Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zareneth 05-02-06, 08:28 PM	My DM has just ruled that all players in our campaign must be a race and class from the PHB, as well as use equipment and such ONLY from the PHB. He's saying this because we're all fairly new and he wants it to be fair, because some people dont have as good of an understanding of it as others. Well, here's who'll be playing. Player 1(Me)- PHB, XPH, CW, CArcane, CAdventurer, Savage Species, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny Player 2- PHB, OA, Races of Stone Player 3- PHB, Races of Stone Player 4-PHB Player 5-(we made his character for him) Player 6-(SRD) So, this being said, everyone except player 4 and 5 have access to things outside of the PHB, and honestly, it's not that complicated, things outside of the PHB might take five or so minutes to explain or read over and they know what it is/does. I've tried everything with my DM, and its not working, please help.
Whim 05-02-06, 08:39 PM	Just go with it. It doesn't sound like the DM wants to change his mind, so don't make him. Also, how much does the DM know about classes and races that aren't in the PHB? It's difficult to keep up with too many specialized races and classes as a DM, especially if you're not very experienced as one. Besides, it really is more fair to stick with the basics, I think. When you get into the complex stuff, you very easily can run into party imbalance and such. The DMs scenario may also become somewhat broken by the inclusion of odd classes and races--depending on the abilities used, that is.
The_Rose 05-02-06, 08:42 PM	perhaps he doesn't want you getting all the "uber-1337 g33r and 4b1l1733z" that come with other books. I know personally that having a ninja and a swashbuckler in my party definately shakes up game balance.
Reversefigure4 05-02-06, 08:54 PM	That's at least 50% of your group that doesn't have access to anything else but the PHB (the SRD doesn't cover the same things as all the other books you've listed), not to mention what the DM may or may not have. DnD isn't particularly easy to learn, and it's a heck of a lot easier if you only have to worry about the basics, rather than 50 extra classes and feats from various books. Even if it's only 5 minutes to explain a new concept, and everyone in the group grasps it instantly, that's still 5 minutes out of your game for each new class, each new skill, each new feat, etc, etc. That's adding up to a lot of time. I suspect you have a specific build in mind that falls outside the PHB. Well, too bad. The game is quite playable with just PHB, so learn to live with it.
Zareneth 05-02-06, 09:30 PM	Well i understand that, but he's having problems with me being a HALF-DROW. It's JUST a halfelf with darkvision and drow blood.
Bob Loblaw 05-02-06, 09:35 PM	I have to support your DM here. If you have several new players, you should be supportive of them. They don't need to see a ton of extras. That will confuse them. You should take your skills, make a killer character with just the PHB, and show them that the basics are all anyone needs. While you may have a firm grasp of the rules and concepts, they do not. They don't need to get bogged down in learning too much. If everyone uses the same rules, then they are going to see those rules in play more often and learn them faster. If I were the DM, I would suggest the same thing. In fact, I tell all the new DMs I game with to limit us to only the PHB. Everyone in my group has access to almost every book. Everyone in my group has been gaming for at least 10 years with one of us at 27 years. We also support new gamers and DMs by not overloading them. Put your pride in the forefront and show them what you can really do, even with limits.
Balseraph 05-02-06, 10:27 PM	I'm with the DM here too, sorry. It's not that hard to play something from the core books really. I know people who will happily use any other books, even from other developers with a gleeful disregard for balance. I automatically assume that nothing that isn't in the PHB is available without DM approval. Yes, that does include magic items and special materials in my mind. Usually the DM allows them quite happily, but I always take care to ask. Prestige classes and alternate core classes are right out without specific DM attention and discourse over how they fit into his/her game.
celtredleg 05-02-06, 11:53 PM	Well i understand that, but he's having problems with me being a HALF-DROW. It's JUST a halfelf with darkvision and drow blood. If it is really just a halfelf, then play a halfelf. No big difference you claim, so then it should be no big difference. And besides, if you let in that book, you let in half dragon, celestial, fiend as well. Not to mention all sorts of dragons and giants and other stuff the average DM definatly wont let in. Deal with it, or run your own game.
Nate Jones 05-03-06, 12:33 AM	Is darkvision that important to your character concept? Because otherwise, I see no flavor restrictions in just playing a dark skinned half-elf. I too must side with the DM, and would commend him on standing his ground. It may be a logical fallacy, but nevertheless, all too frequently do you see new DM's open the door an inch, and then be over run by a mile.
Dragonsblood 05-03-06, 01:38 AM	I agree with the DM. My group doesn't use any suppliments, not even psionics or the complete series. It works out great - all you really need to have a good time are the PHB, DMG, and MM. Suppliments needlessly complicate things.
the dmg 05-03-06, 01:40 AM	My DM has just ruled that all players in our campaign must be a race and class from the PHB, as well as use equipment and such ONLY from the PHB. He's saying this because we're all fairly new and he wants it to be fair, because some people dont have as good of an understanding of it as others. Your DM is very smart. It will help to learn the ropes of DnD to become experienced players later down the road.
Yak of Darkness 05-03-06, 02:10 AM	Besides, it really is more fair to stick with the basics, I think. When you get into the complex stuff, you very easily can run into party imbalance and such.perhaps he doesn't want you getting all the "uber-1337 g33r and 4b1l1733z" that come with other books. I know personally that having a ninja and a swashbuckler in my party definately shakes up game balance.It always amazes me how strong the idea of "core = balance; splatbooks = unbalanced" is, in the face of all sense and rationality. But hey, one can refer to splatbooks in leet speak, that not only means they're unbalanced, but that the commenter made his point intelligently! :rolleyes: I mean a swashbuckler is shaking up game balance? In a game that already (because they're core) allows clerics, druids, and wizards? How? No . . . seriously . . . how? Now I can understand a DM wanting to limit things for new players just getting started (D&D can be pretty overwhelming to learn, and fewer options make everything a little bit easier to wrap your mind around). And I can see thinking it's unfair to allow some players access to other books, while the newbies stick with the Core (although a mature group should be able to accept this with little problem . . . especially if the new players want to avoid being swamped with options right away, while having the ability to expand on what they use as they get more experience with the game). But sticking to the Core for balance reasons is a big, steaming pile of crap that CoDzilla dropped on Tokyo.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-03-06, 02:25 AM	There is no reason he has to let youuse other books simply because you went and bought new books. Play a half elf and take Blind Fighting. done and done. Core isn't balanced, but thats no reason to open the floodgates for no apprent reason. Especially since normal people don't play CoDzilla while Complete Divine, for example, just shovels in the Divine Feats.
EyeontheMountain 05-03-06, 03:30 AM	Well i understand that, but he's having problems with me being a HALF-DROW. It's JUST a halfelf with darkvision and drow blood. I hate to be rude, but players who want to 'just open the door a bit' and then come up with Half-drow whatever powermongering really make me tired. Not tired enough to show them to door, though. If your DM wants to limit options, go with it. Ask him if you can play a half elf with dark skin, and call yourself a half-drow. Since half your group is inexperienced it would be the right thing to do, to go with the DM.
Tytalus 05-03-06, 03:46 AM	perhaps he doesn't want you getting all the "uber-1337 g33r and 4b1l1733z" that come with other books. I know personally that having a ninja and a swashbuckler in my party definately shakes up game balance. Whow, just whow. Ninja and swashbuckler shaking up game balance when you have clerics, druids, and wizards? Are you sure you are playing D&D? Or are you implying they are underpowered and therefore unbalancing? I hate to be rude, but players who want to 'just open the door a bit' and then come up with Half-drow whatever powermongering really make me tired. Half-drow and powermongering? What are you talking about? It's clearly way behind the PHB favorites like humans (feat, skill points), dwarves, elves etc. After all, it's merely adding darkvision to what's arguably the worst PHB race for the cost of massive negative role-playing implications. No offense, but "half-drow = powermongering" is utter nonsense.
Whim 05-03-06, 08:40 AM	It always amazes me how strong the idea of "core = balance; splatbooks = unbalanced" is, in the face of all sense and rationality. But hey, one can refer to splatbooks in leet speak, that not only means they're unbalanced, but that the commenter made his point intelligently! :rolleyes: I mean a swashbuckler is shaking up game balance? In a game that already (because they're core) allows clerics, druids, and wizards? How? No . . . seriously . . . how? Now I can understand a DM wanting to limit things for new players just getting started (D&D can be pretty overwhelming to learn, and fewer options make everything a little bit easier to wrap your mind around). And I can see thinking it's unfair to allow some players access to other books, while the newbies stick with the Core (although a mature group should be able to accept this with little problem . . . especially if the new players want to avoid being swamped with options right away, while having the ability to expand on what they use as they get more experience with the game). But sticking to the Core for balance reasons is a big, steaming pile of crap that CoDzilla dropped on Tokyo. Eh...personally, I wasn't getting at something like a Swashbuckler or Ninja or whatever being the cause of imbalance. I was refering more to the floodgate of possibilities that can start to open when DMs allow things past the basic rules. No, a pirate doesn't cause any balance issues, necessarily, but I'd think that a werewolf, celestial, or half-dragon would.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-03-06, 08:43 AM	Lycanthropes and half-dragons actually tend to be crap from a powergaming perspective, if the ECL rules are observed. Half-celestials balance out pretty decently, not too strong and not too weak, full-on celestials tend not to be intended for play and aren't stellar when they are used. Where'd you get the idea to use those as examples, anyway? :confused: OP: Don't bother, if the DM wants core-only, just be core-only, it's not that hard. If you want half-drow so badly, there's already a core race for that, it's called half-elf and they don't specify which elf your elf half is.
Whim 05-03-06, 08:46 AM	Well i understand that, but he's having problems with me being a HALF-DROW. It's JUST a halfelf with darkvision and drow blood. Go ahead and make your half-drow (if you haven't alread) and just save him for a later scenario or perhaps even for later on down the road in the scenario you're playing now. As people have already said, there's no reason why you shouldn't just play a half-elf. Take on a feat or skill or something that makes up for the lack of those extra drow abilities if necessary.
jasper 05-03-06, 09:57 AM	he is the dm. He sets the tone and limits of his game world. Just because you spend the money does not give you the right to dictate to him his game world. Besides he is new and he needs his training wheels as dm so let him limit it the PHB.
degoran 05-03-06, 10:05 AM	*sigh* It seems to me that the people who are so against the supplemental books are either elitist or just plain lazy. Now, while I agree with your DM, I have to disagree with about 90% of the folks that replied to you. My current group consists of a human ninja, a half-elf ranger, a Yuan-ti Pureblood monk, a dwarf fighter, an elf warlock, and a human wizard. They are also accompanied by a plain old Ogre NPC from the MM with two levels in barbarian, which puts him on the level of the APL. The majority of this group is "core". In fact, the only things that aren't "core" are the ninja and the warlock, although one would like to argue with me for weeks on end that tossing both the Yuan-ti and Ogre in there "unbalances" the entire party. Puh-lease, spare me. Shockingly (not really, but it must be shocking for you kids), EVERY player uses their character to the fullest and this in no shape or form disrupts the coveted "balance". At this point, all the ninja can do is turn invisible for 1 round, climb walls at her speed IF she starts and ends the move on a horizontal surface, and can Sudden Strike her opponent if he is flat-footed. Otherwise, she's pretty much the rogue. As for the monk, sure, he's a badass and was even the party leader for a short time while the first one was dead. But aside from his spell resistance, he's no more overpowered than any other character in the group. The ranger and ninja sneak and scout, the monk, barbarian, and fighter take care of melee, while the warlock and wizard enhance their tactics. No one is more powerful than the other. Each has his or her own unique abilities to bring to the table, and by doing so, complimenting the abilities of the others. My group is experienced and mature enough to handle this. It is ludacris to say that having a ninja, hexblade, favored soul, warmage, etc. "unbalances" a party. My advice is to either let go of your barriers and open your mind enough to actually read, compare, and playtest these supplemental classes, or stop being lazy by assuming such classes are as bad as you folks say they are without getting all of the facts first. Back to the subject at hand, you DM is very wise to start a newbie group by the core rules alone. While I do not see a half-drow being that much of a problem, there is nothing wrong with getting the new players or new DM acquainted with the game before exploring what the other books have to offer. Just sit back, relax, and trust that your DM will put together a fun game for all of you.
Bohica 05-03-06, 10:21 AM	Just go with the flow. Maybe he will let you introduce new feats and prestige classes slowly, after the newer players have a firmer grasp of the game.
Whim 05-03-06, 10:22 AM	*sigh* It seems to me that the people who are so against the supplemental books are either elitist or just plain lazy. Now, while I agree with your DM, I have to disagree with about 90% of the folks that replied to you. My current group consists of a human ninja, a half-elf ranger, a Yuan-ti Pureblood monk, a dwarf fighter, an elf warlock, and a human wizard. They are also accompanied by a plain old Ogre NPC from the MM with two levels in barbarian, which puts him on the level of the APL. The majority of this group is "core". In fact, the only things that aren't "core" are the ninja and the warlock, although one would like to argue with me for weeks on end that tossing both the Yuan-ti and Ogre in there "unbalances" the entire party. Puh-lease, spare me. Shockingly (not really, but it must be shocking for you kids), EVERY player uses their character to the fullest and this in no shape or form disrupts the coveted "balance". At this point, all the ninja can do is turn invisible for 1 round, climb walls at her speed IF she starts and ends the move on a horizontal surface, and can Sudden Strike her opponent if he is flat-footed. Otherwise, she's pretty much the rogue. As for the monk, sure, he's a badass and was even the party leader for a short time while the first one was dead. But aside from his spell resistance, he's no more overpowered than any other character in the group. The ranger and ninja sneak and scout, the monk, barbarian, and fighter take care of melee, while the warlock and wizard enhance their tactics. No one is more powerful than the other. Each has his or her own unique abilities to bring to the table, and by doing so, complimenting the abilities of the others. My group is experienced and mature enough to handle this. It is ludacris to say that having a ninja, hexblade, favored soul, warmage, etc. "unbalances" a party. My advice is to either let go of your barriers and open your mind enough to actually read, compare, and playtest these supplemental classes, or stop being lazy by assuming such classes are as bad as you folks say they are without getting all of the facts first. Back to the subject at hand, you DM is very wise to start a newbie group by the core rules alone. While I do not see a half-drow being that much of a problem, there is nothing wrong with getting the new players or new DM acquainted with the game before exploring what the other books have to offer. Just sit back, relax, and trust that your DM will put together a fun game for all of you. It doesn't necessarily cause imbalance among EXPERIENCED players, but with newbies, they tend to see a few new options open up and then start begging to play really weird stuff that really DOES imbalance a group. And when I say imbalance, I mean that one or two people end up doing ALL the work because no one else has to. You get one or two players who have an edge on everyone else that ends up turning the adventure into an escort mission because the other players chose to stick with very basic things while a couple of players fought too hard for abilities they probably shouldn't have. I know this because I've experienced it. Again, the swashbuckler and ninja and what-not are fine, but new players tend to assume that they can start picking races out of the monster manual or something like that and, of course, a fairly unexperienced DM will eventually allow it after they beg him for it enough, especially if he's already allowed this other player to play something as innocent as a half-drow. The imbalance isn't necessarily caused by game mechanics--it's caused by the mentality of new(ish) gamers.
