Help me with Monk and Bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help me with Monk and Bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
windoze9x
07-27-07, 12:22 PM Hi guys this is my first post but i need some help. I just got some friends to play d&d with me and my friend (the DM). One wanted to be a gnome monk and the other wanted to be a halfling bard. While I was helping them create their characters (using only core rules) I couldn't help but think "man these guys are weak and useless in combat". Maybe I'm overlooking their special abilities but I don't know. Also I need to research but they got my PHB. Monks take attacks of opportunity while they fight unarmed right?? If so this is complete garbage. I'm just having trouble forseeing survival. I was hoping my cleric would have to do light combat and be the boring healer but it's looking more and more like I'm gonna be the "tank" of the group while they run around sucking. Am I completely wrong? Please tell me I am. Please give me some ways I can make these guys rock in combat (using core rules) and smite the DM teasing me about my weak party haha.
Count_Chumleigh
07-27-07, 12:25 PM Unless you're DMing, don't worry about the mechanics of their characters; it ain't your job. Well, okay, it sort-of becomes your job if you suspect them of cheating, but the game hasn't even started yet from the sound of things, so it isn't an issue.

Cheers,
--Count Chumleigh
Einvaldurinn_mikli
07-27-07, 12:29 PM The Monk won't provoke AoO. He gets Improved Unarmes Strike as a bonus feat. But yeah, they will suck. Monk is an awful class and unless you know a little what you are doing, so is the bard.
windoze9x
07-27-07, 12:39 PM Wow thanks for the quick replies! I'm really glad about the lack of attacks of opportunities. I'm a somewhat newer player myself (to 3.5ed atleast) and have never played a Monk OR Bard. I didn't want to force the new players into being a class they didn't wanna be but I was just worried about being too weak. Especially since both the Bard and the Monk are small size characters making them even weaker on the offense! Also I agree on the point that the DM should worry about game mechanics but the DM is somewhat inexperienced and has a history of slaughtering characters. This is something I hope will change and have talked to him about. There needs to be a balance in the challenge to make the game fun. But yeah tonight I'm meeting with the players and we are gonna examine our sheets and kind try to come up with a game plan on how we are gonna destroy things haha. Maybe I'll make up some mock battles so we can come up with some strategic ideas. I really want this party to live and progress.
Count_Chumleigh
07-27-07, 12:50 PM The Monk won't provoke AoO. He gets Improved Unarmes Strike as a bonus feat. But yeah, they will suck. Monk is an awful class and unless you know a little what you are doing, so is the bard.

All true, sad as some of it may be. Even sadder is the fact that, technically, by the literal interpretation of the rules, a monk may have Improved Unarmed Strike and get all that nifty extra damage, Stunning Fist, and Flurry of Blows, but for some reason isn't listed as being proficient with his unarmed strike. A sorcerer, bard, or bugbear is, but most humanoid, 1st-level monks aren't, technically. No DM in the world will ever run a game that way, mind you, but still ...

Also, gnome and monk do not mix well except in certain rules-heavy circumstances that I don't own the books to explain. The CharOp boards have the builds, though.

I agree on the point that the DM should worry about game mechanics but the DM is somewhat inexperienced and has a history of slaughtering characters. This is something I hope will change and have talked to him about. There needs to be a balance in the challenge to make the game fun. But yeah tonight I'm meeting with the players and we are gonna examine our sheets and kind try to come up with a game plan on how we are gonna destroy things haha. Maybe I'll make up some mock battles so we can come up with some strategic ideas. I really want this party to live and progress.

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but have you considered running the game rather than this DM you're so apparently worried about? You seem awfully involved for a player--I've certainly never run mock combats for anyone except when I've DMed--and you may face some power-struggles if you continue to be this way while in the DM's game.

Cheers,
--Count Chumleigh
Comus
07-27-07, 01:17 PM Bard is a good class, one of my favorites. The thing you have to remember, though, is that Bard is not a class that fights. They're supposed to stop combat before it starts.

