Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Levism84 10-06-04, 01:45 PM	OK, I'm in a bit of a fix. My character is in danger of loosing his soul to the party's long running transmuter wizard/arch mage (aka "taxi"). Long story short: The party found a demon temple and got trapped in a room with 30 hellcats (yeah, the invisible things that maul the flesh). While the rest of the party (i.e. my character, the fighter, the cleric, and the paladin- the rogue was missing that game) was busy fighting off the hellcats as best as we could, the wizard was secretly making a pact with the leader of a devil cult we had stumbled across. In exchange for getting the party out of the jam, the wizard promised my soul as payment... MY SOUL! So now, the chaotic neutral (turning evil) 16th level transmuter wizard/arch mage who has been stocking up on magical gear for the last year or so, has been given a scroll of "trap the soul" and a pricey gem by the devil leader with his eyes set on trapping my character's soul (a 12yo "wilder" who has a prestige class focused on dreams and watching over sleeping people- he is chaotic good). In game the party knows something is up, and that the wizard is slowly turning a bit "gloomy" by the standards set by the paladin. We all also know he has had some contact with the devel cult leader, but to what extent we are a little lost. All we know is it has something to do with payment for services rendered. (I know that just be posting this thread I am sort of metagaming, but I wish to avoid going to the hassle of making a new character when the person playing the wizard plans on taking my soul, turning evil, and than fleeing- so he can start a new character himself.) WHAT I NEED HELP WITH: - how can I avoid loosing this character (as I am playtesting some stuff for a campaign I will be running next semester, and I don't see myself being able to easily construct another character to join the party anytime soon) without metagaming? - what would be some tactics I could use to fight off this wizard? - WWAD? (What Would Ana Do?- Ana is the goddess of my character who has on several occations directly interceeded on behalf of the party and my character, as she likes them. She is the goddess of victory and guardian of the underdog.) BASIC STAT COMPARISON (hope this helps some) Wizard has over my character: - He is 16th level (my character is 11th level) - He has lots of powerful spell options - He always has teleport ready for quick escapes - He is fully stocked with magic items including two new staffs of transmutation (his character has been played for about a year, mine has been played for about 3 weeks) - He specializes in transmutation (and especially enjoys baleful polymorphing things into bunnies) - He has an owl familiar My character has over the wizard: - My character uses psionics and can therefore use his powers without memorizing them before hand (basically limited to a psionic version of magic missile and dimension door) - My character is better overall in melee (more hit points, better base attack bonus, better Armor Class) - My character can fly at a speed of 30 feet (good) at will - My character is immune to sleep spells and effects (and never needs to sleep unlike his character) - My character specializes in diplomacy (I make friends) and also has a good cleric, a good fighter/devoted defender (defending my character), a moderately good rogue, and a paladin on his side - My character has an animal companion squirrel Hopefully I can count on some back up from the other party members, but I am just afraid the wizard will get the jump on my character before help can arrive. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Help. ~Rain~
Board_Rider 10-06-04, 02:02 PM	First I would just say that this is the sort of thing that always seem to disrupt gameplay and while the DM should just "tell the story" he/she should interject on this one as it would seem to stall and end the campaign making not only you but the PLayers of the other PC's possibly upset. If that doesn't work...use your skills. Ask just where the heck he was during the battle...forcing a bluff check to your sense motive check..to see if you cant catch him. If HE fails ask what his intentions are. If that is not possible try to stay away until your help arrives....I wouldn't expect your diety getting in on this one. Of course if battle is the only option you must get that scroll!! Attack it if you must. Or go for his familiar and kill it or threaten to. I don't know for sure but I think "Trap the Soul" may take time to cast..even on a scroll. Check that. It may be metagaming but this is really disruptive IMO.
Arrowhen 10-06-04, 02:06 PM	the person playing the wizard plans on taking my soul, turning evil, and than fleeing- so he can start a new character himself Do you know, I mean absolutely know for a fact that that's what he's doing and why? Because it's one thing when a PC screws over another PC in character, but when a player screws over another player just so he can start a new character (and why can't he just say "I want to start a new character?") that's something that needs to be brought to the DM's attention immediately. If your DM is ok with it, I'd quit and find a game that didn't suck.
Falkus 10-06-04, 03:19 PM	Sunder the gem, if you can. No gem, no soul trap.
