Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suzaku455 02-13-07, 11:04 PM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice.
CowMasterTrojan 02-13-07, 11:20 PM	Theres not much we can do to help. Its the DM's decision. Unless you can change his mind, you have to take them. So you can either make a uber character that is broken and show him why he should have let you reroll, or you can play a bard. He'll never notice a problem with the latter.
BW0222 02-13-07, 11:25 PM	Suzaku455, The key reason for point-buy. Stick with your guns. Your stats alone make you a LA +1 or +2 over the other players. You know that within a few sessions, you're character is going to dominate the table. Either you'll be bored not playing up to your potential or the other players will get resentful as you walk through encounter. At some point, your DM will scale up encounters to match you, and others will get killed in the cross-fire. If your DM won't allow you to do this, explain the situation to the other players and offer to just subtract 4 from each stat. If the DM won't budge -- and the other players should be screaming murder at this point -- make a commoner up for a couple of levels. You might also want to make him mute, missing an eye, peg-leg, etc., etc. to start leveling things out. Or perhaps play a blind monk, a cleric sworn to never hurt another living creature, etc. Or, make a wizard and as soon as you get XP and gold -- use all the gold to make scrolls. Sell the scrolls at half price, use that gold to make more scrolls, etc. repeat until your gold runs out. Keep doing this until you when the group is say 5th, you are 3rd and broke. This approximate the LA +2 that you normally have.
j_gunder 02-13-07, 11:27 PM	High stats don't necessarily mean that you're going to steal the show...they just mean that you'll be more consistent at what you do and have consistently higher checks. It's not that big a deal...yeah, a +4 is much nicer than a +2 or +1...especially in multiple stats...but not game-breaking. You'll just be the backbone of the party, early on...get used to them leaning on you. If I were you, I would use your luck to your advantage and choose a class that benefits most from having multiple high stats--bards, paladins, rangers and monks are probably the best candidates. That, and be generous early on with things such as healing and backing up the weaker guys...you're not stealing the show, you're just taking hits for them because you're a little tougher and they'll likely appreciate you for it. By level 3 or so, high stats don't mean as much (as access to buff spells becomes pretty standard by then), so things will work themselves out. You'll always have a slight edge...but not anything that you or the other players should worry about. You're just lucky...live with it.
Keiichi_m 02-13-07, 11:29 PM	Take voluntary penalties, or just try to down play it. play a fighter with high mental states and drop your low...er ones into physical. distribute skills as wide spread as you can so as to have less ranks in each. Play a more suppottive character then main central character (I have a friend who has a crazy IQ and could easily be the leader/tactition, and is good enough to roll play as large as life as he want's but even if he rolls solid 18's he always plays a kind of quite back seat character to try and put a focus on everyone else.)
Salla 02-13-07, 11:37 PM	You're playing a fighter. That's a significant enough drawback that you don't have to be worried about stealing the show. By about 3rd to 5th level, the spellcasters will have it all over you, high stats or not.
johnkretzer 02-13-07, 11:43 PM	You won't out shine the others that much(unless they totaly don't know how to make characters). Stats aren't that big of a deal. You got lucky go for it.
Salla 02-13-07, 11:47 PM	Another option I'd see few DMs arguing with ... instead of re-rolling, ask if you can simply voluntarily lower them ... and then, he can offer that to anybody else. :) But, yeah, BW has it right. This is why point buy is teh win. :)
TheChilliGod 02-14-07, 01:00 AM	Or, make a wizard and as soon as you get XP and gold -- use all the gold to make scrolls. Sell the scrolls at half price, use that gold to make more scrolls, etc. repeat until your gold runs out. Keep doing this until you when the group is say 5th, you are 3rd and broke. This approximate the LA +2 that you normally have.Wait, so you craft at half-price, and sell at half-price... That just means that you didn't lose or gain any money at all, doesn't it? Besides, he's a fighter. :P I suggest that you play this fighter to its full extent, and wipe out everything that comes near you in one or two swipes. Eventually, the DM will see that you're too strong, and will either kill your fighter through DM fiat, or accept your offer to lower stats. It's the DM's rules, but you just have to be clever about how you persuade him to see your point of view. Technically, you're not doing a thing wrong. Either way, I wouldn't suggest you get too attached to this fighter, as a precautionary measure. ;)
fullmetal80110 02-14-07, 02:01 AM	Hehe this SCREAMS crusading paladin! Go over to the char op boards tell them what you want to play and show them your stats, build up an insane character and just slaughter, for your religion of course.... After awhile of the same "Thousands of orcs you say, well we'll just have to fix that" your dm might let you change your character.
Krusk 02-14-07, 02:19 AM	Personally with this situation i would ask to switch classes, and play a bard. now youve got amazing stats, but are more of a support hero. So you can be as amazing as you want, but the focus in combat is more slanted towards others. If your set on fighter, ask to lower your stats, not reroll. Dm can offer that to anyone. -salla- is a good option. Or you could always pick a really suboptimal weapon and bae the character off that. Now youve lowered your power, by spending feats to make a crappy weapon good.
Reversefigure4 02-14-07, 02:24 AM	Or you could always pick a really suboptimal weapon and bae the character off that. Now youve lowered your power, by spending feats to make a crappy weapon good. Another vote for this. You can get something fun off this. A dagger thrower? A TWF with handaxes? Cross class skill ranks into something unusual or something the group doesn't have - Speak Language, maybe, or Survival. Get a good, oddball character out of it.
Drag0nUL 02-14-07, 03:47 AM	Kobold fighter?:D If you want to play a fighter with these stats it won't be much of a problem. Fighter usually needs only 2 high attributes (str and con). dex is limited by armor, and as for wis, int and cha, it's good to have them high, but not mandatory(I don't see how a 17 cha fighter is much better than a 8 cha one). These stats begin to be game-breaking if you decide to multiclass into a caster or such or if you want to play a MAD class(like paladin or monk).
Yokomohoyo 02-14-07, 04:07 AM	Since your a fighter just start taking bard levels when you level up hahahahahaha. That should balance everything out ^_^.
Novabomb 02-14-07, 09:13 AM	He did say he is playing a fighter. If you really feel the urge to nerf yourself, just mono-class the entire campaign. Stats do not dominate the game. Additionally enjoy the stats while you can. Eventually the reverse situation will happen to you.
