Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sneak_Blast 01-29-06, 08:11 PM	Okay. Well here is my situation: I am about a month away from this campaign (lvls 10-20) with a guy who has never DMed before. He has every COMMONER with about 5-10 fighter levels due to his wanting to have everything to be overpowered. Not only that, but he said he is "completely remaking the SRD". He wants to do this for several reasons. We have kinda determined that the DM can do ANYTHING that they want, so he is taking this to the next level and remaking lots of D&D rules. Another reason is that I know LOTS of the rules. I tend to win almost everytime there is a rules arguement because I actually know the stuff, so the next time a rules arguement comes up, he will just say, "Due to my newly made rules, I am correct. Period." or that in a less elogant phrasing. What is worse is that he will only tell us the rules that pertain to our characters directly. I really don't want to get out of this group since it is the only one I have, and I REALLY like dnd. Help me! Any advice is welcome. :(
Mock26 01-29-06, 08:42 PM	You only have two options. The first is to accept the changes that the DM has made and play in his campaign (just be sure to request a complete set of rules changes beforehand so you know what to expect and so that you know the DM is not making up rules on the spot). The second option is to not play with him. I know that a ton of people will jump in and start to argue that the DM can't or shouldn't change the rules and all sorts of similar arguments but that is really beside the point. The fact is that he IS changing the rules. It seems obvious that you won't be able to convince him not to change the rules so it again boils down to just two options, either accept the changes and play or don't play with him as the DM. Good luck! Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
shadowfox628 01-29-06, 08:50 PM	Your DM obviously is crazy.... And doesn't know the difference between a fighter, warrior, and barbarian. Commoners don't have levels of fighting because, well, they're commoners. If they used to, or are currently, in the town guard, then they would be warriors. Fighters are more along the lines of what archers used to be. Push them in at a young age, train them for a decade or so, and they come out as an archer (compaered to the early muskets: shove an idiot into a line, and 3 days later he can aim, shoot, and reload). The same thing with Fighters. They're tought many things. They fight with style, not brute force. So, commoners (unless really old (i.e. "retired old")) wouldn't have fighter levels.... That aside, the DM is absolutely nuts in the "I'm rewriting everything." Hey, I've made minor alterations (I forced Flaws on characters because, well, the Wizards were doing more melee/ranged combat than spellcasting), but... He's essentially saying "I'm going to tell you the basics, and leave everything else a secret... As well as making up rules to screw you guys over!" The campain shouldn't be about being overpowered.... Well, it's really about the individual PC on that whole "overpowered" thing (I would be classified as "Munchkin," due to my ability to stretch everything out, search through about every book for some almost worthless, obscure item [Grappling Hook Crossbow, anyone?], and that I take advantage of just about any loophole presented to me), but if the DM encourages it... That's nuts. Look, what he's suggesting is, in a sense, this: Elf: "I light my sunrod and open the door." DM: "When you open the door, a huge gust of wind blows out your sunrod." Elf: "... Sunrods last for 6 hours." DM: "Nope, because I say so." Elf: "Ok, but it's magical." DM: "It was a magical wind." ----- Or....: DM: "You've fallen into an underground tunnel system. It's pitch black, and you hear footsteps." Elf: "I use my sunrod." DM: "You have none left." Elf: "But, I only used..." DM: "YOU HAVE NONE LEFT BECAUSE I SAID SO!" Drow: "I look around. WHat do I see?" DM: "Nothing, it's pitch black." Drow: "But I have Darkvision as a racial ability." DM: "No you don't. I changed that." Drow: "Why didn't you tell me?" DM: "I didn't think you needed to know." ----- ...... How'd I come up with that? Anyway, that's essentially what he's planning (or at least that's how I interpret it). He has to let you in on EVERY rule he changes, or else it's like a teacher giving you 10 Vocabulary words, and then giving you a test on 30 vocab. words, none of which are ones she taught you... And they're in a different language! So.... Your DM has gone nuts. I say the best thing to do (since you seems you want to be part of it) is to have him give you a mist of all alterations, because if he doesn't, then he's being a bad DM who only wants to kill you off.
