Help! My DM has anti-magic resentiments! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help! My DM has anti-magic resentiments! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sigurd van Norhusen
02-19-06, 02:04 PM Shock and horror in online play-land.
My DM goes into fits when confronted with arcane magic ("magic is overpowered", "I will show you how everyone and their shadow can cast spells", "this flavor does not fit my campaign") , and has ordered the group to either use psionics instead or play a mundane class (I don't know what he'd do with divine magic, tarring and feathering sounds likely; I guess they use the Hyperconscious godminds).
As a result, there's now a Psychic Rogue, a Psion (Telepath), some kind of Psi-Bard (he has apparently reworked the bard to use psionics, I don't know how, that is not my character), and a Warmage (he claims that these are pretty much crippled as blasters-only, so it is okay) in the group. Not that I'd usually complain, but that has gotten in my way of playing a character I'd like to play (dragon-descendant Sorcerer). He said it would be okay to play it, if I could reflavor magic to fit in the core (aka XPH/Hyperconscious) flavor.

He was quite open to me reworking the flavor (he's now descendant of a gem-dragon and a black half-dragon, but I disgress), but I still don't want to use psionics for this special char. Now I need help to reflavor magic to fit into a campaign that uses only psionics. Could someone help me with this herculean task?

Edit: Forgot to mention, yes, I am using Eschew Materials. That one was kind of obvious.
kraegor
02-19-06, 06:01 PM WTF is he smoking?

Almost every GM in the world has the opposite opinion of him. Most GM's view that Psionics are overpowered while Magic is pretty much balanced.

If you guys are all playing psions and you haven't "broken" his game yet, I should entice you to read up on some of the psionic powers and start using them. Within 2 sessions he will be embracing magic again and banning the Expanded Psionics Handbook forever.

Wierd DMs.. I just dont understand them...
Surgo
02-19-06, 06:10 PM Wow, a DM that's actually somewhat enlightened when it comes to psionics vs. magic. Anyway, ...

Could go for an incarnum-like flavor, maybe. You draw upon the life energy of sentient beings / the plane itself to create fantastic effects.
feartheinvinceblehamster
02-19-06, 06:58 PM 2 things:

1. This isn't another one of your lame-brained "Joke" threads designed to start a massive argument over, for example, Poor DM decisions regarding paladins.

and

2. Replacing Magic with Psionics is a fine and tested plan. It's worked in Dark Sun. Massively popular there.

About Magic V. Psionics. Let's put it this way.

Psionic Pun-Pun: lvl 12
Magical Pun-Pun: I believe Lvl 5.

At this point, no one is going to tell me psionics are overpowered compared to magic.
Vaelan
02-20-06, 01:11 AM Dragons exist in his world. Tell him that you cast spells the same way dragons do.

Almost every GM in the world has the opposite opinion of him. Most GM's view that Psionics are overpowered while Magic is pretty much balanced.
Your claim is ludicrous, logically fallacious, and you have presented no evidence to back it up. Nobody worth listening to thinks that either magic or psionics is balanced agaisnt the mundane portions of the game.
Sigurd van Norhusen
02-20-06, 01:34 AM 2 things:

1. This isn't another one of your lame-brained "Joke" threads designed to start a massive argument over, for example, Poor DM decisions regarding paladins.
Not so. While I honestly want to see responses to this thread (because usually it goes the other way around and many replies are among "if you don't like it, tough luck"), it is not a "joke" thread.
And the poor DM decisions weren't that poor, as much as they weren't even real decisions. I just tend to make fun of things I stronly disagree with, rather than rant. My ulcers thank me. :)

2. Replacing Magic with Psionics is a fine and tested plan. It's worked in Dark Sun. Massively popular there.
True. Forgot about Dark Sun. The fluff would be not quite useful in this campaign, though, as it is so far centered around pirates, though, I think. Time to scramble to athas.org in any case. Maybe I should just play out the Gem Dragon heritage more, but I really wanted a sorcerer.