Bopple 02-14-07, 09:33 AM	Why reroll? There are bunch of suboptimal classes, combos or archetypes out there. It's the very time to play them. For example, Samurai, Soulknife, Healer, or ect... Or how about Half-orc warlock, Halfling barbarian, Mongrel sorcerer, or ect... ;)
BW0222 02-14-07, 10:08 AM	Folks, For all those saying that such massive differences in stats don't lead to dominating the game... First, the MM and DMG happily give LA from racing having uneven stat increases. If you average 15-18 ability points higher than other players... you are honestly LA +3 or so. Second, anyone playing say RPGA games immediately recognizes the power difference between say a 28 point buy and a 32 point buy. This guy is using the equivalent to a 84 point buy and his friends are using a 45 or so point buy. Third, just common sense says that things will never even themselves out. If you average 3+ ability points higher on each stat, you know that equates to +1.5 to hit, +1.5 to damage, +1.5 to a skill checks, +1.5 to AC, +1.5 to all saving throws, +1.5 x level more hit points, 6 more skill points + 1.5 per level, etc., etc. Another player would likely have to be two levels higher to have abilities which even this out - higher BAB to make up for your strength, more skill points to make up for your ability adjustments, higher saves to make up for yours, etc. You'd honestly be roughly equal to a 3rd-level character if you somehow averaged out hit points, attack roles, damage, saves, skills, etc. And folks will never catch up to you in terms of power as you will always be ahead of them since your numbers will always be higher. Forth, we all know the CR system is based on a 25 point buy. We know beyond a 32 point buy it starts breaking down. This guy has an 84 point buy? We know that the DM is going to have to put in encounters significantly above normal CR in order to keep the encounters challenging. If the other characters are so far behind in LA, any challenge tough enough to challenge him could slaughter them outright -- besides the fact that we know that the LA characters do not fit well into the CR system and typically cause unbalanced fights to start with. Fifth, even the original poster is concerned with the potential of dominating the game. Most others know of this from direct experience. Now, could the player not dominate? Sure. He could be a really bad player, nerf himself, not show up for a lot of games and fall behind on XP, or pick a class/race/setting where his character is nerfed. Take ranks in swim and profession sailor in a desert campaign, multi-class trying to be unoptimal. Sure. For those saying "Go for it", "Next time you might get low stats", or even "Max a character out to show your DM", etc. Get real. Who wants to spend a six month or year long campaign dominating the game just to say "I told you so." when it becomes so obvious to everyone that this was a bad idea? Or worse... see the campaign end in three months because other players aren't enjoying it? Who thinks creating campaigns where different people randomly dominate the game for months at an time is fun? Gee... that way only 4 of the 5 players are bored every night? Don't worry, next campaign, it might be a different 4 people! Honestly, the OP is taking a mature attitude towards the game. Experience has shown us that certain things tend to cause problems. He has identified that massive differences in ability scores will (typically) lead to that player dominating the game. Wizards saw this in 3.0 play testing and we've all seen it in games. Hence point buy on the RPGA games. There is nothing wrong with a player recognizing this... even if his DM can't see the light... and taking steps to avoid it. A campaign is a serious commitment in time and effort by a lot of people. You can't control everything -- bad luck, momentary dumb decisions, etc. -- but some things you can take a good look at the starting characters and say "Is this going to cause problems?" Same with choosing not to play a min-max'd druid in a group of roleplaying bards and monks, not being a CN rogue when you have a paladin, not being a racist elf in a group of dwarves, etc. Not playing a female character in a group that isn't mature enough to handle it. If you are going to put so much time and effort into a campaign, hats off to the OP for wishing to take reasonable precautions to prevent easily predictable problems in the campaign.
starfire311 02-14-07, 10:25 AM	With those stats I would play a monk for a few levels then go into crusader, and make your DM cry at your indestructability. But, really the extra +3-4 per stat is rediculous, if for example you were to create an item that granted +4 unnamed bonus to one stat and it is slotless, how much would this item be worth? at least 64k GP, and this character has 6 of them basically, so it is almost like starting out with at least 250k more GP than the rest of the group.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-14-07, 10:38 AM	Go back to Gamefaqs, pirater of D&D books. That's uncalled for.
Drag0nUL 02-14-07, 10:42 AM	I don't say that such high stats don't lead to dominating the game. All I say is that a fighter with such stats won't dominate the game...well...because he is a fighter. I can put a cleric or fighter/arcanist with all his stats 10 except the casting attribute against a fighter with all 18's and win any time at level 15+(even lower for the cleric). Coupling his stats with a powerful class(esp. a MAD one) would be another matter completely.
Holy_Avenger_441 02-14-07, 10:50 AM	I say ranger or bard, with a bard you can use your strength to make your alies stronger, with a ranger you can use every stat you have and you won't dominate the battles.
wonlee76 02-14-07, 11:05 AM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. Well, being a fighter is a good start since even with high stats there are situations where you can't overshadow the other players. In the skills situation and social situations, you're probably not going to outshine the bard/rogue/ranger. Sure, you may have a 16 charisma making you a decent social PC but the rogue/bard has diplomacy as a class skill so they should still be better at being social than your fighter. Primary Spellcasters should be able to catch up to you around level 7+ so I wouldn't worry about them too much. The only one you could outshine is another melee fighting type. My bigger concern is that you mentioned your DM tends to kill you when you roll high stats. I presume that either means you take bigger risks because of your high stats or your DM puts in harder encounters to compensate your high stats. One situation, you can fix on your own (don't take too many high risks). The other situation is out of your control. I admit a DM does have a knee jerk reaction of trying to tailor challenging encounters for the PCs. No point in designing encounters that cause 0 harm to the PCs. There has to be a risk of harm to the players. The problem with designing an encounter for your fighter is that if you drop, your buddies may fall as well if they don't deal with the threat quickly enough.
Holy_Avenger_441 02-14-07, 11:08 AM	7+ My bigger concern is that you mentioned your DM tends to kill you when you roll high stats. I presume that either means you take bigger risks because of your high stats or your DM puts in harder encounters to compensate your high stats. One situation, you can fix on your own (don't take too many high risks). The other situation is out of your control. I admit a DM does have a knee jerk reaction of trying to tailor challenging encounters for the PCs. No point in designing encounters that cause 0 harm to the PCs. There has to be a risk of harm to the players. The problem with designing an encounter for your fighter is that if you drop, your buddies may fall as well if they don't deal with the threat quickly enough. I think it's just bad luck.
Suzaku455 02-14-07, 11:22 AM	My bigger concern is that you mentioned your DM tends to kill you when you roll high stats. I presume that either means you take bigger risks because of your high stats or your DM puts in harder encounters to compensate your high stats. One situation, you can fix on your own (don't take too many high risks). The other situation is out of your control. I admit a DM does have a knee jerk reaction of trying to tailor challenging encounters for the PCs. No point in designing encounters that cause 0 harm to the PCs. There has to be a risk of harm to the players. The problem with designing an encounter for your fighter is that if you drop, your buddies may fall as well if they don't deal with the threat quickly enough. It's just bad luck no matter the dm, with high stat characters I tend to roll low on my saves get criticaled more often (even if dm rolls in front of everyone).
FrostWolf 02-14-07, 11:59 AM	Multiclass into Commoner. Maybe?
Cincinnati 02-14-07, 12:23 PM	What system were you using to roll these insanely high stats? 3d6? 4d6? 5d6?