FreeTheSlaves 01-29-06, 09:22 PM	I really don't want to get out of this group since it is the only one I have, and I REALLY like dnd. Help me! Any advice is welcome. :( Become the dm. Run an alternate adventure every second week & use the RAW, after a couple of sessions of his rubbish the players will be default only want to play d&d. Being the dm is work, not as much as your friend claims to be doing (I'd guess he'd be doing the ad hoc thing which is easy, lazy & generally sucks), but bad dm's need to be shown how it is done.
sneak_Blast 01-29-06, 09:26 PM	I have seem this in a couple places, and I know it is probably a newb question, but what does "RAW" stand for?
imperialjunkie 01-29-06, 09:29 PM	Rules As Written. Everyone is a noob at some point. No shame in it. ;)
Mock26 01-29-06, 09:34 PM	Become the dm. Run an alternate adventure every second week & use the RAW, after a couple of sessions of his rubbish the players will be default only want to play d&d. Being the dm is work, not as much as your friend claims to be doing (I'd guess he'd be doing the ad hoc thing which is easy, lazy & generally sucks), but bad dm's need to be shown how it is done. This is a good suggestion! However, don't be rude, crude, abbrasive, or mean towards your DM. He is doing what he considers to be a good idea. If you ridicule him for it and start to DM on occasion you will have only created an enemy and that is never good. If you do start to DM every so often and he says something along the lines of, "Well, that's not how I do it in my campaign," be very polite and say, "Yes, I understand, but this is my campaign and this is how I run it." Trying to subvert the regular DM can be a very risky task because it is too easy for it to backfire and you may lose a friend. Personally, I don't think he is crazy for trying to rewrite the entire rules system, so long as he is not doing it to make sure you don't know the rules! As I stated in my first post, be sure to request a copy of all the changes he makes. If he doesn't want to provide you a copy then he is obviously doing it out of spite and you should tell him that it is unfair for him to require you to play a game where you don't know the rules. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
FreeTheSlaves 01-29-06, 10:40 PM	This is a good suggestion! However, don't be rude, crude, abbrasive, or mean towards your DM. A good point to be said. I personally am abrupt & to the point because in the past for far too long I've suffered the whims of those with game design aspirations without the requisite aptitude. There is no reason to pontificate or point out errors, merely following the RAW pretty much guarantees a better game than most homebrew concoctions.
sneak_Blast 01-29-06, 11:27 PM	Well, one of the reasons why I believe he did it (through my own investigating) is because he read in the heroes of horror that it is good to have suspense. He thought this meant out of game as well as in game, so he changes all rules... gives him reason not to let us see, but now, he has "put TOO much effort" into doing this that he can't turn back now. I wouldn't want to put a ton of effort into something then find out that I have to do it all over or just throw it away, but still... I'll talk to him and see if he is willing to let us players see his new rules, but I don't think I could get him to do so. :( Personally, I like to go by RAW. I figure that the WOTC people have put more time and effort into revising and un-cheapifying the rules than most players or DMs could, so I try to stick to their rules and carefully evaluate any that I may make before putting them into effect. Then with my new dm... it bugs me. Thanks for the advice. I'll get back to you on this.
Feor 01-30-06, 12:01 AM	If he's rewritting the SRD, then you're no longer playing D&D, get out and find another group, or find out if your fellow players are equally upset about the situation, then throw th DM out and restart with another DM.
Callista 01-30-06, 09:36 AM	I see rules-lawyerish tendencies in you... make sure to root those out before you do anything else. I should know--I have a leaning towards rules-lawyering myself. It's not all bad, mind you; knowing the rules is a great basis to playing well, strategically. But rules aren't the be-all and end-all of D&D. That said, if your DM is truly "rewriting the SRDs", then you should be let in on the changes. It seems to me like he's just being childish--you (and maybe the other players?) know the rules very well, and use them to kill his bad guys. Maybe he's still got a "DM versus players" complex, and thinks he'd rather have his bad guys kill your PCs (which isn't supposed to happen very often at all). Or maybe he's overreacting to a rules lawyer--you or somebody else--who's been annoying him lately. I concur with the people who said you should try DMing, yourself.
