Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bashman 10-23-06, 04:01 AM	Okay, our Epic Level Party is currently on a demi-plane that effectively functions as a trap for very powerful evil dragons. Part of the effects of this Demi Plane is that many spells don't work there. Freedom of Movement is one, as are any spell that involves planar travel or changing one's physical form. Summoning spells do not work either. Thus Gate spells, Summon Monster, and Polymorph spells do not function here. We have made it through four "tiers" of this plane, and are now in a great desert facing a blue dragon that has DR 20/Epic. At first, we were holding our own, with the party mage casting Enervation on the thing over and over again. However, it ran away, fully healed itself, and then returned, this time, with Anti-Magic Fields covering its entire body (it is so huge it had to cast multiple anti-magic fields to be covered by the spell effect). This is annoying for 2 reasons. For one thing, the DR 20/Epic makes this thing have DR20- vs our weapons. yes, I have an epic weapon, but attacking it will render it into a masterwork weapon, thanks to the antimagic field. So I can hit, and do no damage. Or I can power attack, and miss. It is hard enough to hit without worrying about power attack, and we are using the rules that say a 20 is not always a success... Reason 2 is that 95% of the spells that would be of ANY USE WHATSOEVER against a creature with Antimagic field up do not function on this plane. I cannot GATE in a Gold Dragon to fight it, nor can I Shapechange into something that can harm it. So physical attacks cannot hurt this thing, because the only thing that gets through its damage reduction cannot exist inside the anti-magic field. Our own attacks, because of the field, are severely weakened, essentially making us use normal weapons against it, without magically augmented strength, or anything. We cannot touch this thing. And Spells are just about Useless. The spells that DO work against antimagic field, like Wall of Force, specifically say that it has to be a flat plane. This means we cannot put it around him. If we put up one wall of force, he will just move away from it and attack from another angle. HELP!
Sapp 10-23-06, 04:14 AM	1. Instantaneous conjurations work on an antimagic fielded creature. Though it sounds like your DM cannot handle Epic level player options, so he just decided to Rule-Zero away everything. Gate is gone. I wouldn't be surprised if Orb, acid storm, and other instantaneous conjurations that could bypass the AMF can't be used, because of your "Reason 2". 2. A Gargantuan/Colossal Epic Dragon literally cannot cover itself with antimagic field. I don't think he gets to choose. The spell is "centered" on the creature. Unless you interpret "center" as "any part on its body that the dragon chooses" instead of as its center of mass. 3. Post errata, DR/Epic and DR/Magic have become Supernatural Abilities, and are thus, suppressed by antimagic field. Your weapons should work on it. The problem is that the dragon has a much easier time sundering your weapons. 4. If your DM houseruled that antimagic field can be "centered" wherever the dragon wants it to be centered... and that the dragon actually can cover its entire body with multiple antimagic field, then cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction on him. You have a high chance of ripping an opening somewhere on its body. 5. Allow it to keep one of the antimagic fields so that it can't retreat this time around.
bashman 10-23-06, 04:24 AM	Oh, I forgot the 3rd Thing that irks me-- The only spells allowed are from the PHB. So that gets rid of the Orb spells, etc that are available to use. Those were a good idea, but since only PhB spells are allowed, our options are REALLY limited.
Sapp 10-23-06, 04:33 AM	The only spells you are allowed... are in the PHB...? Wow. No epic spells... temporarily banning gate and shapechange... creative interpretation of antimagic field, emanations, and centering... suppressing your magic weapons, yet not suppressing the dragon's own damage reduction... What's next? Are you going to tell me Disjunction is temporarily banned? Whatever. Perhaps you can mention the errata on damage reduction, at least. If he is deliberately ignoring rules, then I suggest you change your target from the Epic Dragon to your DM.
bashman 10-23-06, 04:46 AM	No, I don't think he is trying to break the rules. He is actually practically Autistic about following the rules. The errata regarding DR as a supernatural ability is something that neither of us knew about until I read it here. I will be sure to take that up with him (and because he does not allow other spells, I will be sure to fight hard on that one, though I am sure he will agree to it). Suddenly this combat went from an unsolvable puzzle to a fight!
