Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatWyrm 07-20-06, 01:43 AM	Well, since the boards fubarrage, my old post by the same title got deleted. Here's the case: My group, or at least 2 of the people who DM most frequently (including the biggest rules-lawyer), refuse that power attack damage is multiplied on criticals. The biggest opponent is using page 140 where it says "extra damage above and beyond the weapon's normal damage ... is not multiplied ... " Regardless of the fact that the only examples cited are extra damage dice, it says "extra damage dice is not multiplied" several times, and page 134 that says, specifically, you multiply the damage "with all modifiers". (Power Attack specifically says that the extra damage is a bonus and the glossary specifically states a bonus is a modifier [he says this logic in itself is a logical fallacy *rolls eyes*] ). So, please, help me. Is there any (more) specific rulings anywhere? Any emails from wizards? Also, I'd prefer no arguments using the SRD, as it's "not official" (according to the rules lawyer, and he has a point..ish). I'll be pointing him to this thread- Thanks for any help.
Nom 07-20-06, 02:34 AM	Well, considering that the SRD is a subset of the PH, claiming that it is not "official" is somewhat inane. However, any difference between the PH and the SRD will be that the SRD lacks clarifying information, so that won't help. The PH rules are quite clear. Both PH pg 134 (the definitive rules on crits) and the PH glossary explicitly call out "extra damage dice" as not being multiplied, with the examples given being sneak attack and flaming. If your group wishes to draw lines beyond this clear one, you get into all sorts of problems. Specifically, which of the following are included on a critical hit?: * Str bonus * Magical enhancement bonus to damage * smite * favoured enemy * power attack * Weapon Specialisation * Point Blank Shot The PH covers Str in the example on pg 134. Favoured enemy is covered on pg 13 of the Jun 2006 FAQ (under 'Ranger'). The others are covered under the "except bonus dice" rule, but if your group insists on ignoring that there's not a lot you can do.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-20-06, 03:36 AM	Are those idiots still refusing crit power attacks after all this time? Ditch them. Willful ignorance and stubbornness like that are no good for anybody and damned hard to change, if it's negatively affecting you, get away from it.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-20-06, 03:40 AM	How about the Official D&D FAQ? What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and using a +3 greataxe and a maximum Power Attack. How much damage does the barbarian deal? Can you even use the Power Attack feat while raging? What if the character is a paladin using the smite evil ability, a fighter with Weapon Specialization, or a rogue using a sneak attack? It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack (see page 123 in the Player’s Handbook). The example character has a base attack bonus of +10, so the damage bonus for a “maximum power attack” is +10. (Yes, you can use Power Attack while raging. In fact, you can use just about any feat except Expertise while raging; see the section on rage in the barbarian class description in the Players’ Handbook.) The character’s Strength score increases to 22 while he rages, giving him a +6 damage bonus for Strength, which increases to +9 because a greataxe is a two-handed weapon. The greataxe’s +3 enhancement bonus also applies to damage, so the character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+22 (10+9+3). A confirmed critical hit makes the damage 3d12+66, just as if you had rolled 1d12+22 three times. An example specifically citing Power Attack, and its inclusion in critical damage multiplication. A group chooses to ignore this, its a house rule and there's nothing we can do about it.
Treebore 07-20-06, 04:26 AM	You may want to point out to your rules lawyer that the SRD is so official that EVERYONE in the industry goes by it. It is THE d20 3E D&D document. It even has all the errata in it. Plus I'm not very impressed that he can't tell the difference between bonus damage dice and a damage bonus.
GreatWyrm 07-20-06, 04:56 AM	How about the Official D&D FAQ? An example specifically citing Power Attack, and its inclusion in critical damage multiplication. A group chooses to ignore this, its a house rule and there's nothing we can do about it. Could you provide a link, please? Or page number from if it's the PDF faq? EDIT: Bah, it's from the 3.0 FAQ. Odds are I'll get the argument "It doesn't apply because 3.0 is a lot different from 3.5 and things don't carry over." Which is partially true, but, screw him.
Carai_al_Caldazar 07-20-06, 07:01 AM	What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and using a +3 greataxe and a maximum Power Attack. How much damage does the barbarian deal? Can you even use the Power Attack feat while raging? What if the character is a paladin using the smite evil ability, a fighter with Weapon Specialization, or a rogue using a sneak attack? It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack (see page 123 in the Player’s Handbook). The example character has a base attack bonus of +10, so the damage bonus for a “maximum power attack” is +10. (Yes, you can use Power Attack while raging. In fact, you can use just about any feat except Expertise while raging; see the section on rage in the barbarian class description in the Players’ Handbook.) The character’s Strength score increases to 22 while he rages, giving him a +6 damage bonus for Strength, which increases to +9 because a greataxe is a two-handed weapon. The greataxe’s +3 enhancement bonus also applies to damage, so the character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+22 (10+9+3). A confirmed critical hit makes the damage 3d12+66, just as if you had rolled 1d12+22 three times. The above is correct, except for 1 thing!!!!! A greataxe is a 2handed melee weapon. "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one handed weapon wielded in two handes, instead add twice the number subtracted from you attack rolls." (PHB, page 98, Power Attack feat description). This means you do, using the above example: 1d12+32 damage ((10*2)+9+3), a critical hit does 3d12+96 damage!!! :OMG! I just hope I at the right side of the axe, when this happens... :bigeyes:
Pegasos989 07-20-06, 07:10 AM	Could you provide a link, please? Or page number from if it's the PDF faq? EDIT: Bah, it's from the 3.0 FAQ. Odds are I'll get the argument "It doesn't apply because 3.0 is a lot different from 3.5 and things don't carry over." Which is partially true, but, screw him. Everything ruled in 3.0 still applies to 3.5 unless specifically stated otherwise. I am fairly certain that this is a fact... Can someone tell where it was said?
kelvinaw273 07-20-06, 07:10 AM	Power Attack damage is the same as strength damage(you basically forget finess and give it some welly). If they multiply strength damage, then they should multiply power attack damage. QED.
