allows a character to do, is to draw a weapon/s as a free action.
NordicBirch 03-02-08, 10:36 AM	CO boards to the rescue when needing the correct rules. :) The Duskblade Handbook refers to this ruling "Adjacent Squares and Reach Weapons: There are some tricks you can use to threaten those adjacent squares when you're using a reach weapon. If you're a monk, your unarmed attacks continue to threaten the squares adjacent to you. Even if you're not a monk, you can use a smaller weapon to threaten the adjacent squares. You'll have to hold the reach weapon in one hand and wield the smaller weapon in the other hand. Since most reach weapons are two-handed weapons, you're only holding onto the reach weapon, not wielding it, and you don't threaten an area with it. Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. Drawing the smaller weapon requires an action, but if you have the Quick Draw feat, it's a free action. Note that you can take a free action only during your turn. If you want to use this trick, you must draw the smaller weapon while it's still your turn. When you do so, you don't threaten any area with your larger weapon until you wield it in two hands again. To resume using the bigger weapon on your turn, you'll have to drop the smaller weapon (a free action) to free up your hand for the bigger weapon." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a You can remove a hand from a 2h weapon as a free action, do something else and put the hand back on the weapon as a free action. Pretty clear.
Bloodbat 03-02-08, 01:08 PM	I can see how a DM might rule that you cannot do both in the same round, even if both are a free action. As I recall, free actions are allowed, within reason. I think a DM can reasonably state that although both actions are free actions that the two of them combined become more than free actions in any one round. So, if I were to DM it that way, I might let you remove your hand as a free action and do whatever in round 1, and in round 2 I would let you replace your hand as a free action. It reminds me of a case when a player wanted to yell warnings to other characters. Yelling is a free action but yelling a dozen warnings to each of the other players adds up to something more than a free action.
Ebiris 03-03-08, 01:00 PM	I asked customer service: I searched the FAQ, and the closest I could find was a part about it being a move action for a cleric to swap his morningstar into the hand he's got his shield on. What I want to know, however, is what sort of action is it to switch between wielding a weapon 1-handed, and wielding it 2-handed, and whether it matters what size it is (ie, is there any difference between carrying a longsword in one hand and then switching to hold it with both, and doing the same for a greatsword, leaving aside the fact that the greatsword can't be swung with only one hand). There are no rules specifically for changing the way you hold a weapon. I would consider it a free action, unless there is something inhibiting you from using your arms. Any other circumstance type checks would be determined by your DM. There are certain feats, however, that give you bonuses for fighting with a one-handed weapon and not using a shield, such as Einhander (Player's Handbook II, p94.)
themocaw 03-03-08, 02:06 PM	Here is how I would adjudicate it as a DM: Quick Draw, in my opinion, is training in rapidly readying your weapon for combat, otherwise, it kinda sucks. It doesn't matter if your weapon is unreadied because it's in its scabbard at your hip or drawn and leaning against your backpack: as long as you don't need to do something like un peace-bond it or dig it out of your backpack or run across the room to get it, you can move your weapon from unready to ready in a single free action. When you take your left hand off your greatsword, and start casting, that's a free action. However, without monkey grip, greatswords are too big to fight one-handed, so you have basically unreadied your weapon: resting the flat on your shoulder, resting the point on the ground, leaning it against your upper arm, whatever. Putting your hand back on and reestablishing your combat stance is readying your weapon again. If you have quick draw, great, your weapon is back up and you can take that attack of opportunity. If you don't, your weapon is unreadied, and you need to wait until your next turn. Now let's pretend you have XWP in Bastard Sword. When you take your left hand off your bastard sword, that's a free action: You are shifting grip to your one-handed grip. You can swing a bastard sword one-handed, so you have not unreadied your weapon. Putting your hand back on and reestablishing your two-handed stance is switching back to two-handed stance, which is another free action.
Cartigan 03-03-08, 02:33 PM	CO boards to the rescue when needing the correct rules. :) The Duskblade Handbook refers to this ruling [...] Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. [...] The rules don't say it but that's the rule? Gee, I wish I could pull "rules" out of my magical hat and have people take them as gospel. However, it makes sense to be able to do that. You arn't attacking with your weapon and I doubt it is large enough to prevent you from being able to hold it in one hand. You should be able to hold it up the ~3 seconds it takes you to perform a standard action.
Jagyr Ebonwood 03-03-08, 02:57 PM	If this were my campaign, I'd allow this as a free action. It makes a kind of common sense to me. If I were a player in this campaign and the DM ruled it as >free action, I'd start using a one-handed weapon, and ask if I could rework any weapon specific feats into this new weapon, since I didn't know about the rule before.
NordicBirch 03-03-08, 06:17 PM	The rules don't say it but that's the rule? Gee, I wish I could pull "rules" out of my magical hat and have people take them as gospel. Then apply for a job at Wizards? I fail to see the point to this little gem but maybe it's just me. :)
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-03-08, 09:01 PM	Then apply for a job at Wizards? I fail to see the point to this little gem but maybe it's just me. :) He has a problem with made-up and written rules that aren't his made-up rules. CO knows the written rules better than he does and it upsets him when he can't get the last word and be taken as gospel himself. Well, looks like custserv disagrees with me on this one. I don't have a great deal of faith in custserv, having seen the inconsistency of their responses on some trickier subjects (power attack/leap attack with at two-hander, anyone?), but it seems pointless to drag it out any further here.
Khadmus 03-04-08, 06:11 PM	Though I agree that Customer Service is not to be trusted, I would also disagree with Shaggy Shags and say that it is a free action.
Cartigan 03-04-08, 08:23 PM	I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take your hand off of a weapon as an action that takes a dismissible amount of time. And put it back on as the same. You arn't putting the weapon anywhere and you are taking a fraction of time to do something.