Could go for an incarnum-like flavor, maybe. You draw upon the life energy of sentient beings / the plane itself to create fantastic effects.
That is a very good idea. Maybe it could be linked to the Inner Planes, although that would limit the magic to elemental effects, wouldn't it?
pmurray@bigpond.com
02-20-06, 02:38 AM There orta be truth-in-advertising laws for DMs that claim to run D&D games. If he's outlawing a huge chunk of the game system (which magic is), then he ain't running D&D.

Whether or not you wish to play in his game is up to you.
Dag
02-20-06, 04:03 AM Maybe it could be a world of fleas who use psionics beacuse they dont have the hands or vocal capabilities to cast magical spells. Maybe every now and then some gigantic human renegade tears loose in flea-world ripping off destructive magic and he has to be put down by the flea psionicists and that is why magic is shunned...And because fleas dont have the hands or vocal capabilities to cast magic spells.
Ut-Napishtim
02-20-06, 09:56 AM From what I've seen the current Psionics rules are fairly well balanced. It sounds to me like your DM is a Psionics fanboy who has had a long line of DM's telling him "No" to Psionics. Now that it's his turn he wants to show everyone how much fun Psionics can be, and is probably simply nerfing the alternatives to make them a more attractive option.

DM's who don't like magic aren't a singularity, I've run across a few in my day (although I'd agree that more hate Psionics than hate Magic). The only problem generally comes in that they alter it for their games with very little forethought. Magic is such an ingrained part of the game that altering one area can have a ripple effect that impacts other aspects of the mechanics you'd never suspect. Most DM's aren't up for it IME.

Allowing the Warmage is definitely a sign this dude doesn't even know what he's doing. Personally I've got nothing against Magic or Psionics - but even I don't allow Sudden Metamagics. It would've been better for him to take a more measured and consistent stand of removing the core casters and replacing them all with their Psi equivalents. If he really thought Magic was overpowered he wouldn't have let anyone near the Warmage (although I guess he could just be an idiot). I think that's just his cop-out to get you guys playing Psionic characters, which is what he really wants.

It's the DM's game dude, but it's your desision to play in it or not.
:twocents:
feartheinvinceblehamster
02-20-06, 10:01 AM Oh..wait..Your telling me he doesn't have any flavorful reason for magic not being used? He should at least come up with a decent reason people don't use magic in his campaign. I mean, there isn't divine magic in the campaign I'm making, but that's because the gods aren't there(thought of replacement already, but haven't thought of reason why their aren't gods.)

and for psi-equivelents, I believe:

Psion=wizard
Wilder=sorcereor
Psychic Warrior=Bard

Soulknife? your guess is as good as mine.
DarknessEternal
02-20-06, 01:36 PM About Magic V. Psionics. Let's put it this way.

Psionic Pun-Pun: lvl 12
Magical Pun-Pun: I believe Lvl 5.

Pun-Pun needs to take a supernatural ability from something he alters his form into. There is no way for an arcane or divine caster to do this. It only exists as a Psionic feat.
feartheinvinceblehamster
02-20-06, 02:05 PM check the CO boards. I heard that they managed to make it work.
Surgo
02-20-06, 03:04 PM Pun-Pun needs to take a supernatural ability from something he alters his form into. There is no way for an arcane or divine caster to do this. It only exists as a Psionic feat.
Incorrect. Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species allows you to take a supernatural ability from something you alter your form into.
Bikkusu
02-20-06, 05:22 PM Shock and horror in online play-land.
Now I need help to reflavor magic to fit into a campaign that uses only psionics. Could someone help me with this herculean task?I will help you with this task instead of bashing a DM I know little of about a world he has made to be fit for high psionics and low magic. I will send you my contact information via PM.
DarknessEternal
02-20-06, 05:29 PM Incorrect. Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species allows you to take a supernatural ability from something you alter your form into.
Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales also get + a million to Str for +2 LA and no racial hit dice. Savage Species is hardly a document to be used in 3.5, especially considering it isn't 3.5.
warok
02-20-06, 05:48 PM Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales also get + a million to Str for +2 LA and no racial hit dice. Savage Species is hardly a document to be used in 3.5, especially considering it isn't 3.5.

actually its 3d8 racial HD, NO LA and only +8 str

and SS does have some 3.5 rules, its not fully 3.5 i'll admit but not fully 3.0 either, its a weird 3.25 hybrid book
Corinthians
02-20-06, 05:52 PM Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales also get + a million to Str for +2 LA and no racial hit dice. Savage Species is hardly a document to be used in 3.5, especially considering it isn't 3.5.

