Help me turn the tables [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help me turn the tables [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ein9
08-02-07, 01:53 AM So, I have a situation on my hands. I normally DM, but last session I swapped places with one of my players. We have a small group so we use 2 chars for each player.

I created a Druid and Wiz with core books only.

Because I know much more about DnD than the "player turned DM", I pretty much decimated every encounter he threw at the party.

Ended up using a summoned giant eagle to pick up the BBEG and throw him off a cliff, but I digress.

Upset and frustrated, he said he wanted to come up with an "unbeatable dungeon" for me, hoping to humiliate and humble me.

Basically, they gave me this to work with.

I get a lvl 6 Fighter, Sorc, Rogue, and a Cleric. Core Books only. Standard wealth for lvl 6 chars. (I do not know how much that is off the top of my head.

So I ask you: How would you make the chars for this, and what strategies would you use? I have my own ideas, but you never know what gem spell or tactic I might be missing out on.
shadowninja05
08-02-07, 02:09 AM Hm, um before I make any suggestions, are you controlling all four of those types of characters? Or do you choose two types for your group?
metalmayhem80110
08-02-07, 02:28 AM Lol I'd post this on the Char Op boards.
DrMorganes
08-02-07, 09:42 AM Just to clarify:

Does "Core" refer to the standard Big Three (PHB, DMG, MM), or is your DM including the PHB2 and DMG2 in this as well? Some folks are including PHB2 as "Core" these days, largely in part because of the changes in the polymorph rules and alterations to the Druid class.
Dag
08-02-07, 01:34 PM Not to spoil any fun by interjecting a note of honor into this thread, but I cant help wondering how fair it is that the DM challenges you yet what he is being opposed by is you and the collective brainstorming of the countless gamers that read and post here.

Make your characters, take his challenge, and if he beats you then tell him you want another shot with help from this forum.
If you decide not to tell him about the forum's assistance and you best him in this challenge then have the class not to gloat or rub it in.
Max_Graeves
08-02-07, 01:44 PM I'm assuming you left out the part where you acted like a conceited jerk throughout the gaming session...or at least, that's the impression I got from your post.

Sounds to me like you went out of your way to make the new DM feel powerless and inept, not to mention humiliated...not a very nice thing to do, if you ask me, and not suprising that he'd want to do the same thing to you.

If you're such an awesome gamer, why do you need our help?
Jenny With The Lantern
08-02-07, 02:10 PM It would be hilarious if he started the session with this one:
"You step into the dungeon and die horribly. I win!"

Because that's all he needs to do. A player can never go 1 on 1 with the DM because the DM makes the WORLD GO ROUND. I think this may end up causing a lot of hurt feelings. Give him a while to grow into it, apologize for embarrasing him last session and hold back a bit.

Everyone should get a bit of pratice in the big chair and by the looks of it you never gave him any room to try.
Zarron
08-02-07, 02:37 PM So totally have your fighter specialize in crossbows and tower shields.
ATroubledMarco
08-02-07, 05:52 PM It would be hilarious if he started the session with this one:
"You step into the dungeon and die horribly. I win!"

Indeed. While he probably won't be that obvious, chances are if he's really out to kill you, he'll have "fodder goblins" with +12 class levels, creatures with the legendary and paragon templates, dragons, demented dungeon traps that were not designed with a preconceived escape route, and the like. Unless he has some terms and limits placed on himself as well ("No encounter with an ECL higher than the party +6, no artifacts, everything has a way out"), your characters are signing their own death warrants.

The best thing to do, in my outsider's opinion, is probably give it a good shot, don't go crazy with the munchkining (though still design your characters well, of course), and don't let it get to you if he drops a huge tarrasque-sized (and possibly shaped) anvil onto your party. This kind of challenge is going to do more to hurt the group than decide anything if you decide to get into this competitive mood. This could be a good thing if you don't - it will let him test the extent of your characters, and build encounters modeled to be more of a challenge that suits you and your party.

And if you're also outshining the other players, you might want to consider asking the DM about downgrading your character a little. Throwing a villain to his death with a summoned familiar shows that you have a knack for intelligent tricks and maneuvers, so a few feats placed elsewhere shouldn't hurt you too much.
Ioosef
08-02-07, 06:52 PM Well... you should take his challenge, and build your party at the best of your ability, but if you lose, don't rub it in.
Anyway, I was thinking that you should make the fighter specilize in defense, let him take all the hits, then use him to flank with the rogue who's specialized in sneak attacks and searching traps. Then use the cleric to heal your fighter and perhaps summon a monster or two to serve as meat shield and protect the sorcerer. And the sorcerer specialize him in rays (mainly from the SC) and power words (Race of the Dragon).
ein9
08-02-07, 07:50 PM A big thanks to those who tried to help.