Sapp 10-23-06, 04:52 AM	DR X/slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning should be (Ex) DR X/adamantine should be (Ex) DR X/-- should be (Ex) DR X/silver or cold iron should be (Su) DR X/magic should be (Su) DR X/chaotic, lawful, holy, or unholy should be (Su) It doesn't include DR X/Epic, because it's only an errata to the MM, not the ELH, but it's intuitively the same as DR X/magic: supernatural. DR X/magic used to be scaled in 3.0E. DR X/+1, DR X/+2, etc. That Damage Reduction is Supernatural. It carries over to DR X/+6 and above. What logically follows is that DR X/Epic is also Supernatural from the conversion to 3.5E.
runestar 10-23-06, 07:05 AM	Oh, I forgot the 3rd Thing that irks me-- The only spells allowed are from the PHB. So that gets rid of the Orb spells, etc that are available to use. Those were a good idea, but since only PhB spells are allowed, our options are REALLY limited. That leaves you with...metamicked melf's acid arrows?:ahem:
Arturius1 10-23-06, 07:59 AM	That leaves you with...metamicked melf's acid arrows?:ahem: That's not so bad if the wizard/sorc has Intensify Spell. And if he is epic, then that's a great feat to have. 96 damage per attack, then 16 the next round. Not so bad considering the anti-magic field, and it's only a second level spell.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-23-06, 08:53 AM	Based on principle, I usually don't fight creatures that are prepared for me (regardless of class that I play). To me, this sounds like a great fight to walk away from. Come back later (preferrably just after the anti-magic fields go down), and then take your free licks while he tries to buff (Concentration checks, anyone?). "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day"
runestar 10-23-06, 10:21 AM	That's not so bad if the wizard/sorc has Intensify Spell. And if he is epic, then that's a great feat to have. 96 damage per attack, then 16 the next round. Not so bad considering the anti-magic field, and it's only a second level spell. I suppose its better than nothing, though against an epic dragon, it may as well be as good as nothing...:( "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day" Don't you mean "He who fights and tries to run away just dies tired?":P
SunTzuWarmaster 10-23-06, 10:32 AM	Never underestimate a good Epic-level Teleport Without Error
bashman 10-23-06, 12:53 PM	Never underestimate a good Epic-level Teleport Without Error Oh, I forgot, no teleportation is allowed on this plane either!
SunTzuWarmaster 10-23-06, 01:24 PM	Damn, I looked to see if you had that one.... Mass Haste would be a good call then.
Silverthumb128 10-23-06, 01:35 PM	Wait, if planar travel isn't allowed, how the heck did you get there?
Sapp 10-23-06, 02:27 PM	He should balance out this encounter with the next one... which should take place on a plane in which all monsters have DR 1000/-- and are only vulnerable to spells, and all monsters are large paragon rust monsters with divine bonus to the DC of their rusting abilities, a plane where melee classes can wear no pants. That should just about even things up.
Sapp 10-23-06, 02:29 PM	Wait, if planar travel isn't allowed, how the heck did you get there? Probably through either plane shift (which probably wouldn't be allowed or else they'd be able to retreat out of the plane) or a gate of some sort (which also isn't allowed). It's probably a fixed gate, generated by an artifact. That should solve the problem, since artifacts bypass most rules.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-23-06, 02:39 PM	How'd they get there? My money is on a one-way ticket (they got plane shifted to a region where plane shift/teleport can't be cast)
Sapp 10-23-06, 02:55 PM	How'd they get there? My money is on a one-way ticket (they got plane shifted to a region where plane shift/teleport can't be cast) You're forgetting gate. The OP should ask about shadow walk.
runestar 10-23-06, 10:11 PM	You could just say that some interplanar explosion opened a 1-way rift that sucked them into where they are now...:P
pokemaniacbill 10-24-06, 02:21 AM	Your fighters have a chance to shine. God help me your DM sounds like a real pain though. EX abilities are extremely helpful here. Start using the really strong abilities your fighter has. Say you're drinking a Potion of Haste or some such thing if you need to. Whatever the case, the fact is your weapon will be suppressed in the anti-magic field as far as I know. Don't know how far it emenates, but the Dragon is really limited. 90 percent of the combat options I'd use for a dragon are gone, he's just got his physical attacks. Which will suck, for you, but at least you can heal yourself. But then again I think you should just tell your DM that this is a ridiculous thing.
Sapp 10-24-06, 02:26 AM	Your fighters have a chance to shine. God help me your DM sounds like a real pain though. EX abilities are extremely helpful here. Start using the really strong abilities your fighter has. Say you're drinking a Potion of Haste or some such thing if you need to. Whatever the case, the fact is your weapon will be suppressed in the anti-magic field as far as I know. Don't know how far it emenates, but the Dragon is really limited. 90 percent of the combat options I'd use for a dragon are gone, he's just got his physical attacks. Which will suck, for you, but at least you can heal yourself. But then again I think you should just tell your DM that this is a ridiculous thing. Haste is being used to run from the battle, right? Otherwise, it would be suppressed when the dragon bases them, because, somehow, the antimagic field is not centered on the dragon itself, but its skin. The fighters don't have a chance to shine. Good chance that the dragon will have combat reflexes. As soon as they come close, their nonmagic (suppressed) weapons will be sundered with little difficulty. I hope the team enjoys losing epic level equipment to sunder... or losing their lives to a snatch/breath combo. It sounds like the DM wanted to give the noncasters a chance to shine, but underestimated the role that casters play in Epic. I'm pretty sure the casters can still handle it. They might be able to pull off some shrunken item tricks. If those get banned as well, then the DM is going to have to fumble the encounter to allow the noncasters to kill the dragon.