Thankfully, wotc doesn't agree with your opinion on the subject.
Vanigo
02-21-06, 12:13 AM Your DM hates arcane magic, but he's fine with divine magic, and he's okay with pure blasting arcane casters? That's certainly a curious combination...

Anyway, what flavor explanation has the warmage come up with?
Sigurd van Norhusen
02-22-06, 01:31 AM Ut-Napishtim:
I'm not sure. But what can a Warmage be other than a blaster? I for one think that would balance itself out when this character has no versatility whatsoever. Plus, it frees the rest of the group to play something other than combat-oriented characters (like the Psibard-thingy).

feartheinvinceblehamster:
> Oh..wait..Your telling me he doesn't have any flavorful reason for magic not being used?
If there is one, I don't know of it. I guess I should go and ask him. Why should you have to use what passes as magic in DnD or make up fluff reasons to not use it, though?

Bikkusu:
> I will help you with this task instead of bashing a DM I know little of about a world he has made to be fit for high psionics and low magic. I will send you my contact information via PM.
I do not bash the DM. But thanks anyway.

Vanigo:
> Your DM hates arcane magic, but he's fine with divine magic, and he's okay with pure blasting arcane casters?
Yes, no, yes. As I said in the first post, the issue of divine magic characters has not come up with the group, but I think he would have them take the Spirituel prestige class from Hyperconscious.

> Anyway, what flavor explanation has the warmage come up with?
IIRC, it basically plays like a Wilder, only that he needs his hand-waving and yelling to manifest powers. Yes, the character has Eschew Materials, too.
Ut-Napishtim
02-22-06, 10:10 AM Ut-Napishtim:
I'm not sure. But what can a Warmage be other than a blaster? I for one think that would balance itself out when this character has no versatility whatsoever. Plus, it frees the rest of the group to play something other than combat-oriented characters (like the Psibard-thingy).

Versatility isn't the question though. According to your DM "magic is overpowered" so he bans Sorcerers and Wizards. Sudden Metamagics allow casters to make their spells more powerful - more often than not far more powerful than conventional casters (Sorcerers or Wizards without Sudden Metamagics) would be capable of at any given level without even so much as using up extra slots for them. For the Warmage the effects are indeed mostly confined to their blasting or buffing spells, but (for my game, in my opinion) the problem lies with the Sudden Metamagics. I don't allow the Warmage not because they are an "overpowered blaster" but rather simply because I don't care for Sudden Metamagics - and Sudden Metamagics are an inherent class feature of the Warmage.

Like I said, it's your DM's game so he can do what he likes - you have the choice of playing in it or not. What I'm saying is that his "magic is overpowered" claim (for his game anyway) is an obvious cop-out and not the real reason he banned core casters. The real reason is that he likes psionics, and he wants people to play psionic characters in his game. How can I say that? Because Sudden Metamagics allow casters to: 1) Cast spells that would normally be of a power level beyond their reach for conventional casters, and 2) Do so without burning any extra spell slots for it. Basically allowing them to cast the same (by your DM) "overpowered" spells at an even higher power level for free. I'm not really seeing how a character casting Fireball is overpowered to him, while one casting a Sudden Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball is not. Logic dictates that he is either lying about the rationale for his house rule, or completely ignorant of game mechanics.
:twocents:
Hariman
02-22-06, 11:38 AM Versatility isn't the question though. According to your DM "magic is overpowered" so he bans Sorcerers and Wizards. Sudden Metamagics allow casters to make their spells more powerful - more often than not far more powerful than conventional casters (Sorcerers or Wizards without Sudden Metamagics) would be capable of at any given level without even so much as using up extra slots for them. For the Warmage the effects are indeed mostly confined to their blasting or buffing spells, but (for my game, in my opinion) the problem lies with the Sudden Metamagics. I don't allow the Warmage not because they are an "overpowered blaster" but rather simply because I don't care for Sudden Metamagics - and Sudden Metamagics are an inherent class feature of the Warmage.

