| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| MoltenDm02-02-08, 06:26 PM | I have a buffed up cleric dealing with a Demon thats prolly Cr 8 My Cleric is Cr 5 and so is most of my team (we are at slaughtergarde dealing with the demon that uses a Trident btw) We dont have 4th level spells yet and this demon or devil..uses a Cloudkill on itself to kill any meleers or others (teleport) being level 5 this is a problem for me (im the only one in melee sience the warblade couldnt make it this session) I had a plan to counterspell his dispell magic and then use my buffs and use neutralize poison to become immune to it. But that went out the drain when we found out that you cant counter spell like abilitys.......So help please we dont want to die we just want to finish this stupidly overpowered adventure :weep: (the demon has Spell R., Damage R., and a couple of other nasty things) What would you use against him? Im a LG cleric of Heironeous so running isnt much of a choice if i want to keep my powers.. You guys that have played this Adv will know what im talking about..:( |
| Sinfire Titan02-02-08, 06:50 PM | To me, this sounds like a Mezoloth, from MM3. The typical tactic is to use Flight, but getting Dispelled will hurt you (not from falling, Obv). Let me take a look at it's stats block, and I will help you with a strategy. I'm pretty good at outsmarting an encounter, considering I made a 3rd level party capable of taking on an Iron Golem and getting XP from it. Ok, perhaps the first thing you hit this bastard with is some form of way of dealing with Extraplanar creatures. It can't use Greater Teleport to Plane Shift, so it is SOL from one casting of Dismissal/Banishment if it fails the save. That is the easiest way of getting rid of it. It can only use Cloudkill and Dispel Magic twice each day, if it wastes either use early on and they are thwarted, then it is stuck with Darkness, Desecrate, Produce Flame, and a decent melee. The problem is that it has a high Init modifier and a solid base land speed. But this is where it's fatal weakness comes in. It only has 2 uses of Greater Teleport, and you can force one with Grease, a 1st level spell for Sor/Wiz. One hit from that, it is forced to either Dispel your buffs and Teleport out of the Grease spell, or hit the Grease with a Dispel, and hope it makes the CL check. By an Orange Ioun Stone, and use the spell Create Magic Tattoo from the Spell Compendium to tilt the odds in your favor. How odd that Wizards likes putting no ranks in Balance for a lot of monsters that don't have a Fly speed. A second casting of Grease will get it to waste another use, or resort to Cloudkill. When that happens, have the party Wiz/Archer/Yourself hit it with either Orb of Sound or Force. This will screw the SLA and waste the first Cloudkill. Orbs don't allow SR, and it's Touch AC is crappy. One down, and one to go. This can also be used if it tries Dispelling/Teleporting out of the second Grease, and is highly recommended. Getting into melee with it can be tricky. A Trident has a 10' reach, so charging without Tumble ranks is out of the question, and it doesn't have to take a 5' step to attack you back. The solution is either Orb spells, or a Spiked Chain/Reach weapon w/Armor Spikes. This gives you the advantage, as the party Tank can just sit right out of it's claws and bites reach and whack it senseless. After you've made him waste all of his Cloudkills/Dispels/Teleports, this is where it will get desperate, and it will be a gambit for who can win Init. After those options are used up, it will most likely summon another Mezzoloth. This will be very dangerous, as it forces you to repeat everything you just did to the other one. Worse, it is an Ex ability, and not an SLA, so you can't stop it from doing this aside from praying that it botches the percentile roll. Even worse is that the summoned 'Loth is fully prepared for battle, and telepathic, so they can be ready for you the moment it hits the field. If you have a Druid in your party, make sure they haven't done anything in combat today, and let them go to town on the summoned one while you guys deal with the summoner. Now comes the fun part. One casting of Glitterdust, and this fight is over. They have crap in their Will saves, so odds are heavily in your favor of it failing the save. What more, no SR. It will have wasted every Dispel attempt by now, if not, don't use the Glitterdust yet. Metamagic the hell out of the spell, use repeat for the best odds of blinding it. After that, it is Flat-Footed and has a 50% chance of missing anyone it strikes. Easy pickings, just have the party Tank and Rogue flank it with you while you have a Divine Power cast, then pummel it until it dies/flees via Teleport. What more, Power Words will affect him with no save. Power Word Pain is a good way to start, and so is Malidrot (SP?). It has a low base Dex, and even lower Int. Hit those scores with everything you can afford, via Ray of Stupidity or a Ray of Clumsiness. As for pre-combat, the 'Loth has a high Spot, MS, Hide, and Listen, so trying to get the drop on him will be hard, if not outright stupid. The best means of surprising it is to have someone take a long approach to it's flank, and having them get a good boost to MS. Several Alchemical items will do this well, and so will a Floating Disk (Spell Compendium). Get the party Rogue behind him, and he will have no idea what hit him after the Grease goes off. Disarm, Trips, and Grapples will all be good options to deal with it's reach. Enlarge the party Fighter/Monk, or just use Righteous Might/Divine Power combo to make it's life miserable. Get Armor Spikes put on, and give him a mouth-full of dirt on your way over to a ledge or tree. Pin him down, and wail on him for the duration of Righteous Might. Good Luck otherwise. |
| Alleine02-03-08, 12:56 AM | But that went out the drain when we found out that you cant counter spell like abilitys A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic Spell-like abilities CAN be dispelled. Unless you meant to say supernatural, in which case they can't be. |
| Kobajagrande02-03-08, 03:45 PM | I'm pretty good at outsmarting an encounter, considering I made a 3rd level party capable of taking on an Iron Golem and getting XP from it. Why don't you tell us more about it. While there, may the guy with 300 pages character sheet finally step up and show us what he has on it. |
| Sinfire Titan02-03-08, 05:24 PM | Why don't you tell us more about it. While there, may the guy with 300 pages character sheet finally step up and show us what he has on it. Well, aside from the above:http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14637761&postcount=16 My strategy for 3rd level parties to take on an Iron Golem. Works every time, until the DM gives it wings. In which case, you run like hell! |
| Count Arioch the 28th02-03-08, 05:37 PM | Spell-like abilities CAN be dispelled. Unless you meant to say supernatural, in which case they can't be. He didn't say dispel. He said counterspelled. And spell like abilities most assuredly can NOT be counterspelled. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell Link - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm |
| Sinfire Titan02-03-08, 06:40 PM | He didn't say dispel. He said counterspelled. And spell like abilities most assuredly can NOT be counterspelled. Link - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm Unless you hit it in the face with a readied action... |
| Count Arioch the 28th02-03-08, 06:43 PM | Unless you hit it in the face with a readied action... That's not a counterspell. |
| Mindolin02-03-08, 07:01 PM | Readied actions are the Fighting Man's counterspell. |
| Sinis02-03-08, 07:33 PM | Readied actions are the Fighting Man's counterspell. Except when they 5-foot step out of reach. |
| calronmoonflower02-03-08, 08:43 PM | Except when they 5-foot step out of reach. You can take a 5-foot step along with a readied action. |
| Count Arioch the 28th02-03-08, 08:50 PM | This assumes the spellcaster allows the fighter into melee range. At mid to high levels, that's not likely to happen. |
| Sinis02-03-08, 09:39 PM | You can take a 5-foot step along with a readied action. Fair point. I guess the best they can do is withdraw. |