Monk, unfortunately, I don't personally like, though I hear it's good against enemy wizards and sorcs due to good saves, fast movement, and using grapple as a tactic... note that it isn't particularly great at grappling, and a Fighter will almost always have a higher grapple check, but that's besides the point.
MareltEkiran
07-27-07, 01:29 PM Yeah... small sized monks are really not worth it. The lesser damage you do is really not worth the one point of extra AC and you lose the one good strategy that monks have... which is grappling combat.

The halfling bard should do just fine, though. He'll be relatively hard to hit or be affected by spells and as long as he has a decent charisma, he can use his bardic music and spells from a distance.

Also... I believe that by definition, a creature is proficient with his own natural weapons... Human fists just happen to be non-lethal weapons by themselves (for one, a human commoner takes no penalty when attacking with his fists, as long as he deals non-lethal damage with them).
Count_Chumleigh
07-27-07, 02:13 PM Also... I believe that by definition, a creature is proficient with his own natural weapons... Human fists just happen to be non-lethal weapons by themselves (for one, a human commoner takes no penalty when attacking with his fists, as long as he deals non-lethal damage with them).

You'd think so, but on the equipment lists "Unarmed Strike" appears on the "Simple Weapons" table. But that's part of a long, drawn-out, and silly argument that I'm not prepared to make today, or ever again.

Cheers,
--Count Chumleigh
Infernostrider
07-27-07, 02:21 PM 1: a good DM can match his adventures to the classes that are playing them..to a certain degree at least
2: i'm not a fan of bards, but they are good npc support characters imo
3: monks, on higher levels, can be quite strong actually
Infernostrider
07-27-07, 02:25 PM You'd think so, but on the equipment lists "Unarmed Strike" appears on the "Simple Weapons" table. But that's part of a long, drawn-out, and silly argument that I'm not prepared to make today, or ever again.

Cheers,
--Count Chumleigh

i think wielding spiked gloves or other items one can use to enhance the unarmed damage, by basicly extending the fist with a sharp blade or spike, can be considered an unarmed strike except that its lethal. pretty sure about a glove, a claw or blade strapped to the fist is lost easier however and thus i'm not at all sure about that one...those would both be simple weapons though
Onikani
07-27-07, 04:19 PM gauntlets automatically make 'unarmed' attacks deal lehtal damage.

But gauntlet is not on the monks weapon list. This is a slew of argument on both sides of this issue, and i really don't want to bring it up.

oops.
:rolleyes:
Count_Chumleigh
07-27-07, 09:30 PM gauntlets automatically make 'unarmed' attacks deal lehtal damage.

But gauntlet is not on the monks weapon list. This is a slew of argument on both sides of this issue, and i really don't want to bring it up.

oops.
:rolleyes:

*sigh*

Well, the cat's out of the bag, no matter how little anyone here wants it, so I'm going to state my OFFICIAL FOR-REALS STANCE ON THIS STUPID ARGUMENT FOR-REALS and be done with it. Here goes:

Monks receive the feat Improved Unarmed Strike for free, which has no prerequisites and confers the following benefits:

You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

Note how Improved Unarmed Strike does not, for whatever reason, grant proficiency with the unarmed strike. Furthermore, the unarmed strike is listed in the equipment section as a Simple Weapon.

Meanwhile, Monks are not proficient with all Simple Weapons, but rather the following specific and limited list:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Note how the unarmed strike does not appear on that list.

Let us suppose, however, that the unarmed strike is not in fact to be treated as a Simple Weapon that rogues, bards, sorcerers, and fighters, among other, are proficient with, but the monk, wizard, and druid not. Let us suppose, instead, that it is a Natural Weapon, the sort of thing animals, monsters, and the occasional humanoid with multiple racial hit dice use to devour the peasantry. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that most PC monks are going to be humanoids, since, well, all of the core races are humanoids. The "humanoid" entry on the SRD says the following:

Humanoid Type

A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.
Features

A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
* Base attack bonus equal to ľ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.

Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

Thus, most humanoid PC monks will not, in fact, be proficient with their unarmed strikes, as they will be getting all of their weapon and armor proficiencies from their character class, which in the monk's case does not grant proficiency with the unarmed strike. A bugbear monk, however, would be proficient with its unarmed strike, since it is a Simple Weapon and the bugbear, having three racial hit dice, is considered proficient with all Simple Weapons.

THEREFORE, monks are not technically proficient with their unarmed strikes. Is this a stupid rule? Of course! Does any DM use this rule? Of course not! In fact, you need to be a borderline-OCD case like me to even be aware that this rule exists, because it's so basic a concept that the class whose unarmed strike gets better as it levels ought to at least be proficient with it, that every DM house-rules that way even if he's not aware of doing it.

There, I've told my story, and I'm not going to get into another argument over it. Because that's dumber than the rule I'm arguing exists.

Cheers,
--Count Chumleigh
queenfange
07-27-07, 09:47 PM 1: a good DM can match his adventures to the classes that are playing them..to a certain degree at least
2: i'm not a fan of bards, but they are good npc support characters imo
3: monks, on higher levels, can be quite strong actually

Hear, hear! Monks and bards do not suck, and even if they do, a good DM can adjust encounters accordingly (and should already be doing so since the group is half the typical size).

Cheers to Count_Chumleigh and his OCD. I'm quite amazed.

House rule I ues... I make special gloves that NPCs (and PCs) can wear that act as magic weapons for unarmed strikes. For example a +1 glove makes your hand act as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus on it. It allows me to avoid gauntlets, which I personally don't care for.
kelvinaw273
07-28-07, 08:57 AM Monks and bards are great fifth-wheel characters, and great generalists. They are not good at specialization, true, but they can work very effectively together.

The Bard has skills, arcane magic (including healing), and special abilities. He isn't so great at fighting, but he can at a pinch. The best roles he can fulfill in a party are Spare Tire (fill in for anyone else out of action) and Buffmeister. Bard is great for making everyone else work better.

The Monk has skills, some nifty abilities, very little equipment dependence and awesome saves. His best party role is as mobile reserve: battles are won by "fastest with the mostest" and the monk gets there fastest. Fighter in trouble? Monk helps out. Enemy spellcaster? Monk flanks them. Rogue gets isolated? Monk dashes in. Own wizards attacked? Monk to the rescue.

Monks are not grapple monsters (although they can take it, it's not where they excel at), monks are best using speed and multiple attacks to get in, hit hard and get out. Let the fighter square off with the ogre boss, the monk can take care of all the goblin minions with flurry of blows, then flank the boss and lay a stunning fist on him.

Now with the Monk and Bard pair, their best tactic is for the Bard to buff (and heal) the Monk, or else weaken the enemy so he can put in a good take-down.
CaoSlayer
07-28-07, 11:29 AM Combat-wise a bard can just end a fight without directly killing anyone.

Just read the effects of spells such as charm person, hideous laughter, hold person, glitterdust, confusion, dominate person or Otto´s dance.

And now take your time and read fascinate and suggestion because I can bet a vorpal sword that you have no idea of how unstoppable is fascinate followed by five or more suggestions.