Ut-Napishtim 01-30-06, 09:52 AM	I would say running your own game by the RAW sounds like the best option presented here. Most DM's would relish a chance to actually play the game. If this guy doesn't then he's obviously power-tripping and can't stand not being in control (the rules being meddlesome afterthoughts that keep him from having absolute power). If the "Well in my game... becomes a problem, politely tell him you're going to start deducting 100 xp from his character every time he says it. If he can't deal with someone else having the big chair that's his problem. As long as you're being fair and going by the RAW he can't have any legitimate complaints. Who knows, maybe he'll actually learn the real rules and start bringing his own game more in line with them. If not, at least you and the others will have your game every other week.
High Octane 01-30-06, 11:05 AM	First off, the dea of D&D is that the adventurers are usually stronger than most people, but not everyone. After all, a real world mercenary, even a fairly new one, will beat the snot out of your average Joe Schmoe, but not necessarily a police officer or a Navy SEAL. Why do you know they are that level unless you attacked them anyway? The reason that commoner hit points and armor class are hardly important is that most adventurers, even the evil ones, dont usually start killing commoners. Anyway, he is a new DM you say? Well my guess is he has this game confused with some video game where everything hits for 9999 and everything has 120,000 hit points. He clearly is arrogant since he thinks he can improve on the system without having DM'd before. Thats like saying "Ive never driven, built, or worked on a car before, but I bet I can make a better one than everyone else!" Even the best car designers still look to old models for their base. They make modifications that improve or alter the car to their taste, but in the end the car still has the same general shape. If he wants to make a whole new system, he should have some good experience with the present ones first. Get him off his power trip. "So you think your system is better? Better than a game that was created by a group of gamers 30 years ago and has since then faced 30 years of nationwide play testing and revision by a company of people whose actual job is gamemaking?" I agree with the sentiments of "DM it yourself." From the sound of things he seems to get off on the "Im the DM so what I say goes!" That is the single thing no DM should ever enjoy. A DM's ability to say "Cause I'm the DM and I say so." Is a lot like a police officer's ability to shoot you in the head. He should be willing to do it if he has to, but he shouldn't enjoy it in the slightest. In fact it should wrack his conscience with guilt.
nastynate 01-30-06, 12:37 PM	I suspect in this case the OP knows the rules very well, and the new DM doesn't know them well enough. Which causes tension, because the new DM sets up his encounter expecting it to work out as he planned, and the OP corrects him, which completely ruins the intended effect of the encounter. The new DM then decides he doesn't like the way some rules work, becuase your character can abuse them, be he hasn't yet learned how to counter you within the RAW. So he decides he's going to change the rules so that he can make his campaign work the way he wants. Then he thinks, "hmm, what if the players find loopholes in my rules? I just won't let them know any rules that don't pertain directly to their character; how can they screw me then? We'll be on an even playing field." I think this DM isn't actually trying to screw the OP over. I think the OP is too experienced for an inexperienced DM. He can't learn as he goes, becuase his veteran players lay the smack down whenever he makes an error, and steam-roll the enemies. This DM however, needs more experience with the game rules as they are, before he should consider changes. Any changes he makes might seem like good ideas, until he sees them in action. The best thing you could do Sneak_Blast, is team up with him. Be his side-kick DM. Do some simple minature combat on your battle grids (outside the gaming sessions). Show him how to set up situations where you can flank and sneak attack. Show him the benefit of reach, attacks of opprtunity, and special combat maneuvers. Teach him how to use metagamic feats to their advantage. Show him your tricks! Show him what you do, why you do it, the benefits of your techniques, and the drawbacks too. This DM needs some help, and all it seems like all you've given him is headaches and criticism. He could end up being a really good DM; he just wasn't ready to run games with players of your calibur. Give him a hand. :D
rykit 01-30-06, 03:17 PM	Okay. Well here is my situation: I am about a month away from this campaign (lvls 10-20) with a guy who has never DMed before. He has every COMMONER with about 5-10 fighter levels due to his wanting to have everything to be overpowered. Not only that, but he said he is "completely remaking the SRD". He wants to do this for several reasons. We have kinda determined that the DM can do ANYTHING that they want, so he is taking this to the next level and remaking lots of D&D rules. What is worse is that he will only tell us the rules that pertain to our characters directly. :( Beefing up some of the towns folk isn't a horrible idea. If created as per the DMG any town would be owned by a 10th level character. I wouldn't worry about this to much unless you plan to cause a lot of trouble in town. As for the rules changes, altering the rules isn't a bad thing, but the players should know about any rule changes which pretain to them, this would be just about anything that has to do with combat, skill checks, feats or special abilities, item creation, magic items, and yeah just about anything else in the game. About the only thing you as a player shouldn't be aware of would be things like changes to monsters (which could be learned about by the correct skill checks, special magics (but thouse could be learned about by the correct skill checks), and thats about it. I've actually concidered rewriting many of the rules in D&D, but doing so would be a massive undertaking. Any rule you alter has consiquences which run through the entire game. So I would caution your DM against making large changes and just try making some small changes first and see how they effect things. Rykit
Bruunwald 01-30-06, 04:11 PM	Your dilemma is unfortunate. It's also a very good example of why it doesn't do to constantly harangue, argue with, correct, harass, belittle or force knowledge on others. Being right may be fun, but it does have its consequences. Now you are so right somebody is making sure you won't be anymore. That's silly on his part, but if you didn't create an unreasonable situation you wouldn't be facing an unreasonable solution. I would recommend being a bit more gentle with your next DM when presenting your expansive knowledge. In your words, you have a tendency to "win" when an argument comes up. If you had maybe chosen to "advise" or "clear up," rather than pursuing the "win" things might have turned out differently.