| calronmoonflower02-04-08, 12:02 AM | Fair point. I guess the best they can do is withdraw. Huh... They better be more prepared than that. Most will do their best to prevent going one-on-one against a melee character, but at some point it will happen. Benign Teleport will get you out and put a door stop their as well. Other ways exist that could prevent you from being hit or move you. Some of which are swift actions. |
| MoltenDm02-04-08, 12:25 AM | 0k you really seem to know what you're talking about i appriciate your help. Im sorry it took me this long to answer but i was kinda busy. Anyways, I should give you more info on what we have or more exactly what we dont have... We..dont have time sience we already wasted to much of it resting from thugh encounters, we dont have money either (our..dm) we cant buy scrolls, magic items or the like, we have spells from our classes and thats pretty much it, here is my team. Cleric lvl 5, Wizard lvl 6 and a Druid lvl 6 as well. Druid and cleric spells well are available, we have ray of stupidity but dont have a way of knowing how stupid the creature is (failed the know. check) And finely our Dm doesnt use the demon nearly as stupid as he should prolly and uses our planning against us. So.. ohh forgot to mention, my cleric has access to sanctified magic (from Boed) and Aspect of the divine can take care of his summon |
| Sinfire Titan02-04-08, 12:45 AM | 0k you really seem to know what you're talking about i appriciate your help. Im sorry it took me this long to answer but i was kinda busy. Anyways, I should give you more info on what we have or more exactly what we dont have... We..dont have time sience we already wasted to much of it resting from thugh encounters, we dont have money either (our..dm) we cant buy scrolls, magic items or the like, we have spells from our classes and thats pretty much it, here is my team. Cleric lvl 5, Wizard lvl 6 and a Druid lvl 6 as well. Druid and cleric spells well are available, we have ray of stupidity but dont have a way of knowing how stupid the creature is (failed the know. check) And finely our Dm doesnt use the demon nearly as stupid as he should prolly and uses our planning against us. So.. ohh forgot to mention, my cleric has access to sanctified magic (from Boed) and Aspect of the divine can take care of his summon In that case, go all-out in the first round or three. Have the Wizard prepare nothing but Lesser Orb of Sound, and just pelt his ass with them whenever he tries to use an SLA. Force an impossible Concentration check to avoid the Cloudkill at all costs, and have the Druid call a Fleshraker (MM3) as an animal companion the day before the fight. Grease is still the best way to screw him up for a few rounds, as it forces him so Save or go Prone, and you can just cast it so only he would be affected by it. Augment the hell out of the Fleshraker while you are at it, it loses one very important attack against Yugoloths in general, that attack being it's poison. Mezoloths have no ranks in Concentraction, so the party Wizard should focus on spells that don't allow SR, and need a Touch attack to deal damage to it. Avoid Acid damage at all costs, it is immune to it. Sonic damage is the only primary energy type it is vulnerable to aside from Force. Or just run like hell. This game sounds very gimmped, from what you just told me. A Mezzoloth is a highly unbalanced encounter for an ECL of 5.5 party. This is a very hard opponent, and your DM is running him smarter than he should be, so it is even more unfair to you guys. The MM3 pins it as a CR 6 opponent, when it should be a 9. It is far more powerful than it should be. Another tactic is to just spam Summon Monster 3 and SNA 2. Earth Elementals work wonders if you do Hit-and-Dig tactics with them, hell, they can even just sit beneath the bastard and swing up at him, and he can't do a thing about it without provoking them. He has no Concentration ranks, so he can't cast defensively without a good roll. Regardless, a general opinion of people is that demons are stupid and bulky, and devils are the smart ones, so hitting him with a Ray of Stupidity is actually IC. But remember, he isn't a demon at all, but a Yugoloth. Completely different immunities list from Tanar'ri. His DR is overcome by Good, so Bless is the way to go. Other than that, find another party member. Until the Druid hits 9th, they will be a little more limited with Wild Shape. And if you didn't take Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell), then you will be pretty weak until that level too. You guys are at the perfect level for a melee build, find someone with the Tome of Battle and have them play a Warblade or Crusader. Then gang-rape the Mezoloth with a Glaive+Armor Spikes+Trip-happyness. |
| MoltenDm02-04-08, 03:39 AM | THANK YOU :D We may just make it, we have another week to plan this up, we were actually in a tight spot..because before posting here we had it all planed we had to stop playing just when we were in front of him. Sience then i found out about counterspell not working its abilities working two times per day..all changed but now we found hope in your tactics my friend. Ohh i doubt he has the orb and well cant buy it yet but he has magic missiles that will do right? ohh it allows SR i think :( any other suggestion? As for my cleric any advice on what he should focus on? We cant bring another meeler into this fight its just us 3 ohh we did buy a Dimension door scroll when we could so that may help us Crap just remembered the bastarded managed to use Cloudkill right when we opened the door (smart fellow) Our wizard has dispel magic, or should we teleport and regroup ? |
| Zog_Jakome02-04-08, 04:04 AM | I ran this adventure twice but I never ran the encounter in both cases I moved the PC's to another adventure(expedition to castle ravenloft), in essence they were taken when they were on their way to the area inside the slaughterscar. now when they return all of the valley of obelisks is going to be over run with demons. anyway since I know the adventure I won't give away much but I will say this, if you think a mezzoloth is going to be a problem wait till you find out what is next. your party right now does not seem to be built very well to do HP damage, there is a spell in spell compendium called assay spell resistance which grants a +10 bonus to overcome spell resistance. other than that I don't know what to tell you. sorry I can't be much of help. |
| MoltenDm02-04-08, 04:51 AM | Im thankful anyways, that is an interesting spell. As for damage we are able to bring alot of it but our warblade is out and my cleric needs his buffs to work so cant count with either of them now. (Unless i distrupt his dispel magic with damage :P ) My hasted cleric can strike for 2 blows at 30 damage at least per round The warblade may deal a Crit with his Keen edged (spell) falchion and gives me another shot with Whiteraven tactics. We are fairly good at melee but this damn adventure seems to go crazy once in a while, and yeah I can imagine what final showdown awaits us..uhm actually this Hot girl (a Succubus i think, not sure she just left) told us its a Gnoll chiftain and a Demon...ohh well we'll cross that bridge when we get there. One complaint my Dm has is that we need to rest every time we fight..he is kinda right because in movies and stuff you see the hero fight til' the very end and kill the bad guy in one day..but lately encounters leave us so drained..and didnt realize how bad the clerics had it with waiting til' sunrise to pay and all..didnt give wizards full credit for their 8hrs rest til' now :( |
| Kobajagrande02-04-08, 06:10 AM | Well, aside from the above:http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14637761&postcount=16 My strategy for 3rd level parties to take on an Iron Golem. Works every time, until the DM gives it wings. In which case, you run like hell! Nice. Although I think a Balance check doesn't require an action, but is made part of another action or as a reaction to a situation, and relying on a spell from supplement is a minus to effectiveness, still... |
| Mysteria02-04-08, 06:28 AM | <snip> One complaint my Dm has is that we need to rest every time we fight..he is kinda right because in movies and stuff you see the hero fight til' the very end and kill the bad guy in one day..but lately encounters leave us so drained..and didnt realize how bad the clerics had it with waiting til' sunrise to pay and all..didnt give wizards full credit for their 8hrs rest til' now :( You do realize that wizards get DAILY spells, so even if they rest more often, they don't get more spells per DAY. |