Like I said, it's your DM's game so he can do what he likes - you have the choice of playing in it or not. What I'm saying is that his "magic is overpowered" claim (for his game anyway) is an obvious cop-out and not the real reason he banned core casters. The real reason is that he likes psionics, and he wants people to play psionic characters in his game. How can I say that? Because Sudden Metamagics allow casters to: 1) Cast spells that would normally be of a power level beyond their reach for conventional casters, and 2) Do so without burning any extra spell slots for it. Basically allowing them to cast the same (by your DM) "overpowered" spells at an even higher power level for free. I'm not really seeing how a character casting Fireball is overpowered to him, while one casting a Sudden Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball is not. Logic dictates that he is either lying about the rationale for his house rule, or completely ignorant of game mechanics.
:twocents:

Sudden Metamagics are supposed to have the same limitations that metamagic feats have. IE: 3rd level wizard can't maximize, empower or quicken ANY of his spells. He can Sudden Still a 1st level spell.

You aren't supposed to be able to exceed your caster level/highest spell level when using sudden feats. Unless the warmage goes well into epic, he can't apply more than two or maybe 3 sudden feats to one spell.

The same restriction should be applied to Divine Metamagic. That repairs the break in the rules.

Getting back on topic: (I'll post a thread in the Magic and Spells forum about sudden/divine metamagic.)

The DM sounds... I don't know what he sounds like. It's strange to find a magic hater that likes psionics.

You could just suggest that the "Magic" that you are using is an inherited form of Psionics, unique because your character is part gem part black dragon.

You could point him to the debates/arguments online about magic v psionics.

You could even ask if he's willing to test magic v psionics via your sorcerer. (It's near guaranteed to come out even or on the side of magic.)
Ut-Napishtim
02-22-06, 01:49 PM Sudden Metamagics are supposed to have the same limitations that metamagic feats have. IE: 3rd level wizard can't maximize, empower or quicken ANY of his spells. He can Sudden Still a 1st level spell.