Basically, I would use the PHB, DMG, and MM to create 4 characters to try to beat this dungeon.

Well, we both agreed to have lvl 6th challenges in the dungeon, and no dues-ex'd death. It was more of a lighthearted challenge than an angry attempt at revenge, so it is more fun than anything else. By humiliate we mean, end up a shoe shine boy to a balor or have countless gelatinous cubes drop down from the ceiling, or get overrun by a horde of 1 HD house cats.

All in good fun really.

He gets the power trip all DMs should enjoy and a bit of revenge, I get to have some fun trying to win against all odds.

In retrospect, I should have probably toned down my chars a bit. I usually always DM, and got carried away with finally making my own chars. Using tips and tricks i learned from the CharOp boards was probably not the greatest thing to spring on a 2nd time DM.

I'm assuming you left out the part where you acted like a conceited jerk throughout the gaming session...or at least, that's the impression I got from your post.

Sounds to me like you went out of your way to make the new DM feel powerless and inept, not to mention humiliated...not a very nice thing to do, if you ask me, and not suprising that he'd want to do the same thing to you.

If you're such an awesome gamer, why do you need our help?

Woah there tiger, you know what they say about when you assume.

Its not like I tried to outshine him, but I just kind of did. I had no conscience thought "Oh man, I cant wait to thrash my friends dungeon and ideas and make him feel like a powerless bum, this will be great!"

Like I said, I just kind of did. During one encounter he threw legions of drueger at us. They pinned us down with crossbows, so I used a scroll of protection from arrows and fly on my wiz and become a flying fireball hurling harbinger of death.

And I don't believe I ever said that I am an awesome gamer, just better informed than my friend. Im sure there are people who more than I do, and could whip every encounter I throw at them.

So thus far my plan is this.

Use a dwarven fighter with a tower shield and dwarven waraxe and a cleric of pelor to protect my party as much as possible. Use a spiked chain wielding rogue and sorc with scrolls and wands to dish damage from behind the group. Most gold will be spent of raising AC for my members and handy magic items, like quaal's feather tokens, elixers of "whatever" and such.

I was asking for advice on spells or magic items that might have saved your hide once, or might be overlooked normally.