Bards (usually) dont kill, they just do others kill for them.
windoze9x
07-29-07, 10:04 AM We had our gaming session and it was pretty freaking fun. Half role playing and half combat approximately. Fought some kobolds and a couple zombies. It was pretty fun. We did well even though some of the strategies we had worked out before hand didn't come into play. I have a lot of really good buff up spells as a cleric with protection from evil and shield of faith so that helped us some. The bard and I were the negotiators through most the role playing. It was funny cause I decided that even though my dwarf does not have an exceptionally high charisma...he really likes to talk haha. He likes to threaten people too if he thinks they are holding back on him. And then we had the Bard being all nice and balancing the interrogations. It was like good cop bad cop. Although in some encounters we had to reverse roles. The person picking the bard picked chaotic neutral which is so good cause she wasn't sure how she wanted to treat people and went from nice to mean at slightest whim! Anyway it was super fun. Thanks for the suggestions and everything :).
MSW
07-30-07, 06:58 PM Hi guys this is my first post but i need some help. I just got some friends to play d&d with me and my friend (the DM). One wanted to be a gnome monk and the other wanted to be a halfling bard. While I was helping them create their characters (using only core rules) I couldn't help but think "man these guys are weak and useless in combat". Maybe I'm overlooking their special abilities but I don't know. Also I need to research but they got my PHB. Monks take attacks of opportunity while they fight unarmed right?? If so this is complete garbage. I'm just having trouble forseeing survival. I was hoping my cleric would have to do light combat and be the boring healer but it's looking more and more like I'm gonna be the "tank" of the group while they run around sucking. Am I completely wrong? Please tell me I am. Please give me some ways I can make these guys rock in combat (using core rules) and smite the DM teasing me about my weak party haha.

A Cleric should be the tank since he can wear the heavy plate armor and use the heavy shiel. Also having a Bard and a Monk isn't that bad of a deal. If the Bard takes Perform Wind Instruments and gets a horn, he can add +2 to hit and to damage using his bread and butter "Inspire Courace" Bardinc music feature. He should take "Lingering Song" as one of his feats. So 1 round of playing music makes the effect last for 1 minute after he stops (10 rounds.)

Now add that +2 to hit and +2 to damage onto the Monk. He can "Flurry" for free or if he takes a single attack, can hit at +2 + STR + BaB.

Don't forget to add the +2 to hit and to damage to your character too.