| Sinfire Titan02-04-08, 07:42 AM | Im thankful anyways, that is an interesting spell. As for damage we are able to bring alot of it but our warblade is out and my cleric needs his buffs to work so cant count with either of them now. (Unless i distrupt his dispel magic with damage :P ) My hasted cleric can strike for 2 blows at 30 damage at least per round The warblade may deal a Crit with his Keen edged (spell) falchion and gives me another shot with Whiteraven tactics. We are fairly good at melee but this damn adventure seems to go crazy once in a while, and yeah I can imagine what final showdown awaits us..uhm actually this Hot girl (a Succubus i think, not sure she just left) told us its a Gnoll chiftain and a Demon...ohh well we'll cross that bridge when we get there. One complaint my Dm has is that we need to rest every time we fight..he is kinda right because in movies and stuff you see the hero fight til' the very end and kill the bad guy in one day..but lately encounters leave us so drained..and didnt realize how bad the clerics had it with waiting til' sunrise to pay and all..didnt give wizards full credit for their 8hrs rest til' now :( A Warblade and Cleric in melee can be devastating. Haste him and yourself, and ready every action you take to disrupt his SLAs. Flank him as needed. Get the Druid's companion in on the fun, and go to town on the 'Loth. Be careful if you even suspect a Succubus. If something seems off about the Gnoll and Demon, go nonlethal only. IIRC, the Shatered Gates of Slaughtergaurd involves the Demon Prince of Gnolls, if indirectly. But still, capturing a foe is generally better than killing them, and if everything checks out, a coup or two later, you will be fine and dandy. If you could post the exact text from the part where you met the girl, I could probably tell you if it is or isn't a Succubus. The writers at WotC tend to be very blatant with these things if you know how they work. A general synopsis of what she said won't work out, but will help me help you. This is how it usually is for 1st-7th level characters. 8th and up, you should be fighting 4/day, just like the DMG says. In a party of 4, each of them being a Cleric, Wizard, Druid, and a Warblade, you should breeze through single-enemy encounters with no trouble. But if you are using nothing but Direct Damage to fight, you will find your resources run very thin, very fast. In general, only two spells need to be cast to end a fight, if both of those spells involve Battlefield Control (Grease, Glitterdust), and 4 in the case of buffs. This allows for more Encounters/day, and thusly more treasure and XP, which is never a bad thing to have more of. Nice. Although I think a Balance check doesn't require an action, but is made part of another action or as a reaction to a situation, and relying on a spell from supplement is a minus to effectiveness, still... Check Being Attacked while Balancing You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing. Accelerated Movement You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a -5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge. See also: epic usages of Balance. Action None. A Balance check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation. Special If you have the Agile feat, you get a +2 bonus on Balance checks. Synergy If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Balance checks. And the fact that Grease says "Save or Fall Prone" makes this strategy very viable. And who says you need Electric Jolt, when a wand of Lightning Bolt works even better? More costly, but still works. In the words of an Optimizer: "Making your enemy roll>>>You rolling it. You want to force things down their throats that don't rely on you making a check of any kind, and thus forcing the failure onto their ass." That statement is golden, and the creed of Battlefield Control. Rolling damage is always good though, so let the Explosive Lightning Bolts fly when needed. |
| Kobajagrande02-04-08, 12:41 PM | And the fact that Grease says "Save or Fall Prone" makes this strategy very viable. And who says you need Electric Jolt, when a wand of Lightning Bolt works even better? More costly, but still works. In the words of an Optimizer: Sorry man, you lost me now. I thought that the point was that the Golem wouldn't be able to move from the grease area. From what I see, he's just considered flat-footed, and that's fine, and he has a reasonable chance to fall prone, which is also fine as well, just... where is the thing that he can't move away? |
| Einvaldurinn_mikli02-04-08, 12:47 PM | You do realize that wizards get DAILY spells, so even if they rest more often, they don't get more spells per DAY. Actually they do. You can get two or even three sets of spells in a given 24 hour period. Clerics and other divine casters however don't. |
| Sinfire Titan02-04-08, 02:59 PM | Sorry man, you lost me now. I thought that the point was that the Golem wouldn't be able to move from the grease area. From what I see, he's just considered flat-footed, and that's fine, and he has a reasonable chance to fall prone, which is also fine as well, just... where is the thing that he can't move away? It still works that way, but being Flat-Footed when the party Rogue has a Golembane Augment Crystal is a house. And: A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). It effectivly has a 50% chance of not moving, and because it is Slowed by the Electric Jolt, even if it does move, half of it's modified speed is uber slow, giving the party mage time to cast a second Grease spell in case it ever leaves the first area. Oh, and it has a 25% chance of falling prone each round, and needs another Balance check just to stand up, which means once every 4 rounds it is SOL, and easier to hit. The important part is slowing it. Once that happens, game over, it is dead. The fight then becomes a game of "Chicken with an Iron Golem", seeing how close you can get to it before it becomes a threat again, then dominating the battle with a wand of Acid Orb. Tanglefoot bags would work, if it weren't so damn strong. But they still help when the Wizard runs out of Grease. The point of the strategy is to make the fight completely one-sided, and just toy with the stupid thing until it finally drops. Then turn it into scrap metal. And just because it doesn't give treasure doesn't mean you can't profit from it's body. All that iron has to be good for something, after all. |
| Lincoln Hills02-04-08, 03:05 PM | Dispel magic and its derivatives are always a bugger to overcome. Check the spell description for the 4th-level cleric spell spell immunity: unless I'm mistaken, the spell will block "targeted" but not "area" deployments of dispel magic. However, it's possible that the 3.5 version doesn't work quite the way I recall the 3.0 one doing. Spell turning has the same limitation, but is handier for higher-level types. |
| Kobajagrande02-04-08, 03:13 PM | It effectivly has a 50% chance of not moving, and because it is Slowed by the Electric Jolt, even if it does move, half of it's modified speed is uber slow, giving the party mage time to cast a second Grease spell in case it ever leaves the first area. Oh, and it has a 25% chance of falling prone each round, and needs another Balance check just to stand up, which means once every 4 rounds it is SOL, and easier to hit. The important part is slowing it. Once that happens, game over, it is dead. The fight then becomes a game of "Chicken with an Iron Golem", seeing how close you can get to it before it becomes a threat again, then dominating the battle with a wand of Acid Orb. Ah, ok got it. Still, its a question as to how the party overcomes the AC and deals enough damage to kill him, which is still a bit of a question for a 3rd-level party, but essentially, we're ok. |
| Nephlite02-04-08, 04:23 PM | Ah, ok got it. Still, its a question as to how the party overcomes the AC and deals enough damage to kill him, which is still a bit of a question for a 3rd-level party, but essentially, we're ok. Alchemy items like Alchemist fire go through DR and SR immunity: Iron Golems only healed by magical fire. |
