Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 03:27 PM	Okay so he isn't uncharasmatic But it's still only 13 I was just wondering if anybody knows a way to still make him effective. Thanks for the advice
Prator_the_Legendary 03-13-07, 03:42 PM	Mmmmmm... No. You'd have to put EVERY stat point you ever got into charisma, and you still wouldn't be able to case 9th level spells by level 20. Your character is basically doomed, because you've fatally crippled the one stat his entire class depends on. Was 13 really the highest stat you rolled?
DM_V2 03-13-07, 03:43 PM	:eek::weep: Ouch...Wow...Well what level is he? Why would you ever put a 13 in charisma?! Did you roll really badly?! DOES YOUR DM HAVE NO SYMPATHY?! I really need the whole story before I can give you advice, but in short a scorceror with a charisma of 13 will REALLY, REALLY suck witout alot of items. A level 1 commoner would be able to beat his/her save DCs and he/she can only cast 3rd level spells.
High Octane 03-13-07, 03:51 PM	2 small lines make a 13 an 18. That or freaking REROLL!
Sikyanakotik 03-13-07, 03:53 PM	A Cloak of Charisma should help you out. You might also want to stick to spells that don't allow saving throws. Either that or take the rest of your levels in a martial class, then use your Sorcerer level to qualify for Dragon Disciple.
Aegeu 03-13-07, 04:06 PM	Gaah! How did you expect this to be a viable idea? If 13 was the highest stat you rolled, then you probably qualify for a "hopeless character" reroll. If 13 was not the highest stat you rolled, then you need to do some :censored: big rebuilding. Seriously, with a 13 charisma, you can only cast 3rd level spells. Even with a cloak of charisma +6, you'll only barely get 9th level spells.
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 04:15 PM	Ok, I'll tell the whole story Though I did avoid it because I'll get called stupid. My rolls were 15 14 12 13 13 15 But I'm a Fire Genasi whick is +2 Int -2 Cha and now I have the awesome Idea of a Fire Genasi who specialises in irey spells and would soon take Elemental Savant as a class. My scores were worse and adde up to a -1 modifier so I got to reroll. My other choice was a Sorcoer Necrmancer but it idn't fit into the theme of the campaign. So go ahead tell me how crap I am And Yes I have been told I'd make a better Wizard but they don't intrest me as much
DarkNick 03-13-07, 04:31 PM	Just do the best you can... Your charisma won't make any difference to many of the spells you can cast (especially if you are specialising in fire). I think it will be a perfectly servicable character. Give him a good personality, some solid goals. All good. Maybe take some cleric levels with fire domain for a bit more versitility.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-13-07, 04:32 PM	Ok, I'll tell the whole story Though I did avoid it because I'll get called stupid. My rolls were 15 14 12 13 13 15 But I'm a Fire Genasi whick is +2 Int -2 Cha and now I have the awesome Idea of a Fire Genasi who specialises in irey spells and would soon take Elemental Savant as a class. My scores were worse and adde up to a -1 modifier so I got to reroll. My other choice was a Sorcoer Necrmancer but it idn't fit into the theme of the campaign. Ask your DM to swap stat points, in other words lower one stat to raise another. Otherwise ask him to use the rebuilding rules in the PHB II (which, if he says they're overpowered, they're NOT) and rebuild your character with a higher Charisma and without the words 'Fire' and, preferably, 'Genasi' on his 'Race' line. So go ahead tell me how crap I am Nah, just make it right. And Yes I have been told I'd make a better Wizard but they don't intrest me as much Good man. Wizards may be powerful but they're silly as hell and will get no chicks.
High Octane 03-13-07, 05:00 PM	A. Be a WIZARD. B. See A.
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 05:22 PM	Ask your DM to swap stat points, in other words lower one stat to raise another. Otherwise ask him to use the rebuilding rules in the PHB II (which, if he says they're overpowered, they're NOT) and rebuild your character with a higher Charisma and without the words 'Fire' and, preferably, 'Genasi' on his 'Race' line. I'm getting my DM to have a look. But why change it's race name. It's like a point buy thing but you roll the amount of points you get. Does it have to be done in game like it says? A. Be a WIZARD. B. See A. Um.....Shh
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-13-07, 05:30 PM	But why change it's race name. That's not what I meant.Change the race you're playing. Does it have to be done in game like it says? Yes. You basically take a short metagaming session to remake your character using the rules given.
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 05:39 PM	Is it possible to do it before the game starts and do you do it with ability mods applied What I mean is, do I raise Cha 13 or Cha 15 I want to be a Fire Genasi I'm jus rebuilding it's abilities instead
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-13-07, 05:49 PM	Is it possible to do it before the game starts and do you do it with ability mods applied It's an in-game thing. They suggest requiring quests to be performed before being allowed to do this. If your DM is letting you do it right now, then that's just fine. What I mean is, do I raise Cha 13 or Cha 15 I want to be a Fire Genasi I'm jus rebuilding it's abilities instead If I were you, I wouldn't play a Fire Genasi. Not only do they have a penalty to Charisma, but don't they also have a LA? Both of those factors are what kills a good Sorcerer build. If you really, really want to play a Fire Genasi, siphon a little bit off the other ability scores to raise it to 16 (the maximum starting Charisma for a race with a -2 racial penalty to it).
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 05:59 PM	It's an in-game thing. They suggest requiring quests to be performed before being allowed to do this. If your DM is letting you do it right now, then that's just fine. If I were you, I wouldn't play a Fire Genasi. Not only do they have a penalty to Charisma, but don't they also have a LA? Both of those factors are what kills a good Sorcerer build. If you really, really want to play a Fire Genasi, siphon a little bit off the other ability scores to raise it to 16 (the maximum starting Charisma for a race with a -2 racial penalty to it). I'm able to get 16 with severely hurting the character I planned an I'm using the Lesser Fire Genasi which means no LA Only problem is I now have 1 skill less than I wanted but do fire spells really need concenration?
Fireclave 03-13-07, 06:28 PM	If you are a spell caster of any type, you are going to want to keep your concentration at least moderately high. Having your spell fail to a readied action, turbulent weather, or screwing up when casting defensively really sucks.
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 06:43 PM	My skills of coice are Knowledge(Arcana) Knowledge(The Planes) and I'd like Craft (Alchemy) Coz Alchemist's Fire sounds fun But if I max out the Knowleges as much as I can I could half concentration and craft BTW, I know Knowledge (The Planes) is a cross-class skill but I'd like to become an Elemental Savant at 7th level
MasonMurdoc 03-13-07, 06:55 PM	He checked it out but he's one of two Co-DMs So he's gotta show it to him I doubt they'll okay it though
bobothechimp 03-13-07, 07:02 PM	You've severely, intentionally crippled yourself. Either pick a different race, one with a charisma bonus or at least no penalty, or pick a different class. Otherwise you will have a terrible character.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-13-07, 07:55 PM	I agree with Bobo. Your character will die. I see that you're interested in making a character with strong fiery flavor. Maybe you'd like some help with that. If not, then I've done all I can. Wait, I'd rather max out Concentration and Bluff. Both are very handy when adventuring. Don't feel like I'm imposing my will on your character, though. I'm not. You just asked for advice, which is open-ended.
High Octane 03-13-07, 07:58 PM	You've severely, intentionally crippled yourself. Either pick a different race, one with a charisma bonus or at least no penalty, or pick a different class. Otherwise you will have a terrible character. Exactly. Now consider wizard because it accomplishes the same type of task while using Intelligence, which you get a BONUS to instead of a PENALTY, and simply ask your DM for some flavor change for the wizard if thats all you are after. Arcane casters, even more than divine casters, are dependant on their primary casting stat, because simply put their spells are all they have. They have 2 bad saves, the worst BAB, the worst hit points, The lowest amount of skill points (and a short skill list), no armor proficiency, arcane spell failure if they DO wear it, and the worst weapon proficiencies. Their spells are EVERYTHING. Without them they are commoners with a non-combat worthy pet. And to their spells, their primary casting stat is a HUGE part of it, the other being their level which you are ALSO taking a hit on. If your DM allows you to have your racial maximum (16) in charisma, then it is a playable character, but at 13 you are, quite frankly, going to be a burden on your party. I urge you, with everything that I have got, to play a wizard, pick a different race or class, or convince your DM to increase your charisma.
Majick 03-13-07, 08:10 PM	Go the character you wanted too. Put every point into charisma (+5). Get a tome of ability increase (+5) and a cloak of charisma (+6) There you go, now your on 29 charisma. I'm sorry was this a problem?
High Octane 03-13-07, 08:23 PM	What about levels 1-12 where his spells are severely hurt? If you can get 15-16 charisma then the character is workable (since at level 4 you will be able to get that modifier up to +3 without an item, +4 with. Believe me when I say that small difference of 1-2 in your save DC is important.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 03:20 AM	So are there no feats or anything like that to make me more eicient in combat?
Yokomohoyo 03-14-07, 04:34 AM	What to say... you want to hurt your build for flavor, thats your call. What I suggest it to take all you can in stats to cha (as normal) and try to get Eagle Splendor as soon as you can. Its gonna help you alot untill you can get ahold of a +4 or better Cha item.