Adraedan 10-06-04, 04:30 PM	Ok, as a person who began playing D&D and played for many years under a DM who ENCOURAGED PC vs PC conflict, I think I may be able to help you with your problem. My first choice would be to kill him in his sleep, or maybe just lop off his tongue and hands and remove his eyeballs (just for fun) but you're CG, an alignment I'm not used to (CN for life) The sundering the gem/destroying the scroll idea is brilliant, though as a psionic, I doubt your ability to sunder is all too good, so I would take a look at (and possibly post) what psionic talents you have available to yourself. Any talent you got that can target items specifically is a good start, especially fire(for the scroll) or maybe something like concusion or a sound based damage spell(for the gem). Next, take a look through your items, anything magic(I would hope so at 11th level)? Anything your other party members have that you can borrow? Cursed/Random effect magic items are great for situations like this, I once held a wand of wonder to my friends head and told him I'd spend every charge on it if he didn't do what I said (he was holding the body of a dead minotaur trying to throw it at me)...if it's Random, than it's harder for him to work out his chances of survival. And lastly, if he succedes, and you die, he runs away and you both make new characters, make a character specifically designed to counter everything he does, then wait till he gets really attahed to his character, and then kill him.
der_gogo 10-06-04, 05:06 PM	If the Wizard has this sate of mind, he IS evil. He does not get evil by doing the trap the soul, he IS evil because he has no problems sacrificing his friends for his own gains. Tell your GM to shift his alignment ASAP. Then try to get the Paladin to your side - which should be quite easy to do against an evil wizard. Then try to get an antimagic zone around the wizard while the paladin is staying near him - Pally grapples and beats the Wizzy unconcious - Problem solved.... :D
Grox 10-06-04, 05:25 PM	SLEIGHT OF HAND my friend. It is the BEST skill to have maxxed out. Period.
dantedarkstar 10-06-04, 05:46 PM	Tough one. If the wizard is getting "gloomy", wasn't at the time of the fight, and you just feel something in the air, perhaps you could secretly convince other characters, that the wizard MAY be up to something, and you all should be wary. Nothing obvious. You would just watch each other's back. After all you don't know he's after you. But if you sense something is up, you should convince the rest of party for that. You don't know if this "something" will be against party, but this "something" may be evil or wrong. Maybe the old wizard is losing his grasp of morality ? Possibly there were tales of "power mad wizards" in the past, so maybe this most unfortunate thing starts to occur to your comrade ? You, as a good person, along with other decisively good characters should try to get down to the core of that (of course nothing too intrusive, he's a comrade after all) and try to help him turn back from the path to the dark side. If you have IC reasons to believe he's some "dark thoughts" and such, this may be a good idea (I think high Sense Motive check could tell you that something in this man is not exactly the same as your "good old friend" you knew, just during casual friend conversations, possibly about plans for future). If your feelings will confirm your fears, you may also prepare yourself along with other party members for eventual worst case, in which you would have to forcibly prevent him from doing his "evil conversion". Remember, you would be ultimately helping him (or at least his soul). The paladin will probably back you up, possibly others too (but I don't know the alignments, motivations etc. of the rest). Well, hope that could help a bit.
Levism84 10-07-04, 07:52 PM	Wow, thanks for the replies. Hopefully some of this info can help. 1) I sense motive at 0. 2) As far as magic items go, I have a class tool/weapon (functions as a +1 mythral heavy mace), a mythral chain shirt, a heward's handy haversack (with a tiny air elemental living inside that allows my squirrel to live in the pack for most of the time), 500 gp (which I borrowed from the devoted defender), some bits of fur, a pair of glasses that allow me to use detect psionics 10 rounds a day, and 17 acorns I found while searching the wilderness. Due to the nature of my character, my DM didn't really let me get a lot of magic items, and the area the party is right now is a bit out of touch with isolated. 3) The powers I can manifest are dodge ball (basically a psionic magic missile), costume (basically psionic disguise self), distraction (at its best requires a DC 27 will save or else the target is takes no action and becomes flat-footed for up to 5 rounds), voice (creates a zone around myself where everyone can hear my voice perfectly and instantly knows I am present), psionic dimension door (mostly used becasue my character cannot use the run action), and quintessence of prank (creates chaotic material that causes small prank-like outcomes). Those things might prevent me from beating the wizard. But any other advice would be more than welcome. ~Rain~