| Sinfire Titan02-04-08, 04:29 PM | Ah, ok got it. Still, its a question as to how the party overcomes the AC and deals enough damage to kill him, which is still a bit of a question for a 3rd-level party, but essentially, we're ok. Ranged Touch Attacks from the Lesser Orbs of spells, and a Flat-Footed, Prone Iron Golem. Easy freaking target, if I may say so myself. The block-head can't dodge things very well, after all. Eventually, some of those arrows will deal damage through his DR via Sneak Attack and an augment crystal. And those orbs are almost guaranteed to hit the golem, SR or not. |
| Kobajagrande02-04-08, 05:23 PM | Ranged Touch Attacks from the Lesser Orbs of spells, and a Flat-Footed, Prone Iron Golem. Easy freaking target, if I may say so myself. The block-head can't dodge things very well, after all. Eventually, some of those arrows will deal damage through his DR via Sneak Attack and an augment crystal. And those orbs are almost guaranteed to hit the golem, SR or not. Ah, ok. Still only pretty much works with supplements. Thanks anyways! |
| MoltenDm02-04-08, 05:37 PM | I wouldnt worry about that Succubus assuming that it was one, my Dm got tired of roleplaying her and just teleported her so I highly doubt she'll be coming back. We will change our combat strategy and try to get helpful battlefield control help instead of just damage, i'll try not to use every buff and have other spells ready. Im going with distrupting his spells with damage spells..unless the demon figures it out and teleports behind our caster and casts Dispel magic or cloudkill..which is a possibility My Dm doesnt really like it when we overcome serious encounters easily even if we "overthink" them (thanks to you guys err he doesnt know that but still) |
| Sinfire Titan02-04-08, 06:23 PM | I wouldnt worry about that Succubus assuming that it was one, my Dm got tired of roleplaying her and just teleported her so I highly doubt she'll be coming back. We will change our combat strategy and try to get helpful battlefield control help instead of just damage, i'll try not to use every buff and have other spells ready. Im going with distrupting his spells with damage spells..unless the demon figures it out and teleports behind our caster and casts Dispel magic or cloudkill..which is a possibility My Dm doesnt really like it when we overcome serious encounters easily even if we "overthink" them (thanks to you guys err he doesnt know that but still) In that case it was a demon and you should use nonlethal on the Gnoll, capture it, and make sure everything is ok before killing it. Here is the problem with him Teleporting: You can still disrupt it. Always ready an action for when he uses any SLA, even that one. This shouldn't be an easy encounter just because of it's summoning capabilities. If it goes off, you have a handful of new problems to deal with, and limited resources to do away with them. Sounds like the DM is trying to make this a PC versus DM game. How often does he get ticked at you guys? Does he laugh every time you guys fall for even simple traps? Does he throw higher CR enemies at you, expecting the to kill you outright? And does he get ticked if you guys survive it? If you answer yes to at least two of those, get the hell out of Dodge. Start a new game, run it yourself, and pay heed to what advice people here give you about dealing with your players/house rules. From what I understand, you are almost through with the module. It was meant for 1st-6th levels, from what I know about it, so the Mezzoloth should be close to the very end of the campaign. If you have any other questions about the enemies in it, feel free to ask me about them here. I consider myself a tactical optimizer, I try and get the largest benefit out of a minimal tactical investment. Makes my fights nice and easy to run. |
| MoltenDm02-04-08, 06:37 PM | Thanks again Sinfire i'll be sure to ask for help if needed, as for my Dm he is the same guy who posted with this account a question rewarding how to compensate players (that will give you an idea) Im not sure if he understands his teleporting SLA, sience Demons and devils have it at will im not sure he'll abide by the 2 per day count that could be an issue. |
| Sinfire Titan02-04-08, 07:40 PM | Thanks again Sinfire i'll be sure to ask for help if needed, as for my Dm he is the same guy who posted with this account a question rewarding how to compensate players (that will give you an idea) Im not sure if he understands his teleporting SLA, sience Demons and devils have it at will im not sure he'll abide by the 2 per day count that could be an issue. Well, he is free to change that ability as he sees fit, but it is written in the text block. It won't change the strategy that much, or the CR. If he doesn't leave it be, point it out to him, but wait until after the session is over to do it. |
| Mysteria02-05-08, 02:25 AM | Actually they do. You can get two or even three sets of spells in a given 24 hour period. Clerics and other divine casters however don't. :rolleyes: |
| MoltenDm02-05-08, 05:13 PM | :rolleyes: He is right....right? |
| Kobajagrande02-05-08, 05:39 PM | He is right....right? I too was confused by numerous use of complely ambigous word "daily" in various sentences that leave a lot to interpretation (such as "spells per day" and "prepare her daily spells"). |
| Zog_Jakome02-05-08, 05:50 PM | Im thankful anyways, that is an interesting spell. As for damage we are able to bring alot of it but our warblade is out and my cleric needs his buffs to work so cant count with either of them now. (Unless i distrupt his dispel magic with damage :P ) My hasted cleric can strike for 2 blows at 30 damage at least per round The warblade may deal a Crit with his Keen edged (spell) falchion and gives me another shot with Whiteraven tactics. We are fairly good at melee but this damn adventure seems to go crazy once in a while, and yeah I can imagine what final showdown awaits us..uhm actually this Hot girl (a Succubus i think, not sure she just left) told us its a Gnoll chiftain and a Demon...ohh well we'll cross that bridge when we get there. One complaint my Dm has is that we need to rest every time we fight..he is kinda right because in movies and stuff you see the hero fight til' the very end and kill the bad guy in one day..but lately encounters leave us so drained..and didnt realize how bad the clerics had it with waiting til' sunrise to pay and all..didnt give wizards full credit for their 8hrs rest til' now :( problem is you don't know which kind of demon. if she was a succubus then she may have just lied to you for no reason at all, they are chaotic. If your DM complains about resting too much I suggest buying unearthed arcana, there is a variant in there called the spell point system with vitalization rules. This variant allows you to cast several spells per day with out the need for rest. it used to be like 6 bucks but they sold all of them; now they are about 16 bucks with shipping and handling He is right....right? no I am afraid not, the number of spells a wizard knows cannot exceed his daily allotment no matter how much he rested. |
| Sinfire Titan02-05-08, 08:32 PM | problem is you don't know which kind of demon. if she was a succubus then she may have just lied to you for no reason at all, they are chaotic. If your DM complains about resting too much I suggest buying unearthed arcana, there is a variant in there called the spell point system with vitalization rules. This variant allows you to cast several spells per day with out the need for rest. it used to be like 6 bucks but they sold all of them; now they are about 16 bucks with shipping and handling no I am afraid not, the number of spells a wizard Prepares cannot exceed his daily allotment no matter how much he rested. Fixed. And Unearthed Arcana is OGL, so it is also in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org). |
| Mysteria02-06-08, 03:15 AM | He is right....right? Only when the days in his campaign are only 9-10 hours long ... :P I say he's wrong, but as there's always people adamantly argumenting that since it says wizards need 8 hours of rest before regaining spells, that that means that they can regain their spell every 8 hours, completely ignoring that daily means per day and that a normal day has 24 hours I didn't want to go into that argument. 'nough said, do whatever floats your boat, in my game that kind of argument won't hold. |