Black Kitten 03-14-07, 04:54 AM	So are there no feats or anything like that to make me more eicient in combat? You want to play a fiery mage becoming an elemental savant. Now I don't know the class' description, but I believe you can simply become a wizard and make the prerequests. What difference does it make to you whether you are a fire-spell-wielding maniac who reads a book in the morning and knows which spells he is going to use in advance, or a fire-spell-wielding maniac who simply drinks a cup of tea while reading the newspaper and thinks up on the fly what to do? This also is my answer: If you want to know 'feats or anything like that' that help you, there are: they're called Wizard class levels.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 05:02 AM	You know what? I figure it out myself
Black Kitten 03-14-07, 06:18 AM	You know what? I figure it out myself Sure, but this sounds like : "You don't give me the answer I want, I don't like you and now I go away." It's simply the lack of viable options in our eyes that make us advise a different class and adding your charisma. You can decide to be bullheaded about it and just go ahead, but you will find that you will have very few spells at your disposal compared to your teammates. You will be able to keep up levelling with your spell level. Cha 13 gives access to level 3 spells, at level 4 you can take cha 14, at 8 cha 15 and level 12 char 16, which gives you access to level 6 spells. After that you will need to gain access to the spell wish to increase your ability score permanently to 17 and 18 to get enough charisma for the higher level spells. The main problem is that you will only have level 1 and 2 bonus spells for a long time and all these spells will have a relatively low save DC. This means that even after investing in the feats Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, you will lag behind 2-3 DCs behind the others. So you will simply run out of spells very quickly, because you don't have those bonus spells. And your spells will be less effective. Compare: Fire Genasi Evoker level 1, Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 11. Spells/day: 3+1/2+1 (knows more different spells), DC: 13+ spell level HP: 6, AC: 12 Fire Genasi Sorcerer level 1, Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 13 Spells/day: 5/4 (but knows only 2 level 1 spells, so no utility), DC: 11+spell level HP: 5, AC: 12 You're not completely gimped, but it will be harder for you to survive, as the Evoker could even choose to invest one of his spells in Mage Armor if he thinks the situation will require it. Alternatively, you could look into the bloodline feats. That could be interesting for you as well.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-14-07, 06:21 AM	I just really hope you're not doing this "for the sake of roleplaying".
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 06:52 AM	Sure, but this sounds like : "You don't give me the answer I want, I don't like you and now I go away." That's not what I'm saying It's just that everybody is telling ow bad having 13 Charisma is I know how bad it is, I'm not dense I don't think a single person has done what I asked there just telling me what to do or whats best to do My question was how to make a Sorcorer with Cha 13 be effective not Oh no, I'm a Sorcorer with Cha 13 wha should I do Everyone is missng the point I just really hope you're not doing this "for the sake of roleplaying". Nope. I have an awesome character planned out. He's just a bit lame at early levels But seriously I want suggestions on how to make him work and keep him alive until level 4 Not tell me to be a Wizard, I realise I'd be better off, I'm not dense. Most Fire spells allow a ref save Would Spell Focus (Envoke/) be good enough to stop me being completely crap? If so do you know any Envoking Fire spells that could replace my Lesser Orb of Fire?
Gemstone 03-14-07, 06:54 AM	Okay so he isn't uncharasmatic But it's still only 13 I was just wondering if anybody knows a way to still make him effective. Thanks for the advice As I see it, you have a couple of options... Cloak of Charisma, or similiar items of like power that enhances your charisma. Inherent bonuses. These are rare at low levels, but if you specificly try to gather information and such, there's a possibility that your DM will lead you upon a quest to gain such bonuses. Spell Focus. These two feats increases the DC of your mainline spells by +1 and +2 respectivly. If you pray to your DM, he may let you apply them to all of your spells due to ridiculus low stats Use Spell Points. Sure, it means that you get less spells at hgher level, but you can fire it off by casting several weaker spells. With the 2 points lower DC than standard on this board that you'll have, you will have to work around that some how. More Saving throws = more failed saving throws. Roleplay! You can always try to find other in-game options to increase your charisma, such as a sort of "Elemental Fire of Recreation" that lets you add +2 to a stat for -4 on another etc. Talk through this with your DM. The DC of your spells aren't really that important. True, monsters will save approx. 10% more often, but on the other hand, if you can fling more offensive spells and spells without Saves, you can still press some goodness out of your spells. Why not summon a lot of fire elementals and such? Claiming that you have such control over fire that you can RULE the realm of it. A living fireball is nice to have as companion too :) And to the rest in this thread: He was asking for ideas to work with, not commentaries about "Reroll" or "change class, race etc.", since he has worked out a character concept and want to work with it. The only real cripple he'll be exposed to is the ability to not cast higher level spells. -2 to the DC of your spells hurts, buts its no killer.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 07:23 AM	As I see it, you have a couple of options... Cloak of Charisma, or similiar items of like power that enhances your charisma. Inherent bonuses. These are rare at low levels, but if you specificly try to gather information and such, there's a possibility that your DM will lead you upon a quest to gain such bonuses. Spell Focus. These two feats increases the DC of your mainline spells by +1 and +2 respectivly. If you pray to your DM, he may let you apply them to all of your spells due to ridiculus low stats Use Spell Points. Sure, it means that you get less spells at hgher level, but you can fire it off by casting several weaker spells. With the 2 points lower DC than standard on this board that you'll have, you will have to work around that some how. More Saving throws = more failed saving throws. Roleplay! You can always try to find other in-game options to increase your charisma, such as a sort of "Elemental Fire of Recreation" that lets you add +2 to a stat for -4 on another etc. Talk through this with your DM. The DC of your spells aren't really that important. True, monsters will save approx. 10% more often, but on the other hand, if you can fling more offensive spells and spells without Saves, you can still press some goodness out of your spells. Why not summon a lot of fire elementals and such? Claiming that you have such control over fire that you can RULE the realm of it. A living fireball is nice to have as companion too :) And to the rest in this thread: He was asking for ideas to work with, not commentaries about "Reroll" or "change class, race etc.", since he has worked out a character concept and want to work with it. The only real cripple he'll be exposed to is the ability to not cast higher level spells. -2 to the DC of your spells hurts, buts its no killer. Unfortunatly it'll be a while before a Cloak of Charisma, so far it's the only theng, apart from bonus ability points, that I know of What's a inherent bonus? I think it sound's familier I'll definatley be taking Spell Focus, and maybe Greater Spell Focus if I'm still having trouble. Though I doubt he'll allow me to put them on everything. Do you mean the one's in Unearther Arcana? I'll ask mt DM's what they think.. -4? I'm not sure I wan't to take a hit like that. What's this 'Element Fire of Recreation'? I was thinking of having Summon Monster spells but I wouldn't get the Elementals until 6th level anyway. Do you have any ideas as to what Fire Spell I could replace Lesser Orb of Fire, preferably no material componants.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 07:41 AM	Unfortunatly it'll be a while before a Cloak of Charisma, so far it's the only theng, apart from bonus ability points, that I know of What's a inherent bonus? I think it sound's familier I'll definatley be taking Spell Focus, and maybe Greater Spell Focus if I'm still having trouble. Though I doubt he'll allow me to put them on everything. Do you mean the one's in Unearther Arcana? I'll ask mt DM's what they think.. -4? I'm not sure I wan't to take a hit like that. What's this 'Element Fire of Recreation'? Try to make your DM agree to give you a +1 bonus only. Can be useful An Inherent bonus is a permanent bonus that you get from spells such as WISH or as a reward. It's capped at +5, but still rather useful. Can also be gained from "Tomes of..." If you take those feats, you will be at +0 with your mainline feats and -2 with your other spells. A rather fair tradeoff here Yes, I mean those in Unearthed Arcana It was merely a suggestion I came up with ;) Ask your DM for such things in his world. I for example, have a place in my world where you can reform your characters being into something new, swapping class levels, skills and ability scores and sometimes even your race for example I was thinking of having Summon Monster spells but I wouldn't get the Elementals until 6th level anyway. Do you have any ideas as to what Fire Spell I could replace Lesser Orb of Fire, preferably no material componants. hmm... The Conjuration Orb Spells from Complete Mage are perhaps the best alternative (altough broken IMO). I would suggest you go there and check them out. Else, try to make up your own spells.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 08:00 AM	hmm... The Conjuration Orb Spells from Complete Mage are perhaps the best alternative (altough broken IMO). I would suggest you go there and check them out. Else, try to make up your own spells. Do you mean the things lik Orb of Fire, Orb of Acid, Sound, Cold, and Elecricity? Coz thats what I'm trying to replace The +1 Cloak of Charisma I'l still have to wait for I remember the inherent bonus's now But I doubt he'll let me. He's quite stricked on rules I'm not to keen on changing him mid-game unless it's done by magic item or something Actually what's the difference between partial and half when it comes to saves?
Pfisiar 03-14-07, 08:23 AM	The problem is that a Sorcerer with 13 charisma doesn't make sense, especially not as an adventurer. As a failed sorcerer commoner, not a bad idea. But as PC, it's absolutely senseless. Such a character would not have survived long in the setting. This question is pretty much the same as "How do I make a Half-Orc sorcerer an effective character?" Answer: You don't. These characters have negatives to charisma for a reason. They don't make good sorcerers. I am not a power game. I don't mind if people play lower powered characters. But jesus christ on a cracker, don't screw yourself from the get go.
Darth Sephiroth 03-14-07, 08:41 AM	I noticed the need for Knowledge (The Planes), just use the Planar Sorcerer substitution levels to gain it. Also You may find the Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana) to be something for you. The retraining abilities also seem like it would be a good idea to boost Charisma.
Leo 03-14-07, 08:53 AM	Just to knw, why in hell you took a race that penalyzes your main stat in reetunr of a really uneeded stat??? Well, to see what can be saved: no save spells. get eagle's splendor as 2nd level spell. Hmm, dragon disciple?
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 08:59 AM	I noticed the need for Knowledge (The Planes), just use the Planar Sorcerer substitution levels to gain it. Also You may find the Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana) to be something for you. The retraining abilities also seem like it would be a good idea to boost Charisma. Planer Sorcorer Substitution? Battle Sorcorer does seem like it would suit him more, I'll have to check with my DM
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 09:09 AM	Just to knw, why in hell you took a race that penalyzes your main stat in reetunr of a really uneeded stat??? Well, to see what can be saved: no save spells. get eagle's splendor as 2nd level spell. Hmm, dragon disciple? For you first question, I was hoping for a 16-18. Plus this is my first spellcaster, so I didn't know about the saving throws dependant on my Charisma. It's a little hard to get spells that don't give you a chance to save when your focusing on Fire. I have a prestige class that I want anyway. Elemental Savant. Where abouts is Dragon Disciple? 1 thing abou the Battle Sorcorer, it still gets Spell Faliure from armour I'm guessing?
