Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ridiculous 02-05-04, 07:04 AM	Here's the situation: We're a group of fifth level characters (probably level 6 by the time we fight the BBEG). The group is composed of a dwarf fighter, a human cleric, human rogue, and we plan to add a player, who's probably gonna play a wizard. The question is: The BBEG is a barbarian/fist of hextor (probably a couple levels of clerics, too.) level 14 or so. With rage, spells and other stuff he is able to boost is strenght enormously. I thought we could let him boost his strenght while the cleric boosts our dwarf and then cast dispel magic on him (and possibly ray of enfeeblement). Any help and/or other suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Note: we are playing 3.0
Kash Darreder 02-05-04, 08:28 AM	Run. Run away as fast as you can!!! Not a way to defeat the vile foe, but a way to stay alive until you are strong enough to defeat him. If you absolutely must fight him, then I suggest the method you allready mentioned yourself along wiht lots of flanking (Rogue sneakattacks) and hold spells or any other spells or items that restrict the BBEG's movement and mobility. A possibility if you have lenient DM, with an eye out for new possibilities, is to use Shrink Item or a similar spell on the villains armor WHILE HE IS WEARING IT. Worked for me once in 2E. An Item spell reduces stuff so much that our opponent simply went squish when I shrunk his platemail. KD
Arakano 02-05-04, 08:37 AM	BARBARIAN and FIST OF HEXTOR? Well, the first Barbarian I met who is a dedicated servant to a lawful deity (the god of tyranny, mind you). But whatever. I think you should pray and try your best. Btw, calm emotions (or how is this friggin spell named?), if you are able to cast it, ends a barbarian rage... ;) Your main problem will be that this BBEG will probably make his saves against your spells, and "dispel magic" probably won´t work either. Hm. Tough stuff.
the_heart 02-05-04, 09:09 AM	hmmm! level 6 party against level 14+ BBEG well, the DMG suggests that players get no XP for encounters with an EL higher than the party by more than 8 levels, as the only way to defeat such is with direct DM intervention. run away! better yet, don't go near enough that running becomes necessary. pray that your DM has a plan. sorry, i don't think there is anything we can realistically suggest that will help. that encounter is outside all normal parameters.
CaoSlayer 02-05-04, 09:53 AM	Originally posted by ridiculous The question is: The BBEG is a barbarian/fist of hextor (probably a couple levels of clerics, too.) Note: we are playing 3.0 he is totally grease´s fodder. he surely will have a pity reflexes save, cast grease in this weapon (or in this feet) and stab him until dead.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-05-04, 03:15 PM	From the 3.5 SRD A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). So you don't have to worry about this Fist of Hextor raging, at any rate. A Fist of Hextor must be lawful to qualify for the PrC, and if he becomes un-lawful afterwards he loses all Fist of Hextor abilities. A 6th-level party fighting a 14th-level BBEG? You're screwed, unless you all roll a series of natural twenties. Ray of Enfeeblement would probably keep him from doing as much damage as he would otherwise do, but unless your DM has given all of you ub3r l337 equipment you won't survive. If this is for your DM to showboat the fact that he can toy with your characters before having the BBEG die (in a way none of you could have ever accomplished) or run away (when he has you all at death's door) or get smitten by a (DM)NPC who just "happens" to arrive....then I'm sorry for you. :( On the topic of real tactics, casting spells that require Will saves to resist (Hold Person is a good one -- have your DM roll the saves out in the open) or have no saving throw (Scorching Ray or Ray of Enfeeblement) is probably your best bet. Scorching Ray is better than Melf's Acid Arrow unless he has an item that grants fire resistance. Have your cleric and/or wizard summon creatures to help flank the BBEG so your rogue gets sneak attack damage. Even if the creatures get killed after the first few rounds, those are hits that your fighter isn't taking. 14th-level, though.....good luck.
StormKnight 02-05-04, 03:31 PM	You will be level 6 and he is level 14? Find weaknesses. Research him thoroughly. Any way you can. Find his enemies; anyone who can help you when it comes down to it. Find out what his strengths are and do your best to neutralize them. Try to fight on your terms. If he's an unstoppable beast in melee, try to ambush him in a situation where you can rain arrows on spells on him and he can't even get to you. Don't be afraid to use trickery and deception. Somehow its the only way to beat someone more powerful. Maybe you can lure him into the cave of an ancient, easily annoyed dragon and then hide! :D He sounds like he probably likes charging and bull-rushing and such. Maybe a really high cliff with one PC as bait and a grease spell on the ground? (Plus a Ring of Feather Fall to keep bait PC from going splat as well).
PhaedrusXY 02-05-04, 04:25 PM	If he rages, just stay away from him and pester him with missle weapons until it wears off. Use spells and effects to hamper his mobility (Web, caltrops, tanglefoot bags, etc). As suggested, a simple Grease spell could be miraculous for you. If you have access to the Savage Species book, buff your party up with the Blindsight spell then keep the area covered with Obscuring Mist and Darkness spells. You need to use smart tactics. If you try to just walk up and duke it out with him, you will die. But it sounds like he's more of a melee bruiser than a cleric, so you just need to immobilize him and refuse to let him use his large melee advantage. If you use Forgotten Realms material, the Blacklight spell is fantastic too. Especially combined with the already mentioned Blindsight spell.
mad_caper 02-05-04, 04:51 PM	Blindsight doesn't allow you to see in Darkness, unless that's been changed in 3.5. If you must get in melee with him, definately flank him as much as possible. Instead of causing damage, have your wizard do stuff to mess with him. Maybe hold person, as has been suggested, any spells that take away his sight, improved invisibility (or regular) for your rogue. If you're able to attack when YOU want, and not when HE wants, buff BEFORE you attack so he is stuck un-buffed, or has to waste rounds buffing himself. Use weighted dice so you can 20-20-20 him?
PhaedrusXY 02-05-04, 04:54 PM	Originally posted by mad_caper Blindsight doesn't allow you to see in Darkness, unless that's been changed in 3.5. Yes it does, and it always has. Blindsight (Ex): This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
ridiculous 02-05-04, 05:24 PM	Good ideas, keep em coming! And for the flanking, doesn't a barbarian get uncanny dodge (prevents flanking) at like, level 5? I thought of a darkness+blindfight (the fighter has blindfight) combination. A 50% miss chance for him=good for us... The BBEG is a beast in melee, with low AC but vey high HP and str... meaning arrows won't do much damage per se, but we always could use con and/or str draining poison on the arrows...
PhaedrusXY 02-05-04, 06:35 PM	Here is what I was thinking. Make potions of Levitate and Blindsight for everyone beforehand. Drink them and ambush him with missle weapons. When he runs up, someone cast Obscuring Mist or Darkness, and the party Levitates up and pelts him with arrows. Have someone throw a bunch of caltrops all over the place as the party levitates, and hit him with a bunch of tanglefoot bags. It should take him a round or two to even know what the heck is going on. Pelt him for a round or two (missle weapons, Melf's Acid Arrows, etc), then everyone levitates up even further and the wizard hits the area with a Web. He will be severly hampered in moving. Continue hitting him with area affects and missle weapons until he's dead. The Web will provide him with cover though, so it could be a benefit for him as he takes a round or two to heal himself. So don't use it unless you really need to immoblize him. You could use the same strategy if he gets the jump on your party, but he will likely kill someone in the round it takes to get the Obscuring Mist/Darkness off and for everyone to quaff their potions.
E-Vile 02-05-04, 09:48 PM	First buy some shovels and daggers Dig a small pit for every partymember you have. Lie down in it. Slice your throats Seriously you have no chance unless you can arrange for mitigating factors, such as laying traps for him, hiring mercenaries, him having a major weakness etc.... If you have the time and money prepare a lot of traps and stage a massive ambush (using the mentioned mercs), when the monster guy approaches cast grease, darkness, glitterdust any any other nasty spell you have which might delay him, then attack him using only ranged combat (barbarian+FoH cleave/great cleave anyone?), each archer defended by a tank with towershield and spear.
PhaedrusXY 02-05-04, 10:12 PM	We killed a minotaur with barbarian levels in a game I play in. His CR was 18+, and our average party level was 12. He also had medusas with him (3 I think) and they were all riding on chimeras when they flew up. The first time we ran into them, they kicked the utter crap out of us. We had two or three people turned to stone, and one PC killed outright. Luckily one of the clerics and the wizard escaped (Obscuring Mist + Dimension Door). Later, those two came back and unpetrified most of us. The dead PC couldn't be rez'd till later (long story), and the bad guys took the "statue" of our best melee fighter as a trophy. (Our party is a bit bigger than average, I think we had 5 PCs and two regular NPCs in it at the time, and a whole platoon of musketeers when we needed to call on them). The next time, we set up an ambush for them and had a bunch of low level NPCs with muskets with us, and we just refused to let the minotaur get a full attack on anyone. If he closed with any of us, we got the hell away from him. We used all kinds of mobility spells (Dimension Door, Expeditions Retreat, etc) and battlefield control spells (Obscuring Mists, Entangle, etc). It took a while, but eventually we dropped him. Higher level fighter types are not invulnerable to attacks by lower level characters. The lower level guys just need to make sure that they outnumber the high level guy heavily, and stack the odds greatly in their favor somehow, as E-vile stated. Yeah, if you just blunder into the guy, or he ambushes YOU, then you should run like hell because you will die. But if you lay a well prepared ambush for him, you can kill him. If he was a high level primary caster, then it would be a different story...
SmiloDan 02-06-04, 10:14 AM	We had a party of 8 4th or 5th level PCs that took out a Balor Tanar'ri with a weird ice template. We had a celestial lammasu helping us, and an NPC shaman type that halved the DR and SR of the tanar'ri, but we did it. A balor in 3.0 was CR 18, I think. Of course, 6 of us died when the balor exploded, but what do you expect? My barbarian/fighter disarmed the fiend and stole its +1 frost greataxe. Nice. And we didn't even have great tactics. Just lots of luck, and DM also without tactics. I mean, demons can teleport at will! I would just pop in and out all over the place! And if I was hurt, I'd teleport to some random temple, steal some potions, then come back and kick some more :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:.
SiegeSage 02-06-04, 11:20 AM	Most Barbarians don't use missle weapons while raging - so why not just use fly and/or spider climb to move out of his reach, then pelt him with missle weapons of all varieties? Stop his movement and/or casting with tanglefoot bags, marbles, and thunderstones. Hurt him with arrows/spells with no save/acid/alch fire. Shouldn't take too long if you have a competent archer or two, and a wizard/sorc to boot. A final option is to have the rogue sneak up on the BBEG and Coup de grace him/her while sleeping.
SiegeSage 02-06-04, 11:20 AM
green_yawgmoth 02-07-04, 01:56 AM	Originally posted by Kash Darreder A possibility if you have lenient DM, with an eye out for new possibilities, is to use Shrink Item or a similar spell on the villains armor WHILE HE IS WEARING IT. Worked for me once in 2E. An Item spell reduces stuff so much that our opponent simply went squish when I shrunk his platemail. KD I did that in a different game before. I also saw someone use a teleport-like effect to teleport one henchman into another. It was not a pretty sight; but it did take out 2 enemies with one spell! :D
KAPtain Braindead 02-07-04, 02:49 AM	What diety does your cleric worship? If it is diametricly opposed to Hextor, you might seek a boon. As pointed out above, the BBEG-as desribed-is flawed. Be ready to pounce on your DM if he plays outside of the rules. Just be respectful and calm. Simply ask for explainations of how the BBEG is able to do the impossibe. Point out errors as you discover them. A quick revision always favors the party.
bingers 02-07-04, 09:11 AM	Our party has found the best way to take down big things is to increase our own effectiveness rather than decrease our opponents. Our party contains a level 6/7 elven ranger/cleric, a level 7/7 elven ranger/druid, a level 7 dwarf fighter, a level 10 human thief and a level 6/6 half-elven fighter/mage (ME). When we walked into a room to find a dracoliche. I cast blur on myself and haste on the party (except the dwarf who suffered from dragon fear), ranger cleric cast protection from evil on the ranger/druid, me and him. After that we went in and dropped it in three rounds. We were all pretty battered at the end of it (I was pretty battered to start with having been tortured before I joined the adventure) but everybody was still alive. Just for reference the dracoliche was based on an adult red dragon and we were using version 2. If you don't have protective spells in your books I would start asking you DM why, quite possibly he's out to enjoy himself and doesn't care about how much fun you guys have in the mean time.
Phist 02-07-04, 04:15 PM	Find and expliot loopholes. This may be borderline cheating but you need all the help you can get. Whoever in you party has the highest melee attack bonus, get them a trip weapon. If the BBEG's AC is really that low you'll have nearly 100% chance of tripping him. Getting up is a full round action so if you trip him every time you get the chance he you be able to touch you. Then just surround him with other party members so they always get an AOO and their regular attack every turn.
PhaedrusXY 02-07-04, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by Phist Find and expliot loopholes. This may be borderline cheating but you need all the help you can get. Whoever in you party has the highest melee attack bonus, get them a trip weapon. If the BBEG's AC is really that low you'll have nearly 100% chance of tripping him. Getting up is a full round action so if you trip him every time you get the chance he you be able to touch you. Then just surround him with other party members so they always get an AOO and their regular attack every turn. Problems with this: 1) Getting up is not a full round action. It is a Move Equivalent Action. Also, you can cast spells, attack, and do just about anything else while prone, you just get penalties. 2) Tripping is done by an opposed Strength check (with modifiers). It has very little to do with the opponents AC or the attackers BAB. They have to make a melee touch attack to start the trip, but on the actual opposed roll neither of these things come into play. #2 is to the party's advantage actually, as the NPC's BAB will probably higher than any PC's. If you give the biggest, strongest PC in the group a guisarme and buff him up with Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person, he'll probably have a good chance of winning an opposed trip check unless the BBEG is specifically built to be good at tripping. So while this is still a decent suggestion, it isn't nearly as good as Phist seems to think it is.
ezze88 02-07-04, 11:40 PM	there cant be a DM there that dumb 2 put that 2 a level 6 party:eek:
myri 02-08-04, 12:20 AM	If you can, get the barbarian to rage and use his hextor abilities. After he's done so, do everything you can to impare his mobility and then run like heck until the rage and hextor abilities wear off. Anything that slows him down - animate rope, entangle, grease spells, tanglefoot bags, flash pellets - throw it all at him! If you can choose the sight of the battle, make traps of your own - deadfalls, pit traps and so on. At that point your still buffed (hopefully :) and he's winded. If your DM is peeved by your tactics, point out that you'd all wind up dead in a straight on fight so you have to be crafty. Another idea just occured to me: Hire some NPC help. Gather up some of his enemies if you can, or the town guard or any warm (or cold if your alignment allows it :) bodies you can.
Perseus 02-08-04, 05:46 AM	You could have your new wizard try using the spell 'reduce person' on him to knock him down a bit. It's only first level I believe.
ridiculous 02-08-04, 07:48 AM	good ideas... we'll probably find some friends in town to help us, like some of you suggested... and I love the grease idea :)