Pallin Rahl 02-14-07, 12:41 PM	I really don't see the problem, honestly. Yeah, you have high stats. Grats. ...but it's not really that huge of a deal in the long run. So you start off with higher bonuses in most things than a more-standard-statted Fighter... it's not like you'll be some kind of untouchable, walking god or anything. Look at it this way... As a Fighter your two highest stats would likely be in Str (or Dex) and Con. ...so having those stats be high is not too far off from what they'd likely be anyway. (i.e. if you rolled an 18 and two 16s, this is where they'd likely go... and you're only coming out a bit higher given the stats you actually did roll). You'll have a few more hp, a little better chance to hit and a bit more melee damage. Now with those stats, you'll also have a fairly high Int, Wis and Cha. Now let's look at what those stats do for your Fighter. Your Will Save will be a tad higher than normal for a Fighter, but it will hardly be "high" in the long run... it's just not going to go up that much with your class's base saves. Also, your Int, Wis and Cha related skills will be a bit higher than a normal Fighters... HOWEVER, though you're getting more skill pts than a normal Fighter (due to Int bonus), you're still shackled by the base of 2 (given by the class) per level. You'll hardly be a skill monkey. It's not like you'll all of a sudden be the face of the party, outshining the Rogue/Bard/whatever. It just means your Spot, Search, Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, maybe a Knowledge here or there (etc) will be a little higher than normal... but as a Fighter you won't be maxing all these skills out or anything, anyway ...you just don't have the skill pts to do so. Look... hands down you'll be "better" with those stats than a more "normal" array... but especially in the long run, it won't be that huge a deal. You don't need to have crappy stats to roleplay well... and having higher stats than normal (at least in the range you've fallen) doesn't mean you'll dominate every encounter out there. If you want to bring your stats more in line with the rest of the party... you could always shy away from buying stat-enhancing items early-on ...when the rest of the party starts to. Instead, use your cash other places... for useful equipment that doesn't statistically boost you. For instance, when the party's melee-focused Ranger picks up some +2 Str bracers, the Rogue picks up +2 Dex gloves and the Wizard picks up a +2 Int hat... just drop that 4000g on a Rod of Ropes or something. You gain a nifty item and overall the stat differences even-out. Another option is to pick a race you've always thought sounded cool to roleplay, but simply avoided due to their crappy stat penalties. As mentioned, this is your chance to play a Kobold warrior or some other interesting option... and not suck statistically. :) Finally, you have the golden opportunity to play a notoriously MAD-heavy class without wearing your stats too thin. Stats like those do indeed scream Paladin or Monk (etc). Overall, don't flip out about this... it likely won't be that big a deal. --- What system were you using to roll these insanely high stats? 3d6? 4d6? 5d6? Maybe they were using some high-powered system (though the stats of the rest of the party, as he mentioned they look) doesn't seem to suggest that. Plain and simple... when you roll for stats - every long once and awhile the dice gods smile upon you. Enjoy it. :) ...it doesn't happen that often and they were just as likely to have frowned on you instead. ;)
Siduakal 02-14-07, 01:15 PM	18/18/18/17/16/etc.. That's great stats, but you're a fighter. =P You won't horribly outshine the partner nearly as bad as some others with those stats. (A monk with that many high stats is rediculous. It hurts to go from a high roll monk to even a 32 point buy monk. And a 25 point buy monk feels like someone castrated your character)
kelvinaw273 02-14-07, 01:30 PM	Two words of advice for your DM: Point Buy.
Suzaku455 02-14-07, 01:37 PM	What system were you using to roll these insanely high stats? 3d6? 4d6? 5d6? 4d6
Zandolit 02-14-07, 02:11 PM	Whether your party sees your stats as a blessing or a curse can depend more on how you play your role than the actual numbers. I recently created a character for a campaign who had significantly higher stats than anyone else. I was concerned, and I asked each of the other players whether they were OK with this, and told them to be honest and that I would rather lower the stats than make them feel like I was trying to outshine them. To my surprise they not only were fine with it, they wanted me to play the character... because they understood I would use the character to support the rest of the party, so the high stats are to everyone's benefit, not just mine. In a team that's really working together, a stronger member contributes to a strong team rather than stealing the spotlight. Don't assume your fellow players will be upset; they may be pleased. As a fighter, you'd be in a really good position to act in this support role. Rather than focusing on doing as much in combat as possible, focus on protecting the characters with fewer hitpoints. This will allow them to do damage rather than having to heal/buff themselves or each other as much. It's not that you aren't going all out... it's just you're directing the main part of your energy toward protecting the party rather than going on the offense. Make your objective that you'll get the whole party out alive rather than that you'll kill the monster as quickly as possible. There's a lot you could do roleplay wise with that, and it really does benefit the party.
Evil DM Mk3 02-14-07, 02:26 PM	This sort of opertunity is the reason for dice rolling. Go for an interesting archetype, a rare build or even, shock horror, a Paladin. Yes I know you said you where a fighter but that should be still up in the air if you are still asigning stats. Seriously, take the opertunity to enjoy this! If your eally wanted to try somthing hard, do a monk/paladin build. Havent seen a decent one of them in a while. Take the track feat, find a group of mostly non-evil PCs, capture them for a crime the technically commited but are unaware of, take them to be put on trial and then fall as a result of a crazy conspiricy you get in your head becuase they got off, turn LE, kill your aged lord and rant about being the chosen of the gods when another paladin tries to reason with you!
Suzaku455 02-14-07, 02:47 PM	This sort of opertunity is the reason for dice rolling. Go for an interesting archetype, a rare build or even, shock horror, a Paladin. Yes I know you said you where a fighter but that should be still up in the air if you are still asigning stats. Seriously, take the opertunity to enjoy this! If your eally wanted to try somthing hard, do a monk/paladin build. Havent seen a decent one of them in a while. Take the track feat, find a group of mostly non-evil PCs, capture them for a crime the technically commited but are unaware of, take them to be put on trial and then fall as a result of a crazy conspiricy you get in your head becuase they got off, turn LE, kill your aged lord and rant about being the chosen of the gods when another paladin tries to reason with you! In other words play Miko?
DrakePD 02-14-07, 03:02 PM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. The DM saw you roll this? If so I would not let you re roll either! And if you asked me why I'd smack ya in the back of the head and point at your lucky rolls!!!!!
bob_the_great 02-14-07, 03:19 PM	my current character has really high stats so i made him a half-orc barbarian. the only thing 16 wisdom gives him is a better will save and better spot/listen. a 14 int gives him skill points to spend on cross-class skills that a barbarian usually can't afford and allowed me to take combat expertise and trip. i also figured it was a good opportunity to play a weak race. Rather than play a class that can make great use of the stats I say go the other way. Make a fighter with a really high charisma that gets little mechanical advantage from it. put a big number is wisdom for the will save alone. that doesn't really make you more powerful, it just makes you less likely to be magically paralyzed or turned against your party. my other thought would be to play a bard. focus on aiding your allies. your high scores can make you more versatile and survivable, but you still won't be overpowering.
DeathsAudit 02-14-07, 03:59 PM	The task set to all PCs is the same: to aid the party, advance the plot and to guide and follow the story ever at the mercy of the DM, the will of the players and the fickle whims of the uncaring dice.
Evil DM Mk3 02-14-07, 05:31 PM	In other words play Miko? :P
Artector 02-14-07, 05:48 PM	And a 25 point buy monk feels like someone castrated your character) With a folding chair.
Suzaku455 02-14-07, 11:45 PM	I'm being asked to play a healer (no not the class) because no one wants to play a healer and they're looking at me because I played Druid before.
TheDarkLord 02-15-07, 12:12 AM	Keep the stats. Play a cleric, hell a cloister cleric from UA might be better. But don't be a "Steve". You are a lucky, lucky person with those rolls. Keep them and be proud of it. And off topic... Point buy is a variant rule... one of the worst rules I have ever had the experience of playing with. That is one of the main reasons I left a game, the players had all the same stats, no variance, the only difference was where they put them. It sickened me beyond no end...
Evil DM Mk3 02-15-07, 02:40 AM	And off topic... Point buy is a variant rule... one of the worst rules I have ever had the experience of playing with. That is one of the main reasons I left a game, the players had all the same stats, no variance, the only difference was where they put them. It sickened me beyond no end... Amen
Grogmir 02-15-07, 07:04 AM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 I’m sorry but I don’t believe you. The chances of you rolling them dice are infinitely small - 0.00000021779% 1 / 459,165,024 To put it another way, if you rolled stats over and over again doing nothing else it would take you ~73 years just to get a 50/50 chance of them stats. Or perhaps it’s just jealously – The character I rolled up last night has 8, 14, 10, 15, 10, 11! Sorry to think badly of you but I just aren’t going to waste anymore words on this fairy tale. Grogmir.
Drag0nUL 02-15-07, 09:15 AM	Even though such stats are a rarity, they are by no means impossible(saw a similar roll about a month ago). And I for one am a big fan of point buy. Maybe that's because the dice hate me. I can roll decent(and sometimes very good stats) for one shot characters(short campaigns, played just for fun) but when it comes to making a serious character that I put much effort in crafting(storyline, background,personality etc.) and I get crappy, sometimes unusable stats, i just hate it.:weep:
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-15-07, 09:47 AM	Play what you want, how you want. the other players have absolutely no right to complain. i do commend you, in the spirit of comraderie, for trying to forstall hard feelings though.
Zumarai 02-15-07, 09:59 AM	The reason I now dig point buy, is because I foolishly let my players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two for their ability scores in my current campaign. Well, one player had a 40 PB equivalent, and another player had a 67 PB equivalent. So, instead of taking away from the scores that the 67 PB player rolled honestly and "fairly" in front of everyone, we, the 67 PB player and myself, decided it was "balancing" to bring the other 3 players in the campaign up to a 67 PB. We all agree that’s it's much better for all the players to have the same amount of points to spread around, whether it's 22, 25, 28, 32, or our outrageous, accidental 67! The same goes for hit points, that one guy who keeps rolling 8's and 9's for his fighters hit points, and the other guy who keeps rolling 3's and 4's for his barbarians hit points. "Gee Hal, you've rolled a 2 for your paladins hit points for the last 3 levels – bummer." …Lame Hopefully when 4th edition inevitably arrives, rolling for ability scores and hit points will go the way of the Dodo. Next time, 11 Point Buy, baby!
Suzaku455 02-15-07, 10:18 AM	The reason I now dig point buy, is because I foolishly let my players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two for their ability scores in my current campaign. Well, one player had a 40 PB equivalent, and another player had a 67 PB equivalent. So, instead of taking away from the scores that the 67 PB player rolled honestly and "fairly" in front of everyone, we, the 67 PB player and myself, decided it was "balancing" to bring the other 3 players in the campaign up to a 67 PB. We all agree that’s it's much better for all the players to have the same amount of points to spread around, whether it's 22, 25, 28, 32, or our outrageous, accidental 67! The same goes for hit points, that one guy who keeps rolling 8's and 9's for his fighters hit points, and the other guy who keeps rolling 3's and 4's for his barbarians hit points. "Gee Hal, you've rolled a 2 for your paladins hit points for the last 3 levels – bummer." …Lame Hopefully when 4th edition inevitably arrives, rolling for ability scores and hit points will go the way of the Dodo. Next time, 11 Point Buy, baby! Exactly why I prefer point buy to rolling dice, in my opinion it's also best for serious campaign. With rolling dice you can't make your background until you roll your stats. Wanna play a heroic charismatic warrior when you have 14,12,10,10,10,8 or have a low score one in department such as a 3.
starfire311 02-15-07, 10:29 AM	And off topic... Point buy is a variant rule... one of the worst rules I have ever had the experience of playing with. That is one of the main reasons I left a game, the players had all the same stats, no variance, the only difference was where they put them. It sickened me beyond no end... Why did you know what there stats were, in all our games we do point buy, and we don't show our sheets to each other we just do a detailed description of out characters. The only person that knows our stats is the DM, unless we feel like metagaming, sometimes it will come out what some stats are, but it has never been an issue. I am sorry if you feel that a rule that is designed to encourage fairness in a party is the worst rule in the game, I think it is one of the best rules ever, becuase it has brought in a new design philosophy, and it is one that tries to assure balance. Granted PB may not be the best system ever but it was key step in changing philosophy. IMO, why even bother trying to balance the classes and races if you are going to roll stats.
Zumarai 02-15-07, 10:33 AM	Exactly why I prefer point buy to rolling dice, in my opinion it's also best for serious campaign. With rolling dice you can't make your background until you roll your stats. Wanna play a heroic charismatic warrior when you have 14,12,10,10,10,8 or have a low score one in department such as a 3. Totally. Plus, with Point Buy, you can come up with your character concept, and then assign the points to realize your vision. Instead of stuffing whatever you rolled into your concept.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-15-07, 11:14 AM	Totally. Plus, with Point Buy, you can come up with your character concept, and then assign the points to realize your vision. Instead of stuffing whatever you rolled into your concept. Unless you don't get enough points to play an effective version of what you want. If we are using a 28 pb and I want a monk/wizard/psychic warrior then I am kinda screwed. With a decent roll I can play one effectively. :D
Polaris 02-15-07, 12:38 PM	Unless you don't get enough points to play an effective version of what you want. If we are using a 28 pb and I want a monk/wizard/psychic warrior then I am kinda screwed. With a decent roll I can play one effectively. :D I beg to differ. If you roll, you likely won't have enough to play your Monk/Wizard/Psychic Warrior ANYWAY. If you have a concept that can't be built on 28 points (with some sacrifice), then IMHO you probably have an overpowered concept. On 28 points, you can build pretty much what you like which is why I am a huge proponant of PB (in fact random char-gen has largely gone the way of the dodo and for good reason in RPGs). There is yet another huge advantage to Point Buy (in addition to the fact it's actually FAIR to the players....gee imagine that...). The DM can tell the players it's an "X" PB game, and the players can have their characters DONE and ready for DM approval without having to meet in person and those characters can be ready to play immediately. That's not a small consideration given the lack of time and scheduling conflicts many of us face these days. -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-15-07, 01:14 PM	Hmmm, well, I always decide what I will make after I roll anyway. I do admit that I like to see a few 16s but I have played may a character with his best at 14 also. If the DM insisted on PB I would use it without complaint but I prefer to roll.
Polaris 02-15-07, 01:24 PM	Hmmm, well, I always decide what I will make after I roll anyway. I do admit that I like to see a few 16s but I have played may a character with his best at 14 also. If the DM insisted on PB I would use it without complaint but I prefer to roll. Here's the deal as far as I'm concerned. Not having a stat more than 14 is not a problem (unless you are a caster). When no one has a stat more than 14 except for one that has no stat less than a 14, it's a very serious issue and it can and IMX invariably does ruin the game for everyone. Even the DnD playtesters realize this with their LA/CR system. The player with the high stats would be by any reasonable measure at least +3 LA over the player with the poor stats, and that's not right. Moreover, even the plethora of skills and feats and PrCs available over a PC's career, your character background/concept should be the first thing you do or else you can easily become overwhelmed with the choices available (even in core). That's another strike against random generation. You can't do your concept until you roll, and that means rushed and sloppy char-gen all around IMX (and thus an unhappy group) [and by rushed and sloppy, I don't just mean mechanically but conceptually as well]. With PB, you have the luxury as a player of taking a long time before the game to craft your character. As I said before, there is no major system in RPGs (that I know of anyway) that SOLEY depends on random character generation.....and most systems thare aren't DnD use either completely or nearly completely non-random char-gen....and even new editions of RPGs are going consistantly towards non-random generation (Shadowrun being the latest example). Point is that random char-gen is going the way of the Dodo and outside of DnD pretty much already has. -Polaris
TheDarkLord 02-15-07, 01:28 PM	Why did you know what there stats were, in all our games we do point buy, and we don't show our sheets to each other we just do a detailed description of out characters. This party had a "Mines bigger than your's complex" and each of them showed off their sheets. But in reality, when I went to make a Make a fighter with point buy, I asked what would be the best thing for a Dextrous fighter/ranger to put points in. All of them about at the same time said the same 6 numbers. The same six numbers each of them had on their Character sheets. The only person that knows our stats is the DM, unless we feel like metagaming, sometimes it will come out what some stats are, but it has never been an issue. Eh, how is that metagaming? My players share their character sheets with each other all the time when trying to figure out what to do. It's no different than a PC asking another PC "Can you do This, and if so I can do This". The numbers just get shared because of the openness of my games. I am sorry if you feel that a rule that is designed to encourage fairness in a party is the worst rule in the game, I think it is one of the best rules ever, becuase it has brought in a new design philosophy, and it is one that tries to assure balance. Who says the game is fair? Shall i list the ways a wizard with a single 18 int and the rest 10's can own a fighter/ with straight 18's, or how about a rogue with 18 int and 16 cha own any combination of fighter, monk, paladin, ranger with straight 18's? Fairness in the party has nothing at all to do with stat's or classes, it has to do with the DM doing his Job. Granted PB may not be the best system ever but it was key step in changing philosophy. IMO, why even bother trying to balance the classes and races if you are going to roll stats. Why bother changing the classes? I for one think that a wizard who can point a finger and say "Die" Should be more powerful than a fighter swinging his sword day in and day out. One word versus multiple swings? There is no such thing as "Fairness" and "Balance" in the real world. As a matter of fact, I applaud the man who want's to play an underdog and should be rewarded with it In game to a certain extent. But in real life, the underdog out there in the real world will get trampled on and soon find himself without a means to support himself, if not end up dead. And rolling stats represents a more realistic approach to character creation. You might not be good at running and jumping, you might not be smart, but there is that chance you might also be a prodigy or savant. Why take that chance away? I've seen stat's as good as the OP's rolled, hell one time i've rolled better. Point buy cannot simulate the exceptional savant to that extent. In my games, as long as yo have something equal to a 28 point buy or better, you are good to go. If you have straight 18's then your chances of survival go up yes, but it is not guaranteed, evident by the fact that a Cleric in my party just recently bit the big one and he had a very, very good stat array. As far as design philosophy, that is a joke. There is no "Design Philosophy" other than, what sounds cool and what would be workable mechanics that aren't to far out there. Do you really think these designer's look for every possible way something can be broken? They can't, they put something on paper, acid test the damn thing and then install it in a book. I once remember seeing a quote, if it isn't broken, that means the CharOp boards haven't gotten to it yet. That for all intents and purposes is a truth.
Dunsel 02-15-07, 01:34 PM	Stats don't matter, playing style does. I offer the following suggestions to counter your concerns: 1) Don't sit near the DM. 2) Be the 2nd or 3rd in command regardless of your scores. 3) Make your PC shy and withdrawn in personality. 4) Give your character a personal weakness like alcoholism. 5) Give him a funny name, like Dunsel. :D 6) Lay back on treasure grabbing. 7) Be a thinking man's fighter. 8) Be extremel thought/helpful. Also, just have fun! High stats don't make the PC. They are just one part.
Polaris 02-15-07, 01:35 PM	Darklord, You said: There is no such thing as "Fairness" and "Balance" in the real world. As a matter of fact, I applaud the man who want's to play an underdog and should be rewarded with it In game to a certain extent. But in real life, the underdog out there in the real world will get trampled on and soon find himself without a means to support himself, if not end up dead. DnD is not the real world. DnD is a Role-Playing Game, and as a Game it needs to be fair or it's not worth playing. As for your earlier comment regarding wizards vice fighters in the such, that's an invalid argument because you are attempting to excuse one bad rule (random stat generation) with another (unbalanced classes) and two wrongs don't make a right. -Polaris
Polaris 02-15-07, 01:38 PM	Stats don't matter, playing style does. I beg to differ. A quick look through the LA adjustments for stats and a quick look through the basic rules (esp combat rules) quickly tells you that stats matter a great deal and in fact stats have a paramount level of importance at low level (which is when characters are weakest). Seriously, in the OPs original post, if a race gave the same advantage in stats that he rolled, he should be at least LA+3 and that's a serious problem at least for a large percentage of gamers (and frankly given the industry trend, I feel safe in saying a majority of the gamers have rejected random char-gen). -Polaris
Salla 02-15-07, 02:00 PM	DnD is not the real world. DnD is a Role-Playing Game, and as a Game it needs to be fair or it's not worth playing. As for your earlier comment regarding wizards vice fighters in the such, that's an invalid argument because you are attempting to excuse one bad rule (random stat generation) with another (unbalanced classes) and two wrongs don't make a right. -Polaris Amen. I don't even use random HP rolls anymore. Dice rolling is for play, not creation. I do allow a player the option of using the 3-Dragon Ante system from Dragon Magazine if he wishes, but it's purely at player option.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-15-07, 02:02 PM	Moreover, even the plethora of skills and feats and PrCs available over a PC's career, your character background/concept should be the first thing you do or else you can easily become overwhelmed with the choices available (even in core). That's another strike against random generation. You can't do your concept until you roll, and that means rushed and sloppy char-gen all around IMX (and thus an unhappy group) [and by rushed and sloppy, I don't just mean mechanically but conceptually as well]. With PB, you have the luxury as a player of taking a long time before the game to craft your character. Way to make wild assumptions. I just made a new character for a game that I play every week. I have 7 days to make my character. If that is somehow less casual for a PBer that playes every week I am not sure how. I am sorry that IYX that rolling led to bad characters. That has never been the situation IMX. I have found that PB players seem to have more dump stats.
Siduakal 02-15-07, 02:06 PM	Monks on low stats are drastically less effective than high ones. A point buy is -very- tough on a Monk because he has so many important stats. A fighter.. meh.. Wizard.. Meh. Really, you can get away with 2-3 stats for most classes. Upping others for your RPing as you wish. Monk, however, is reliant on 5 stats of the 6. (And that's being nice and saying Cha isn't important to him) - Hes got 4 Skill points, but a ton of skills that are very useful to him. He's got a d8, but he's a front liner. This makes the con all that much more important. Strength is of course going to aid in damage. Wisdom is his AC, among other things. Dexterity is much the same. Cha is important for diplomacy, and a few other things. Really, all 6 are 'useful' to him, and having negatives in any of them hurts. Unlike the casters, he has no armor buff spells. Unlike the tanks, he can't just start off wearing armor. In a point buy, your monk will most likely have 14 or less AC for a few levels. You will get hit a lot. Monks are very challenging to start off using low point buys or stats. I prefer rolling, personally. I roll well on stats and not so well at the table.. so I'd like my stat bonuses from the good stat rolls for when I keep rolling crap during play.
Polaris 02-15-07, 02:16 PM	Way to make wild assumptions. I just made a new character for a game that I play every week. I have 7 days to make my character. If that is somehow less casual for a PBer that playes every week I am not sure how. I am sorry that IYX that rolling led to bad characters. That has never been the situation IMX. I have found that PB players seem to have more dump stats. You mean you don't have your DM supervise your rolls?? That's just broken....and I am not making wild assumptions. With rolling, you have to schedule a time with your DM just to make rolls before you can even start on your concept. Thus I find what you claim to be very hard to believe. OTOH, several other posters have backed my experieces with their own. More to the point a quarter century of RPG experience has convinced the gaming community as a whole that random char-gen is a bad idea. Don't take my word for it. Consider the evidence. In 1975 all the way through to the early eighties virtually all RPGs used random char-gen systems. Now? Almost no RPGs use a random char-gen system and none do exclusively. That's a huge change and if you think it happened for no reason, then you are ignoring the experience of the gaming community as a whole. -Polaris
Polaris 02-15-07, 02:18 PM	Siduakal, What you say about the Monk (and I will add the Paladin in as well) is true. They (both) are very stat-needy. However, that does not in any way defend random rolling. It meanly means the Monk (and Paladin) classes are underpowered. Point is that your chances of getting a good Monk character using random rolls is actually LESS than even with a 28 point buy (because at least with Point buy, you can insure 4 decent stats). -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-15-07, 03:46 PM	You mean you don't have your DM supervise your rolls?? That's just broken....and I am not making wild assumptions. With rolling, you have to schedule a time with your DM just to make rolls before you can even start on your concept. Thus I find what you claim to be very hard to believe. -Polaris Where did I say my DM doesn't supervise? How long does it take you to roll dice? At the end of our last session I rolled a set of stats right there. Not that that really matters. I am 33. If I need another adult to make sure I don't "cheat" at D&D then I deserve to have my dice taken away.
Siduakal 02-15-07, 03:46 PM	Maybe for most. Whenever I stat roll I tend to do good. It's like my dice save all the good rolls til I roll stats. Then they roll 1-5 range on the d20 the rest of the time. I once checked to see if they were weighted backwards or something.. Hate those dice.
TheDarkLord 02-15-07, 04:37 PM	DnD is not the real world. DnD is a Role-Playing Game, and as a Game it needs to be fair or it's not worth playing. Really? Tell that to the millions of kids who pretend play all the time. Tell that to the Hundreds of professional sports players as well. Imbalance exists in any and all aspects of both real life and pretend life. And claiming that those "games" aren't worth playing when people are paid millions of dollars to do so is quite ridiculous. As for your earlier comment regarding wizards vice fighters in the such, that's an invalid argument because you are attempting to excuse one bad rule (random stat generation) with another (unbalanced classes) and two wrongs don't make a right. With point buy, a Wizard will kill a fighter every time. With stat rolling, the fighter at least has a chance to excel with a greater stat array than he would with standard point buy. There is no argument about it, standard point buy is a varient for a reason. Not all people have the same stats or points, neither should characters. Being "fair" gimps those who could or are truly gifted. If you have a child who is exceptionally gifted, would you in "fairness" leave him in the same class so that way his classmates don't get jealous of him? Of course not, you'd do what is best for your child, not what is best for a group. Even if a character has on average a 50 point buy while the rest have a 30 point buy, they in no way shape or form should even notice this during a game. A DM should and better be able to handle a situation like this with no problem, otherwise he should Not be DMing. That's the last i'm going to say on the matter, I don't want to get in trouble for Highjacking a thread, any further comments directed at me about this should be sent via email or PM.
snakeman830 02-15-07, 05:23 PM	This is not as huge an issue as people are making it out to be,(although there's another vote for using the unusual weapons. Handaxes are a great idea). Having the higher stats, yeah, I can see you not wanting to steal the show. So, roleplay your fighter down if you think it's too much. It's amazing what you can do with some good roleplaying. I've had absolute crap for abilities on one of my characters, but she (yes, I do occasionally make female characters) turned into a person who simply dominated both the battlefield and the civil fronts (well chosen favored enemies, feats, and equipment assisted in both). If this is possible with a crap set of rolls, it must be possible to do the opposite with a great set. As a side note, why is everone bashing on the bard? it may not be as good as a fighter at fighting, a scorcerer at blasting, a rouge at ,well, whatever rouges do, or a cleric at healing, but he can do all of them fairly well. No other class shares this versatility. Add on to that some unque abilities, and you've got a solid class.
Polaris 02-15-07, 05:29 PM	Where did I say my DM doesn't supervise? How long does it take you to roll dice? At the end of our last session I rolled a set of stats right there. Way to completely ignore the point. Some of us have professions and other demands on our time that makes it impractical to meet face to face outside of regularly scheduled gaming sessions. I think a lot of our fellow readers will know exactly what I am talking about on this one. With Point Buy, this isn't an issue. Char-Gen and Char-Gen oversight can be done entirely over email, messenger, or communication mode of your choice. That's because there isn't any random roll that's needed for confirmation. You can't say that with random generation. Not that that really matters. I am 33. If I need another adult to make sure I don't "cheat" at D&D then I desreve to have my dice taken away. <Snark Removed> Edit: I don't care if you are 3, 33, or one hundred and thirty-three, you absolutely should have another adult verify your rolls in random char-gen. This would apply even if you were Mother Teresa. With random char-gen, your character's future and power depends hugely on one, non-repeatable set of random rolls, and thus the impulse to cheat is overwhelming for anyone. Point Buy takes this temptation away. -Polaris
Polaris 02-15-07, 05:37 PM	Really? Tell that to the millions of kids who pretend play all the time. Tell that to the Hundreds of professional sports players as well. Imbalance exists in any and all aspects of both real life and pretend life. And claiming that those "games" aren't worth playing when people are paid millions of dollars to do so is quite ridiculous. Kids playing pretend frequently break down in fights over this as well (you hit me; no you didn't; etc ad naseum). This is why RPGs have rules to help stop this. You are also wrong about professional atheltics. Balance and Fairness are considered hightly desirable (indeed necessary) there as well, and when a team is better than another (which is not the same thing always as which team wins an individual contest), it is for factors that the team can control, i.e. non-random factors. That is WHY the NFL has a salary-cop structure and a 53 man roster limit; that is WHY the NCAA has multiple divisions and a strict limit on what and how students can be recruited. Bad example all the way around. The point is that the contests should be fair even in the cases you mention and the contest revolves around a strictly structured test of athletic ability. With point buy, a Wizard will kill a fighter every time. With stat rolling, the fighter at least has a chance to excel with a greater stat array than he would with standard point buy. There is no argument about it, standard point buy is a varient for a reason. Not all people have the same stats or points, neither should characters. Being "fair" gimps those who could or are truly gifted. The Wizard will kill the fighter everytime with or without point buy. This has been shown so many times on both the classes and char-op boards it's boringly routine. However, pointing out that there is a class imbalance (which is bad) does not excuse a faulty char-gen system. Edit: The only reason that point-buy is listed as a 'varient' (athough RPGA and pretty much all tourneys now do point-buy) is nostalgia. DnD was the last major RPG to ditch the exclusive random char-gen model. Whenever 4E comes out, don't expect random char-gen to be the primary method of char-gen. If you have a child who is exceptionally gifted, would you in "fairness" leave him in the same class so that way his classmates don't get jealous of him? Of course not, you'd do what is best for your child, not what is best for a group. This is a game All players should have the opportunity to build equally competant characters in their own rights. Real life has nothing to do with it. Even if a character has on average a 50 point buy while the rest have a 30 point buy, they in no way shape or form should even notice this during a game. A DM should and better be able to handle a situation like this with no problem, otherwise he should Not be DMing. That's just not true. A character with extremely high stats can take on CRs sever levels higher than he should especially at low levels. That's why races with a net positive modifier to stats have high LAs. -Polaris
Polaris 02-15-07, 05:48 PM	Maybe for most. Whenever I stat roll I tend to do good. It's like my dice save all the good rolls til I roll stats. If this is so, don't you think you are cheating? Perhaps you aren't deliberately doing so (dice can be loaded without realizing it), but if you are getting results better than you should, isn't it wrong to use them on something as important as characteristics? The whole counter-argument for random char-gen is that the "dice play no favorites" and thus everyone has an equal opportunity to play what they want (a notion I completely disagree with btw). If you CAN roll your dice in such a way to get favored results, then it seems to me that the only reason you favor random char-gen is because you know you can get better characters....and I think something is wrong with that. -Polaris
Polaris 02-15-07, 05:53 PM	This is not as huge an issue as people are making it out to be,(although there's another vote for using the unusual weapons. Handaxes are a great idea). Having the higher stats, yeah, I can see you not wanting to steal the show. So, roleplay your fighter down if you think it's too much. It's amazing what you can do with some good roleplaying. I've had absolute crap for abilities on one of my characters, but she (yes, I do occasionally make female characters) turned into a person who simply dominated both the battlefield and the civil fronts (well chosen favored enemies, feats, and equipment assisted in both). If this is possible with a crap set of rolls, it must be possible to do the opposite with a great set. You might think so but my experience (and apparently overall experience in the gaming community) suggests otherwise. I note in passing that just because A implies B does not mean that B implies A. In the case you suggest, the player has a strong incentive to get the very most out of the poor hand they are dealt and thus handling things efficiently often either mitigating problems, turning them into assets, or in fact both. The reverse sadly isn't really true. Best of intentions aside, it's hard to play dumber than you really are, and it's difficult to gauge just how much to "gimp" or disadvantage your character just to make up for high stats...especially when each encounter can be vitally important. It's much more natural and frankly IMHO much betting RPing as well to make the most of the skills and abilities that you possess. If you do, however, you generate a huge power-imbalance that is no fun for anyone (assuming you are the one with the greatly better stats going back to OP's post). -Polaris
Suzaku455 02-15-07, 06:15 PM	Really? Tell that to the millions of kids who pretend play all the time. Tell that to the Hundreds of professional sports players as well. Imbalance exists in any and all aspects of both real life and pretend life. And claiming that those "games" aren't worth playing when people are paid millions of dollars to do so is quite ridiculous. There are rules in place to keep everything fair. No team has a mechanical advantage of other teams. Everyone follows the same rules including salary caps in most sports. In base ball there is also a shared revenue for teams in less fortunate areas, while others handicap their salary cap to make more profit (I'm looking at you Pirates). With point buy, a Wizard will kill a fighter every time. With stat rolling, the fighter at least has a chance to excel with a greater stat array than he would with standard point buy. There is no argument about it, standard point buy is a varient for a reason. Not all people have the same stats or points, neither should characters. Being "fair" gimps those who could or are truly gifted. The Wizard will kill the fighter every time no matter if it's point buy or rolling for stats. The wizard can start out with 15 Int and kill a straight 18 fighter hands. If you have a child who is exceptionally gifted, would you in "fairness" leave him in the same class so that way his classmates don't get jealous of him? Of course not, you'd do what is best for your child, not what is best for a group. Stats rolling however it's like giving one kid a graphing calculator while giving other kids everything from 1 dollar calculator or adding machine to figure out how to do cos tan sin of a number. Or better yet a football example, your opponent's team has to run or pass 45 yards because they rolled 45 on the d100. Meanwhile your team has to run or pass 100 yards to score because you rolled d100. Even if a character has on average a 50 point buy while the rest have a 30 point buy, they in no way shape or form should even notice this during a game. A DM should and better be able to handle a situation like this with no problem, otherwise he should Not be DMing. That's the last i'm going to say on the matter, I don't want to get in trouble for Highjacking a thread, any further comments directed at me about this should be sent via email or PM. The only way to balance out encounter with a higher stat character is by sending more challenging monsters at the party meaning the other characters will be less effective. The second way involves cheating which is to fudge the rolls so the higher stat person is less effective.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 07:49 AM	This is a game All players should have the opportunity to build equally competant characters in their own rights. Real life has nothing to do with it. -Polaris And they do, they have the same range of stats available from rolling as the other character that rolls. I am so tired of saying this in thread after thread.
Zumarai 02-16-07, 07:54 AM	I am so tired of saying this in thread after thread. …So are we…
darkhunter2007 02-16-07, 07:55 AM	Two words of advice for your DM: Point Buy. he's right, point buy makes it fair for everyone...
ShadowDragon8685 02-16-07, 08:39 AM	You know, higher stats are important only for the first few levels, when class features are scarce and hard to come by. So yeah, for the first four or five levels, your fighter's going to be the shining star of the party, their knight in shining armor. They'll send you to do the talking (unless the party has a dedicated Face character, like a Diplomancer Bard or Rogue). But when level 5 rolls around, suddenly things change. It dosen't matter that your fighter's rolling a full +1 Greatsword Power Attack with a +5 to hit and doing 2d6+9 damage, because all of a sudden the Wizard is busting out Scintilating Sphere (Fireball with electricity damage, for the unenlightened) that deals 5d6 to every target within a 20-foot radius. So that's 17.5 average damage that just erased that horde of mooks you were looking forward to headbashing. And then you roll around to the Big Boss, who's got AC 28 and you can only hit him if you don't power attack at all (for an attack bonus of +10), and now look at your Greatsword. Wow, 2d6+5 damage, and you better pray he don't have any appreciable DR or you're screwed. Then the Wizard busts out a Sound Lance, dealing 5d8 damage for 22.5 average damage, and of course he can always roll high, which means he could go up to 40. You can still outdo him over time, but by now you've started to realize that your high stats aren't the be-all, end-all. Just like Video killed the Radio Star, Class Features killed the Attribute Star. And wait until it gets to be level 10. You're scrambling for any bonuses you can come up with, and while your starting attributes put you ahead of the other pack of 10th-level Fighters who're working with lower scores, you're still desperately behind the rest of the characters, and your starting attributes aren't even all that significant compared to your BAB and other class features. By level 20, your role in the party has gone from leading the charge to bringing up the rear to prevent goblin scouts from sneaking up behind the wizard, because let's face it, even he can tank against a single target better than you. So, in summary, pick another (better) class, and just be aware that your high stats won't mean jack once the ball really starts rolling.
CaoSlayer 02-16-07, 09:04 AM	This is your chance to play one rare class/race combination such as kobolt fighter, half-orc paladin or dwarf sorcerer. I would recomend you to play as a fighter/ranger goblin with high charisma for later geting leadership and a worg cohort. being small using small weapons and a -2 Str it is enought to balance your character. Dont listen to be people saying "play a bard" with such stats bards are godlike seriously, a bard with 18 str, 16 dex, 18 con and 18 charisma is harder than a fighter with a very great spellcasting while using light armor... MAD is the only thing that keeps a bard balanced.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 09:16 AM	…So are we… Then stop making me :D
Johnny_Angel 02-16-07, 09:22 AM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. If you're really that worried about being too overpowering, take a level or 2 of commoner before you take a PC class.