pokemaniacbill 10-24-06, 02:33 AM	I didn't consider Sunder. All I know is that the fight COULD go well. It requires weapon caddies, but for God's sakes. That's pretty much all I can consider. I'm trying to work on my anger management. My initial thought was to beat the DM with the manuals.
pokemaniacbill 10-24-06, 02:33 AM	The breath won't work with antimagic anyway. The ONLY thing he has workable is his physical stuff. Which sucks total... well, it sucks.
Sapp 10-24-06, 02:42 AM	You're right. Dragon breath is Supernatural. Still, I wouldn't say his "physical stuff" sucks. An Epic Dragon, even without buffs, is more than enough to beat unbuffed, nonmagical, practically-unarmed humanoids melee. Hopefully the DM doesn't ban too much more of the casters' power. They still have a chance with mordenkainen's disjunction (hopefully, that isn't banned) to disjoin a few antimagic fields. Then perhaps the noncasters can actually do something besides cowering.
Shaddris 10-24-06, 03:36 AM	Try disjunction followed by a feeblemind hightened as far as it will go:D (If you have an item that does int damage, dragon is toast in three rounds)
Sapp 10-24-06, 03:56 AM	That will not work because as long as his head is covered with an antimagic field, the feeblemind will not work (it's mind-affecting). Disjunction is not guaranteed to work on any individual field, it's just likely to work on at least one of them. Creatures inside of an antimagic field aren't affected by enchantments. The only reason I suggested Disjunction is to open up vulnerabilities. So that melee can possibly attack the vulnerable body part for about a round before the dragon moves slightly, covers them with another one of his antimagic fields (maybe the one on his tail or something), and then sunders their nonmagical weapons immediately. So after the disjunction the melee would get about a round or so to attack before losing their weapons. It can get pretty ridiculous when antimagic fields emanate from specific body parts instead of the center of the actual caster. It's unfortunate that it's an Epic game where Epic spells and the best 9th level spells are banned. It's going to be pretty tough. It's still possible, depending on how much more magic the DM decides to ban, but definitely a tough battle. I seriously hope this isn't a balancing act to screw the casters. I can't see the noncasters taking this alone, unless the DM fumbles intentionally. Is shrink item banned as well as the best 9th level spells and all epic spells? It's a PHB spell. Cast it on some colossal amunition (boulders, sharpened tree trunks, etc), and give it to the ranger or someone who can buff himself into an effective ranged unit (it's still a slim chance of hitting against approximate AC 47 with a nonmagical attack. Too bad both attacker and victim need to be outside of the AMF for enhancement bonuses to work on the attack). Alternatively, fly above the dragon and see if you can't drop a bag full of shrunken items on him. You could just say that some interplanar explosion opened a 1-way rift that sucked them into where they are now...:P Haha. Well, if all interplanar travel is banned, then I suppose shadow walk is out of the question as a method of retreat. How about polymorph? Is that banned as well as shapechange? If that was spared, the casters could polymorph themselves and their allies into burrowers, and go deep into the ground as a way to retreat. Dragons have no burrow speed and the dragon can't exactly cast with antimagic fields all over its body. Use that as a way to temporarily rest and wait for the antimagic fields to wear off.
Armoracia Rusticana 10-24-06, 01:50 PM	There is supposed to be an exit out of this plane. Or you are doomed to die of age right there. So you don't need to fight it, you must run, hide, sneak for exit. That's one. And, well, from which point of his body his magic originates? I mean, are your DM sure, thar a critter actually could do these castings? Whoa-whoa-whoa! I have suddenly recalled, that if a single square of his space affected with antimagic field, then his damned entire body likewise is! That is how area effects work. So, we have a Colossal Dragon, antimagicked, with AMF in the center of him, and a dragon is so big that field stays inside of him in its body centre? Stright RAW, that is. That is two. Try saying your DM 2, than, regardless of his ruling, follow 1.