I must have missed the errata clarifying that then.
:thinks:
EDIT: Nope, just checked the errata - no limitations on Sudden Metamagics listed there.
:confused:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sigurd van Norhusen 02-19-06, 02:04 PM	Shock and horror in online play-land. My DM goes into fits when confronted with arcane magic ("magic is overpowered", "I will show you how everyone and their shadow can cast spells", "this flavor does not fit my campaign") , and has ordered the group to either use psionics instead or play a mundane class (I don't know what he'd do with divine magic, tarring and feathering sounds likely; I guess they use the Hyperconscious godminds). As a result, there's now a Psychic Rogue, a Psion (Telepath), some kind of Psi-Bard (he has apparently reworked the bard to use psionics, I don't know how, that is not my character), and a Warmage (he claims that these are pretty much crippled as blasters-only, so it is okay) in the group. Not that I'd usually complain, but that has gotten in my way of playing a character I'd like to play (dragon-descendant Sorcerer). He said it would be okay to play it, if I could reflavor magic to fit in the core (aka XPH/Hyperconscious) flavor. He was quite open to me reworking the flavor (he's now descendant of a gem-dragon and a black half-dragon, but I disgress), but I still don't want to use psionics for this special char. Now I need help to reflavor magic to fit into a campaign that uses only psionics. Could someone help me with this herculean task? Edit: Forgot to mention, yes, I am using Eschew Materials. That one was kind of obvious.
kraegor 02-19-06, 06:01 PM	WTF is he smoking? Almost every GM in the world has the opposite opinion of him. Most GM's view that Psionics are overpowered while Magic is pretty much balanced. If you guys are all playing psions and you haven't "broken" his game yet, I should entice you to read up on some of the psionic powers and start using them. Within 2 sessions he will be embracing magic again and banning the Expanded Psionics Handbook forever. Wierd DMs.. I just dont understand them...
Surgo 02-19-06, 06:10 PM	Wow, a DM that's actually somewhat enlightened when it comes to psionics vs. magic. Anyway, ... Could go for an incarnum-like flavor, maybe. You draw upon the life energy of sentient beings / the plane itself to create fantastic effects.
feartheinvinceblehamster 02-19-06, 06:58 PM	2 things: 1. This isn't another one of your lame-brained "Joke" threads designed to start a massive argument over, for example, Poor DM decisions regarding paladins. and 2. Replacing Magic with Psionics is a fine and tested plan. It's worked in Dark Sun. Massively popular there. About Magic V. Psionics. Let's put it this way. Psionic Pun-Pun: lvl 12 Magical Pun-Pun: I believe Lvl 5. At this point, no one is going to tell me psionics are overpowered compared to magic.
Vaelan 02-20-06, 01:11 AM	Dragons exist in his world. Tell him that you cast spells the same way dragons do. Almost every GM in the world has the opposite opinion of him. Most GM's view that Psionics are overpowered while Magic is pretty much balanced. Your claim is ludicrous, logically fallacious, and you have presented no evidence to back it up. Nobody worth listening to thinks that either magic or psionics is balanced agaisnt the mundane portions of the game.
Sigurd van Norhusen 02-20-06, 01:34 AM	2 things: 1. This isn't another one of your lame-brained "Joke" threads designed to start a massive argument over, for example, Poor DM decisions regarding paladins. Not so. While I honestly want to see responses to this thread (because usually it goes the other way around and many replies are among "if you don't like it, tough luck"), it is not a "joke" thread. And the poor DM decisions weren't that poor, as much as they weren't even real decisions. I just tend to make fun of things I stronly disagree with, rather than rant. My ulcers thank me. :) 2. Replacing Magic with Psionics is a fine and tested plan. It's worked in Dark Sun. Massively popular there. True. Forgot about Dark Sun. The fluff would be not quite useful in this campaign, though, as it is so far centered around pirates, though, I think. Time to scramble to athas.org in any case. Maybe I should just play out the Gem Dragon heritage more, but I really wanted a sorcerer. Could go for an incarnum-like flavor, maybe. You draw upon the life energy of sentient beings / the plane itself to create fantastic effects. That is a very good idea. Maybe it could be linked to the Inner Planes, although that would limit the magic to elemental effects, wouldn't it?
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-20-06, 02:38 AM	There orta be truth-in-advertising laws for DMs that claim to run D&D games. If he's outlawing a huge chunk of the game system (which magic is), then he ain't running D&D. Whether or not you wish to play in his game is up to you.
Dag 02-20-06, 04:03 AM	Maybe it could be a world of fleas who use psionics beacuse they dont have the hands or vocal capabilities to cast magical spells. Maybe every now and then some gigantic human renegade tears loose in flea-world ripping off destructive magic and he has to be put down by the flea psionicists and that is why magic is shunned...And because fleas dont have the hands or vocal capabilities to cast magic spells.