Your roll will change as everyone levels. Right now you are the heavy armored tank and healer. It will be that way for the first 5-6 levels. After that the Monk will become more capable at fighting, and with your buffing, able to do more front line work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
windoze9x 07-27-07, 12:22 PM	Hi guys this is my first post but i need some help. I just got some friends to play d&d with me and my friend (the DM). One wanted to be a gnome monk and the other wanted to be a halfling bard. While I was helping them create their characters (using only core rules) I couldn't help but think "man these guys are weak and useless in combat". Maybe I'm overlooking their special abilities but I don't know. Also I need to research but they got my PHB. Monks take attacks of opportunity while they fight unarmed right?? If so this is complete garbage. I'm just having trouble forseeing survival. I was hoping my cleric would have to do light combat and be the boring healer but it's looking more and more like I'm gonna be the "tank" of the group while they run around sucking. Am I completely wrong? Please tell me I am. Please give me some ways I can make these guys rock in combat (using core rules) and smite the DM teasing me about my weak party haha.
Count_Chumleigh 07-27-07, 12:25 PM	Unless you're DMing, don't worry about the mechanics of their characters; it ain't your job. Well, okay, it sort-of becomes your job if you suspect them of cheating, but the game hasn't even started yet from the sound of things, so it isn't an issue. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Einvaldurinn_mikli 07-27-07, 12:29 PM	The Monk won't provoke AoO. He gets Improved Unarmes Strike as a bonus feat. But yeah, they will suck. Monk is an awful class and unless you know a little what you are doing, so is the bard.
windoze9x 07-27-07, 12:39 PM	Wow thanks for the quick replies! I'm really glad about the lack of attacks of opportunities. I'm a somewhat newer player myself (to 3.5ed atleast) and have never played a Monk OR Bard. I didn't want to force the new players into being a class they didn't wanna be but I was just worried about being too weak. Especially since both the Bard and the Monk are small size characters making them even weaker on the offense! Also I agree on the point that the DM should worry about game mechanics but the DM is somewhat inexperienced and has a history of slaughtering characters. This is something I hope will change and have talked to him about. There needs to be a balance in the challenge to make the game fun. But yeah tonight I'm meeting with the players and we are gonna examine our sheets and kind try to come up with a game plan on how we are gonna destroy things haha. Maybe I'll make up some mock battles so we can come up with some strategic ideas. I really want this party to live and progress.
Count_Chumleigh 07-27-07, 12:50 PM	The Monk won't provoke AoO. He gets Improved Unarmes Strike as a bonus feat. But yeah, they will suck. Monk is an awful class and unless you know a little what you are doing, so is the bard. All true, sad as some of it may be. Even sadder is the fact that, technically, by the literal interpretation of the rules, a monk may have Improved Unarmed Strike and get all that nifty extra damage, Stunning Fist, and Flurry of Blows, but for some reason isn't listed as being proficient with his unarmed strike. A sorcerer, bard, or bugbear is, but most humanoid, 1st-level monks aren't, technically. No DM in the world will ever run a game that way, mind you, but still ... Also, gnome and monk do not mix well except in certain rules-heavy circumstances that I don't own the books to explain. The CharOp boards have the builds, though. I agree on the point that the DM should worry about game mechanics but the DM is somewhat inexperienced and has a history of slaughtering characters. This is something I hope will change and have talked to him about. There needs to be a balance in the challenge to make the game fun. But yeah tonight I'm meeting with the players and we are gonna examine our sheets and kind try to come up with a game plan on how we are gonna destroy things haha. Maybe I'll make up some mock battles so we can come up with some strategic ideas. I really want this party to live and progress. I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but have you considered running the game rather than this DM you're so apparently worried about? You seem awfully involved for a player--I've certainly never run mock combats for anyone except when I've DMed--and you may face some power-struggles if you continue to be this way while in the DM's game. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Comus 07-27-07, 01:17 PM	Bard is a good class, one of my favorites. The thing you have to remember, though, is that Bard is not a class that fights. They're supposed to stop combat before it starts. Monk, unfortunately, I don't personally like, though I hear it's good against enemy wizards and sorcs due to good saves, fast movement, and using grapple as a tactic... note that it isn't particularly great at grappling, and a Fighter will almost always have a higher grapple check, but that's besides the point.