Gemstone 03-14-07, 09:12 AM	The problem is that a Sorcerer with 13 charisma doesn't make sense, especially not as an adventurer. As a failed sorcerer commoner, not a bad idea. But as PC, it's absolutely senseless. Such a character would not have survived long in the setting. The failed young sorceror who after having been rejected took a vow to return as one of the most powerful sorcerors ever existed? I can see plenty of reasons for such a character to exist. Sometimes, dumb luck can keep you alive for years :D
Sereno 03-14-07, 09:48 AM	So long as you aren't adventuring by yourself, you will probably be able to survive until you start to come into your own. So, your DC for saves will be low, at first, but so are the save bonuses of most low level creatures you're going to be facing. It isn't until you get to the mid/upper levels that saving throws seem to catch up with spell DCs. A wand of Eagle's Splendor is a good idea, if you don't want to waste a known spell on it, for boosting your spell casting skill when you really need to. There are also a couple of feats that can increase your spell DCs (unfortunately I can't think of which ones at the moment -- something from FR -- Spellcasting Prodigy or something like that). If you have a character concept you like, don't let anyone tell you that it's unplayable. Yeah, you'll be weaker than the best "builds" available on the CO Boards, but that doesn't mean you won't have fun or be effective.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 10:01 AM	Is it possible to use permanency on Eagle's Splendor I know it isn't listed, but as DMs would you allow iit? Secondly, is this Spellcasting Prodigy or whatever a regional feat or a general one?
Gemstone 03-14-07, 10:14 AM	Is it possible to use permanency on Eagle's Splendor I know it isn't listed, but as DMs would you allow it? No, and most sane DM's wouldn't allow it either. As it is an enchantment bonus, it doesn't stack with the regular items either... so its not such a great deal. Secondly, is this Spellcasting Prodigy or whatever a regional feat or a general one? Spellcasting Prodigy only affects Bonus Spells and its also not a regional feat. Thus anyone can take it, but only at 1st level. Page 44, Players Guide to Faerûn.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 10:17 AM	If you have a character concept you like, don't let anyone tell you that it's unplayable. Yeah, you'll be weaker than the best "builds" available on the CO Boards, but that doesn't mean you won't have fun or be effective. Amen to that. I wish some people on this board would stop looking at Power, Character effectivness in combat and such things and actually look at the character. Two of my best character's ever would probably be considered Unplayable by most people on the OP boards or by a powergamer. They were so bad at combat that they almost died all the time, but managed to pull through by some miraculus luck ;) Another tip of advice when playing this character, would be to have Thematic Fire. That is, even if your spells look like fire, they're something else. Coldfire for example, is a sort of fire that exist in my campaign world, which looks exactly like fire, but causes [Cold] damage.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 03-14-07, 10:27 AM	You may also want to discuss this with the other players. I know personally, I would be a little frustrated at another player if they intentionally crippled their character that much. I don't expect everyone to go scour the CO boards before they make every character, but I expect the other characters to be able to do whatever it is they do. After the first combat in a day when you are out of spells, both of which didn't do anything, your crossbow will be your bestfriend, though it probably won't do anything either.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 10:34 AM	I'll have to get it off my DM Thematic Fire, I know is probablt best, but I intend on aking the Elemental Savant prestige class which will make all my Energy Spells fire I don't think my Co-Players would have a problem They tend to focus on there own.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 03-14-07, 10:38 AM	Amen to that. I wish some people on this board would stop looking at Power, Character effectivness in combat and such things and actually look at the character. Two of my best character's ever would probably be considered Unplayable by most people on the OP boards or by a powergamer. They were so bad at combat that they almost died all the time, but managed to pull through by some miraculus luck ;) I don't think its necesarily powergaming, its just effective. If you and a group of "friends" made a football team for a league or something, how many games would you have to lose due to "Bob" dropping balls, before you say "hey bob, this just isn't working."? Now what if the penalty for losing the game is death. Each character needs to be able to pull some weight, otherwise what is the rest of the party's motivation for having them.
Black Kitten 03-14-07, 10:55 AM	I don't think its necesarily powergaming, its just effective. If you and a group of "friends" made a football team for a league or something, how many games would you have to lose due to "Bob" dropping balls, before you say "hey bob, this just isn't working."? Now what if the penalty for losing the game is death. Each character needs to be able to pull some weight, otherwise what is the rest of the party's motivation for having them. In football you may not touch the ball with your hands... I know very bad. (p.s. It's called 'American Football' as opposed to 'Football' (a.k.a. soccer)) It's true though. Only when you are able to get Bob to become in synergy with the team, you could work around him. For example, we tend to dump bad players at the left forward position, where they do least harm.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 11:16 AM	I don't think its necesarily powergaming, its just effective. If you and a group of "friends" made a football team for a league or something, how many games would you have to lose due to "Bob" dropping balls, before you say "hey bob, this just isn't working."? Now what if the penalty for losing the game is death. Each character needs to be able to pull some weight, otherwise what is the rest of the party's motivation for having them. If me and my friends made a football team togheter, I would suck it up, as we are friends. If I did it for money, that would be another thing, but now we do it for fun. If a player likes weak character, let him play one. If you dislike that, find another group (or drop him if all people dislike that). Besides, I've yet to see a team fail because of a single player. In most cases, it's because the rest of the party is as stupid as well ;) Each character is always able to pull weight, no matter how small it is. Even if he only inflicts 1 point of damage, that's 1 point of damage. Else, at leasts its some extra hp, even if he has minimum hp for his level and 1 con.
Callista 03-14-07, 11:27 AM	Heck yeah. Play a Wizard--you'll have a 17 INT. If you want the sorcerer's "flavor", feel free to be creative--have your spellbook be something other than an actual book. Maybe your character records spells by creating a design on a piece of parchment, and meditating on the design. That's the same mechanics as the Wizard, but the flavor says Sorcerer.
Sereno 03-14-07, 11:30 AM	Spellcasting Prodigy only affects Bonus Spells and its also not a regional feat. Thus anyone can take it, but only at 1st level. Page 44, Players Guide to Faerûn. OK. What's the one I'm trying to remember ... the one that lets you treat your primary spellcasting ability as if it were higher (2 points, I think) for purposes of calculating DC?
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 11:31 AM	Just go with spells such as "Lesser Fire Orb", "Fire Orb", "Scorching Ray", and spells such as that. When possible, get Energy Substitution (though I think you need that for the Savant anyway) and then you can start using Substituted Polar Ray when you get there. A 13 Charisma hurts, yes, but not to the point of inneffciency. As one poster already showed, you can get to 29 from where you are...that's kinda high...LoL. You have a character planned out that isn't built solely around stats and numbers...meaning you have an actual Character and not just a bunch of numbers. So just take your character and run with it. You don't need to be slinging fiery destruction from level 1. Every great character starts somewhere. Good luck. I'm sure it will turn out fine...However, I do reccomend you increasing your Concentration before your craft. That will help you blast the baddies that get too close for comfort.:D
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 11:33 AM	I like Sorcorers better RAW POWER BABY!!!! *ahem* I might be a Battle Sorcorer so I can be effective at something at least But do they still get Spell Falure from Armour?
Gemstone 03-14-07, 11:39 AM	I like Sorcorers better RAW POWER BABY!!!! *ahem* I might be a Battle Sorcorer so I can be effective at something at least But do they still get Spell Failure from Armour? I find nothing in the text from UA that suggests that a Battle Sorceror don't suffer from it, so I say that they suffer from Spell Failure
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 11:40 AM	OK. What's the one I'm trying to remember ... the one that lets you treat your primary spellcasting ability as if it were higher (2 points, I think) for purposes of calculating DC? Spell Focus? "Lesser Fire Orb", "Fire Orb" These to have a Fort save So I'll still be lacking Whats the diff between Partial an half As for Concentration? I am I decided not to use the rebuilding theing from Unearthed Arcana So I still have 4 sets of skills to max out But I'm tempted to put ranks in intimidate if I'm gonna be a Batle Sorcorer Craft(Alchemy) or Intimidate?
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 11:43 AM	The battle Sorcerer can cast spells in light armor without penalty. The orbs have saves, yes, but they do full damage no matter what (I believe so anyway) I thought the save was just for the after effects. That is usually how ranged touch attacks go. As for your skill choice, that's up to the type of character you want. However, since you have a bonus to your Intelligence, that sounds like a smart character rather than a fearsome character, so I would go craft.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 11:43 AM	I find nothing in the text from UA that suggests that a Battle Sorceror don't suffer from it, so I say that they suffer from Spell Failure Seems kinda pointless to to me, They get proficiency and light armour after all I'll prrobably stick with the normal Sorcorer then The battle Sorcerer can cast spells in light armor without penalty. The orbs have saves, yes, but they do full damage no matter what (I believe so anyway) I thought the save was just for the after effects. That is usually how ranged touch attacks go. As for your skill choice, that's up to the type of character you want. However, since you have a bonus to your Intelligence, that sounds like a smart character rather than a fearsome character, so I would go craft. They're also short tempered though
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 11:49 AM	If that is the type of character you wish to play, by all means go for it. Your concept seems solid, and with the right spell selection, your low spellcasting score will not hurt you as much as everyone leads you on to believe. However, do note that the Battle Sorcerer CAN cast spells in light armor with NO arcane spell failure chance :D . Good stuff!
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 11:53 AM	If that is the type of character you wish to play, by all means go for it. Your concept seems solid, and with the right spell selection, your low spellcasting score will not hurt you as much as everyone leads you on to believe. However, do note that the Battle Sorcerer CAN cast spells in light armor with NO arcane spell failure chance :D . Good stuff! I do....but I also want to blow things up with Alchemists Fire Where does it say there uneffect by spellfalure I can't find it in Unearth Arcana and I'll need to show my DM Is losing 1 spell from each level worth the new HD, BAB, and proficiences I know it probably is, balance wise But would it be bad for a spell caster?