Megrim_Lord 10-07-04, 08:19 PM	Wow, thanks for the replies. Hopefully some of this info can help. 1) I sense motive at 0. 2) As far as magic items go, I have a class tool/weapon (functions as a +1 mythral heavy mace), a mythral chain shirt, a heward's handy haversack (with a tiny air elemental living inside that allows my squirrel to live in the pack for most of the time), 500 gp (which I borrowed from the devoted defender), some bits of fur, a pair of glasses that allow me to use detect psionics 10 rounds a day, and 17 acorns I found while searching the wilderness. Due to the nature of my character, my DM didn't really let me get a lot of magic items, and the area the party is right now is a bit out of touch with isolated. 3) The powers I can manifest are dodge ball (basically a psionic magic missile), costume (basically psionic disguise self), distraction (at its best requires a DC 27 will save or else the target is takes no action and becomes flat-footed for up to 5 rounds), voice (creates a zone around myself where everyone can hear my voice perfectly and instantly knows I am present), psionic dimension door (mostly used becasue my character cannot use the run action), and quintessence of prank (creates chaotic material that causes small prank-like outcomes). Those things might prevent me from beating the wizard. But any other advice would be more than welcome. ~Rain~ Have the air elemental enter his lungs, they'll burst with that much air in them. Distraction is your best bet, unfortunately I'm assuming the wizard has a pretty good will save. If all else fails, dimension yourself the heck out of there
Talin Lightfingers 10-07-04, 08:27 PM	Do you know, I mean absolutely know for a fact that that's what he's doing and why? Because it's one thing when a PC screws over another PC in character, but when a player screws over another player just so he can start a new character (and why can't he just say "I want to start a new character?") that's something that needs to be brought to the DM's attention immediately. If your DM is ok with it, I'd quit and find a game that didn't suck. Yes!!!!!!!:bow::bow::bow: exactly right! :thumbsup: It's very bad roleplaying to do something not just irrational but also very stupid! :rant: (I lernt this because My DM incoreges realy realistic roleplaying)
Levism84 10-08-04, 01:00 AM	If anything, my character wouldn't want to kill the wizard, he would just want to avoid being killed. And I can't really do anything until he does, so the moment he tries to start something it looks like my best bet is either a dimension door out of there, or a distraction with a follow up dimension door. Thanks guys. ~Rain~
danielinthewolvesden 10-10-04, 04:57 PM	Do you know, I mean absolutely know for a fact that that's what he's doing and why? Because it's one thing when a PC screws over another PC in character, but when a player screws over another player just so he can start a new character (and why can't he just say "I want to start a new character?") that's something that needs to be brought to the DM's attention immediately. If your DM is ok with it, I'd quit and find a game that didn't suck. Right. Talk to the DM, and to the other PLAYER. Person to person, not PC to PC. Explain that if this happens, you won't have "fun", and that what the whole game is about. I stop this sort of thing quite quickly- my Houserule is "no evils" thus if you become Evil your PC becomes an NPC.
HidroliX 10-10-04, 05:50 PM	If he is taking your soul! get a pact! say you will delliver his soul aswell!! Backstabbing my specialization!:D (sorry for the bad english:blush: )
Chronomodra 10-10-04, 11:16 PM	This is why I don't particularly like PC vs PC interactions. If you don't want to lose your character in this way, the best thing to do is tell the DM and this other PC about it. If either of them gives the excuse of 'I'm just roleplaying my character, then tell them that they're roleplaying an EVIL character (selling someone else's soul to a demon is an extremely evil act, whether or not they've managed to accomplish the task or not. That's why people get arrested for 'attempted murder' as well as murder.) If they are roleplaying an evil character, the paladin can detect evil and recognise that they're just not gloomy, they're EVIL, and they can be confronted verbally or physically. It seems to me that the DM wants this conflict to happen. Try to convince him otherwise. If you can't, and you end up losing your character, my advice would be to say, "All right, well, my character's dead. Congratulations. Bye." and then go find another group. It might make them think twice about introducing such one-sided party conflicts in the future (and avoid having characters be 5 levels apart.) One thing you should NOT do, however, is plan how your character will prepare for this event he has no true knowledge about. If your character doesn't know about it, then they shouldn't be able to prepare for it. You can recognise that something suspicious is going on, and can act on that, but you can't pre-empt a plan you have no knowledge of or else it is very much metagaming.
Conaill 10-11-04, 06:24 PM	How do you (as a player) know about this? Are all the players clued in to what's going on behind the scenes? If so, I would seriously recommend you sit down with your DM and the player of the wizard, and figure out among the three of you how to deal with this. You should be able to come up with some sort of game plane that will satisfy all the parties involved. For example, the DM may be able to reassure you that your character isn't irretrievably lost if the wizard succeeds. Or the wizard player may even be planning to doublecross the devil. Or perhaps the wizard might find out that your character is really his long-lost kid brother and can't bring himself to hold up his deal with the devil... I wouldn't consider this metagaming per se. It's just a little planning ahead OOC, to make sure you continue to have an exciting and interesting game IC. It DOES require very mature players who can distinguish between player and PC knowledge.