Ut-Napishtim 02-20-06, 09:56 AM	From what I've seen the current Psionics rules are fairly well balanced. It sounds to me like your DM is a Psionics fanboy who has had a long line of DM's telling him "No" to Psionics. Now that it's his turn he wants to show everyone how much fun Psionics can be, and is probably simply nerfing the alternatives to make them a more attractive option. DM's who don't like magic aren't a singularity, I've run across a few in my day (although I'd agree that more hate Psionics than hate Magic). The only problem generally comes in that they alter it for their games with very little forethought. Magic is such an ingrained part of the game that altering one area can have a ripple effect that impacts other aspects of the mechanics you'd never suspect. Most DM's aren't up for it IME. Allowing the Warmage is definitely a sign this dude doesn't even know what he's doing. Personally I've got nothing against Magic or Psionics - but even I don't allow Sudden Metamagics. It would've been better for him to take a more measured and consistent stand of removing the core casters and replacing them all with their Psi equivalents. If he really thought Magic was overpowered he wouldn't have let anyone near the Warmage (although I guess he could just be an idiot). I think that's just his cop-out to get you guys playing Psionic characters, which is what he really wants. It's the DM's game dude, but it's your desision to play in it or not. :twocents:
feartheinvinceblehamster 02-20-06, 10:01 AM	Oh..wait..Your telling me he doesn't have any flavorful reason for magic not being used? He should at least come up with a decent reason people don't use magic in his campaign. I mean, there isn't divine magic in the campaign I'm making, but that's because the gods aren't there(thought of replacement already, but haven't thought of reason why their aren't gods.) and for psi-equivelents, I believe: Psion=wizard Wilder=sorcereor Psychic Warrior=Bard Soulknife? your guess is as good as mine.
DarknessEternal 02-20-06, 01:36 PM	About Magic V. Psionics. Let's put it this way. Psionic Pun-Pun: lvl 12 Magical Pun-Pun: I believe Lvl 5. Pun-Pun needs to take a supernatural ability from something he alters his form into. There is no way for an arcane or divine caster to do this. It only exists as a Psionic feat.
feartheinvinceblehamster 02-20-06, 02:05 PM	check the CO boards. I heard that they managed to make it work.
Surgo 02-20-06, 03:04 PM	Pun-Pun needs to take a supernatural ability from something he alters his form into. There is no way for an arcane or divine caster to do this. It only exists as a Psionic feat. Incorrect. Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species allows you to take a supernatural ability from something you alter your form into.
Bikkusu 02-20-06, 05:22 PM	Shock and horror in online play-land. Now I need help to reflavor magic to fit into a campaign that uses only psionics. Could someone help me with this herculean task?I will help you with this task instead of bashing a DM I know little of about a world he has made to be fit for high psionics and low magic. I will send you my contact information via PM.
DarknessEternal 02-20-06, 05:29 PM	Incorrect. Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species allows you to take a supernatural ability from something you alter your form into. Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales also get + a million to Str for +2 LA and no racial hit dice. Savage Species is hardly a document to be used in 3.5, especially considering it isn't 3.5.
warok 02-20-06, 05:48 PM	Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales also get + a million to Str for +2 LA and no racial hit dice. Savage Species is hardly a document to be used in 3.5, especially considering it isn't 3.5. actually its 3d8 racial HD, NO LA and only +8 str and SS does have some 3.5 rules, its not fully 3.5 i'll admit but not fully 3.0 either, its a weird 3.25 hybrid book
Corinthians 02-20-06, 05:52 PM	Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales also get + a million to Str for +2 LA and no racial hit dice. Savage Species is hardly a document to be used in 3.5, especially considering it isn't 3.5. Thankfully, wotc doesn't agree with your opinion on the subject.
Vanigo 02-21-06, 12:13 AM	Your DM hates arcane magic, but he's fine with divine magic, and he's okay with pure blasting arcane casters? That's certainly a curious combination... Anyway, what flavor explanation has the warmage come up with?
Sigurd van Norhusen 02-22-06, 01:31 AM	Ut-Napishtim: I'm not sure. But what can a Warmage be other than a blaster? I for one think that would balance itself out when this character has no versatility whatsoever. Plus, it frees the rest of the group to play something other than combat-oriented characters (like the Psibard-thingy). feartheinvinceblehamster: > Oh..wait..Your telling me he doesn't have any flavorful reason for magic not being used? If there is one, I don't know of it. I guess I should go and ask him. Why should you have to use what passes as magic in DnD or make up fluff reasons to not use it, though? Bikkusu: > I will help you with this task instead of bashing a DM I know little of about a world he has made to be fit for high psionics and low magic. I will send you my contact information via PM. I do not bash the DM. But thanks anyway. Vanigo: > Your DM hates arcane magic, but he's fine with divine magic, and he's okay with pure blasting arcane casters? Yes, no, yes. As I said in the first post, the issue of divine magic characters has not come up with the group, but I think he would have them take the Spirituel prestige class from Hyperconscious. > Anyway, what flavor explanation has the warmage come up with? IIRC, it basically plays like a Wilder, only that he needs his hand-waving and yelling to manifest powers. Yes, the character has Eschew Materials, too.