Sereno 03-14-07, 11:54 AM	Spell Focus? No, that's not the one I'm thinking of (though you probably should have it, too). I'm pretty sure it's from FR, maybe from Magic of Faerun??? For purposes of calculations, like DCs, you get to treat your spellcasting stat as if it's higher (I think by 2)....
Gemstone 03-14-07, 11:54 AM	Seems kinda pointless to to me, They get proficiency and light armour after all I'll prrobably stick with the normal Sorcorer then My bad, I missed the first statment :( They cast in light armor without chance of failure.
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 12:05 PM	Spellcasting A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. Quoted directly from the first line of the Battle Sorcerer. Why do you want to blow up things with alchemist fire when you have spells? Not to mention, alchemist fire doesn't blow up. Think of it as D&D Napalm
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 12:16 PM	Quoted directly from the first line of the Battle Sorcerer. Why do you want to blow up things with alchemist fire when you have spells? Not to mention, alchemist fire doesn't blow up. Think of it as D&D Napalm What am I gonna do if I run out? D&D Napalm? *Drool* I guess I could focus on a sword
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 12:20 PM	You're a caster. You are not supposed to run out LoL. And if your DM is like most and follows the guidelines of the DMG (which I find retarded to say the least) you will only fight 3-4 encounters a day before resting. Should be alright until you can get the necessary funds and feats to start supplying scrolls and wands
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 12:31 PM	You're a caster. You are not supposed to run out LoL. And if your DM is like most and follows the guidelines of the DMG (which I find retarded to say the least) you will only fight 3-4 encounters a day before resting. Should be alright until you can get the necessary funds and feats to start supplying scrolls and wands I know I'm not supposed to. But at the end of the day when the spellcasters are close to useless The horrid little Chaotic Neutral Rogue steals your stuff What better than a large keg of Alchemists Fire to sort the problem out :) I might just be a regular Sorcorer One of the things I was happy about was that he's my first class that has to seriously avoid damage......and the only spellcaster my group has ever seen with Str above 12, but thats besides the point. Plus I can't afford my new proficiences. I spent all my GP on a hedgehog familier I'll also only have 1 first level spell
High Octane 03-14-07, 01:42 PM	Yeah, you'll be weaker than the best "builds" available on the CO Boards Using all of my knowledge, skills, free time, and ingenuity I could never come close to creating a character that the CO boards couldnt kill with an equivelant level character with a lower point buy and a botched initiative in a single round without fail. This is comparing the character to a NORMAL character. I have never seen a person even under a low power setting play an arcane caster with a primary casting stat starting under 16 unless they planned to multiclass them with a non-arcane caster. Tell me, what are you planning for this character besides him being a pyromaniac? I am curious to hear about the actual character.
Sereno 03-14-07, 01:52 PM	This is comparing the character to a NORMAL character. I have never seen a person even under a low power setting play an arcane caster with a primary casting stat starting under 16 unless they planned to multiclass them with a non-arcane caster. I have ... it's usually fine. You just devote all of your gained points to the spell-casting stat and seek out the stat-boosting items when your wealth/level allows for it. By the time you get to the levels where you need the higher stat to even cast the spells, you'll have it. Sure you'll get outshined by the guy who started with an 18 (20 since he's probably an elf, too) and has all of the same level bumps and gear that you have, but total power level isn't everything.... As a DM, it seems to me that most of my creatures rarely make saves against a caster with "typically" high stats. It seems you can really pump up your DCs faster than gaining save bonuses. Also, with a little research, you can usually determine where the opponents worst save is, and exploit that.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 02:22 PM	Using all of my knowledge, skills, free time, and ingenuity I could never come close to creating a character that the CO boards couldnt kill with an equivelant level character with a lower point buy and a botched initiative in a single round without fail. This is comparing the character to a NORMAL character. I have never seen a person even under a low power setting play an arcane caster with a primary casting stat starting under 16 unless they planned to multiclass them with a non-arcane caster. Tell me, what are you planning for this character besides him being a pyromaniac? I am curious to hear about the actual character. I was going to take all 10 levels of Element Savant So I can truely master Fire He's hot tempered He's not a Piromaniac, I am. He just rather master his element
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 02:41 PM	Well, the Battle Sorcorer is a no go
Magetastic 03-14-07, 02:41 PM	If i were you i would discuss with the DM changing your racial bonuses to -2 wisdom +2 charisma having him be naturally short tempered and brash (a symptom of low wisdom) but having a strong and firery personality.
Merestil Haye 03-14-07, 02:47 PM	Sereno : The feat you are looking for was called Spellcasting Prodiy. But then came 3.5, and that was stripped from the feat. This was due to WotC realising that people used their spells to attack their enemies weaker saves. MasonMurdoc : Have you considered the Warmage? Warmages are found in Complete Arcane. They get bigger hit dice than the Sorcerer, more skill points per level, ability to cast in light armour (going up to medium later), and a huge list of spells known. Unfortunately spellcasting still relies on Charisma so a lot of what's said about the Sorcerer still applies. However they also get bonus damage on their spells from Intelligence. The necessity for pumping up Cha has been covered. My suggestion is this. Go for metamagic feats. They don't raise the actual level of the spell so you can cast an Empowered Fireball using a 5th level slot even with a 13 Cha. The saving throw still sucks though (it's 14). If you stick with Sorcerer, you'll need to find ways of being more flexible. That means increasing the number of spells you know. Extra Spell will help you in this regard, as will the Spell Compendium. There's a nice little 3rd level spell in there that is targeted (no attack rolls) deals sonic damage and forces a Fort save (ie not Reflex). Use it on rogues, who will have bad Fort saves. Buy a copy of Dragon 333 and wave the article on Sorcerer Class Acts under his nose. The item presented will let you learn an extra spell - learn as in "add to your list of spells known". And they're not slotted items - own as many as you can get hold of. You want hot stuff? Beg or borrow a Sandstorm and aim for the prestige class that adds 42 spells to your list of spells known - some, like Bull's Strength, at a level lower than normal (it's 1st level). After all, you're a Fire Genasi - might as well get some use out of your knowledge of hot places eh? ;) Warmage / Sandshaper... now I want to make that character.
JulesCARV 03-14-07, 03:01 PM	If you could alter the prerequisites a bit, perhaps you could go for a psion (kineticist)/elemental savant. Psions are kinda like sorcerers (and "fireball"-style spellcasting is where they're the most sorcerer-like), but use their intelligence.
High Octane 03-14-07, 03:05 PM	Warmage sounds like a good idea. Its less dependant on one stat and gets the same feel as an evoker sorcerer. You might be able to take elemental savant as well with warmage levels.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 03:10 PM	I know it sounds like I'm being stupid but I don't want to know non Firey spells at all At least not until I have 1st level of Elemental Savant
Magetastic 03-14-07, 03:23 PM	I know it sounds like I'm being stupid but I don't want to know non Firey spells at all At least not until I have 1st level of Elemental Savant :twitch:
High Octane 03-14-07, 03:37 PM	:twitch: Second.
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 03:38 PM	Why are people still suggesting new classes and races and everything? The dude has his race and class decided, and it is his character. Deal with it. It may not be "optimized" but it is what he wants. It will work out fine. Just because he doesn't have a 16 or higher in Charisma is not going to kill him. Let him Roleplay how he wants. Let him build how he wants. Let him play how he wants. He is just asking advice on HIS character. As for learning only fire spells, that's cool. The only problem is options. If you can find that many fire spells, awesome. However, not to go against your idea, but you could just take existing spells and tweak them a bit so they are fire. Even non-offensive such as Bull's Strength. Change the name to Fiery Rage, give the text a little fiery flavor and BOOM, a "fire" based buff spell. Eagle's splendor is something for you to desire, so change the name to something such as "Fiery Personality" and BOOM, +4 Charimsa from a spell that has some fiery flavor.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 03:57 PM	Why are people still suggesting new classes and races and everything? The dude has his race and class decided, and it is his character. Deal with it. It may not be "optimized" but it is what he wants. It will work out fine. Just because he doesn't have a 16 or higher in Charisma is not going to kill him. Let him Roleplay how he wants. Let him build how he wants. Let him play how he wants. He is just asking advice on HIS character. As for learning only fire spells, that's cool. The only problem is options. If you can find that many fire spells, awesome. However, not to go against your idea, but you could just take existing spells and tweak them a bit so they are fire. Even non-offensive such as Bull's Strength. Change the name to Fiery Rage, give the text a little fiery flavor and BOOM, a "fire" based buff spell. Eagle's splendor is something for you to desire, so change the name to something such as "Fiery Personality" and BOOM, +4 Charimsa from a spell that has some fiery flavor. Don't worry I will be taking a few non-offense spells Such as Fly I have an awesome image of me Soloing a Red Dragon I doubt it'll happen But it's breath weapon wont be any good :D And at 7th Level when I become an Element Savant all energy spells become Fire, so I can have Firebolts or something
High Octane 03-14-07, 04:03 PM	But it's breath weapon wont be any good :D Neither will your spells if its a red dragon :uh-huh: Edit: Oh yeah, apparantly elemental Savants get the ability to bypass resistance and immunity.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 04:09 PM	Neither will your spells if its a red dragon :uh-huh: Edit: Oh yeah, apparantly elemental Savants get the ability to bypass resistance and immunity. Really? Whens that? I actually think it was a mistake on my part
High Octane 03-14-07, 04:12 PM	Really? Whens that? I actually think it was a mistake on my part I remember hearing something like that, may have been a different prestige class.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 04:17 PM	I remember hearing something like that, may have been a different prestige class. Bonded Summoner? I'll definatly take Summon Elemental Monolith when I can
Sereno 03-14-07, 04:17 PM	However, not to go against your idea, but you could just take existing spells and tweak them a bit so they are fire. Even non-offensive such as Bull's Strength. Change the name to Fiery Rage, give the text a little fiery flavor and BOOM, a "fire" based buff spell. Eagle's splendor is something for you to desire, so change the name to something such as "Fiery Personality" and BOOM, +4 Charimsa from a spell that has some fiery flavor. There's already a feat for this, called Spellcasting Thematics ... I always thought it was a complete waste of a feat because wizards should already have the ability to "theme" the non-mechanical parts of their spells however they want. Essentially, any spellcaster who wants it, IMC, gets it for free. It's MAGIC ... every Magic Missile doesn't need to like like a little whitish blob like in Baldurs Gate; you could have arrow shapes or bird shapes or dragon shapes -- who cares, so long as it still does 1d4+1 damage!
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 04:20 PM	There's already a feat for this, called Spellcasting Thematics ... I always thought it was a complete waste of a feat because wizards should already have the ability to "theme" the non-mechanical parts of their spells however they want. Essentially, any spellcaster who wants it, IMC, gets it for free. It's MAGIC ... every Magic Missile doesn't need to like like a little whitish blob like in Baldurs Gate; you could have arrow shapes or bird shapes or dragon shapes -- who cares, so long as it still does 1d4+1 damage! They made a feat for that? Just to clarify, thematic does mean discription right?
High Octane 03-14-07, 04:24 PM	There's already a feat for this, called Spellcasting Thematics ... I always thought it was a complete waste of a feat because wizards should already have the ability to "theme" the non-mechanical parts of their spells however they want. Essentially, any spellcaster who wants it, IMC, gets it for free. It's MAGIC ... every Magic Missile doesn't need to like like a little whitish blob like in Baldurs Gate; you could have arrow shapes or bird shapes or dragon shapes -- who cares, so long as it still does 1d4+1 damage! I think that its meant for people who get a bonus to spells with a certain descriptor. Such as a Fire Gensai might cast fire spells at +1 level.
Sereno 03-14-07, 04:24 PM	They made a feat for that? Just to clarify, thematic does mean discription right? Yes ... there was no other mechanical difference; just the "look." The example they use in the book is "screaming skulls" :rolleyes: Yeah, the feat allowed you to describe all of your spells with a particular theme like "black spiders" or "scintillating light" or "dark smoke" ... that was it!
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 04:37 PM	If i were you i would discuss with the DM changing your racial bonuses to -2 wisdom +2 charisma having him be naturally short tempered and brash (a symptom of low wisdom) but having a strong and firery personality. I asked him this already Because that's how I think they should It's funny how someone always says a pun when describing a Fire Genasi's personality
Comus 03-14-07, 04:44 PM	Yes ... there was no other mechanical difference; just the "look." The example they use in the book is "screaming skulls" :rolleyes: Yeah, the feat allowed you to describe all of your spells with a particular theme like "black spiders" or "scintillating light" or "dark smoke" ... that was it! Well, it does make them slightly harder to identify with Spellcraft, unless I'm remembering it incorrectly. Still a waste of a feat.
Mecha_Pope 03-14-07, 05:09 PM	If your going to be a fire savant, you should probibly go with warmage. Why? At level ten, everything that touches you will take 1d6 fire damage a round. The fire cannot be "turned off" its always there. No flamible clothing, no beds (luckily you'll not have to sleep anymore), no wooden items or floors, no magic items on your person that can't handle 1d6 fire per round, and no hugs or high fives. Chain shirt wont be harmed by just 1D6 per round, but robes will go up in smoke. You'll have to wear armor just to remain decent! Oh, and guess what, forget about finding yourself a girl, unless she's fire retardent. You should just pick an element and theme that doesn't impare your ability to function in day to day life.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 05:20 PM	If your going to be a fire savant, you should probibly go with warmage. Why? At level ten, everything that touches you will take 1d6 fire damage a round. The fire cannot be "turned off" its always there. No flamible clothing, no beds (luckily you'll not have to sleep anymore), no wooden items or floors, no magic items on your person that can't handle 1d6 fire per round, and no hugs or high fives. Chain shirt wont be harmed by just 1D6 per round, but robes will go up in smoke. You'll have to wear armor just to remain decent! Oh, and guess what, forget about finding yourself a girl, unless she's fire retardent. You should just pick an element and theme that doesn't impare your ability to function in day to day life. You never actually said why being a Warmage will stop all the burning? Why would they make a class ability that burns away you clothes?
Mecha_Pope 03-14-07, 05:36 PM	It wouldn't stop the burning, but a metal has enough hardness to withstand the burning without damage. They made an ability that burns away your cloths because they weren't thinking. It sounded cool, but it kind of backfired. At tenth level of elemental savant, you gain several features of an elemental of the element you chose, including special attacks. So you gain the fire elemental's burn ability. Anything you hit with an unarmed strike or natural attack takes 1d6 fire damage, anyone who hits you with an unarmed strike or natural weapon takes 1d6 fire, and anything or anyone that makes prolonged contact with you takes 1d6 damage a round. And this ability cannot be "turned off" barring house rules, of course. This means that you'll have to carefully manage your equipment, and carry nothing that can't withstand 1d6 fire per round.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 05:59 PM	Do you mean 'Burn'? Because it doesn't say it burns through everything Only when you hit with your slam attack or they attack you with natural weapons or unarmed strike
Mecha_Pope 03-14-07, 06:10 PM	From the SRD Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution- based. Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save. Now, it doesn't outright say that your stuff will burn, but logic would. You are on FIRE!!!!! Your body is flaming, all the time. Thats why when people puch you, they get burned. Flames don't just shoot out of nowhere to burn the guy who just hit you, they're always there, all over your body. There is no way around the fact that you are covered in flames that do 1d6 damage a round. If just punching you, contact lasting only a split second, is enough to cause 1d6 damage, taking 1d6 fire per turn for constant contact is pretty generous.
MasonMurdoc 03-14-07, 06:15 PM	I'll have to talk to my DM
Mecha_Pope 03-14-07, 06:21 PM	Thats why I played an air savant when I decided to take it for a spin. That, and the whole flying thing.
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-07, 03:20 AM	Ok, I'll tell the whole story Though I did avoid it because I'll get called stupid. My rolls were 15 14 12 13 13 15 But I'm a Fire Genasi whick is +2 Int -2 Cha and now I have the awesome Idea of a Fire Genasi who specialises in irey spells and would soon take Elemental Savant as a class. So go ahead tell me how crap I am And Yes I have been told I'd make a better Wizard but they don't intrest me as much Sounds like Good roleplaying. Kudos. Well, let us see- you can cast up to 3rd level spells now, so that is fine. Put your +1 into CHA every 4 levels, then you have: 14 @4th and still no problem 15 @8th and still no problem 16 @12, Well.... 17 @ 16 18 @ 20 Problem. Ok, you are going to have to invest in items of CHA and Tomes. By level 7, an item +2 CHA should be easy. By level 20, you should have a +6 item and boosted your CHA by at least +2 with a Tome. That gives you a 26, which is fine. However, IMHO, the Genasi races are the least powerful La+ races out there, in fact I once offered them to my players at NO La, and no takers. So, I suggest to your DM that he gives the race a tiny boost or ignore the LA. I'd give Spellcasting Thematics free to any Sorc that asked for it. Just 'cause Sorc needs a tiny boost, and boy is that a tiny boost!:rimshot:
Black Kitten 03-15-07, 04:00 AM	From the SRD Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution- based. Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save. Now, it doesn't outright say that your stuff will burn, but logic would. You are on FIRE!!!!! Your body is flaming, all the time. Thats why when people puch you, they get burned. Flames don't just shoot out of nowhere to burn the guy who just hit you, they're always there, all over your body. There is no way around the fact that you are covered in flames that do 1d6 damage a round. If just punching you, contact lasting only a split second, is enough to cause 1d6 damage, taking 1d6 fire per turn for constant contact is pretty generous. 'Hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage.' I would rule that this implies a certain intend and way of action which makes the person suseptable to the fire. This has to do that you punch through (or at least try to) the 'natural armor' (skin) of the person, rather than simply making contact with this skin. This means that merely touching the guy won't make you catch flame, neither will your clothes or your equipment. A friendly pat on the shoulder might feel a bit like you are touching someone with a very bad fever, but nothing more. In addition, if you are a being of fire, you can likely also control it's intensity. I believe it would be very probable that you can also make you feel like a light smolder, at around body temperature. In other words: Feel free to were clothes, they won't burn (unless you get very angry of course)
Merryadocc 03-15-07, 04:40 AM	MasonMurdoc I want you in my roleplaying group! I reward players in my group hard core for going the roleplaying path, and would readily accept you into my games. I skipped alot of this thread as it started to get a bit lame with all the "13 CHA?!?! omg wtf n00b" kinda talk. I probably missed some people make similar comments or give the same suggestions I am about to. Ok, you asked for some advice to make yourself more effective so here is my advice. See if you are allowed a flaw and take Bloodline of Fire and Prodigy Charisma feats at level 1, and possibly the Spellgifted trait (from Unearthed Arcana) applied to evocation. It may be worth your while playing the Battle Sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana and taking the Spontaneous metamagic sorcerer class feature variant from the Players Handbook 2. This will give you good hitpoints, a better base attack, and the ability to take advantage of light armors. Later when you can't take advantage of higher level spells make sure you have Empower Spell to make the most of Spontaneous Metamagic. I would also recommend the Maximize Spell and Quicken Spell feats. Why worry about the higher level cheese factor spells when you can just make them worry about maximized empowered fireballs comming out of your 8th level spell slots. End of the day it's all about having fun and roleplaying what you want to acheive this end, and when the guy in my game gets laughed at for making a CHA 12 half-orc paladin I just make sure there is a Unique Sword laying around somewhere called Betrayer of Grumsh, an orc blood type item that makes holy hapless half-orc paladins shine. ;) And to all of those who think you can't be a winner without uber stats, go check out the Star Wars d20 RPG, Luke Skywalker didn't have an ability modifier above +2 the last time I checked.