celtredleg 05-03-06, 10:27 AM	*sigh* It seems to me that the people who are so against the supplemental books are either elitist or just plain lazy. Now, while I agree with your DM, I have to disagree with about 90% of the folks that replied to you. My current group consists of a human ninja, a half-elf ranger, a Yuan-ti Pureblood monk, a dwarf fighter, an elf warlock, and a human wizard. They are also accompanied by a plain old Ogre NPC from the MM with two levels in barbarian, which puts him on the level of the APL. The majority of this group is "core". In fact, the only things that aren't "core" are the ninja and the warlock, although one would like to argue with me for weeks on end that tossing both the Yuan-ti and Ogre in there "unbalances" the entire party. Puh-lease, spare me. Shockingly (not really, but it must be shocking for you kids), EVERY player uses their character to the fullest and this in no shape or form disrupts the coveted "balance". At this point, all the ninja can do is turn invisible for 1 round, climb walls at her speed IF she starts and ends the move on a horizontal surface, and can Sudden Strike her opponent if he is flat-footed. Otherwise, she's pretty much the rogue. As for the monk, sure, he's a badass and was even the party leader for a short time while the first one was dead. But aside from his spell resistance, he's no more overpowered than any other character in the group. The ranger and ninja sneak and scout, the monk, barbarian, and fighter take care of melee, while the warlock and wizard enhance their tactics. No one is more powerful than the other. Each has his or her own unique abilities to bring to the table, and by doing so, complimenting the abilities of the others. My group is experienced and mature enough to handle this. It is ludacris to say that having a ninja, hexblade, favored soul, warmage, etc. "unbalances" a party. My advice is to either let go of your barriers and open your mind enough to actually read, compare, and playtest these supplemental classes, or stop being lazy by assuming such classes are as bad as you folks say they are without getting all of the facts first. Back to the subject at hand, you DM is very wise to start a newbie group by the core rules alone. While I do not see a half-drow being that much of a problem, there is nothing wrong with getting the new players or new DM acquainted with the game before exploring what the other books have to offer. Just sit back, relax, and trust that your DM will put together a fun game for all of you. "sigh" It seems to me that people who think DMs are lazy because they dont include every book out there must be jobless live in parents basement no life nerds who have a strong dislike for people with jobs and thier own lives. Interseting when you make blanket accusation like that. Balance has little to do with limiting a new group to core. It is more about getting people to learn how to play at all before getting to many options. It is sometimes hard enough to get people settle one one concept as it is. I have also found that many noobs with to many choices want to change charecter every week or two. This is disruptive to game flow, especialy if you try to include the noob in the storyline. Now you rewrite every week, or have long arguments about why you wont let them change.
LordLeecho 05-03-06, 10:35 AM	The key here is just enjoying the game that is being played. Sometimes even if the group doesnt have newbies, its just fun to get back to basics and tool around. You dont need every book and the super badace build to have fun, enjoy a fighter with a billion feats, he grapples he sunders he trips, he does it all. Play a straight up Wizard who has more big nasty spells in his spell book then he knows what to do with. Just relax, there will be other missions and other character to play later. As someone suggested, make him up, tweak him until you have the chance to play him, that way he will run "perfectly" as you wanted him.
celtredleg 05-03-06, 10:39 AM	It doesn't necessarily cause imbalance among EXPERIENCED players, but with newbies, they tend to see a few new options open up and then start begging to play really weird stuff that really DOES imbalance a group. And when I say imbalance, I mean that one or two people end up doing ALL the work because no one else has to. You get one or two players who have an edge on everyone else that ends up turning the adventure into an escort mission because the other players chose to stick with very basic things while a couple of players fought too hard for abilities they probably shouldn't have. I know this because I've experienced it. Again, the swashbuckler and ninja and what-not are fine, but new players tend to assume that they can start picking races out of the monster manual or something like that and, of course, a fairly unexperienced DM will eventually allow it after they beg him for it enough, especially if he's already allowed this other player to play something as innocent as a half-drow. The imbalance isn't necessarily caused by game mechanics--it's caused by the mentality of new(ish) gamers. And imbalance works two ways. I have had way more noobs make very poor charecters because they dont read the fine print in a given ability, or dont understand everything involved. I used giants as an example of this above, even though I did not point that out. Giants as presented in savage species are a bit weak. They dont have the HP to slug it out like they should. But a noob tends to just see the huge STR bonus and go with that. My favorite example involves another game system. It had a skill called deathtrance. A new player read that, and decided it meant you went into a trance and could understand how somebody died. In fact, it was a way for a monkish charecter to simply will themselves to death, a painless suicide. Of course the player eventualy tried to use the ability, and I enforced the actual text on how it worked. The look on his face was priceless. And he has ever since read all skill and feat discriptions carefully.
Mandarbgrim 05-03-06, 10:48 AM	I again voice the "Go with the Flow" advice. Sorry your money currently seems wasted. It is better to keep options limited to not overwelm new players. I'm not sure if I agree that supplements aren't unbalancing. They aren't always, but they can be.. Accessories offer options, options can be combined in such ways to generate synergy than just core material. This seems perfectly fine if everyone is at the same level of familiarity with the options, but it doesn't appear to be so in this case, and hasn't ever been so in any example that I have seen while playing. My only point being that it seems like a valid complaint that accessories "can and do" contribute to unbalance in games. Side-note: I've never seen anyone actually play up a Cleric to the potentual I see espoused on these forums. In general nobody wants to play clerics and be the healbot. This is the usual substandard role of the cleric in games that I've been in.
celtredleg 05-03-06, 10:53 AM	It is amazing who me and my original group of DnDers could have had so much fun for so many years. After all, all we had was core. No skills, no feats, no splatbooks. No monsterous races. Not even socs, or bards. How could we possibly had fun, or interesting PCs. And yet we did. For many years in fact. Now when ADD came out we got a few more options, and we certainly used them. But when 2nd ed came out, we sort of skipped on passed it. I did not like how they nerfed magic missle. And fireball, and a lot of my other favorite spells. It must be amazing that we played at all.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-03-06, 11:01 AM	Welcome to the wonderful world of Core Only. The temperature today is Shut The Hell Up with a slight chance of originality. Please return your munchkinny powermongering to its upright and locked position and thank you for not playing a frenzied berserker. You can live without splatbooks. Play a human fighter.