MareltEkiran 07-27-07, 01:29 PM	Yeah... small sized monks are really not worth it. The lesser damage you do is really not worth the one point of extra AC and you lose the one good strategy that monks have... which is grappling combat. The halfling bard should do just fine, though. He'll be relatively hard to hit or be affected by spells and as long as he has a decent charisma, he can use his bardic music and spells from a distance. Also... I believe that by definition, a creature is proficient with his own natural weapons... Human fists just happen to be non-lethal weapons by themselves (for one, a human commoner takes no penalty when attacking with his fists, as long as he deals non-lethal damage with them).
Count_Chumleigh 07-27-07, 02:13 PM	Also... I believe that by definition, a creature is proficient with his own natural weapons... Human fists just happen to be non-lethal weapons by themselves (for one, a human commoner takes no penalty when attacking with his fists, as long as he deals non-lethal damage with them). You'd think so, but on the equipment lists "Unarmed Strike" appears on the "Simple Weapons" table. But that's part of a long, drawn-out, and silly argument that I'm not prepared to make today, or ever again. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Infernostrider 07-27-07, 02:21 PM	1: a good DM can match his adventures to the classes that are playing them..to a certain degree at least 2: i'm not a fan of bards, but they are good npc support characters imo 3: monks, on higher levels, can be quite strong actually
Infernostrider 07-27-07, 02:25 PM	You'd think so, but on the equipment lists "Unarmed Strike" appears on the "Simple Weapons" table. But that's part of a long, drawn-out, and silly argument that I'm not prepared to make today, or ever again. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh i think wielding spiked gloves or other items one can use to enhance the unarmed damage, by basicly extending the fist with a sharp blade or spike, can be considered an unarmed strike except that its lethal. pretty sure about a glove, a claw or blade strapped to the fist is lost easier however and thus i'm not at all sure about that one...those would both be simple weapons though
Onikani 07-27-07, 04:19 PM	gauntlets automatically make 'unarmed' attacks deal lehtal damage. But gauntlet is not on the monks weapon list. This is a slew of argument on both sides of this issue, and i really don't want to bring it up. oops. :rolleyes:
Count_Chumleigh 07-27-07, 09:30 PM	gauntlets automatically make 'unarmed' attacks deal lehtal damage. But gauntlet is not on the monks weapon list. This is a slew of argument on both sides of this issue, and i really don't want to bring it up. oops. :rolleyes: sigh Well, the cat's out of the bag, no matter how little anyone here wants it, so I'm going to state my OFFICIAL FOR-REALS STANCE ON THIS STUPID ARGUMENT FOR-REALS and be done with it. Here goes: Monks receive the feat Improved Unarmed Strike for free, which has no prerequisites and confers the following benefits: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. Note how Improved Unarmed Strike does not, for whatever reason, grant proficiency with the unarmed strike. Furthermore, the unarmed strike is listed in the equipment section as a Simple Weapon. Meanwhile, Monks are not proficient with all Simple Weapons, but rather the following specific and limited list: Weapon and Armor Proficiency Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. Note how the unarmed strike does not appear on that list. Let us suppose, however, that the unarmed strike is not in fact to be treated as a Simple Weapon that rogues, bards, sorcerers, and fighters, among other, are proficient with, but the monk, wizard, and druid not. Let us suppose, instead, that it is a Natural Weapon, the sort of thing animals, monsters, and the occasional humanoid with multiple racial hit dice use to devour the peasantry. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that most PC monks are going to be humanoids, since, well, all of the core races are humanoids. The "humanoid" entry on the SRD says the following: Humanoid Type A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype. Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type. Features A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class. * Base attack bonus equal to ľ total Hit Dice (as cleric). * Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies). * Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class. Traits A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. * Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. * Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep. Thus, most humanoid PC monks will not, in fact, be proficient with their unarmed strikes, as they will be getting all of their weapon and armor proficiencies from their character class, which in the monk's case does not grant proficiency with the unarmed strike. A bugbear monk, however, would be proficient with its unarmed strike, since it is a Simple Weapon and the bugbear, having three racial hit dice, is considered proficient with all Simple Weapons. THEREFORE, monks are not technically proficient with their unarmed strikes. Is this a stupid rule? Of course! Does any DM use this rule? Of course not! In fact, you need to be a borderline-OCD case like me to even be aware that this rule exists, because it's so basic a concept that the class whose unarmed strike gets better as it levels ought to at least be proficient with it, that every DM house-rules that way even if he's not aware of doing it. There, I've told my story, and I'm not going to get into another argument over it. Because that's dumber than the rule I'm arguing exists. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