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 09:26 AM	MasonMurdoc I want you in my roleplaying group! I reward players in my group hard core for going the roleplaying path, and would readily accept you into my games. I skipped alot of this thread as it started to get a bit lame with all the "13 CHA?!?! omg wtf n00b" kinda talk. I probably missed some people make similar comments or give the same suggestions I am about to. Ok, you asked for some advice to make yourself more effective so here is my advice. See if you are allowed a flaw and take Bloodline of Fire and Prodigy Charisma feats at level 1, and possibly the Spellgifted trait (from Unearthed Arcana) applied to evocation. It may be worth your while playing the Battle Sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana and taking the Spontaneous metamagic sorcerer class feature variant from the Players Handbook 2. This will give you good hitpoints, a better base attack, and the ability to take advantage of light armors. Later when you can't take advantage of higher level spells make sure you have Empower Spell to make the most of Spontaneous Metamagic. I would also recommend the Maximize Spell and Quicken Spell feats. Why worry about the higher level cheese factor spells when you can just make them worry about maximized empowered fireballs comming out of your 8th level spell slots. End of the day it's all about having fun and roleplaying what you want to acheive this end, and when the guy in my game gets laughed at for making a CHA 12 half-orc paladin I just make sure there is a Unique Sword laying around somewhere called Betrayer of Grumsh, an orc blood type item that makes holy hapless half-orc paladins shine. ;) And to all of those who think you can't be a winner without uber stats, go check out the Star Wars d20 RPG, Luke Skywalker didn't have an ability modifier above +2 the last time I checked. Trust me, I'm not a great roleplayer, I try, but I'm to shy. Are all the things you mentioned in Unearthed Arcana? Because the Fire Elemental Bloodline doesn't look like it will help Could you explain the Bloodline, and Charisma Prodigy a litle more please
N1ghty 03-15-07, 02:24 PM	Heya merdoc its me the rogue whos going to be stealing your gold while you sleep Tiefling rogue FTW
Mecha_Pope 03-15-07, 03:52 PM	Funny, I kind of figured that a fire elemental has the burn effect, because, well, HE'S ON FIRE! Therefore, it's safe to assume that the charicter is on fire. In addition, you take that damage just for punching him, and 1d6 fire is the equivilent of putting a torch flame directly on your flesh for 6 seconds. There is really no way that a person with the kind of body temperature to cause the equivelent of a full round of holding a direct flame to your flesh in only a half second of contact to not ignite easily flamible objects that he touches. Even if there are no flames, your flesh would still have to be hot enough to cause leathal damage to someone for just touching you for a half second. And if you can control the intensity, or turn it off (which is a totally reasonable house rule) you would still make the ability useless. BTW, You should really just use point buy, that would solve sooooo many problems in the stat area.
Stumm_Dolch 03-15-07, 04:17 PM	Good man. Wizards may be powerful but they're silly as hell and will get no chicks. I hear they like to make their own... /puke
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 04:20 PM	Funny, I kind of figured that a fire elemental has the burn effect, because, well, HE'S ON FIRE! Therefore, it's safe to assume that the charicter is on fire. In addition, you take that damage just for punching him, and 1d6 fire is the equivilent of putting a torch flame directly on your flesh for 6 seconds. There is really no way that a person with the kind of body temperature to cause the equivelent of a full round of holding a direct flame to your flesh in only a half second of contact to not ignite easily flamible objects that he touches. Even if there are no flames, your flesh would still have to be hot enough to cause leathal damage to someone for just touching you for a half second. And if you can control the intensity, or turn it off (which is a totally reasonable house rule) you would still make the ability useless. BTW, You should really just use point buy, that would solve sooooo many problems in the stat area. Can we stop with the "Burn" abiliy They want to make there own anyway The Dms have already said that we're roling 4d6 an there both really stubborn
Aiwen 03-15-07, 04:56 PM	Can we stop with the "Burn" abiliy I doubt my DM will even look at it They want to make there own The Dms have already said that we're roling 4d6 an there both really stubborn and arrogant simon isnt that arogant
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 06:15 PM	I don't want to argue I'd just like to know the best way to make do with what I have I'm kinda happy with my scores Mainly due to the praise I've been getting for not being a Wizard, though I'd clearly be better off. Did someone say Fire Genasi should be +2 Cha -2 Wis on this thread? I remember someone saying it Passionate personality, who loses his temper so doesn't think about the consiquences. Something like that anyway
Drodain 03-15-07, 06:20 PM	This is a cool idea you've got but it really can't be played out with the stats you rolled. There aren't any really good options to help you out because your stats make it so you can't do to much. You need money to fix this problem and lots of it. Good luck.
TimelordSimone 03-15-07, 06:27 PM	Hello all. I am (one of) his DMs for the campaign with said sorcerer. He's actually grown on me quite a bit. I don't know why. I thought it was ridiculous at first. But he's grown on me. I would like to point out that I'm not that arrogant. Yes, we want our own Prestige classes, but, to be fair, most of them are just existing ones, adjusted to fit our world. (Hammer of Moradin becomes Hammer of Jjolnir) Keep it up. Should be... interesting at least.
Gemstone 03-15-07, 06:30 PM	Yes, we want our own Prestige classes, but, to be fair, most of them are just existing ones, adjusted to fit our world. (Hammer of Moradin becomes Hammer of Jjolnir) IMO; this should be done by myself. I've grown to hate the 1001 different prestige classes that are much better than the base classes.
Comus 03-15-07, 06:31 PM	You need money to fix this problem and lots of it. Good luck. Bribing the DM only works about half the time. Other times, you run into one with ethics.
High Octane 03-15-07, 06:42 PM	Bribing the DM only works about half the time. Other times, you run into one with ethics. ....You really think a whole HALF of all DMs have ethics? MAN you are an optimist.
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 07:28 PM	Hello all. I am (one of) his DMs for the campaign with said sorcerer. He's actually grown on me quite a bit. I don't know why. I thought it was ridiculous at first. But he's grown on me. I would like to point out that I'm not that arrogant. Yes, we want our own Prestige classes, but, to be fair, most of them are just existing ones, adjusted to fit our world. (Hammer of Moradin becomes Hammer of Jjolnir) Keep it up. Should be... interesting at least. Who's grown on you?
TimelordSimone 03-15-07, 07:33 PM	Barry the Tramp... Your sorcerer!! I thought that was obvious...
Drodain 03-15-07, 07:35 PM	Well first off I wasn't suggesting bribery although that does work quite well. Especially when said DM is tired and broke. I meant in game. So you could buy cloaks and tomes. You can slowly build them up, IIRC tomes stack until you reach +5. The cost ends up the same but you don't have to buy them all at once.
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 07:48 PM	Well first off I wasn't suggesting bribery although that does work quite well. Especially when said DM is tired and broke. I meant in game. So you could buy cloaks and tomes. You can slowly build them up, IIRC tomes stack until you reach +5. The cost ends up the same but you don't have to buy them all at once. Sweet About what level can I afford the weakest? Is there a spell that can create a tornado?
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-07, 08:16 PM	Hello all. I am (one of) his DMs for the campaign with said sorcerer. He's actually grown on me quite a bit. I don't know why. I thought it was ridiculous at first. But he's grown on me. Keep it up. Should be... interesting at least. Thank you for posting. Please consider a small reward to this PC for the non-optimized choice of race and stats. I also suggest you do not let the PC's steal from one another.
Comus 03-15-07, 09:12 PM	Thank you for posting. Please consider a small reward to this PC for the non-optimized choice of race and stats. I also suggest you do not let the PC's steal from one another. I think a reward is out of line. Psychology of the positive feedback effect aside, I don't think you should reward the PCs for their character building decisions. If they're building characters that are mechanically strong, then they don't need a reward. If they're building characters for roleplaying over mechanics, then the roleplaying should be reward enough. Way I figure it, rewarding people for weak characters can also be seen as punishing people for strong ones. Note: Here, of course, 'reward' is defined as something that has a mechanical benefit. A reward that would, in my mind, actually be appropriate would be tossing a number of plothooks at the party that had to do with his heritage and background.
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 09:22 PM	I'm saying this to get a "reward" But I'm doing this for roleplaying I just think he's cool Not that I'd hate the reward though :D But I'll be ok without it Just give me a Teifing Rogue for target practice I'll be good :)
The_Basilisk 03-16-07, 02:28 PM	are you allowed an +LA race? for +2 LA, you could be a lesser planetouched, such as an Azerblood or a (I think it's called a Celadrin?) They're basically fiery dwarves or fiery Elves. The elf one gets a CHA bonus I think, and they both have resistance to fire and scorching ray as a SLA. Fits your theme I think.