KoalaKnight 05-03-06, 11:04 AM	Coming from a DM's perspective and a Player's perspective here... the point is definately, and should always be, conceeded to your DM. Here's my point. Now.. I have access to every 3.5 book from WOTC. First off.. between the race books, the weather books, and the two campaign settings (Eberron and FR)... that's ALOT of races to keep track of and more importantly... plan for. Secondly, the PRCs and Classes in such books CAN be (thought not all are) unbalanced. ...that.. and... if you want to be.. say... Hunter of the Hidden Isle? ...I think that's the elven group PRC.. he needs to think of some way to put the hunters as a whole in his campaign. ...now.. multiply that process by however many 'elite groups' there are in the 3.5 books. That's ALOT of extra planning. Now.. my DM (in the game I'm not running or not writing for) says the same thing. Only the PHB. We have a bunch of other books.. the completes... etc. And I respect that request. Simply because, the DM probably has no idea what's in the other books and is probably worried that things will get out of hand and all his hard work for making a campaign will be crushed by Uber-PCs. ..which IS possible. Just ask the gods of Character Optimizaiton. My suggestion is two fold. 1. Always respect your DM's choice. 2. IF there's a specific thing you want to go for... or a specific feat you would like to use for your character.. go over it with your DM. He may be against "open season" D&D.. but.. he may just be willing to see you have a great concept and green light one or two submissions from a different book.
starfire311 05-03-06, 11:07 AM	1st I agree with your DM, he is making a very smart decision in bringing the new guys along slowly. 2nd I disagree with most people that say the splatbooks are unbalancing, there are a few unbalancing things in them(divine metamagic, 3.0 Power critical, and natural spell to a lesser degree come to mind), but over all they work nicly.
starfire311 05-03-06, 11:09 AM	Hunter of the Hidden Isle? ...I think that's the elven group PRC.. is that like seeker of the misty isle... i know that one, never seen hunter, but I dont have FRCS or ECS books, I actually really like the seeker, wonder if the Hunter is cool too.
KoalaKnight 05-03-06, 11:18 AM	That's it! Yes. Seeker of the Misty Isle. I didn't have my book infront of me. Thanks mate.
Bob Loblaw 05-03-06, 11:19 AM	First, I like the fact that everyone has been supportive of the DM. He sounds like he knows what he is doing. I'm really surprised that not a single person has come to give advice on how to change your DM's mind. There's usually at least one. Second, I want to say that by themselves, there is nothing unbalanced in any of the spaltbooks. Everything is campaign dependant. It all depends on the type of game I am running. Every race, class, spell, etc has a place in the game. However, since each game and group is different, the variety of options needs to be weighed against the game that is being played by that group. What is unbalancing for one group may be perfectly fine for another. Balance can even change as the game progresses. Personally, I don't think that any single person can make an honest point of how any of the options are unbalancing for all games.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-03-06, 11:28 AM	Voted Half Elf with a jar of black paint.
degoran 05-03-06, 11:29 AM	"sigh" It seems to me that people who think DMs are lazy because they dont include every book out there must be jobless live in parents basement no life nerds who have a strong dislike for people with jobs and thier own lives. Interseting when you make blanket accusation like that. Balance has little to do with limiting a new group to core. It is more about getting people to learn how to play at all before getting to many options. It is sometimes hard enough to get people settle one one concept as it is. I have also found that many noobs with to many choices want to change charecter every week or two. This is disruptive to game flow, especialy if you try to include the noob in the storyline. Now you rewrite every week, or have long arguments about why you wont let them change. You obviously did not read the last paragraph I wrote, which only proves my first point about being lazy and elitist, for you just reiterated everything I said in that last paragraph, as well as implied that I'm the aforementioned "jobless, live-in-parents-basement-no-life-nerd". Now we can go *** for tat all day long, but I choose not to because it is pointless. The vast majority of what I have read in not only this thread, but in many others as well, is a very biased attitute towards expansion books created by WotC. While I have seen little explanation/arguments for this bias, it has indeed been little. It is mostly complaining with no substance other than the poster is comfortable with the core rules alone. Which brings me full circle back to my case. For your benefit, I will re-write my last paragraph verbatim and then leave it as such. I mean, come on, man, you actually even quoted it! Back to the subject at hand, you DM is very wise to start a newbie group by the core rules alone. While I do not see a half-drow being that much of a problem, there is nothing wrong with getting the new players or new DM acquainted with the game before exploring what the other books have to offer. Just sit back, relax, and trust that your DM will put together a fun game for all of you.
StormKnight 05-03-06, 11:38 AM	Ignoring the "core only" idea for a moment, what you see as a minor difference may be a very major difference to the game. Sure, a half-Drow may only have minor statistical differences, but it could entirely affect the nature of the campaign. If you are supposed to be encountering the drow, it could totally change their attitude toward you. If there is currently a massive war with the drow going on, it could totally change everyone else's attitude toward you. If you were playing in my current campaign for example, this would be a major issue since Drow are significantly different (societally, not statisically) from the standard presentation. I might not want to tell you (the player) this since virtually all that is known about them is myth and rumor, which can reasonably match up with what is the standard presentation. Furthermore, a half-drow would be an exceedingly bizarre and unusual occurence which would have very major repercussions if the game was going to involve the drow.
Shinryouga 05-03-06, 02:04 PM	If the game has new players, then there should be a PHB dedicated to each of the new players. Its hard to look back to the days when we first cracked open those shiny new books, looked inside, and went "WTF?" The PHB is 315 pages! In terms of the content within it, its equal to most of my psychology textbooks. The fact that we enjoy D&D is what allows us to learn the system. I know if I enjoyed psychology as much as I enjoy D&D, I'd have gotten straight A+ my whole college career, with little or no effort. Consider it though, 300+ pages, maybe half that if not a spellcaster, but odds are that most of these rules will come up at some point in a well run game. When a sunder attempt or a need for the effects of wood's hardness in relation to acid, or the carrying capacity of a permanently reduced donkey come up, the rules get used. But as loathe as most people are to study, most gamers I know seem loathe to let game slow down looking up the rule, and try to make sure they have learned the rules. In conclusion: Just go with the DM's restrictions, they'll make everyone better gamers in the long run. You could ask him if when you get to an area that coincides with one of the splatbooks (Port town = Stormwrack, Dwarven city = Races of Stone) if he might look over the approriate items and possibly include them at that point. That would keep the new rule inclusion at a manageable pace, and preserve the versimilitude of the game world. Just me two coppers.
degoran 05-03-06, 02:30 PM	If the game has new players, then there should be a PHB dedicated to each of the new players. Its hard to look back to the days when we first cracked open those shiny new books, looked inside, and went "WTF?" The PHB is 315 pages! In terms of the content within it, its equal to most of my psychology textbooks. The fact that we enjoy D&D is what allows us to learn the system. I know if I enjoyed psychology as much as I enjoy D&D, I'd have gotten straight A+ my whole college career, with little or no effort. Consider it though, 300+ pages, maybe half that if not a spellcaster, but odds are that most of these rules will come up at some point in a well run game. When a sunder attempt or a need for the effects of wood's hardness in relation to acid, or the carrying capacity of a permanently reduced donkey come up, the rules get used. But as loathe as most people are to study, most gamers I know seem loathe to let game slow down looking up the rule, and try to make sure they have learned the rules. In conclusion: Just go with the DM's restrictions, they'll make everyone better gamers in the long run. You could ask him if when you get to an area that coincides with one of the splatbooks (Port town = Stormwrack, Dwarven city = Races of Stone) if he might look over the approriate items and possibly include them at that point. That would keep the new rule inclusion at a manageable pace, and preserve the versimilitude of the game world. Just me two coppers. I applaud you for your sage advice! Now if only I could see more of this, I would feel much better about being a member of this community.