For example, I never thought the illusion school was particularly useful until my gnome wiz used a major image to create an image of a rockslide covering our party, giving the baddies the impression we died, and giving us time to escape.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ein9 08-02-07, 01:53 AM	So, I have a situation on my hands. I normally DM, but last session I swapped places with one of my players. We have a small group so we use 2 chars for each player. I created a Druid and Wiz with core books only. Because I know much more about DnD than the "player turned DM", I pretty much decimated every encounter he threw at the party. Ended up using a summoned giant eagle to pick up the BBEG and throw him off a cliff, but I digress. Upset and frustrated, he said he wanted to come up with an "unbeatable dungeon" for me, hoping to humiliate and humble me. Basically, they gave me this to work with. I get a lvl 6 Fighter, Sorc, Rogue, and a Cleric. Core Books only. Standard wealth for lvl 6 chars. (I do not know how much that is off the top of my head. So I ask you: How would you make the chars for this, and what strategies would you use? I have my own ideas, but you never know what gem spell or tactic I might be missing out on.
shadowninja05 08-02-07, 02:09 AM	Hm, um before I make any suggestions, are you controlling all four of those types of characters? Or do you choose two types for your group?
metalmayhem80110 08-02-07, 02:28 AM	Lol I'd post this on the Char Op boards.
DrMorganes 08-02-07, 09:42 AM	Just to clarify: Does "Core" refer to the standard Big Three (PHB, DMG, MM), or is your DM including the PHB2 and DMG2 in this as well? Some folks are including PHB2 as "Core" these days, largely in part because of the changes in the polymorph rules and alterations to the Druid class.
Dag 08-02-07, 01:34 PM	Not to spoil any fun by interjecting a note of honor into this thread, but I cant help wondering how fair it is that the DM challenges you yet what he is being opposed by is you and the collective brainstorming of the countless gamers that read and post here. Make your characters, take his challenge, and if he beats you then tell him you want another shot with help from this forum. If you decide not to tell him about the forum's assistance and you best him in this challenge then have the class not to gloat or rub it in.
Max_Graeves 08-02-07, 01:44 PM	I'm assuming you left out the part where you acted like a conceited jerk throughout the gaming session...or at least, that's the impression I got from your post. Sounds to me like you went out of your way to make the new DM feel powerless and inept, not to mention humiliated...not a very nice thing to do, if you ask me, and not suprising that he'd want to do the same thing to you. If you're such an awesome gamer, why do you need our help?
Jenny With The Lantern 08-02-07, 02:10 PM	It would be hilarious if he started the session with this one: "You step into the dungeon and die horribly. I win!" Because that's all he needs to do. A player can never go 1 on 1 with the DM because the DM makes the WORLD GO ROUND. I think this may end up causing a lot of hurt feelings. Give him a while to grow into it, apologize for embarrasing him last session and hold back a bit. Everyone should get a bit of pratice in the big chair and by the looks of it you never gave him any room to try.
Zarron 08-02-07, 02:37 PM	So totally have your fighter specialize in crossbows and tower shields.
ATroubledMarco 08-02-07, 05:52 PM	It would be hilarious if he started the session with this one: "You step into the dungeon and die horribly. I win!" Indeed. While he probably won't be that obvious, chances are if he's really out to kill you, he'll have "fodder goblins" with +12 class levels, creatures with the legendary and paragon templates, dragons, demented dungeon traps that were not designed with a preconceived escape route, and the like. Unless he has some terms and limits placed on himself as well ("No encounter with an ECL higher than the party +6, no artifacts, everything has a way out"), your characters are signing their own death warrants. The best thing to do, in my outsider's opinion, is probably give it a good shot, don't go crazy with the munchkining (though still design your characters well, of course), and don't let it get to you if he drops a huge tarrasque-sized (and possibly shaped) anvil onto your party. This kind of challenge is going to do more to hurt the group than decide anything if you decide to get into this competitive mood. This could be a good thing if you don't - it will let him test the extent of your characters, and build encounters modeled to be more of a challenge that suits you and your party. And if you're also outshining the other players, you might want to consider asking the DM about downgrading your character a little. Throwing a villain to his death with a summoned familiar shows that you have a knack for intelligent tricks and maneuvers, so a few feats placed elsewhere shouldn't hurt you too much.
Ioosef 08-02-07, 06:52 PM	Well... you should take his challenge, and build your party at the best of your ability, but if you lose, don't rub it in. Anyway, I was thinking that you should make the fighter specilize in defense, let him take all the hits, then use him to flank with the rogue who's specialized in sneak attacks and searching traps. Then use the cleric to heal your fighter and perhaps summon a monster or two to serve as meat shield and protect the sorcerer. And the sorcerer specialize him in rays (mainly from the SC) and power words (Race of the Dragon).
ein9 08-02-07, 07:50 PM	A big thanks to those who tried to help. Basically, I would use the PHB, DMG, and MM to create 4 characters to try to beat this dungeon. Well, we both agreed to have lvl 6th challenges in the dungeon, and no dues-ex'd death. It was more of a lighthearted challenge than an angry attempt at revenge, so it is more fun than anything else. By humiliate we mean, end up a shoe shine boy to a balor or have countless gelatinous cubes drop down from the ceiling, or get overrun by a horde of 1 HD house cats. All in good fun really. He gets the power trip all DMs should enjoy and a bit of revenge, I get to have some fun trying to win against all odds. In retrospect, I should have probably toned down my chars a bit. I usually always DM, and got carried away with finally making my own chars. Using tips and tricks i learned from the CharOp boards was probably not the greatest thing to spring on a 2nd time DM. I'm assuming you left out the part where you acted like a conceited jerk throughout the gaming session...or at least, that's the impression I got from your post. Sounds to me like you went out of your way to make the new DM feel powerless and inept, not to mention humiliated...not a very nice thing to do, if you ask me, and not suprising that he'd want to do the same thing to you. If you're such an awesome gamer, why do you need our help? Woah there tiger, you know what they say about when you assume. Its not like I tried to outshine him, but I just kind of did. I had no conscience thought "Oh man, I cant wait to thrash my friends dungeon and ideas and make him feel like a powerless bum, this will be great!" Like I said, I just kind of did. During one encounter he threw legions of drueger at us. They pinned us down with crossbows, so I used a scroll of protection from arrows and fly on my wiz and become a flying fireball hurling harbinger of death. And I don't believe I ever said that I am an awesome gamer, just better informed than my friend. Im sure there are people who more than I do, and could whip every encounter I throw at them. So thus far my plan is this. Use a dwarven fighter with a tower shield and dwarven waraxe and a cleric of pelor to protect my party as much as possible. Use a spiked chain wielding rogue and sorc with scrolls and wands to dish damage from behind the group. Most gold will be spent of raising AC for my members and handy magic items, like quaal's feather tokens, elixers of "whatever" and such. I was asking for advice on spells or magic items that might have saved your hide once, or might be overlooked normally. For example, I never thought the illusion school was particularly useful until my gnome wiz used a major image to create an image of a rockslide covering our party, giving the baddies the impression we died, and giving us time to escape.