Judging Eagle 03-16-07, 05:49 PM	Okay, I'm gonna say flat out that unlike almost every other thread I post in, I didn't read this whole thread. This op also reminded me of something that Frank wrote up for someone else who wanted a easy to use 'wizard' or 'sorcerer' that uses fire, and stands for burning things with extreme burning. In about a couple of hours. You want to be a Fire Mage, right? Bang! Okay, here's the deal: I think that magic in D&D is too powerful. Not just that magic *users* are too powerful, but magic itself. That's understandable. Magic in D&D is about as powerful as in any game. Characters in Shadowrun, or World of Darkness, or even Champions pale in comparison to what even a mid-level Magician can do in D&D. But that's because a character in D&D is supposed to be very powerful. The standard Orc Warrior is supposed to pose no meaningful threat to an 8th level character. Seriously, a character is supposed to be able to chop their way through essentially limitless armies of armed low-morale humanoids before they hit 10th level. And the game is supposed to go to 20th - where characters are supposed to be able to wade through essentially limitless armies of the guys who could wade through essentially limitless armies of normals. --- Really, if you want to play D&D and you don't want a crazy power curve, you'r essentially stuck playing at levels 1-6. After that, things are supposed to go over-he-top bat **** crazy. So I want a magical class that is less game-breaking (in terms of effects like teleport, fabricate, and wish) while still being good at fighting monsters. And one that a new player can quickly learn. That's a really tall order. The spell list in the Player's handbook is 107 pages long, and more space is devoted to spells in new supplements than any other aspect of the game. Just being a "spellcaster" essentially is an intractable problem for any new player. As I see it, you're really looking at the following list of real design criteria: Character must "feel like" a Wizard in the sense that if you saw him doing his stuff in a movie you'd describe him as a Wizard. Character must be able to take on opponents of his level drawn from Team Monster in a reasonable manner. Character must be able to be explained to a new player in a reasonable amount of time even starting at a high level. Character should have a defined battlefield role. Character should be able to exist at high level simultaneously with the 6th-level Knight centered feudalism that a lot of people think exists in D&D. Character should be forced to play with the wealth-by-level system. The last two demands I don't think are practical. However, just off the top of my head, let's make a character that can sort of do that at least for a while: Fire Mage "Yes, fire is cool." A Fire Mage is someone who burns their own soul out to burn the bodies of others. Tactically, they shine against groups of enemies, because fires spread across the battlefield like a plague. Alignment: Fire is a destructive force, and a lot of Fire Mages are Chaotic. But they don't have to be. Races: Fire Mages appear in all races, though significant portions of many races live in areas where being a Fire Mage is illegal. Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold) Starting Age: As Rogue. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The Fire Mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex). Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Medium (as Cleric), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good Level, Benefit 1 Fire Resistance, Fire Burst, Fire Bolts, Impress Flames, Fire Magic 2 Ignite 3 Piercing Flames, Hand of Fire 4 Fire Immunity, Smokeless Flame 5 Fireballs 6 Mindfire 7 Visions of Flame 8 Soul of Cinders 9 Sculpt Flames 10 Conflagration 11 Beacon, Firewalk 12 Bonds of Fire 13 Fire Clouds 14 Searing Light, Ray of Light 15 Sending, Rain of Fire All of the following are Class Features of the Fire Mage class: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fire Mages are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the whip, all martial axes, and all sizes and varieties of scimitar (including falchions). Fire Mages are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind. Fire Resistance (Ex): A Fire Mage has a Resistance to Fire equal to twice his level. Fire Burst (Sp): As a standard action, a Fire Mage can emit a burst of flame from his body, striking all creatures and objects within 10' of his position except himself. This burst of flames inflicts 1d6 of fire damage, with an allowed Reflex Save for half (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier). Fire Bolts (Sp): A Fire Mage can throw bolts of fire as an attack action. A Fire Bolt tavels out to short range, and inflicts 1d6 of Fire damage per level. A Fire Bolt strikes its target with a ranged touch attack. Impress Flames (Ex): Every time a Fire Mage inflicts Fire damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of fire, he inflicts an amount of extra Fire Damage equal to his class level or his Charisma modifier, whichever is less. Fire Magic (Ex): A Fire Mage is considered to have every spell with the Fire Descriptor on his spell list for the purpose of activating magic items. Ignite (Sp): As a standard action, a 2nd level Fire Mage can cause any creature or object to burst into flame. A creature on fire suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per round (the Mage's Impress Flames ability applies to each round of course), and the creature can attempt to put itself out with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the DMG, p. 303). This ability can be used out to Medium range, and it always hits. Piercing Flames (Ex): From 3rd level on, a Fire Mage's Fire cuts through Fire Resistance, hardness, and Immunity. No more than ½ of the damage inflicted by his fire damage can be negated by hardness or immunity or resistance to Fire. In addition, the Fire Mage ignores the first 5 points of Fire Resistance that a target has. Hand of Fire (Su): A 3rd level Fire Mage can set fire to their own body, causing them to count as armed at all times, even with unarmed attacks. The Fire Mage also causes an extra 1d6 of Fire damage with all melee attacks. Fire Immunity (Ex): A 4th level Fire Mage is immune to Fire. Smokeless Flame (Sp): A 4th level Fire Mage can create fires that produce no heat and do not burn. These fires can be anything from the size of a torch to a bonfire, and produce light accordingly. Each lasts until the next time the sun rises. Smokeless Flame can be created anywhere within Medium range. Fireballs (Sp): A 5th level Fire Mage can hurl explosive fire anywhere within Long Range as a Full Round Action. This Fire explodes into a 20' radius burst and inflicts 1d6 of Fire Damage per level. All creatures within the area are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier). Mindfire (Sp): A 6th level Fire Mage can start a Fire in a creature's mind, duplicating the effects of rage or confusion for a number of minutes equal to his Level. The victim must be within Medium Range, and is entitled to a Will Save to negate this effect (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a Mind influencing Compulsion effect. Visions of Flame (Sp): A 7th level Fire Mage can contact other plane to communicate with the denizens of the Elemental Plane of Fire. A Fire Mage is in no danger of becoming insane or damaged by this experience. Soul of Cinders (Sp): An 8th level Fire Mage has burnt his soul to ash, and is no longer susceptible to Energy Drain or Fear. Sculpt Flames (Sp): A 9th level Fire Mage can create delicate shapes and walls made of fire. The Fire is fully shapeable, but cannot pass through more than 2 squares per level. Any creature passing through a square with fire in it suffers 1d6 of fire damage per level. A creature which is in a square that is being filled with fire is entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier) to move to the nearest non-flaming square as an immediate action. These fires persist for 1 round per level. Alternately, the Fire Mage can replicate a wall of fire which persists for 1 minute per level. Conflagration (Sp): At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends for 10' in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level, but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast fireshield at will (Hot Shield only). Beacon (Sp): An 11th level Fire Mage can create a magically permanent bonfire as a standard action. He always knows exactly where each Beacon he has created is and will know if it is put out by any means. Firewalk (Sp): At 11th level a Fire Mae can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Fire Mage can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames. Bonds of Fire (Sp): A 12th level Fire Mage can craft solid fire and entrap a victim in it. The bonds will immobilize a creature which fails a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier), and will entangle the creature unless it succeeds in its save by more than 5. A creature can attempt to escape by taking a Full round action to make a Strength or Escape Artist test with a DC equal to the Use Rope Skill Result of the Fire Mage. The victim suffers 20 points of Fire Damage per round, and the bonds of fire last until the victim escapes or the Fire Mage dismisses them. Fire Clouds (Sp): As a Full Round Action, a 13th level Fire Mage can create huge billowing clouds of Fire. The Fire Clouds must be created within Long range, and persist for 3 rounds whether they are still in range or not. The cloud is shapeable, and covers at most 3 10' cubes per Level. Each round, everyone and everything inside the cloud suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per level, but is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier). Searing Light (Sp): A 14th level Fire Mage can call levels of illumination that are painful and destructive as the unmitigated baleful glare of the sun itself. All darkness within 5 miles is dispelled, and everything is illuminated. All undead suffer a 10 points of damage per round. All creatures specifically vulnerable to light suffer 10 damage per round (thus, vampires suffer 20 damage per round). All creatures are dazzled. Creatures must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier) every minute or become blind for the remainder of the effect. Creatures that are blinded when the effect ends are entitled to another Fort save to get their vision back, but if they fail this save the blinding is permanent. This effect lasts until the Fire Mage dismisses it or he is incapacitated. Ray of Light (Sp): As an attack action, a 14th level Fire Mage can fire a ray of Light at any target within Short Range. It inflicts 1d6 of Light Damage per level if it hits with a Ranged Tuuch Attack. Undead take 10 extra damage. Creatures specifically vulnerable to Light suffer an additional 10 damage. Sending (Sp): A 15th level Fire Mage can send a message, as the sending spell to any creature on any plane of existence with a standard action and receive a reply even if they are on different planes of existence. Rain of Fire (Sp): At 15th level, the Fire Mage can open the skies and dump raw inferno upon all who would oppose him. The fires inflict 1d6 of Fire Damage per level, and victims are permitted a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ level + Charisma Modifier). The Fire Mage chooses which squares are struck with fire, and the only limits to how many squares can burn is how many squares the Fire Mage can see. There are no range limits to this power save line of sight. --- That's a basic artillery piece character that should be fairly easy to explain tactically. And it has a couple of neat schticks, and a reason to exist at high level if you intend to fight the occassional army. -Frank Hope that helps. Also, play a different Fire Genasi; you know, the one where the DM switches your stat mods around to be -2 int +2 cha? Also, what other things are you gaining for this race? If they don't number the quantity and value that a Dwarf or a Forest Gnome or a Deep Halfing has, your DM should throw you a bone, or a skeleton. Because that's totally possible.
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 06:18 PM	Okay, I'm gonna say flat out that unlike almost every other thread I post in, I didn't read this whole thread. This op also reminded me of something that Frank wrote up for someone else who wanted a easy to use 'wizard' or 'sorcerer' that uses fire, and stands for burning things with extreme burning. In about a couple of hours. You want to be a Fire Mage, right? Bang! Hope that helps. Also, play a different Fire Genasi; you know, the one where the DM switches your stat mods around to be -2 int +2 cha? Also, what other things are you gaining for this race? If they don't number the quantity and value that a Dwarf or a Forest Gnome or a Deep Halfing has, your DM should throw you a bone, or a skeleton. Because that's totally possible. Thanks but I'm happy being a Sorcorer and I'm happy with my character The only thing I need are feats and things to help me deal with what i've got. I asked for the stat mo switch But I suggested -2 Wis instead of -2 Int As for things I'm gaining. Um....... It just suits my concept more than anything
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 07:16 PM	My DM just tod me he's changed the mods to +2Int -2 Wis So my Charisma is now 15 :D Should I still take Spell Focus?