kelvinaw273 05-03-06, 02:34 PM	Your DM is perfectly entitled to restrict you to Core if he feels it is best for his campaign, and that he can handle the rules in Core just fine, thank you. He is not required to explain why, even though there maybe setting reasons for doing so - your character may not know those reasons. Incorporating or not incorporating ruels from other books is not about balance, it is about DM knowledge of said rules and having them to hand to consider all of the ramifications. All too often I have seen a player exploit the DM's lack of knowledge of the restrictions of their feats or abilities to make them overpowered, and THAT is the main problem. Now as other posters have suggested, play a half-elf with dark skin. Maybe he's half-drow, maybe not, but say your Dm has a setting in which Drow are slain on sight - half-drow is NOT a good idea, and your DM is doing you a favour by not letting you take one.
hmmmm 05-03-06, 03:05 PM	Sorry im with the DM on this one. I have tryed it and it can be daunting for any new player and unfair as you get some type of cool funny sounding armor or weapon from another book and they are stuck with the core things.
celtredleg 05-03-06, 04:03 PM	You obviously did not read the last paragraph I wrote, which only proves my first point about being lazy and elitist, for you just reiterated everything I said in that last paragraph, as well as implied that I'm the aforementioned "jobless, live-in-parents-basement-no-life-nerd". Now we can go *** for tat all day long, but I choose not to because it is pointless. The vast majority of what I have read in not only this thread, but in many others as well, is a very biased attitute towards expansion books created by WotC. While I have seen little explanation/arguments for this bias, it has indeed been little. It is mostly complaining with no substance other than the poster is comfortable with the core rules alone. Which brings me full circle back to my case. For your benefit, I will re-write my last paragraph verbatim and then leave it as such. I mean, come on, man, you actually even quoted it! Back to the subject at hand, you DM is very wise to start a newbie group by the core rules alone. While I do not see a half-drow being that much of a problem, there is nothing wrong with getting the new players or new DM acquainted with the game before exploring what the other books have to offer. Just sit back, relax, and trust that your DM will put together a fun game for all of you. So don't call me a jobless hater if you can't take initiative enough to read everything said before sticking your foot in your mouth. Thank you. Actualy I read the last paragraph, and agreed with it for the most part. I qouted it because I hate out of context qoutes so I always use the full passage. I am curios how you have determined that 90% of the people on this thread are lazy and elitist. In fact I have no idea what you mean by the term elitest, as you have not defined it in relation to this threaIf it is some slam at core only, then you are one crappy marksman. I use every book other than the ones on Psionics. I dont like psi, but that is 3-4 other threads. I use there rest of the complete series in all my games, as well as savage species. Currently the party features a vrock, a blue slaad, a vampire, 2 dragons, a cleric on the way to one of the necro prcs in libris mortim. Oh and a fire giant, which is unbalanced in that it isa rather weak for the role of tank that seems where it belongs best. But I am tweeking that to make it a useable charecter. So did you take a poll?? I dont remember filling it out myself. Or did you send spys to each of use and read thier reports?? Or did you just throw togather a nasty little remark to attack all the people that dont agree with you?? Much as I did, only I have no idea if you are employed or not and dont care. I just wanted to demonstrate that it is uncool to be lumped into a group that you just dont belong to. But you probably missed that point right??
terrainmonkey 05-03-06, 04:49 PM	now boys, let's play nice. :) yes, your DM has every right to say core only. He's the master of the game, and i would expect all players to respect his authority when it comes to his decisions on what he wants in the game. Whether you have 42 complete/races/guidebooks, etc., doesn't matter to him, nor should it. As far as the debate on whether splat books let imbalance come into the game, the real arbiter of game balance rests with the DM. I think we can all agree on that. Sure, there are some things in the core books that can seem unbalancing or just plain wrong, (frenzied berserker, hulking hurler come to mind right away), it is up to the dm to decide if that certain class or race would unbalance HIS game to a degree. When you have new players who have never done anything outside of character creation, i see no reason why you can't just respect the needs of your DM and the other members of the group and go with what your DM has laid down for his campaign. as i always say to my players, "We play XYZ, this is allowed, that isn't, and during the game if you want to change classes or races in that book, i have to approve. if i don't approve, either deal with it or find the door." More often than not, the player agrees with me, finds a new class, and the discussion is over. I've never had a player have a problem with this. so do what everyone is saying. play a half elf, color his skin dark, call him a half drow, but use the core race and call it done. your DM will thank you for not being a bother, and maybe the game will be fun for you and the rest of the group.
celtredleg 05-03-06, 04:58 PM	But uncle monkey he started it...... :D I wonder if the OP is still here, or if he got scared off.
LCD2YOU 05-03-06, 05:09 PM	Yeah, that's it. My games are boring, unoriginal and I'm lazy. See, I don't let just any splat book come in either. I have my players use the PHB to start off. As they get better and know the rules more, they are encouraged to look around at the other books. Of course, there are some feats, skills and PrCs I will not let into my game. I don't fear the skill, etc., but like a road kill, dead skunk, there are somethings you just don't want to get your hands dirty with at all. Yeah, I'm an elitist snob.
theDuBixCube 05-03-06, 05:21 PM	Surely you can see the logic and benefit in what your DM is doing? Yeah, it kind of sucks a little bit, but it really is best not confuse the new players. Not everyone learns at the same pace, so while it may come easy to you, it won't necessarily come as easy to some of the other players. My advice would be to just play along for one campaign. Not one session, one full campaign. That ought to give everyone ample time to pick up on basics of roleplaying, combat, movement, etc. Then, when you start your next campaign, the DM can bust it wide open because everyone in the party will have the requisite knowledge to efficiently play the race/class of their choice. What you're looking at really is an ideal situation, but I know it kind of seems more like a kid asking for candy and being told "No." Now whether you get that or not depends on whether you're an adult or a kid, I suppose... ;)
Jarrad 05-04-06, 06:05 AM	I have done exactly the thing your DM is asking you to do: started a game using core-only material. I think it's an excellent idea, as it will encourage people to really learn the core material before branching out, and encourage new roleplayers to make the most of what they have access to. In my games, the default is "core only". That doesn't mean that I won't allow other material, it means that if you want something else you'll have to ask me. If you ask me without lending me the relevant tome (assuming I don't already have it) for at least a week in advance so I can consider all the implications, the answer is "no". The trouble from my point of view is that I can't possibly keep up with the extra material, nor do I really have time to consider the full implications of what can be done with a lot of the material that I *do* have. I simply don't have time! As it is, I don't watch television at all because it's basically a choice between TV or having time to fit writing for my weekly session in around all my other activities. Do I think splatbooks are "unbalanced"? I think that's a nonsensical question. You can't say whether a *particular* piece of material is balanced or not outside the context of a given game. Much of the splatbook material would, in my game, be hideously unbalanced simply because I don't have time to deal with it properly. I've been running one campaign for over three years. When I started, I pretty much only had access to core material and all the major NPC's I spent so very very long creating are pretty much based solely on the PHB, DMG and MM. My game world is very big, very detailed and has a host of characters that are getting on with their lives and doing things completely independently of the PC's. The players get regular news updates about things that are going on around them in case they decide they'd like to get involved, but it's neither particularly encouraged nor required that they do so. Thing is, some of the material in the splatbooks *might* make some of my NPC's very vulnerable to something I hadn't considered. This is a problem for me, because the campaign is not a typical one and there are not an infinite number of high-level NPC's in the game. There really isn't "always someone more powerful than you"; the few high-level characters that exist in the main areas of action in the campaign world are the way they are for a reason and I don't want that balance tipped because the PC's have access to material that the NPC's didn't when I designed them. Sure, I could access that material myself and redesign the NPC's but a) I don't have anything like the time required and b) frankly don't want to. In short, I think that provided *everyone* - particularly the DM - has access to ALL of the material being used, and provided that the campaign has been designed to take all of this material into account then almost anything can be "balanced", regardless of how skewed it may seem on the page. In the sort of campaign with one-off villains and locations that are either short-lived or constantly changing in a way that suggests that the continuity checkers have Alzheimer's, you can even introduce lots of powerful new material on the fly without spoiling anyone's fun. In many campaigns though - and I think this is where people are getting upset over certain published materials - it would actually be necessary almost to roll up and start everything again in order to accomodate some or all of the splatbooks. The material *would* be unbalanced if it was introduced into an existing game in a lot of cases because it just isn't possible to adjust the campaign to take the new abilities or whatever into account: whether that's due to time constraints, because the necessary changes would introduce massive "continuity errors" or simply because not all of the players are up to the job. The other proviso is that everyone - again, particularly the DM - should have the same amount of time and skill for optimisation, which is where it all falls apart. For a finite amount of published material this is possible, although the actual *amount* of material that can be accomodated in this way will vary from group to group. "Unbalance" occurs when certain members of the group - and once more, particularly the DM - are either far more or far less skilled at (or have far more or less time for) absorbing all possible implications of all of the rules, PrC's, feats, skills and spells in play and making the same degree of use of them. Half the problem with new splatbooks is that the people who are designing them quite often eat, sleep and breathe DnD. They have all of the material, know all of the rules (although sometimes it doesn't seem like it) and can say things like "This ability I've just written can be countered by a Wizard of Level Blah with the Spell of Mighty Mightiness from the Complete Wossname, or even a Barbarian with the Psychotic Murderer prestige class with an Axe of Hurtful Remarks, so where's the problem?" If you've never heard of the Spell of Mighty Mightiness or the Axe of Hurtful Remarks, and/or if you simply don't have the time or the spare processing power to absorb ALL of the implications of ALL of the material in play in your game then the ability in question could be a show-stopper. This is why I largely stick to core material. Everyone around the table knows it, we've all made creative use of it right to the point of pain within the core rules and so we can forget about the optimisation of mechanics, know the limitations of PC's and NPC's alike and just get on with the role-playing. It's skill and creativity that makes the difference because we're all on a level playing field with the mechanics. I am now using a fair bit of non-core material from various sources, but it has been introduced slowly and carefully with plenty of time to absorb the impact on the game. As an aside, it has made the new material that HAS made the cut that much more exciting and fun because it's a rare and special occasion for new feats and classes to turn up. That's not to suggest that it is, or should be, the same way for anyone else but it does fit well with the style of my group. Perhaps the OP's DM will, over time, do the same "slow introduction of new material" thing - as other posters on the thread have suggested - and perhaps he won't, but I am fully and totally in agreement that no more material should be introduced to the game than can be handled by everyone around the table... And one final time: Particularly The DM! :D
TarlSS 05-04-06, 07:08 AM	Nothing wrong with splatbooks, nothing wrong with disallowing them. If you don't want to play without them, don't play. I think everyone has the right to play with splatbooks, I mean frankly you spend lots of money on these books, you want to use them alot. It's a game. Is it going to kill you? No. However, maybe he just wants to play a core game, old school style. Maybe he hasn't read through all the splatbooks so he's not sure on how to adjucate them. He's probably afraid of abuse, and rightfully so- it's rather easy to pull a fast one if you're using material no one else is familiar with. It puts you in a position of knowledgable authority that gives you an unquantified edge over the DM when arguements arise. If he doesn't feel comfortable with this, that's perfectly valid. Whether it's balanced or not is immaterial. Core D&D arguably was and never will be balanced, and there's no particular reason to adhere to any one style of gaming.
Valthonis 05-04-06, 08:15 AM	I'm gonna have to agree with most of the posters. Your DM is right. Sticking to the core books is easier when dealing with new players. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the Complete series and have nothing against any other books. When my girlfriend just started our entire party stuck to core books for our first short campaign. It really helped her learn it faster. Since then we've branched off to other books. My GF is herself using the Order of the Bow Initiate from the complete warrior, she's still getting use to a few things, but limiting the info she has to learn has made her a decent player in half the time. Despite all that though, I understand where your coming from. It's only been in the past 6 months or so that my group has started using the other books at all, despite the fact that i've been wanting to use them much longer. My suggestion, start with a core character, plan out 2 different possible builds, 1 using what you'd want to take if you could branch off into other books and 1 using a similar build to the first but keeping it restricted to the core books. Once your character gets to the point where you'd be able to take any class/prestigious class from non-core books talk to your DM and see if he's changed his mind by then. If he does let you, you've got the character you want, if not you've already got a viable build in the making. And as far as the half-drow thing. Is darkvision really that important to you? If it is talk to your DM about a Half-elf with darkvision if not just be a black skinned half-elf.
Bruunwald 05-04-06, 12:47 PM	The DM has to have fun and be comfortable with the game, too. If he feels that a fair, reasonable and equitable game can only be accomplished by sticking to the PHB, then that is simply how it must be. Only he knows what he is comfortable running with newbs in the game. If the DM has stated that he is not up to the task of working out all the extra books with newbs, then you ought to take his word for it. Forcing a DM to take on more responsibility and more detail than he is prepared for is a recipe for disaster. Stop being selfish, listen to your DM and have patience. He didn't say "never." He just said "not yet."
SwiftFox 05-04-06, 01:05 PM	My DM has just ruled that all players in our campaign must be a race and class from the PHB, as well as use equipment and such ONLY from the PHB. He's saying this because we're all fairly new and he wants it to be fair, because some people dont have as good of an understanding of it as others. Well, here's who'll be playing. Player 1(Me)- PHB, XPH, CW, CArcane, CAdventurer, Savage Species, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny Player 2- PHB, OA, Races of Stone Player 3- PHB, Races of Stone Player 4-PHB Player 5-(we made his character for him) Player 6-(SRD) So, this being said, everyone except player 4 and 5 have access to things outside of the PHB, and honestly, it's not that complicated, things outside of the PHB might take five or so minutes to explain or read over and they know what it is/does. I've tried everything with my DM, and its not working, please help.While you were considerate enough to list for the sake of your argument which books were available to the players of the group, you neglected to mention whether any or all of these books are at the disposal of the DM. Ultimately, it is unreasonable to expect a DM to accomidate any material from sourcebooks with which he is not sufficiently familliar. I also cant help but wonder whether you considered how appropriate a half-drow character was for the campaign setting the DM is using, or whether you simply decided your square peg ought to fit in what youve been told is a round hole. Is this DM really a problem for you, or is it you who are a problem for your DM? because you dont give compelling reasons as to why you ought to be given freedom in character creation supplimental to that offered by the PHB, so much as come off sounding like a clueless malcontent, no offence.
Zareneth 05-04-06, 04:18 PM	Not meaning to offend, but i didn't ask whether or not my DM was right, i needed a way to persuade him.
geekling 05-04-06, 04:26 PM	Well, that's life, you don't always get what you ask for.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-04-06, 05:18 PM	Not meaning to offend, but i didn't ask whether or not my DM was right, i needed a way to persuade him. Inform him that he's nothing more than a pathetic screen monkey and that his job is to allow you to do anything you want. If he still resists, call him more names and imply that you sullied his mother's honor.
DracoPhoenix 05-04-06, 05:22 PM	Not meaning to offend, but i didn't ask whether or not my DM was right, i needed a way to persuade him. Oh! In that case just tell him he's stupid and that you're going to use whatever books you want - you shouldn't be penalised just because a bunch of players, who have never played before, haven't got and memorised all the books & rules before playing a single game. /sarcasm. Sorry if this seems a rant, but your attitude isn't really going to encourage new players to stick at it. You didn't get the advice you wanted because the board census was aiming at retaining new players. You could always sit this one out, and come back once the boot camp's over. The first few games are going to be slow enough with the basics, nevermind complex characters with even fancier abilities (and from their point of view, spells and advanced fighting moves will be complicated). Do you really want to stop after declaring every action to explain what's going on? You'll get just as frustrated as them as the game will slow to a crawl.
Slider33 05-04-06, 05:24 PM	My DM has just ruled that all players in our campaign must be a race and class from the PHB, as well as use equipment and such ONLY from the PHB. He's saying this because we're all fairly new and he wants it to be fair, because some people dont have as good of an understanding of it as others. Well, here's who'll be playing. Player 1(Me)- PHB, XPH, CW, CArcane, CAdventurer, Savage Species, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny Player 2- PHB, OA, Races of Stone Player 3- PHB, Races of Stone Player 4-PHB Player 5-(we made his character for him) Player 6-(SRD) So, this being said, everyone except player 4 and 5 have access to things outside of the PHB, and honestly, it's not that complicated, things outside of the PHB might take five or so minutes to explain or read over and they know what it is/does. I've tried everything with my DM, and its not working, please help. Well, I have to say I agree with your DM. Especially if he's relatively new to the game as well. For new players and DM's, I think the least amount of material should be used until everyone is comfortable with it. Your DM may not be comfortable with extra sources. It's tough enough to learn to do things the right way with only core books much less added classes/races/feats/spells from other books. I've been DM'ing for a couple of years now, and there are still things that come up we haven't learned and we've only used core material. If he's like me, he'll want to read through things very carefully and probably cover-to-cover to understand it all. Going over material in a hasty manner leads to balance problems and rule misinterpretation.
Reversefigure4 05-04-06, 07:50 PM	Tell him if he doesn't allow it, you'll go DM your own game, where you'll use every book you own. Then do it if he calls your bluff.
Bruunwald 05-04-06, 08:00 PM	Not meaning to offend, but i didn't ask whether or not my DM was right, i needed a way to persuade him. And we're not giving it to you because we think you're wrong. Lemme ask you: do you walk up to a cop and ask him which is the best way to trick your parents into letting you smoking a joint?
coomber 05-04-06, 09:48 PM	all you really need to have a good time are the PHB, DMG, and MM. Sorry pal, but I am not gonna let that go by. You forgot pizza.
Insanit 05-04-06, 10:02 PM	i do the same thing as your dm there is this one guy that wants to be all these differnt things and i just stonewall him mostly beacuse i hate lvl adjustment with a passion
bob_the_great 05-04-06, 11:57 PM	Not meaning to offend, but i didn't ask whether or not my DM was right, i needed a way to persuade him. your best bet is to give in, while asking for a little in return. accept that you can't use non-phb feats, items, races... but ask your dm to approve an outside class / PrC. don't choose a class that will outshine the rest of the group or hog the spotlight, maybe take one that you've wanted to play but shied away from because it was a little underpowered. if he doesn't have the book the class is from let him borrow yours; there is no good reason he can't just sit down and look through the class. if need be go through the class with him and answer any questions he has about abilities. if he refuses to even allow in an approved PrC I wouldn't play the game. It means he's either too lazy or too controlling to fulfill a simple request that will make a player happy. and if this isn't good enough for you and you need outside material, either find a new game or a new perspective. maybe ideally a dm understands all non-core material and allows it in his game (within his control), but i'd rather have a dm who bans non-core than one who allows it to take over his game.
bob_the_great 05-05-06, 12:03 AM	Not meaning to offend, but i didn't ask whether or not my DM was right, i needed a way to persuade him. really your best bet is to give in, while asking for a little in return. accept that you can't use non-phb feats, items, races... but ask your dm to approve an outside class / PrC. don't choose a class that will outshine the rest of the group or hog the spotlight, maybe take one that you've wanted to play but shied away from because it was a little underpowered. if he doesn't have the book the class is from let him borrow yours; there is no good reason he can't just sit down and look through the class. if need be go through the class with him and answer any questions he has about abilities. if he refuses to even allow in an approved PrC I wouldn't play the game. It means he's either too lazy or too controlling to fulfill a simple request that will make a player happy. there's a big difference between not wanting to deal with unknown non-core stuff and refusing to approve one exception. and if this isn't good enough for you and you need outside material, either find a new game or a new perspective. maybe ideally a dm understands non-core material and allows it in his game, but i'd rather have a dm who bans non-core than one who allows it to take over his game.
goldjas 05-05-06, 02:26 AM	I'd have to agree with everyone else here and at first use only the core stuff, as it'll be simpler. that being said, some of these posts about Splat books being completely unbalanced as compared to core just....irritates me. Core has Mordenkaidens Disjunction. The *SINGLE* most unbalance spell in 3.5 history, every damn splat book included, bar none. and its completely core.
kelvinaw273 05-05-06, 04:46 AM	... then give in. Seriously, he needs to know that he can trust you, so don't argue with him. Just keep asking whenever you need to make a character, eventually he will say yes.
starfire311 05-05-06, 10:00 AM	really your best bet is to give in, while asking for a little in return. accept that you can't use non-phb feats, items, races... but ask your dm to approve an outside class / PrC. don't choose a class that will outshine the rest of the group or hog the spotlight, maybe take one that you've wanted to play but shied away from because it was a little underpowered. if he doesn't have the book the class is from let him borrow yours; there is no good reason he can't just sit down and look through the class. if need be go through the class with him and answer any questions he has about abilities. if he refuses to even allow in an approved PrC I wouldn't play the game. It means he's either too lazy or too controlling to fulfill a simple request that will make a player happy. there's a big difference between not wanting to deal with unknown non-core stuff and refusing to approve one exception. and if this isn't good enough for you and you need outside material, either find a new game or a new perspective. maybe ideally a dm understands non-core material and allows it in his game, but i'd rather have a dm who bans non-core than one who allows it to take over his game. not sure what you meant... I am pretty sure every DM will allow people to use PrCs that they have approved... Not every DM will approve a PrC that you ask them to... and there is no reason to expect them too. I generally have a list of all material that I have approved... if the DM says core only then that means you use the PHB for character creation, and you ask if you can use specific things in the MM or DMG and sometimes XPH(I still don't considor it core)
Sereno 05-05-06, 10:27 AM	Here's another thing to consider. Being a DM is a LOT of work ... sometimes for small rewards, too. The more optimized the PCs get, the more options they are allowed to pull in from numerous sources, the more WORK the DM has to do to make sure that encounters are fun and challenging and balanced. As the PCs become more optimized, more and more encounters become what I think of as "knife-edge" encounters. Where the combat lasts only a round or two because the PCs have the combinations of feats/classes/PrCs/items to take opponents out very quickly. For the players, this can be great ... for the DM, not-so-much. The problem is this; actually challenging these sorts of PCs requires using their optimization skills against them and putting them up against optimized opponents. That where the knife-edge comes from ... either the PCs annihilate the NPCs or the NPCs annihilate the PCs. After a while, that's simply not fun. The CR/ECL system was designed for Core Rules PC with 25-point-buy PCs NOT CO-Boards-optimized PCs. Maybe I am a lazy DM :rolleyes: but I just don't have the time to put into this game to counter the myriad choices that are out there AND provide a fun and challenging game for my players. That's why I've been sticking very close to just Core and the Eberron Campaign Setting. And, as far as Core being as unbalanced as anything in splat books, I don't really think it's possible to build a single one of the Record Setters on the CO Boards using Core-only (Thread Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=292273)). If there is one, I'd like to know about it.
Slider33 05-05-06, 03:25 PM	Here's another thing to consider. Being a DM is a LOT of work ... sometimes for small rewards, too. The more optimized the PCs get, the more options they are allowed to pull in from numerous sources, the more WORK the DM has to do to make sure that encounters are fun and challenging and balanced. My thoughts exactly. I don't think the splat books are necessarily unbalanced, but unless they're used carefully they can be. And that would involve a lot of study/experience. Even some core things can get out of hand. There's a whole thread on "what in the core-rules is imbalanced?". If everyone else is using splat books, and the DM is using them and designing the game *around* them, then balance shouldn't be a problem. However if not everyone is on the same page a character from outside sources with a different set of feats and abilities could be very unbalancing and unfair. To the OP, carefully consider your friends that will be joining you in the game. Would you want to be the guy with, for example a human-fighter, when the other guy gets to be a thri-kreen/weretiger, psion/ninja/frenzied berserker/etc. ? It might be balanced but it may not be fun for everyone else if you get to pull from all those different sources and they only have an SRD or a PHB with them. Especially when they see you pull off stunts or feats that they didn't realize existed. So let me tell you of my experience with this situation. Couple of buddies bought the XPH. That's all fine and dandy, but no one did their homework on how the psionic rules actually worked, and the DM ended up allowing it anyway to try it out. No one knew the rules (even the players using that source), including the DM since it wasn't his source book. I rolled the only core character in the group, the other guys did the psionics stuff. My character was grossly underpowered compared to them, (and due to the fact that hundreds of rules were broken). I still had a lot of fun because I played my character really really well with just core rules and had a ton of fun roleplaying. I wasn't mad at them, but it left a really bad taste in my mouth when things weren't done right and it could have been avoided. Bottom line is, your DM has to know the material as good or better than everyone else, and everyone should be somewhat familiar with whatever sources are going to be used to some degree.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-05-06, 05:35 PM	Tell him if he doesn't allow it, you'll go DM your own game, where you'll use every book you own. Then do it if he calls your bluff. Someone did that to me at a con once. Someguy: "No Paladins?! Screw that, I'll run my own game then." Me: "Okay, have fun." Someguy: "Yeah, I will. Better than if I was NOT playing a Paladin. Me: "Good for you." Someguy: "Can I borrow your MM?" Me: "W..."
TinManFan 05-05-06, 11:12 PM	A. He's the DM. He's makin the world, setting the plot up, givin out magic goodies and giving the XP. You're there to roll some dice and to not die (often). His world, deal w/ it. B. Take it as a challenge. Anyone can unbalance a game w/ the splatbooks. It takes talent to unbalance it with core only.
Arem_K 05-06-06, 12:28 AM	Considering you want to be a half drow, it seems like you want to include other books for the opportunity to play something other than standard races/classes. As someone who is thinking about buying a book just so he can play an effective gnome who reduces his size and then charges into battle on a housecat (stole the idea from the char opt boards by the way) I sympathsize. The best way to include new books is to get everyone excited about using them. Start lending your books to the other people at the table. Show the new guys all the cool, flavorful classes that have been designed. Get thinking about whether they want to be a generic rogue or something really cool like a swashbuckler or ninja (neither of which is inbalanced). When the whole party wants to have your extra books, the DM will probably agree to include them.
goldjas 05-06-06, 01:59 AM	B. Take it as a challenge. Anyone can unbalance a game w/ the splatbooks. It takes talent to unbalance it with core only. Druid. Cleric. Spiked Chain. MDJ. Polymorph in all its forms Yes, a challenge indead :P
Bob Loblaw 05-06-06, 10:45 AM	Zareneth, you need to be more supportive of the new players and your DM. It is incredibly selfish to ask us to help you persuade your DM to change his rule so you can play something outside the guidelines he's set forth. You didn't waste your money on the books you've bought. You just don't get to use them right now. You can probably use them later. It's time to be a friend to the rest of the people you are gaming with and support them. goldjas, just for the record, not a single one of the things you mentioned is broken with a good DM. I have had exactly zero problems with everything you mentioned. The problem only exists if the DM doesn't know how to handle the rules. Everything can be countered, using only the core rules. I have countered every problem that those things supposedly bring to the game, without any houserules. It takes an understanding of the rules to do it. A spiked chain is useless when sundered or disarmed. All spellcasters suffer from the need to actually be able to cast their spells in a timely manner and have them last long enough. Also, with spells like Disjuntion being broken, how can the cleric or druid be broken also? They are subject to the spell in the same manner as everyone else. I have never seen a single spell disrupt my game. Disjunction won't disrupt a game if the DM is smart enough to not have his NPCs rely on only a single item to be effective. Polymorph isn't going to always be useful. Sometimes it isn't going to last long enough; other times you may need something better, like Disjunction. It isn't the end-all-be-all of spells. With a DM who actually provides challenges to the players, nothing is broken. The only time something can be broken is if it is inappropriate for the game it is in. A DM who uses all the resources available that he gives the players never has to deal with broken. My players aren't happy when they get their butts handed to them because I did to them what they have been doing to the NPCs but they do understand. I don't let them get complacent with their abilities.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-06-06, 09:26 PM	MDJ is only unbalanced in the DM's hands because players aren't going to use it.
RadicalTaoist 05-06-06, 09:46 PM	MDJ is only unbalanced in the DM's hands because players aren't going to use it. Oh, it can be plenty broken in the player's hands too (as long as you don't use it for something stupid, like destroying the NPC's loot which you should be taking off his corpse). Everything that needed saying has been said. Games with supplemental material can be fun and balanced, but it's still the DM's prerogative to allow whatever he chooses. If you want to convince him you are trustable, play this game and play it well. Maybe next time he'll open up. If you really really want to play with all these supplements, DM a game yourself. There's only one supplement that I would actually considering asking a DM twice to allow.* In the meanwhile, I think there's a can of black facepaint out there with your half-elf's name on it (although you might be able to convince him of this one little thing - a half-elf with darkvision instead of low-light is no stretch). *In case you're wondering it's the Expanded Psionics Handbook, firstly because I love 3.5 psi to death, and secondly because I've found it easier for newcomers to learn and DMs to control.
TinManFan 05-06-06, 11:14 PM	Someone has thrown down the gauntlet about MDJ being un-balanced. Hah! Uh, I'm gonna cast MDJ at the gauntlet. Might be trapped ya know...