bashman 10-24-06, 06:56 PM	That will not work because as long as his head is covered with an antimagic field, the feeblemind will not work (it's mind-affecting). Disjunction is not guaranteed to work on any individual field, it's just likely to work on at least one of them. Creatures inside of an antimagic field aren't affected by enchantments. The only reason I suggested Disjunction is to open up vulnerabilities. So that melee can possibly attack the vulnerable body part for about a round before the dragon moves slightly, covers them with another one of his antimagic fields (maybe the one on his tail or something), and then sunders their nonmagical weapons immediately. So after the disjunction the melee would get about a round or so to attack before losing their weapons. It can get pretty ridiculous when antimagic fields emanate from specific body parts instead of the center of the actual caster. It's unfortunate that it's an Epic game where Epic spells and the best 9th level spells are banned. It's going to be pretty tough. It's still possible, depending on how much more magic the DM decides to ban, but definitely a tough battle. I seriously hope this isn't a balancing act to screw the casters. I can't see the noncasters taking this alone, unless the DM fumbles intentionally. Is shrink item banned as well as the best 9th level spells and all epic spells? It's a PHB spell. Cast it on some colossal amunition (boulders, sharpened tree trunks, etc), and give it to the ranger or someone who can buff himself into an effective ranged unit (it's still a slim chance of hitting against approximate AC 47 with a nonmagical attack. Too bad both attacker and victim need to be outside of the AMF for enhancement bonuses to work on the attack). Alternatively, fly above the dragon and see if you can't drop a bag full of shrunken items on him. Haha. Well, if all interplanar travel is banned, then I suppose shadow walk is out of the question as a method of retreat. How about polymorph? Is that banned as well as shapechange? If that was spared, the casters could polymorph themselves and their allies into burrowers, and go deep into the ground as a way to retreat. Dragons have no burrow speed and the dragon can't exactly cast with antimagic fields all over its body. Use that as a way to temporarily rest and wait for the antimagic fields to wear off. Actually, Blue dragons do have burrow speeds. Also, the duration of antimagic field is long!
Sapp 10-24-06, 08:01 PM	Actually, Blue dragons do have burrow speeds. Also, the duration of antimagic field is long! Blue dragon... I must have missed that. Why don't you give us a list of every single spell banned. All we know now is that spells are restricted to PHB spells (meaning not even Epic spells are allowed for this epic game... meanwhile, the warrior PCs still get their epic weapons)... minus shapechange, gate, teleport, dimension door, plane shift, greater teleport, etc... Also, provide us a list of the PCs, their classes, PrCs, and weapons. Just a basic rundown.
Sapp 10-24-06, 08:03 PM	Actually, Blue dragons do have burrow speeds. Also, the duration of antimagic field is long! I must have missed that. Why don't you give us a list of every single spell banned. All we know now is that spells are restricted to PHB spells (meaning not even Epic spells are allowed for this epic game... meanwhile, the warrior PCs still get their epic weapons)... minus shapechange, gate, teleport, dimension door, plane shift, greater teleport, etc... Also, provide us a list of the PCs, their classes, PrCs, and weapons. Just a basic rundown. Also, tell us what exactly about the plane is preventing teleportations and planar travel. Is it a forbiddance? Can it be disjoined?
bashman 10-25-06, 12:32 AM	Actually, Epic spells are allowed. However, I don't have any. I am a Level 20 Favored Soul/Paladin 6/Contemplative 1, and did not want to spend the XP for an epic spell (i'd rather gain the level and all those extra domain spells from contemplative) The player with epic spells did not show up last week. There is a wizard, who did show last week, but I am not sure what epic spells he has. Are you saying that AMF does nothing against Epic spells?
NoldorForce 10-25-06, 12:54 AM	AMFs have a chance of working against epic spells...but only a chance.Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.My suggestions on what to do? Summon lots of arrow demons, perhaps. They don't hit too well, but you could certainly buff them to the point where they do hit.
Sapp 10-25-06, 01:35 AM	Having read through your first post more carefully, I'm wondering how you are all still alive. You haven't completely exhausted your spells? Since all forms of extraplanar travel and teleportation are banned, and shapechange is banned, and shadow walk is also probably banned since it relies on the plane of shadow... You're a divine caster. Do you have wind walk? If not that, miracle? Yes, I'm sure you have at least Miracle. Cast a miraculous wind walk and retreat. Out of the sight of this blue dragon. Travel for a few hours, then burrow underground, tell the wizard to bust out his mind blanks, get a private sanctum set up. Maybe a forbiddance and some other wards and alarms as well. Do this before the blue dragon's antimagic field duration expires... before he can start casting discern location or whatever other divinations he might have. Rest and recover.
bashman 10-25-06, 10:51 AM	Any spell that alters a physical form cannot work here. Polymorph, enlarge person, wind walk, etc are all banned. Wind walk is one of my favorite spells that I used to use on a continual basis, but is useless on this plane. How we got here? We went through the door. There is a door that allows you to get to each demi-plane. We can pretty likely leave if we want to, but I want to beat this thing. It is in my nature, being a Favored Soul of Bahumut... (So I can try and convert it later!)
Armoracia Rusticana 10-25-06, 02:09 PM	Leave, get prepared, then kill it. You know immunities, disjunctions, banes, time stops... lots of fun.
pokemaniacbill 10-25-06, 07:01 PM	Use a Miracle to ask for help evening this playing field. This is horrendous.