| MoltenDm02-06-08, 06:12 AM | lol really...yeah the party wizard has been feeling allmighty with me having to wait til sunrise :devil: But hell im not about to screw myself by making him weaker :rolleyes: ... tempting tho |
| Flicker02-06-08, 06:27 AM | Well, aside from the above:http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14637761&postcount=16 My strategy for 3rd level parties to take on an Iron Golem. Works every time, until the DM gives it wings. In which case, you run like hell! I hate to say this Titan, but i think you may find this could hurt, your grease only last 3 rounds and as a 3rd level caster you can cast what? 3 maybe, 4 at the outside. So 9 or 12 rounds, and this is a monster with over 100 hit points, and you are doing what 2/3 points of damage with your 0 lvl wand? Me thinks you will run out of grease and it will stand up and butcher you. |
| Sinfire Titan02-06-08, 07:54 AM | I hate to say this Titan, but i think you may find this could hurt, your grease only last 3 rounds and as a 3rd level caster you can cast what? 3 maybe, 4 at the outside. So 9 or 12 rounds, and this is a monster with over 100 hit points, and you are doing what 2/3 points of damage with your 0 lvl wand? Me thinks you will run out of grease and it will stand up and butcher you. Wand o' Greasiness. Have one person do overtime on it, the golem still can't get up. Or use Lard, from Dungeonscape. Probably cheaper on low-levels, so it works nicely. Or have a Focused Conjurer, like you are supposed to. And the wand of Electric Jolt doesn't deal damage, it does the Slowing. The wand of Lesser Orb of Acid does the damage, albeit slowly. And so does Melf's Acid Arrow. A Focused Conjurer has 4 1st level spells at 3rd level, not counting Bonus Spells. They also have 3 2nd levels to work with, all of which would be Acid Arrow. 12 Rounds of Grease effectively, before the Int score kicks in. And 6 rounds of 2d4 acid damage, before Alchemical Items or Bonus Spells. Or hell, Reserve Feats (Acid Splatter, much?). You go to town on the guy, kick it's ass, and scrap the corpse for cash. Then watch as your DM cries. |
| Nephlite02-06-08, 09:13 AM | Wand o' Greasiness. Have one person do overtime on it, the golem still can't get up. Or use Lard, from Dungeonscape. Probably cheaper on low-levels, so it works nicely. Or have a Focused Conjurer, like you are supposed to. And the wand of Electric Jolt doesn't deal damage, it does the Slowing. The wand of Lesser Orb of Acid does the damage, albeit slowly. And so does Melf's Acid Arrow. A Focused Conjurer has 4 1st level spells at 3rd level, not counting Bonus Spells. They also have 3 2nd levels to work with, all of which would be Acid Arrow. 12 Rounds of Grease effectively, before the Int score kicks in. And 6 rounds of 2d4 acid damage, before Alchemical Items or Bonus Spells. Or hell, Reserve Feats (Acid Splatter, much?). You go to town on the guy, kick it's ass, and scrap the corpse for cash. Then watch as your DM cries. If non-core, Orb spells work. Also Alchemy items work. Tanglefoot bag: yes, he can escaoe it, but he loses his action to excape (because it takes a action). Acid vials work great. Even Alchemist fire works as it is non-magical. |
| Varia02-06-08, 11:49 AM | Well, aside from the above:http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14637761&postcount=16 My strategy for 3rd level parties to take on an Iron Golem. Works every time, until the DM gives it wings. In which case, you run like hell! They seem to have nerfed golems somewhat in 3.5, although theyre also easier to build too. However, the electric jolt thing wont work, since that does NOT ignore SR and the golem is therefore immune. Even ignoring the broken nature of orb spells, thats still 16-19 of the things you will need, since some of them will miss. Add in the grease spells and thats 20-25 first level spells your party will need. Thats 4 lvl 3 sorcerers, or 8 wizards, which is stretching the definition of "party" a bit. "Specially formed hit squad" sure, but not party. Do bear in mind also that grease isnt infallible. It will make its reflex save over half the time, and its balance check nearly half. Even if it does fall there is nothing preventing it from just crawling out of the area of the grease first, and then standing up, and its wise enough to do so. |
| Varia02-06-08, 11:59 AM | Only when the days in his campaign are only 9-10 hours long ... :P I say he's wrong, but as there's always people adamantly argumenting that since it says wizards need 8 hours of rest before regaining spells, that that means that they can regain their spell every 8 hours, completely ignoring that daily means per day and that a normal day has 24 hours I didn't want to go into that argument. 'nough said, do whatever floats your boat, in my game that kind of argument won't hold. There's no particular reason why a wizard cant regain spells more than once a day with appropriate rest. After all, he can unload on a passing rock right before bedtime and be ready to go 10 hours later after a nice sleep and a good breakfast, which is less than half a day, let alone a full day. The real limitation is the quality of rest required- its hard to go to bed and really rest after you've only been up for a few hours, unless you've been on short sleep for several days beforehand, and its that that will prevent reloading spells, and nothing else really. If the character is legitimately tired sooner than the usual 14+ hours of waking time then they *should* be allowed to rest and recover spells faster, for as long as that situation persists. But it shouldnt come up very often. |
| Mysteria02-06-08, 12:02 PM | See ... that's why I said I don't want to start that kind of argument all over again. ;) |
| Sinfire Titan02-06-08, 02:10 PM | They seem to have nerfed golems somewhat in 3.5, although theyre also easier to build too. However, the electric jolt thing wont work, since that does NOT ignore SR and the golem is therefore immune. Even ignoring the broken nature of orb spells, thats still 16-19 of the things you will need, since some of them will miss. Add in the grease spells and thats 20-25 first level spells your party will need. Thats 4 lvl 3 sorcerers, or 8 wizards, which is stretching the definition of "party" a bit. "Specially formed hit squad" sure, but not party. Do bear in mind also that grease isnt infallible. It will make its reflex save over half the time, and its balance check nearly half. Even if it does fall there is nothing preventing it from just crawling out of the area of the grease first, and then standing up, and its wise enough to do so. Actually, this is debatable. The Iron Golem specifically says certain spells affect it, though it does not say that they have to not allow SR. See: Immunity to Magic (Ex) Golems have immunity to most magical and supernatural effects, except when otherwise noted. Oh look, SR is meaningless against Electric Jolt for an Iron Golem, because it has the Electricity descriptor. The Golem doesn't get a save, and is automatically Slowed for 3 rounds. It also has a Base Land Speed of 20 ft. Half that, and it can only move 10 ft. in one round. Now hit it with the Slow, and it can't move more than 5 ft. a round, so you can put plenty of distance between a 3rd level party and the golem, and it will never reach you guys. Do note: I mention using a WAND of the spells for a reason. And you only need an Extended Grease spell 3 times, and a regular one 5 times to get the right durations you guys would need. Fully possible for a Focused Specialist or a Sorcerer. And this isn't counting any tricks to recover spells per day, such as Chaotic Spell Recall (which requires at least 5th level Wizard to work). See? Fully possible, and no special loopholes. A 3rd level party that knew what they were going to go up against would easily be able to beat an Iron Golem. |
| Zog_Jakome02-06-08, 02:37 PM | Fixed. And Unearthed Arcana is OGL, so it is also in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org). yea thanks for that. it is prepares. wow I didn't know unearthed arcana was open game content that is news to me. what else besides core is open game? |