Shard of Suzail 10-11-04, 06:53 PM	What an unusual situation. The wizard, it appears, did stop the party all being eaten by "hellcats". Should he not have done this, by the sounds of it, they would all be dead by this point. The wizard offers the soul of another party member in exchange for safe passage. Well, that is somewhat disruptive to good party dynamics, i would say, though, as previous posters have indicated, the wizard may be planning some elaborate double cross that saves the day. What can you do about it? Nothing really. What would "Ana" do, again prolly nothing, since the god has already intervened a few times directly. Any further intervention just gets dumb. What would I do about it? Well, I`d give up on it myself, he has you banged to rights. Your best bet is to be rescued *after* the deed is done. The party should be tough enough to take on the big demon fellow and free you. If they arent, then the wizard didnt do wrong when he petitioned to ward away the hellcats. Bad things sometimes happen to good people. The party will, no doubt, sort the situtation out once your character is in the gem (which may be what the wizard's player was counting on). Better, he perhaps thought, to live on today and then to put the initiative in the party hands, despite how grim the decision may have seemed. You wont lose your character for good, i would say, should you get rescued afterwards. You may have lost it for good if the party was eaten by hellcats in the middle of the demons stronghold.
Levism84 10-12-04, 01:58 AM	This is a pretty mature group... "mature" in the fact they have "mature" story lines, "mature" plot twists, and "mature" character. The players are also, in my opinion, mature in the way they handle themselves in and out of game, but they are just trying to have a good time too. It might be my fault for playing a child character just to playtest some stuff for a campaign i want to run later, even if the DM did approve it. As far as the wizards double crossing the devil goes... a) the character he has up next (the dwarf bard) gets a "mug of holding" which basically can hold like 20 kegs full of liquid, and he can just keep drinkin 2) he is tired of being the party's taxi (which will probably fall on my "new" character if he kills my current one) And finally) he told me, in all seriousness "I'll probably wait until you are asleep, and be hanging over you with a dagger- ready to kill you- when pangs of guilt over come me. And as I waver, the devil will probably speak in my head and say something like 'hey, i'll give you a scroll of wish if you kill the kid,' and suddenly the guilt will be no more." The sad part is I've already told him my character doesn't need to sleep (for some reason I feel like people don't pay attention when I explain WHY my character is standing watch for ALL 3 shifts) and the way his character has been played so far (when my character was a wizard- long story- I would lend his character my spell book to copy my spells for free while he never let my character have a peak in his) it is something he (and the DM) would probably do. I dont believe they purposely mean to make trouble for me. As I said before, it is probably my fault for introducing too much childish material into the game. My only regrets are that i still havent gotten a chance to get enough supplies to make some stickers (magic item creation: craft stickers) and I haven't progressed far enough in my Guardian of Dreams class to actually "watch over" the dreams of others. Thanks though. ~Rain~
Conaill 10-12-04, 12:46 PM	And finally) he told me, in all seriousness "I'll probably wait until you are asleep, and be hanging over you with a dagger- ready to kill you- when pangs of guilt over come me. And as I waver, the devil will probably speak in my head and say something like 'hey, i'll give you a scroll of wish if you kill the kid,' and suddenly the guilt will be no more." And have you actually told him how you, as a player feel about that? If he's plainly telling you "I'm going to ruin your enjoyment of the game", then it seems to me something wrong is going on. This is why I suggested you sit down with the two of you AND THE DM. There should be *some* way out of this mess that will keep the game enjoyable for everyone. For example, you mentioned you can't actually watch over the dreams of others yet... perhaps your DM could give you a brief glimpse of the wizard's dreams? Nothing too specific, but enough to raise your character's guard?
Shard of Suzail 10-12-04, 06:42 PM	Well, its all very well, but in the event that the demon doesnt get the girl, then the party may well be spontaneously mangled by hellcats. There will be consequences if the deal goes sour. Is it not a worthy sacrifice to lay down ones life for the party to live another day? Regardless, if you get away, the wizard probably dies and loses his soul to the demon instead. Then it will probably come looking for the rest of you. I would be looking for other options than just stopping the wizard, if i were you.