sneak_Blast 01-30-06, 07:19 PM	Its not that my future dm doesn't know the basics or anything, but on misc stuff that most people aren't sure of, he says something. I know what the real answer is. He says he is right. I know I am right. I show him where the rule is. He gets ****** and mutters. Now, he remakes rules, and I think it is so he can say, "You are wrong. I don't have to show you where in my new SRD you are, but you are because I revised the rules."
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-30-06, 07:49 PM	Your dilemma is unfortunate. It's also a very good example of why it doesn't do to constantly harangue, argue with, correct, harass, belittle or force knowledge on others. Being right may be fun, but it does have its consequences. Now you are so right somebody is making sure you won't be anymore. That's silly on his part, but if you didn't create an unreasonable situation you wouldn't be facing an unreasonable solution. Yup, thats the kind of things that happen when you over rules lawyer a DM. Eventually he just gets sick of that crap and beats you down with godlike power.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-31-06, 12:33 AM	Its not that my future dm doesn't know the basics or anything, but on misc stuff that most people aren't sure of, he says something. I know what the real answer is. He says he is right. I know I am right. I show him where the rule is. He gets ****** and mutters. Now, he remakes rules, and I think it is so he can say, "You are wrong. I don't have to show you where in my new SRD you are, but you are because I revised the rules." If this is the case, I just would not play. How do you play a game when you do not know the rules?
bartleby42 01-31-06, 02:06 AM	Its not that my future dm doesn't know the basics or anything, but on misc stuff that most people aren't sure of, he says something. I know what the real answer is. He says he is right. I know I am right. I show him where the rule is. He gets ****** and mutters. Now, he remakes rules, and I think it is so he can say, "You are wrong. I don't have to show you where in my new SRD you are, but you are because I revised the rules." Well Sneak, I guess the question is what is this "misc stuff"? If it is, say, how trips work, you have a very vaild point, and your DM is completely wrong. ex. DM- The Ogre hits at your legs, what's your touch AC? Player- 15 DM- Okay he trips you and you take 12 damage. P- What? DM- He triped you. P- That's not how trips work, there is a whole system for them DM- Nahh I like this more P- But its right here in the PHB.... DM- So you spend your round bemoaning your fate, player 2 what do you do? If it's rules on quicksand, and it goes more like this DM- Suddenly everything flashes white briefly then it goes dark, you realize your in quicksand. Let's roll inititive. P- But I didn't get to make one survial roll! It's a DC 8 survial check to avoid quicksand DM- You are in quicksand, this is how we are doing this. I'm going to need swim checks from everyone too, the DC is 15. P- No! Your wrong the DC is 10 to avoid going down and I made my survial roll to avoid the quicksand. DM- Come off it! And give me your swim check result. P- It's right here on page 76!!!! DM- Look I'm trying to run this encounter. P- But your wrong! Read this. DM- Fine you win, I"m wrong. Also I'm going to be rewriting large portions of the rules, I don't think you need to know how to handle rock slides so I'm not telling you the mechanic I'm using. Then your DM is totaly justified. PCs knowing the DMG and MM cover to cover is bad. I don't know them cover to cover and I'm running a game. It takes thrill and suprise out of exotic situations if they are familiar to the players.
Feor 01-31-06, 09:02 AM	Except that the PHB specifically says that all players should probably own & familiarize themselves with the PHB, DMG, and MM. A DM who completely disregards the rules for no apparant reason just because he wants to be able to tell his players that he's right and they're wrong is going way over the line. In your quicksand encounter all the DM is doing is pulling numbers out of his butt because he was too lazy to look it up, if he'd been a good DM the response as soon as the player mentioned the survival check would have been something like "Oh, there's actually rules for quicksand? Lemme see those." If he was determined to use those numbers to make it more difficult for the players he could have said something like "Suddenly everything flashes white briefly then it goes dark, you realize you've fallen into some well hidden quicksand. Let's roll initiative." If the player then says he could have made his survival check the DM can respond "No, it was completely and purposely hidden, you had no idea it was coming up." But changing the Swim DC would still be just abusing his power.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-31-06, 09:37 AM	But changing the Swim DC would still be just abusing his power. perhaps it is dire, or magical quick sand? Maybe there is a particularily strong down pull?
Feor 01-31-06, 10:04 AM	maybe, but he should still express that they feel some force other than just quicksand pulling them down.
sneak_Blast 01-31-06, 01:33 PM	Generally, the "discussions" about rules that my FUTURE dm doesn't know go like this. (We PvPing in a tournament) Me: Okay, I cast Murderous Mist on your wizard. You need to make a reflex save or be blinded and take 2d6 damage. DC is 27. Him: I fail the save, so... I blinded now. I move 30ft. towards your character and cast power word kill on him. You lose. Me: Umm, power word kill requires that you target the creature you want to use it on, and you are blinded, so you can't (he is 20ft away). Him: Yes I can! And then you lose.... Me: Uggg.... here, look. (I show him where it says that) Him: *grumble grumble grumble* *Note: He has not DMed yet so I do not know what those conversations will be like.
kam_Islash 01-31-06, 03:44 PM	Congratulations, you're being DMed by Blizzard Entertainment. Because only they would be dumb enough to make commoners into tenth level fighters and call it "balance".
Cifer 01-31-06, 04:57 PM	Congratulations, you're being DMed by Blizzard Entertainment. Because only they would be dumb enough to make commoners into tenth level fighters and call it "balance". ...whatever. @Topic There is a way you will not manage to get through this. This way consists of arrogance. Tell your DM in kind words what your problems are and seek a solution you are both happy with. Also better speak about that "DM is always right and can do what he wants"-ruling, since it IS going to be problematic. If you can't argue with him about it - go with the campaign and see whether it works or leave.
RogerWilco 01-31-06, 04:59 PM	If he has not DMed yet, wait untill he does. Only complain after at least 6 sessions. If he made rules changes, ask him to give those to you. If he refuses, have your rogue cast spells, your barabarian sneak attack, and your wizard use a greatsword. Tell him you thought it was o.k. according to his rules.
da beast 01-31-06, 05:15 PM	Well, one of the reasons why I believe he did it (through my own investigating) is because he read in the heroes of horror that it is good to have suspense. He thought this meant out of game as well as in game, so he changes all rules... gives him reason not to let us see, but now, he has "put TOO much effort" into doing this that he can't turn back now. I wouldn't want to put a ton of effort into something then find out that I have to do it all over or just throw it away, but still... I'll talk to him and see if he is willing to let us players see his new rules, but I don't think I could get him to do so. :( New DMs shouldn't be alowed to read HoH! The heros of horror is meant strictly for instilling horror and should only be used when making a horror adventure or making the commitment to an entire horror campaign. (In my opinion.) Explain to your dm that chaning the rules won't create suspense they will create chaos and frustration. The PCs should have a basic idia of how things work in the world (Oh ok I can see in the dark no need to bring a tourch) they shouldn't take it as far as metagaming (I can see exactly 30 feet in the dark, I won't spend the gp for a tourch but will instead save it for 3 leavels and get a +10 sword of uberness! Mahahaha!) if you don't know this than you're charicter would effectivly be an idiot (How could you not know how far you could see?)