| Zog_Jakome02-06-08, 02:54 PM | There's no particular reason why a wizard cant regain spells more than once a day with appropriate rest. After all, he can unload on a passing rock right before bedtime and be ready to go 10 hours later after a nice sleep and a good breakfast, which is less than half a day, let alone a full day. The real limitation is the quality of rest required- its hard to go to bed and really rest after you've only been up for a few hours, unless you've been on short sleep for several days beforehand, and its that that will prevent reloading spells, and nothing else really. If the character is legitimately tired sooner than the usual 14+ hours of waking time then they *should* be allowed to rest and recover spells faster, for as long as that situation persists. But it shouldnt come up very often. *sigh* ok so say you rest for 8 hours spend an hour gaining your spells then you rest again for another 8 hours a mere 17 hours has only passed thus you gain twice the spells right? NOOOO!!!! when you rest to regain spells you replace those that you change keep those that don't change. you don't gain more. the maximum amount of spells you have prepared at any one point in time cannot exceed your daily alotment no matter how much you have rested. |
| Sinfire Titan02-06-08, 05:48 PM | yea thanks for that. it is prepares. wow I didn't know unearthed arcana was open game content that is news to me. what else besides core is open game? Expanded Psionics Handbook, Epic Level Handbook, and some parts of MM2, namely the Razor Boar and Scorpionfolk. |
| Kobajagrande02-06-08, 08:47 PM | The Golem doesn't get a save, and is automatically Slowed for 3 rounds. It also has a Base Land Speed of 20 ft. Half that, and it can only move 10 ft. in one round. Now hit it with the Slow, and it can't move more than 5 ft. a round, so you can put plenty of distance between a 3rd level party and the golem, and it will never reach you guys. Multiple slow effects do not stack.Just saying. |
| Sinfire Titan02-06-08, 09:05 PM | Multiple slow effects do not stack.Just saying. Slow+Grease= 1/4 movement. |
| Varia02-06-08, 11:18 PM | Oh look, SR is meaningless against Electric Jolt for an Iron Golem, because it has the Electricity descriptor. The Golem doesn't get a save, and is automatically Slowed for 3 rounds. It also has a Base Land Speed of 20 ft. Half that, and it can only move 10 ft. in one round. Now hit it with the Slow, and it can't move more than 5 ft. a round, so you can put plenty of distance between a 3rd level party and the golem, and it will never reach you guys. Do note: I mention using a WAND of the spells for a reason. And you only need an Extended Grease spell 3 times, and a regular one 5 times to get the right durations you guys would need. Actually the line is "An iron golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. IN ADDITION certain spells and effects function diffferently against the creature as noted below." Thats an additional restriction, not an alternate one as you suggest. MM > SRD. Er, I dont understand the point of extended grease spell you mentioned, since that only increases the duration of the spell and not the area, and even at slowed crawling speed its not gonna be in the area of effect more than 2 rounds. Question- is there anything that says or suggests that golems cant throw things just like anyone else? Even with the dex penalty, whatever the penalty is for using impromptu missiles, and the range increment penalties, thats enough BAB left over be a serious threat to lowbies trying to cheese the golem. Which is neither here nor there for purposes of this particular discussion, but is a general question for a different scenario. |
| Varia02-06-08, 11:28 PM | *sigh* ok so say you rest for 8 hours spend an hour gaining your spells then you rest again for another 8 hours a mere 17 hours has only passed thus you gain twice the spells right? NOOOO!!!! when you rest to regain spells you replace those that you change keep those that don't change. you don't gain more. the maximum amount of spells you have prepared at any one point in time cannot exceed your daily alotment no matter how much you have rested. Sigh yourself- reading comprehension for the win. I said REGAIN, not GAIN. If he has any spells to REGAIN (ie- he has expended some of his normal spell load) then there's no reason he cant rest 8 hours and recover those spells PROVIDED he is tired enough to actually rest properly (rather than just tossing and turning trying to rest and failing to actually get any rest). We've all had nights like that, so you know what its like to try to rest and fail. The resting more than once a day thing is a more realistic and likely option in those game systems where spellcasting itself is actually a source of serious fatigue for the caster, like Rolemaster. A rolemaster caster who's used 3/4 of his mana definitely qualifies as tired enough to take a nap. D+D doesnt have spellcasting = fatigue so its not an option. What in the living hel* made you think I was saying a wizard could get more spells in his mind at one time than his normal spell capacity? |
| Sinfire Titan02-07-08, 12:49 AM | Actually the line is "An iron golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. IN ADDITION certain spells and effects function diffferently against the creature as noted below." Thats an additional restriction, not an alternate one as you suggest. MM > SRD. Er, I dont understand the point of extended grease spell you mentioned, since that only increases the duration of the spell and not the area, and even at slowed crawling speed its not gonna be in the area of effect more than 2 rounds. Question- is there anything that says or suggests that golems cant throw things just like anyone else? Even with the dex penalty, whatever the penalty is for using impromptu missiles, and the range increment penalties, thats enough BAB left over be a serious threat to lowbies trying to cheese the golem. Which is neither here nor there for purposes of this particular discussion, but is a general question for a different scenario. Yes, and those spells don't need to overcome SR, because the effect of it is overridden by the Iron Goelm's weakness to Electricity. Note the "In Addition" clause. This supersedes the Spell Immunity, were it not there, what you are saying would be true. Also, the SRD is the MM, Errata included. So it overrides what is printed by sheer authority. It includes all of the latest errata, and is therefore more up-to-date than the printed text. Show me a ruling otherwise from an offical source, and I will believe you. Until then, my interpretation is an accurate one, just as much as yours is. Iron Golems aren't smart enough to figure that out themselves. Unless the master is nearby, they will take the most direct route to the enemy, and it will take them a few rounds to move across a standard Grease spell. Also, every other round, they will fall prone. Granted, Extending it might not be the most effective use, but it is still a viable option. Do remember that play can vary wildly based on die rolls, and percentage is only a number during actual game play. It is very possible that they won't make it across even the first casting of a Grease spell, and this is the very thing that separate it from success and failure. Regardless, it will be slowed down considerably, and allows for a Hit-and-Run strategy to be fully effective. Unless ordered to, they aren't smart enough to throw a weapon either. They need to be given direct orders to do so. None of the Golems in the MM have a Ranged attack entry for this very reason. In fact, I anticipate that you won't find a non-sentient Golem with such an entry short of the MM5, in which several constructs were crafted with this very purpose. They aren't proficient with any weapon they are not described as using in their text block, after all, just like Undead. |