Levism84 10-13-04, 08:02 PM	After thinking about it some more, i realize two of the party's expected jobs will be left empty when the wizard leaves the party (because either way it goes down he is going to be starting a new character). Those jobs are "taxi" and "stuff guy." Over the course of my experience with this group, it seems there has always been a sort of set of traits each person takes care of: "Religious Guy"- Eric has been in charge of being the party's melee religious guy (either druid or paladin). He at least understands the magic system and how to use it to full effect, and is generally good natured (druid pun) when it comes to his characters and how he plays them. Right now he is a paladin. "Kill it dead Guy"- Ryan has been the same character for almost a year now, a fighter/devoted defender specializing in the rapier. He is awesome...nay... unbeatable in fair combat, but gets pissy when we dont kill things every 5 minutes. He doesn't do much outside of killing. "Aloof Girly Guy"- Mark for some reason or another always plays a girl (though he isn't gay or anything, he really pulls the part off really good) and he tends to always be chaotic... very very chaotic. I recall one incident where we were helping an army build a stone wall and he was playing a psion (or a wilder... i forget) so he make a ectoplasmic part of the wall, which the army guys started to build and stand on... for a while... Subsiquently we were band from that country. Right now he is a good cleric, elf female with better than average "racial abilities" (if you know what i mean). "Responsible Guy"- Matt usually plays the technical guy, rogue or something like that, and right now he is running his own game at the same time as the DM I play with. His "character" is back in a town the party got on its feat, training farmers and the what not. "Plays to character Guy"- Charlie, when I first began playing, was Krusk the half-orc barbarian. Later, due to an enchanted sword, he turned evil, and the party killed him. Than he started Val, the high-elf wizard. Later, he will turn evil and the party will probably kill him. Reguardless, he always plays his characters very well, always tries to avoid metagaming, and he is one of the nicest people i know. But right now he pretty much devotes his entire 5th level spells slots to teleport, and his 7th to greater teleport. He also produces a bit of the magical items used by the party. Now he is planning on bringing in a VERY drunk dwarf bard. "The 'lets poke it to see what it does' Guy"- This would be me, or "push over guy" since i pretty much came in as the last member of the party and needed instruction as to what i needed to do to play. I was a fighter/bard (R.I.P.), an arcane engineer (later "converted" into my current character), a rogue/slayer of domiel (away), and now my wilder/imagineer/guardian of dreams. At least I have played enough classes to understand pretty much how everything works, so that is helpful, since i can pretty much play anything (from a purely technical standpoint). However, my current character has been called "something that if you squint really hard sort of looks like a rogue, from a distance" by the party's cleric (in game). "The new guy"- There is a new guy who has been looking for a group to game with, and he is going to be playing a rogue, since our party doesnt really have one right now anyway. His character, because he doesn't know the forces that drive the game yet, is going to have amnesia and secretly be evil. I don't really know what it is all about, but he seems like a good person to game with. That being said, my new character, if i have to make one, and even if i dont will probably have to fill the roll of party taxi and item builder. That in mind, I have created a back up character that I WILL be bringing in at 12th level, even if i die at 11th (shakes fist at not being able to get to 12th level because of character death for the past 2 characters). The character is going to use some of the other stuff I have created for the campaign I am hopefully going to run. I will probably post something on the character development board if it comes to it, so I can at least get some advice on my first attempt at playing a living construct cleric-type. Whoot ~Rain~
Dakkareth 10-17-04, 10:48 AM	Well, there's one big problem: The wizard can cast trap the soul on the gem and give it to you - if you take it, you're trapped, no save, no SR. Your sense motive being +0 and being a rogue-type this is kinda problematic.
Levism84 10-18-04, 12:56 PM	Ok, so i talked it all over with charlie (wizard guy planning on trapping my soul) and he ended up "giving the finger" to the bad guy when it came time to collect my soul, wandered off into a forsaken cave of doom and died heroicly fighting the forces of evil (enter his new character). Paladin tried doing the same thing, after he made a deal with the bad guy to trade HIS soul for MINE, but this was before he knew that charlie had gone and gotten himself blown up with hells fire. (Fight, Fight, Fight) Servent of Evil: Dead Charlie: Dead Paladin: Alive... mostly Other Servents of Evil: Dead Other Party members: Eagerly looting charlie's old character's stuff. I got two immovable rods, a wand of prestidigitation, and a nifty masterwork "walking stick" (it's not a weapon, it's a tool). Thanks guys. I still don't know what we are going to do for item creation and teleportation, but somehow I think we will be alright. PS- I made it to level 12! I can enter into people's dreams now! Chromatic dragons attacked the main continent while we were away and destroyed about 80% of everying! I wish I was a dragon slayer... (gulp). ~Rain~ Over and Out