High Octane 03-16-07, 09:34 PM	My DM just tod me he's changed the mods to +2Int -2 Wis So my Charisma is now 15 :D Should I still take Spell Focus? Good and Yes.
Darth Sephiroth 03-17-07, 11:09 AM	The Planar Sorcerer levels from Planar Handbook would be a very nice thing for you to have. Also try to gain tomes for use they'll really help your character. Also the Metamagic Specialist from PHB2 seems like it would definately be a perfect choice
Judging Eagle 03-17-07, 01:34 PM	I only suggested Fire Mage since it's simple and effective. With a Sorcerer you have to be a freagging genius to make sure that you're doing level-appropriate things at every level (that's why I prefer a wizard over a sorcerer; if I mess up my spells chosen, I can always change them around or add non-wizard/sorcere spells if I need them). Also, PrCing is not always as simple as it looks. I'm glad suggesting to change the stat mods around worked fine. On the other hand, you should be able to role-play an anything using the base human as your actual 'race'.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 02:41 PM	Go the character you wanted too. Put every point into charisma (+5). Get a tome of ability increase (+5) and a cloak of charisma (+6) There you go, now your on 29 charisma. I'm sorry was this a problem? Given how expensive both of the latter two items are, yes, it's a huge problem. People need to stop suggesting "Get X magic item" as a solution to weak character builds, as though players have total control over what their characters find buried in convenient treasure vaults just outside of town.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 02:49 PM	Yes ... there was no other mechanical difference; just the "look." The example they use in the book is "screaming skulls" :rolleyes: Yeah, the feat allowed you to describe all of your spells with a particular theme like "black spiders" or "scintillating light" or "dark smoke" ... that was it! No, the actual mechanic of the feat is that your "thematics" are confusing enough that people who look at you take a penalty on Spellcraft checks to identify your spells and counter them. It's still a crap feat -- how often does *anyone* counterspell anything? -- but it does, in fact, have a mechanical effect.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 03:00 PM	It wouldn't stop the burning, but a metal has enough hardness to withstand the burning without damage. Hardness doesn't affect energy damage. They made an ability that burns away your cloths because they weren't thinking. It sounded cool, but it kind of backfired. At tenth level of elemental savant, you gain several features of an elemental of the element you chose, including special attacks. So you gain the fire elemental's burn ability. Anything you hit with an unarmed strike or natural attack takes 1d6 fire damage, anyone who hits you with an unarmed strike or natural weapon takes 1d6 fire, and anything or anyone that makes prolonged contact with you takes 1d6 damage a round. And this ability cannot be "turned off" barring house rules, of course. This means that you'll have to carefully manage your equipment, and carry nothing that can't withstand 1d6 fire per round. Dude, what the hell are you on about? A Fire Elemental's Burn ability does no such thing. It just says you get a chance to be set on fire if the elemental hits you with a slam attack, or if you hit it with an unarmed or natural attack. Saying the Elemental's constantly dealing damage to everything it touches or stands on is you reading things into the rules. Here, look: Burn (Ex) A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental’s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see table). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save. If fire elementals did damage to everything they *touched*, they'd be almost impossible to use as summons. FWIW, *nothing* withstands 1d6 damage per round. This would make all equipment eventually be destroyed, because all equipment has a finite number of hit points. Luckily, this isn't how it works.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 03:03 PM	From the SRD Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution- based. Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save. Now, it doesn't outright say that your stuff will burn, but logic would. You are on FIRE!!!!! Your body is flaming, all the time. Thats why when people puch you, they get burned. Flames don't just shoot out of nowhere to burn the guy who just hit you, they're always there, all over your body. There is no way around the fact that you are covered in flames that do 1d6 damage a round. If just punching you, contact lasting only a split second, is enough to cause 1d6 damage, taking 1d6 fire per turn for constant contact is pretty generous. Punching is also contact with a great deal of force, as is being punched. If "contact lasting a split second" were all it took to do fire damage to something, then the Fire Elemental could use touch attacks instead of regular attacks, and it would be much more powerful. It doesn't tell you what the flavor is for this effect, just the mechanical effect. Just say that fire elementals have a thin crust or layer of cool gas over their flaming bodies so that you have to actively punch through it in order to take damage. It makes sense to me. (Look, when you have a thing that's somehow "made out of fire" and yet has weight and mass and a shape and walks around and is sentient and speaks language, logic has taken a vacation, okay?)
ArcTan 03-17-07, 03:09 PM	Funny, I kind of figured that a fire elemental has the burn effect, because, well, HE'S ON FIRE! Therefore, it's safe to assume that the charicter is on fire. In addition, you take that damage just for punching him, and 1d6 fire is the equivilent of putting a torch flame directly on your flesh for 6 seconds. There is really no way that a person with the kind of body temperature to cause the equivelent of a full round of holding a direct flame to your flesh in only a half second of contact to not ignite easily flamible objects that he touches. Even if there are no flames, your flesh would still have to be hot enough to cause leathal damage to someone for just touching you for a half second. And if you can control the intensity, or turn it off (which is a totally reasonable house rule) you would still make the ability useless. Can we stop with this "logic" nonsense? The rules only say what the rules do. They don't explain the "logic" behind it. You shouldn't assume the rules have "logical" effects they don't say they have by assuming a particular flavor for the rules, especially when this "logic" consists of trying to apply real-world physics to inherently unrealistic creatures like Elementals. A Fire Elemental isn't made of real fire. It's made of "elemental fire", which is a magical thing that obviously doesn't work like real fire, since the Fire Elemental, unlike real fire, burns without fuel. And is intelligent and uses language. If the fire the Fire Elemental is made of can be sentient, then why can't it be "smart" fire that only burns things the Elemental is trying to harm or that are trying to harm the elemental? Or if the elemental is like a living thing in many ways -- and a human who's gained elemental-like qualities will be even more like a living thing -- who's to say it doesn't have some kind of "skin" that needs to be pushed through to release the fire? It ultimately doesn't matter. What does matter is that the rules have created a set of constraints for what Fire Elementals can and can't do, and to go beyond them is to *unbalance the game*, and unbalancing game mechanics because you refuse to change flavor -- when changing flavor is a million times easier than rebalancing mehanics -- is dumb.
Merestil Haye 03-17-07, 04:39 PM	Hardness doesn't affect energy damage.I beg to differ. Hardness applies to all energy damage. (See Energy Attacks under Smashing an Object). Not only that, fire damage against an object is halved before deducting hardness. You're quite right in stating that the elemental doesn't burn everything; but he was right about hardness. I'd also take issue with your stating that an enhancement bonus item is expensive. On an absolute scale yes there are a lot of items less expensive, but 36k is under 5% of the wealth guideline of a 20th level character. At that stage no it's not expensive. Personally I'd expect the character to prioritise this and realistically aim for a +6 item by 13th level.
MasonMurdoc 03-17-07, 09:42 PM	I'm guessing inherent bonus's dont stack I'll get a cloak of charisma +6 and tome of charisma +5 as soon as I can Is it possible to use more than 1 meamagic feat on a single spell?
Darth Sephiroth 03-18-07, 12:01 PM	I'm guessing inherent bonus's dont stack I'll get a cloak of charisma +6 and tome of charisma +5 as soon as I can Is it possible to use more than 1 meamagic feat on a single spell? Yes it is, but the spell level changes stack
MasonMurdoc 03-18-07, 12:52 PM	Yes it is, but the spell level changes stack Awesome, that means I can have my Exloding Widened Fireball
Darth Sephiroth 03-19-07, 02:43 PM	Awesome, that means I can have my Exloding Widened Fireball You really ought to compare it to other spells of the resulting level (You add the level changes from all Metamagic applied to the spell to determine the spell level it counts as). And if you don't have the Metamagic Specialist ability you end up in big trouble, but if you don't mind losing your familiar take the variant as a Sorcerer which allows you to use any metamagic without the normal sorcerer problems with metamagic. If you want/need a Familiar at a later level, pick up the feat from Complete Arcane that gives you one.
Puggins 03-21-07, 01:47 PM	Well, since you now have a charisma of 15, you lo longer have the original problem. But just for the record, a 13 charisma sorcerer would work just fine. Sure, a 16cha would help you plenty, but in the end its more of a bump than a necessity. Even with a 13, you won't have a really, honest-to-goodness issue until 14th level, when you'd need a 17cha to cast 7th level spells and would only have 16 using only level-ups. Honestly, though, this is a non-problem. If a 14th level sorcerer didn't have access to a cloak of charisma +2 (a 4,000 gp item) then that campaign is such an aberration that it couldn't be considered mainstream. Never mind that you could just take Craft Wondrous Item to make it yourself. As for bonus spells... meh. Another minor issue blown out of proportion. If you had a 16 cha instead of 13 then at 6th level you'd be able to cast an extra 3rd level spell- the 16 (now 17) cha sorcerer would be able to cast 7/6/4 spells of the first three levels, while the 13cha (now 14) sorc would cast 7/6/3. I'd hardly call that crippling. I would say that your biggest problem comes from the difference in spell DC. Though the difference IS a bit small, it is there between 16 and 13, and will alternate between a +1 and +2 DC difference as you progress in levels. You can offset this by not relying on spells that require a save. Heck, get extend spell and make sure ot have eagle's splendor on you and you'll be fine. From just the SRD: 1st level: ray of enfeeblement, enlarge person, summon monster, magic missile 2nd level: scorching ray, summon monster, alter self So is playing a sorc with 13cha challenging? A little, yes. Is it crippling? Not by a long shot.
MasonMurdoc 03-21-07, 04:38 PM	Yeah, I'm all sorted now. I'll get Eagle's Splendor in a wand. I'm sticking with Fire and things that help me get somewhere(ie. Fly, Teleport) I'll check with my DM about the Metamagic Sorcorer But I kinda like my Hedgehog and don't want to waste a feat to get him.