| Zog_Jakome02-07-08, 08:11 PM | Expanded Psionics Handbook, Epic Level Handbook, and some parts of MM2, namely the Razor Boar and Scorpionfolk. actually I just checked epic level handbook and expanded psionics handbook and it is NOT open game content. says it right on the 1st page right before the contents D+D doesnt have spellcasting = fatigue so its not an option. actually in my game we use spell point system with vitalization so it does actually make you fatigued and exhausted. What in the living hel* made you think I was saying a wizard could get more spells in his mind at one time than his normal spell capacity? allow me to explain my self in a multitude and colorful array of quotes it all started with mysteria... You do realize that wizards get DAILY spells, so even if they rest more often, they don't get more spells per DAY. then Einvaldurinn_mikli reponded with this. I assumed this to mean getting more spells than your daily alotment. Actually they do. You can get two or even three sets of spells in a given 24 hour period. Clerics and other divine casters however don't. then mysteria rolled his eyes (emoticon) this caused the original poster moltendm to respond with this... He is right....right? then I responded with this... no I am afraid not, the number of spells a wizard Prepares cannot exceed his daily allotment no matter how much he rested. as well as mysteria responding with this... Only when the days in his campaign are only 9-10 hours long ... :P I say he's wrong, but as there's always people adamantly argumenting that since it says wizards need 8 hours of rest before regaining spells, that that means that they can regain their spell every 8 hours, completely ignoring that daily means per day and that a normal day has 24 hours I didn't want to go into that argument. 'nough said, do whatever floats your boat, in my game that kind of argument won't hold. then you responded with this... There's no particular reason why a wizard cant regain spells more than once a day with appropriate rest. After all, he can unload on a passing rock right before bedtime and be ready to go 10 hours later after a nice sleep and a good breakfast, which is less than half a day, let alone a full day. The real limitation is the quality of rest required- its hard to go to bed and really rest after you've only been up for a few hours, unless you've been on short sleep for several days beforehand, and its that that will prevent reloading spells, and nothing else really. If the character is legitimately tired sooner than the usual 14+ hours of waking time then they *should* be allowed to rest and recover spells faster, for as long as that situation persists. But it shouldnt come up very often. so there seems to be 3 arguements that I perceived 1 that can get twice the spells 1 that can re-prepare their spells after 8 hour of rest no matter what time of day it is. and 1 arguement that says you must wait 24 hours before regaining your spells because the definition is spells per day and a day is 24 hours long I thought Einvaldurinn_mikli said that by sets he means gaining more spells per day just by resting more, which led to mysteria saying that he's wrong and I 100% agree with him. then you said that "there is no reason why wizards can't regain their spells more than once per day" I read that meaning you oppose Mysteria which led to me explaining that it can't be done mainly because it is too game breaking, and ludicrous. so bottom line it was all just a big misunderstanding. I say that if you spent 8 hours resting you could wipe your spells and prepare them with a clean slate, no matter what time of day it is. |
| MoltenDm02-07-08, 09:09 PM | Im guessing you mean that for Arcane casters.. It does make sense that A.Casters can "get" more than one set sience there is no "ritual" involved (like clerics i.e a Cleric of Pelor waiting for Sunrise..thats flavorful) Still its a little unfair :weep: But hey clerics rule anyways so whatever :P As long as im here i'd like to talk about the original thread (the showdown isnt til' monday) I was thinking about how good is that damn cloudkill and remembered the concelment thing, if we cant see him he cant see us either right? How could we use this? He cant target me with Dispel magic hmm? |
| calronmoonflower02-08-08, 02:40 AM | actually I just checked epic level handbook and expanded psionics handbook and it is NOT open game content. says it right on the 1st page right before the contents Try looking in the SRD. Most of the contents of both are included. |
| Kobajagrande02-08-08, 04:40 AM | Sigh yourself- reading comprehension for the win. I said REGAIN, not GAIN. If he has any spells to REGAIN (ie- he has expended some of his normal spell load) then there's no reason he cant rest 8 hours and recover those spells Except the fact that it clearly says "A wizard may cast a number of spells per day". Spells per day. Daily allotment of spells. Daily spells. Reading comprehension ftw indeed. |
| Varia02-08-08, 07:01 AM | actually I just checked epic level handbook and expanded psionics handbook and it is NOT open game content. says it right on the 1st page right before the contents actually in my game we use spell point system with vitalization so it does actually make you fatigued and exhausted. allow me to explain my self in a multitude and colorful array of quotes it all started with mysteria... then Einvaldurinn_mikli reponded with this. I assumed this to mean getting more spells than your daily alotment. then mysteria rolled his eyes (emoticon) this caused the original poster moltendm to respond with this... then I responded with this... as well as mysteria responding with this... then you responded with this... so there seems to be 3 arguements that I perceived 1 that can get twice the spells 1 that can re-prepare their spells after 8 hour of rest no matter what time of day it is. and 1 arguement that says you must wait 24 hours before regaining your spells because the definition is spells per day and a day is 24 hours long I thought Einvaldurinn_mikli said that by sets he means gaining more spells per day just by resting more, which led to mysteria saying that he's wrong and I 100% agree with him. then you said that "there is no reason why wizards can't regain their spells more than once per day" I read that meaning you oppose Mysteria which led to me explaining that it can't be done mainly because it is too game breaking, and ludicrous. so bottom line it was all just a big misunderstanding. I say that if you spent 8 hours resting you could wipe your spells and prepare them with a clean slate, no matter what time of day it is. Ah, well there's your problem- you read other peoples posts! :P I agree that time of day is irrelevant. The only thing thats relevant, to me at least, is whether or not the caster is tired enough to rest properly for 8 hours, which *could* happen more than once in a 24 hour period under the right circumstances. |
| Sinfire Titan02-08-08, 10:17 AM | Try looking in the SRD. Most of the contents of both are included. Yep. Everything none-descriptive is on it. |
| Einvaldurinn_mikli02-08-08, 11:37 AM | Except the fact that it clearly says "A wizard may cast a number of spells per day". Spells per day. Daily allotment of spells. Daily spells. Reading comprehension ftw indeed. Them's not the rules you know. I've had this argument before and I had a CustServ ruling on this. I'm right, you are wrong. Since I've lost the CustServ reply, I shall have to make due with SRD quotes. Rest To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit. I'm right and you are wrong. It's that simple. |
| Mysteria02-08-08, 01:37 PM | :banghead: That still doesn't say that you can regain them more than once in a day. Anyway, yes, you can argue around all day citing RAW, I stil think that the rules didn't intend for a wizard to be able to regain his spell more than once in a day (hence the use of daily in the description ... not: after each rest of 8 hours), especially as that would be unfair (dare I say: unbalanced) compared to the cleric where the rules are clear. :rant: In any case, I think that if you allow wizards to regain spells each time they rest 8 hours, I say you also have to let cleric pray for spells again when rested ... After all, if the cleric really needs them, why should his god deny them. :pbbbtt: By the way, there are 13(!) instances where it mentions day or daily in reference to wizard spells ... PREPARING WIZARD SPELLS A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level. Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit. ... Spell Preparation Time: After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state. Spell Selection and Preparation: Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells. When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. ... |
| Kobajagrande02-08-08, 01:56 PM | I'm right and you are wrong. It's that simple. Main Entry: dai·ly Pronunciation: \ˈdā-lē\ Function: adjective Date: 15th century 1 a: occurring, made, or acted upon every day <daily needs> b: issued every day or every weekday <a daily newspaper> c: of or providing for every day <a daily schedule> 2 a: reckoned by the day <average daily wage> b: covering the period of or based on a day <daily statistics> |
| Einvaldurinn_mikli02-08-08, 02:01 PM | It doesn't have to say you can regain them more then once every day. It gives you the specific conditions which you must fulfill in order to regain your spells. When you do, you regain your spells. |
| Kobajagrande02-08-08, 02:04 PM | Yeah, and the word "Day" is actually a misspelling there. Throughout every single book of D&D. |
| Einvaldurinn_mikli02-08-08, 02:07 PM | Yeah, and the word "Day" is actually a misspelling there. Throughout every single book of D&D. Rules are rules. Name of a class feature doesn't change them. Just email CustServ if you aren't willing to read the quote I provided. |
| Kobajagrande02-08-08, 02:21 PM | The one that says "for the comming day" and "daily limit"? |
| Mysteria02-08-08, 06:13 PM | That 8-hour rule is, imho, an additional restriction, not the only requisite that has to be fullfilled, whatever CustServ says. And now I should really stop hijacking this thread ... To the OP: sorry, but I couldn't resist. :embarrass |
| MoltenDm02-08-08, 06:36 PM | Dont worry there are no further developments on my combat yet and this helps keep the thread alive i guess lol Besides Im also curious about the whole wizards getting spells thing :P |
| Einvaldurinn_mikli02-08-08, 06:38 PM | That 8-hour rule is, imho, an additional restriction, not the only requisite that has to be fullfilled, whatever CustServ says. And now I should really stop hijacking this thread ... To the OP: sorry, but I couldn't resist. :embarrass And what other requisite must be met to regain spells? Please provide me with a quote from the SRD. |
| Mysteria02-08-08, 06:49 PM | MoltenDM: Well, you've heard my take on it. :) Feel free to use some of the arguments to try to sway your DM to let your cleric regain spells several times per day too as it seems he lets your wizard do that too, it would only be fair. :) Einvaldurinn mikli: I have nothing else to add than what I have already posted above. Either agree or disagree, but I don't think discussing it further is going anywhere. I just don't think the use of day and daily is intended as being only fluff, sorry. |
| MoltenDm02-08-08, 06:55 PM | Will do. As long as we are here, i was checking the feat index to see if they had an index for the fighter's bonus feats sience im thinking of becoming an Ordained Champ and not sure what feats to pick yet, is there a list out here? |
| Zog_Jakome02-10-08, 07:16 AM | all a wizard needs to prepare her spells is 8 hours of rest, her spellbook, the proper environment, and 1 hour or less. I don't need to quote myself because if you would just read the player's handbook everyonce in a while and interpret like evry one else does you would see that the majority is usually right. they do not have the proper definition of what D&D considers a day, and you cannot quote things from the dictionary in the real world because most of the time D&D defines it differently. but consider this how many hours can you walk in a day?... 8 how man hours can you work on any item magic or otherwise?... 8 so under those definitions a day is 8 hours but the time it takes for a day to pass is 24 hours but you can only do 8 hours worth of anything in a 24 hour period the other 16 hours are spent cooking, eating, sleeping, bathroom duties, shaving, showering, sharpening, reading, writing all the other crap that we do not have to say our characters are doing. DM-"what are you doing?" player-"I sit up from my bed, swing my legs over the side and proceed to use my muscles to stand up. I walk over to the clothes rack I pick up a pair of pants, I lift my right leg and put into the right pant-leg, I then lift up the left leg and put into the left pant-leg..." you get the idea. this is not the point I am trying to make I just think that's kind of humorous. but you say nothing says that you can regain spells more than once per day, but on the opposite end nothing says you can't either it simply says you need 8 hours of rest. read the player's handbook, and use common sense to interpret it correctly or at least the way that EVERYONE else does. if you do a poll and show that everyone thinks this can't be done, I'll say "ok" and move on. besides clerics can simply choose any spell on their spell list they balance this by limiting their regaining of spells to only once per day, because it actually says that they regain spells at certain time of the day everyday no matter if they got rest or not. |
| Zog_Jakome02-10-08, 07:24 AM | Ah, well there's your problem- you read other peoples posts! :P I agree that time of day is irrelevant. The only thing thats relevant, to me at least, is whether or not the caster is tired enough to rest properly for 8 hours, which *could* happen more than once in a 24 hour period under the right circumstances. they don't need to sleep to qualify as rest I can sit there doing nothing and be resting eventually I am going to need some shuteye but according the rules they don't actually need to sleep it's that is usually the case. and why would a wizard want to rest to regain spells he JUST prepared why not just say he had the prepared from the beginning unless of course he cast something. |
| Mysteria02-10-08, 08:09 AM | Molten DM: I haven't found that kind of list. I found one of 'fighter-only' feats, but that's not what you need. However, I bet that the guys on the character optimization board could point you in the right direction for feats. ;) To those that say 'day' isn't defined in the PHB: Afaik, there's no definition of 'dead' in the PHB either ... Well, it does say that my soul departs, but that is surely just fluff, and as there is nothing that says that I can't cast spells while dead, I should be able to do so. :P |
| Sinfire Titan02-10-08, 05:26 PM | Molten DM: I haven't found that kind of list. I found one of 'fighter-only' feats, but that's not what you need. However, I bet that the guys on the character optimization board could point you in the right direction for feats. ;) To those that say 'day' isn't defined in the PHB: Afaik, there's no definition of 'dead' in the PHB either ... Well, it does say that my soul departs, but that is surely just fluff, and as there is nothing that says that I can't cast spells while dead, I should be able to do so. :P But you are unconscious (normally) while you are dead, and you can't take actions when out cold. |
| Kimokeo02-10-08, 11:24 PM | Regarding your golem battle with third level characters. You have 2,700gp per the DMG. Normally you can't spend, what is it, a third or fourth on any one item. So, at 1/3 = 900gp and if it's 1/4 = 675gp. If it is 1/4, then you can't afford a 1st level spell wand. I'm looking at a 3rd level wizard. What would the wizard have spent money on? |
| Zog_Jakome02-11-08, 03:36 AM | Molten DM: I haven't found that kind of list. I found one of 'fighter-only' feats, but that's not what you need. However, I bet that the guys on the character optimization board could point you in the right direction for feats. ;) To those that say 'day' isn't defined in the PHB: Afaik, there's no definition of 'dead' in the PHB either ... Well, it does say that my soul departs, but that is surely just fluff, and as there is nothing that says that I can't cast spells while dead, I should be able to do so. :P good point however in the complete divine what happens when you die is described in overwhelming detail and as it does not say you can't cast spells; it does say you can't think; meaning you don't have an inteligence score; meaning your in a coma. |
| Nephlite02-11-08, 07:34 AM | Regarding your golem battle with third level characters. You have 2,700gp per the DMG. Normally you can't spend, what is it, a third or fourth on any one item. So, at 1/3 = 900gp and if it's 1/4 = 675gp. If it is 1/4, then you can't afford a 1st level spell wand. I'm looking at a 3rd level wizard. What would the wizard have spent money on? It is 1/4th on page 199 DMG. But that is a suggestion. It says you might, not you should. |
| Mysteria02-11-08, 07:49 AM | But you are unconscious (normally) while you are dead, and you can't take actions when out cold. Oh, please, do you have to take everything dead seriously. :P |