FolcoTook 07-20-06, 12:18 PM	OK, it frightens me that this is even a question. The rules blatently state that... Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. Extra damage dice /= a modifier. Power Attack is a modifier (last I checked there was no dice rolling involved for the Power Attack damage). But, if they want to drag logic into it.... From the Power Attack description: Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. From the D&D glossary: Bonus - A positive modifier to a die roll... So, A) Power Attack = a bonus to damage. B) Bonus = a positive modifier, which is merely a subset of modifier (which includes negative (penalty), positive (bonus), and zero (none)). C) Modifier = something that gets multiplied in a critical. So... A = B = C, therefore A = C, or Power Attack = Something that gets multiplied in a critical. That is not a logical fallacy. It is one of the foundations of logic and math. -FT
Abulafia 07-20-06, 01:38 PM	Re: the 3.0 FAQ: Note the language on the first page of the 3.5 FAQ (found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv07192006.zip)): "in the rare instance that the answer is different between 3rd edition and the 3.5 revision, we'll bring it to your attention with a call out that says 'Revision Alert.'" The Power Attack example presented in the 3.0 FAQ stands until retracted. Which it will not be, because it is still correct. This is a little off-topic, but I'm going to have to request that you stop calling your fellow player a "rules lawyer". A rules lawyer is someone who knows the rules, not someone who argues that they should be changed. Your friend is a rules lobbyist, and should be accorded all of the respect his fellow lobbyists enjoy.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-20-06, 02:02 PM	This is a little off-topic, but I'm going to have to request that you stop calling your fellow player a "rules lawyer". A rules lawyer is someone who knows the rules, not someone who argues that they should be changed. Your friend is a rules lobbyist, and should be accorded all of the respect his fellow lobbyists enjoy. I said something like this too on the last incarnation of this thread (what are we on now, the third run? the fourth?). The thread keeps coming back though, and it never changes. I think the OP is just trolling or whining to vent a bit, and isn't even paying attention anymore, if he ever was. If this was four threads' worth of problem, he'd have pushed harder to make some change, or up and left by now, right?
GreatWyrm 07-21-06, 04:12 AM	This is the second incarnation. I'm not trolling. I wouldn't have re-posted if the thread had not been killed due to the failed software update. I apologize if I misused the term "rules lawyer". The way I've always understood the term is that it describes somone who constantly argues with the DM/other players about rule missuse. This is what said player does. He does not want rules changed. One of his favorite phrases is "you can't use logic in D&D, you have to go by the rules as written". *shrug* Sorry if I've annoyed/whatever anyone. EDIT: This incarnation has yielded information I hope I can use, though, the FAQ which I was previously unaware of (I'm blind/stupid sometimes, I swear). If they still refute it, I'll just say nuts to them and be on my merry way.
draco1119 07-21-06, 05:03 AM	This is a little off-topic, but I'm going to have to request that you stop calling your fellow player a "rules lawyer". A rules lawyer is someone who knows the rules, not someone who argues that they should be changed. Your friend is a rules lobbyist, and should be accorded all of the respect his fellow lobbyists enjoy. Or a rules lawyer could know the rules, but willingly break them. Y'know, kinda like a real lawyer...
rogue_lettuce 07-21-06, 10:37 AM	Everything ruled in 3.0 still applies to 3.5 unless specifically stated otherwise. I am fairly certain that this is a fact... Can someone tell where it was said? The PHB. EDIT: Bah, it's from the 3.0 FAQ. Odds are I'll get the argument "It doesn't apply because 3.0 is a lot different from 3.5 and things don't carry over." Which is partially true, but, screw him. Or not, since the PHB 3.5 was released. I swear, a few more comments like this and I'll find out what it's like to enter a barbarian rage.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-21-06, 11:06 AM	I swear, a few more comments like this and I'll find out what it's like to enter a barbarian rage. Lots of fun, but the incarceration time sucks. Also, lifting furniture you can't normally even move over your head and throwing it at someone is a good way to tear a muscle. :P
Abulafia 07-21-06, 11:11 AM	Or a rules lawyer could know the rules, but willingly break them. Y'know, kinda like a real lawyer...I am a lawyer. Real lawyers do not willingly break the "rules", unless they're trying to get disbarred, fired, and/or imprisoned. We may be liars, cheats, and bloodsucking societal parasites, but we are not lawbreakers. ;)
pres_man 07-21-06, 11:24 AM	Of course the easiest thing to do is be the DM, and then you can actually apply the rules correctly. :)
rogue_lettuce 07-21-06, 12:34 PM	We may be liars, cheats, and bloodsucking societal parasites Then you're breaking rules. That's what a cheat is - someone who breaks rules. Nobody said you broke LAWS. ;)