queenfange 07-27-07, 09:47 PM	1: a good DM can match his adventures to the classes that are playing them..to a certain degree at least 2: i'm not a fan of bards, but they are good npc support characters imo 3: monks, on higher levels, can be quite strong actually Hear, hear! Monks and bards do not suck, and even if they do, a good DM can adjust encounters accordingly (and should already be doing so since the group is half the typical size). Cheers to Count_Chumleigh and his OCD. I'm quite amazed. House rule I ues... I make special gloves that NPCs (and PCs) can wear that act as magic weapons for unarmed strikes. For example a +1 glove makes your hand act as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus on it. It allows me to avoid gauntlets, which I personally don't care for.
kelvinaw273 07-28-07, 08:57 AM	Monks and bards are great fifth-wheel characters, and great generalists. They are not good at specialization, true, but they can work very effectively together. The Bard has skills, arcane magic (including healing), and special abilities. He isn't so great at fighting, but he can at a pinch. The best roles he can fulfill in a party are Spare Tire (fill in for anyone else out of action) and Buffmeister. Bard is great for making everyone else work better. The Monk has skills, some nifty abilities, very little equipment dependence and awesome saves. His best party role is as mobile reserve: battles are won by "fastest with the mostest" and the monk gets there fastest. Fighter in trouble? Monk helps out. Enemy spellcaster? Monk flanks them. Rogue gets isolated? Monk dashes in. Own wizards attacked? Monk to the rescue. Monks are not grapple monsters (although they can take it, it's not where they excel at), monks are best using speed and multiple attacks to get in, hit hard and get out. Let the fighter square off with the ogre boss, the monk can take care of all the goblin minions with flurry of blows, then flank the boss and lay a stunning fist on him. Now with the Monk and Bard pair, their best tactic is for the Bard to buff (and heal) the Monk, or else weaken the enemy so he can put in a good take-down.
CaoSlayer 07-28-07, 11:29 AM	Combat-wise a bard can just end a fight without directly killing anyone. Just read the effects of spells such as charm person, hideous laughter, hold person, glitterdust, confusion, dominate person or Otto´s dance. And now take your time and read fascinate and suggestion because I can bet a vorpal sword that you have no idea of how unstoppable is fascinate followed by five or more suggestions. Bards (usually) dont kill, they just do others kill for them.
windoze9x 07-29-07, 10:04 AM	We had our gaming session and it was pretty freaking fun. Half role playing and half combat approximately. Fought some kobolds and a couple zombies. It was pretty fun. We did well even though some of the strategies we had worked out before hand didn't come into play. I have a lot of really good buff up spells as a cleric with protection from evil and shield of faith so that helped us some. The bard and I were the negotiators through most the role playing. It was funny cause I decided that even though my dwarf does not have an exceptionally high charisma...he really likes to talk haha. He likes to threaten people too if he thinks they are holding back on him. And then we had the Bard being all nice and balancing the interrogations. It was like good cop bad cop. Although in some encounters we had to reverse roles. The person picking the bard picked chaotic neutral which is so good cause she wasn't sure how she wanted to treat people and went from nice to mean at slightest whim! Anyway it was super fun. Thanks for the suggestions and everything :).
MSW 07-30-07, 06:58 PM	Hi guys this is my first post but i need some help. I just got some friends to play d&d with me and my friend (the DM). One wanted to be a gnome monk and the other wanted to be a halfling bard. While I was helping them create their characters (using only core rules) I couldn't help but think "man these guys are weak and useless in combat". Maybe I'm overlooking their special abilities but I don't know. Also I need to research but they got my PHB. Monks take attacks of opportunity while they fight unarmed right?? If so this is complete garbage. I'm just having trouble forseeing survival. I was hoping my cleric would have to do light combat and be the boring healer but it's looking more and more like I'm gonna be the "tank" of the group while they run around sucking. Am I completely wrong? Please tell me I am. Please give me some ways I can make these guys rock in combat (using core rules) and smite the DM teasing me about my weak party haha. A Cleric should be the tank since he can wear the heavy plate armor and use the heavy shiel. Also having a Bard and a Monk isn't that bad of a deal. If the Bard takes Perform Wind Instruments and gets a horn, he can add +2 to hit and to damage using his bread and butter "Inspire Courace" Bardinc music feature. He should take "Lingering Song" as one of his feats. So 1 round of playing music makes the effect last for 1 minute after he stops (10 rounds.) Now add that +2 to hit and +2 to damage onto the Monk. He can "Flurry" for free or if he takes a single attack, can hit at +2 + STR + BaB. Don't forget to add the +2 to hit and to damage to your character too. Your roll will change as everyone levels. Right now you are the heavy armored tank and healer. It will be that way for the first 5-6 levels. After that the Monk will become more capable at fighting, and with your buffing, able to do more front line work.