Ut-Napishtim 02-22-06, 10:10 AM	Ut-Napishtim: I'm not sure. But what can a Warmage be other than a blaster? I for one think that would balance itself out when this character has no versatility whatsoever. Plus, it frees the rest of the group to play something other than combat-oriented characters (like the Psibard-thingy). Versatility isn't the question though. According to your DM "magic is overpowered" so he bans Sorcerers and Wizards. Sudden Metamagics allow casters to make their spells more powerful - more often than not far more powerful than conventional casters (Sorcerers or Wizards without Sudden Metamagics) would be capable of at any given level without even so much as using up extra slots for them. For the Warmage the effects are indeed mostly confined to their blasting or buffing spells, but (for my game, in my opinion) the problem lies with the Sudden Metamagics. I don't allow the Warmage not because they are an "overpowered blaster" but rather simply because I don't care for Sudden Metamagics - and Sudden Metamagics are an inherent class feature of the Warmage. Like I said, it's your DM's game so he can do what he likes - you have the choice of playing in it or not. What I'm saying is that his "magic is overpowered" claim (for his game anyway) is an obvious cop-out and not the real reason he banned core casters. The real reason is that he likes psionics, and he wants people to play psionic characters in his game. How can I say that? Because Sudden Metamagics allow casters to: 1) Cast spells that would normally be of a power level beyond their reach for conventional casters, and 2) Do so without burning any extra spell slots for it. Basically allowing them to cast the same (by your DM) "overpowered" spells at an even higher power level for free. I'm not really seeing how a character casting Fireball is overpowered to him, while one casting a Sudden Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball is not. Logic dictates that he is either lying about the rationale for his house rule, or completely ignorant of game mechanics. :twocents:
Hariman 02-22-06, 11:38 AM	Versatility isn't the question though. According to your DM "magic is overpowered" so he bans Sorcerers and Wizards. Sudden Metamagics allow casters to make their spells more powerful - more often than not far more powerful than conventional casters (Sorcerers or Wizards without Sudden Metamagics) would be capable of at any given level without even so much as using up extra slots for them. For the Warmage the effects are indeed mostly confined to their blasting or buffing spells, but (for my game, in my opinion) the problem lies with the Sudden Metamagics. I don't allow the Warmage not because they are an "overpowered blaster" but rather simply because I don't care for Sudden Metamagics - and Sudden Metamagics are an inherent class feature of the Warmage. Like I said, it's your DM's game so he can do what he likes - you have the choice of playing in it or not. What I'm saying is that his "magic is overpowered" claim (for his game anyway) is an obvious cop-out and not the real reason he banned core casters. The real reason is that he likes psionics, and he wants people to play psionic characters in his game. How can I say that? Because Sudden Metamagics allow casters to: 1) Cast spells that would normally be of a power level beyond their reach for conventional casters, and 2) Do so without burning any extra spell slots for it. Basically allowing them to cast the same (by your DM) "overpowered" spells at an even higher power level for free. I'm not really seeing how a character casting Fireball is overpowered to him, while one casting a Sudden Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball is not. Logic dictates that he is either lying about the rationale for his house rule, or completely ignorant of game mechanics. :twocents: Sudden Metamagics are supposed to have the same limitations that metamagic feats have. IE: 3rd level wizard can't maximize, empower or quicken ANY of his spells. He can Sudden Still a 1st level spell. You aren't supposed to be able to exceed your caster level/highest spell level when using sudden feats. Unless the warmage goes well into epic, he can't apply more than two or maybe 3 sudden feats to one spell. The same restriction should be applied to Divine Metamagic. That repairs the break in the rules. Getting back on topic: (I'll post a thread in the Magic and Spells forum about sudden/divine metamagic.) The DM sounds... I don't know what he sounds like. It's strange to find a magic hater that likes psionics. You could just suggest that the "Magic" that you are using is an inherited form of Psionics, unique because your character is part gem part black dragon. You could point him to the debates/arguments online about magic v psionics. You could even ask if he's willing to test magic v psionics via your sorcerer. (It's near guaranteed to come out even or on the side of magic.)
Ut-Napishtim 02-22-06, 01:49 PM	Sudden Metamagics are supposed to have the same limitations that metamagic feats have. IE: 3rd level wizard can't maximize, empower or quicken ANY of his spells. He can Sudden Still a 1st level spell. I must have missed the errata clarifying that then. :thinks: EDIT: Nope, just checked the errata - no limitations on Sudden Metamagics listed there. :confused: