Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir Lunchalot 05-23-05, 03:34 AM	Howdy. this has been bugging me for a while. One of my friends insists that the lawful neutral and chaotic neutral alignments are exactly the same. chaotic neutral characters do what they want to. and all a lawful neutral character has to declare is that his personal code is 'I do what I want'. I know this is utter nonsense, for that 'code' is in itself a declaration of chaotic nature, but these arguments are useless. is it a simple matter of me not being forceful enough, or are there other, better arguments I can use?
Circon 05-23-05, 03:53 AM	Just tell him that it's utter nonsense. A lawful character needs a lot more code than that, and lawful characters are generally a lot more predictable. He can declare it a personal code all he wants. Just tell him "The Demon declares that it's not evil, hence, you cannot smite it" or something to that effect.
McAbendroth 05-23-05, 04:07 AM	He can declare it a personal code all he wants. Just tell him "The Demon declares that it's not evil, hence, you cannot smite it" or something to that effect. Heh. That's great.
Greyman 05-23-05, 04:23 AM	"I do what I want to" is not a code, it's a total lack of a code. A lawful code is set of behaviour that forms a higher standard to which the character holds herself accountable. It's a codified system of honour which the character willingly imposes upon herself. It's the ethical authority by which the character judges the righteousness of her choices. It is a totally non-arbitary set of rules that has been tried and tested by her society and culture for ages of history. The character trusts these codified traditions to guide her better than her baser instincts. It is something that is not lightly reevaluated, but requires deep and profound thought before being changed in the slightest way to adapt to different circumstances. If a so-called code does none of this, it is simply not a lawful code.
Draco Strang 05-23-05, 10:26 AM	Yea, the whole reason for a personal code is so that you have something better to aspire towards. "Doing what you want" isn't a lofty goal, it's a lack of any long-term vision or discipline, which fits CN perfectly. LN needs a code better that is more definitive than "I do what I want". You're right and your friend is wrong.
Kintaran 05-23-05, 02:34 PM	It goes much deeper than than merely stating some arbitrary code. A lawful character has to have some sort of outlook that actually imposes some restrictions. Even if those restrictions are things that the individual would never consider doing, they are still there. The code does not need to be formally stated, but it has to show in their outlook and attitude. A fundamentally lawful character is predictable, reliable, and consistent. A chaotic one tends to waffle on various issues and allow for random chance to influence their behaviour. When confronted by two equally viable options, the lawful would decide which best suited his code, while the chaotic might choose on impulse or by coin flip. Compare formians or modrons to slaadi. The former have a strictly regimented existence where each individual's place, duty, and identity are regulated by formal authority. Slaadi are so inherently chaotic that no two are the same (except by pure random chance). They do what they want, while formians and modrons do what they must.
Callista 05-23-05, 02:43 PM	*sigh* Lawful = External Motivation Chaotic = Internal Motivation Simple as that...
JezzTheLame 05-23-05, 02:48 PM	all characters do what they want to, all alignments. A paladin wants to help people. A blackguard wants to hurt people. All alignments do what they want, it's what they want to do that decides alignment
Callista 05-23-05, 03:27 PM	Exactly. Why be a paladin if you don't *want* to be LG? Why be a necromancer if you don't want to be NE? Law/Chaos is, I think, a matter of what motivates a person, like I said before. If they think in the long run, devote themselves to a code or a way of life or a lord or country, then they're probably Lawful. If they follow their heart, do what feels right, go by gut feelings and hunches, then they're probably Chaotic, especially if they also don't like being told what to do by someone they don't already know and like. Law/Chaos: Motivation. Good/Evil: Action. Just my two cents.
Santrilla 05-23-05, 03:45 PM	Law/Chaos: Motivation. Good/Evil: Action. Just my two cents. You make a very good point, but I feel it should be clarified: Good/Evil: Intention.
Kintaran 05-23-05, 06:20 PM	Exactly. Why be a paladin if you don't *want* to be LG? Why be a necromancer if you don't want to be NE? Not all necromancers are evil. Some are good. It is all about intent. Some see the study of necromancy as fighting fire with fire. After all, spells like disrupt undead and undeath to death are necromantic. I just dislike the automatic necromancy=evil association that people form.
Santrilla 05-23-05, 06:42 PM	Not all necromancers are evil. Some are good. It is all about intent. Some see the study of necromancy as fighting fire with fire. After all, spells like disrupt undead and undeath to death are necromantic. I just dislike the automatic necromancy=evil association that people form. Butbutbut the BoVD says that Necromancy is EVILz0r!!!1 Heh. Just kidding. :)
Lincoln Hills 05-23-05, 06:53 PM	...One of my friends insists that the lawful neutral and chaotic neutral alignments are exactly the same... I know this is utter nonsense, for that 'code' is in itself a declaration of chaotic nature, but these arguments are useless... You didn't mention whether you are a DM dealing with a player, or a player dealing with another player. If you're just another member of the group, shrug and say, "I disagree." Your friend can argue the statement, "You are wrong," but he cannot argue with "I disagree." Keep it up until he grows bored: from what you've told us, I'd imagine he is only arguing the point because he knows it will irritate you. If you're the DM, on the other hand, shrug and say, "I disagree - and in my campaign, my interpretation of the alignments is the one you need to worry about. So stick to your alignment or prepare for the usual penalties." If he attempts to argue the point, ask if he's done yet. It's very rude, yes, but so is, "Neutral good is the same as neutral evil! You're just pretending to like people."
ehrin 05-23-05, 07:38 PM	While i tend to Agree with Santrilla about good/evil being intention, in DnD, it is also objectively defined as action. Killing children, helpless infants, and innocents is never good, no matter your intentions. Killing an innocent with the best of intentions, even to save a world, is never "good" in DnD.
Templetroll 05-23-05, 08:49 PM	Not all necromancers are evil. Some are good. It is all about intent. Some see the study of necromancy as fighting fire with fire. After all, spells like disrupt undead and undeath to death are necromantic. I just dislike the automatic necromancy=evil association that people form. Yeah, imagine a necromancer like Grissom from CSI. He studies death and is facinated by bugs. he'd be a freaky necro-druid. :)