Zumarai 02-16-07, 09:31 AM	Then stop making me :D I as well am sick of posting my same views on this subject. …I think we're making each other?
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 09:46 AM	I as well am sick of posting my same views on this subject. …I think we're making each other? I also think we have strayed from the op's original question. I do have to say that as a DM I would never deny a player that wanted to voluntarily nerf his or her character though. But ultimately it is the DM's call so as I said earlier, just go with it.
Gemmalah 02-16-07, 11:45 AM	on the point of supervised rolling even though my group is relativly mature we usually spend the first session of the adventure making characters together, this means we all see each others rolls. It also allows players to give each other advice on charcter creation and compare backstories. (and to help those who are not so good at maths) i also say if all stats are below 13 re roll (you are an adventurer better than most people so at least one stat should be high) rolling stats allows difference in characters. you were lucky to get such good rolls perhaps you could enjoy it because no one PC has all the nessicary skills to become a one man party. different distribution of skillpoints will see to that in a few levels time.
Olskool 02-16-07, 12:59 PM	he's right, point buy makes it lame for everyone... Fixed it for you.
Witch 02-16-07, 01:04 PM	Fixed it for you. Sometimes I think "old school" means "spiteful and arrogant".
Olskool 02-16-07, 01:21 PM	Sometimes I think "old school" means "spiteful and arrogant". Sometimes I think "witch" means a person who engages in a new age religion. It can also be used as a conjunction.
Ruslanchik 02-16-07, 01:24 PM	Having such stats should actually balance your character since fighters suck. By level 7 you'll be right on par with the rest of your party.
Polaris 02-16-07, 01:43 PM	And they do, they have the same range of stats available from rolling as the other character that rolls. I am so tired of saying this in thread after thread. No they don't. When the characters are actually build after the rolls, the characters aren't balanced. That's not right, it's not fair, and it makes for a bad game. This isn't me talking, but 25years of collective gaming experience talking as well. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 01:57 PM	No they don't. When the characters are actually build after the rolls, the characters aren't balanced. That's not right, it's not fair, and it makes for a bad game. This isn't me talking, but 25years of collective gaming experience talking as well. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. -Polaris Two players roll 4d6 drop low. Each gets 6 scores. How is that unfair? How is that unbalanced? Yes, they can get drastically different scores. That is the whole point of a random stat set. if they don't want to roll then the DM can assign a PB but if other players get higher PB equivilents by rolling it is still not unfair because they were all afforded the same opportunity. I don't see where the confusion is. Bottom line: everyone should have a choice in the manner in which they create their character and everyone should have access to the same choices. (i.e. no you can roll but everyone else has to 28 PB)
Polaris 02-16-07, 02:05 PM	Two players roll 4d6 drop low. Each gets 6 scores. How is that unfair? How is that unbalanced? Yes, they can get drastically different scores. That is the whole point of a random stat set. if they don't want to roll then the DM can assign a PB but if other players get higher PB equivilents by rolling it is still not unfair because they were all afforded the same opportunity. I don't see where the confusion is. Do I really have to explain it? I suppose I do. Imagine a game of football. Now imagine a system where both teams rolled 4d6 drop 1 to determine how many touchdowns they each started with. By your argument this is fair. Football fans across the US would strongly beg to differ. The problem with random generation is that you get ONE set of rolls whose variable results create balance issues and lock in (and often lock out) character concepts for the entire campaign. This is far different from random d20 rolls. Why? You will make hundreds of d20 rolls and thus you expect to get a full range of results. You only do stat generation once, and it will affect all these hundreds of d20 rolls all the same way....and that's not fair, balanced or right. You are adding in the DM can do PB as an afterthought. I will take it as an admission that the underlying pure Random Char-Gen system is fundamentally flawed and unfair. Bottom line: everyone should have a choice in the manner in which they create their character and everyone should have access to the same choices. (i.e. no you can roll but everyone else has to 28 PB) No. Bottom Line: Everyone should have the opportunity to play the character they want within the guidelines set by the DM NOT THE DICE. -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 02:21 PM	Do I really have to explain it? I suppose I do. Imagine a game of football. Now imagine a system where both teams rolled 4d6 drop 1 to determine how many touchdowns they each started with. By your argument this is fair. Football fans across the US would strongly beg to differ. How does this arguement even apply to rpgs? Could you try again and use actual in game context to explain how rolling in at its core unfair? The problem with random generation is that you get ONE set of rolls whose variable results create balance issues and lock in (and often lock out) character concepts for the entire campaign. This is far different from random d20 rolls. Why? You will make hundreds of d20 rolls and thus you expect to get a full range of results. You only do stat generation once, and it will affect all these hundreds of d20 rolls all the same way....and that's not fair, balanced or right. I am not even talking about d20 rolls. What I am saying is that while the results may not be the exact ones you want there is nothing inherently unfair about the system. Unfair would be everyone has point buy except for the dm's girlfriend who gets to roll 5d6 drop the low 2 reroll 1's. You are adding in the DM can do PB as an afterthought. I will take it as an admission that the underlying pure Random Char-Gen system is fundamentally flawed and unfair. Wild assumptions strike again. If you read any of my posts in other threads of a like nature I have never had a problem with point buy. I do prefer to roll but that is not the issue. I have issue with the people that claim rolling is unfair. Never put words in my mouth, please. No. Bottom Line: Everyone should have the opportunity to play the character they want within the guidelines set by the DM NOT THE DICE. Where do I claim that they cannot. If the DM says roll then everyone does have that opportunity. I fail to see any way that rolling would 100% keep you from playing a concept. Nor have you shown me any evidence that it would hinder it at all.
Polaris 02-16-07, 02:42 PM	How does this arguement even apply to rpgs? Could you try again and use actual in game context to explain how rolling in at its core unfair? Both Football and DnD are GAMES and I showed at it's very core why the random char-gen is unfair. To extend the football analogy further, imagine this instead. At the start of every NFL season, all 32 teams had to roll 4d6 drop 1 dice, and that's how many players they could field for the entire season including playoffs. Fair? I think not, but that is exactly the sort of system you are advocating. Let's talk about DnD. Let's add in another random stat....the XP adjustment stat. Roll 4d6 -1 and subtract 10. That's the percentage bonus (or penalty) you are awarded XP for the ENTIRE CAMPAIGN. Fair? By your standards it is. By most, it doesn't even come within shouting distance. Yet....all those that use a random char-gen model are in fact using an unfair XP adjuster. Why? Because those players lucky enough to roll well can take CRs as much as three ahead of the rest of the party. That means they will earn more XP earlier than anyone else (who winds up being shreds on the turf). Fair? I think not. I am not even talking about d20 rolls. What I am saying is that while the results may not be the exact ones you want there is nothing inherently unfair about the system. Unfair would be everyone has point buy except for the dm's girlfriend who gets to roll 5d6 drop the low 2 reroll 1's. No it's not fair. Fair is to give every player equal opportunity within the power and theme guidelines set by the GM. The random model is anything but fair because you are relying on a random mechanic for the most important foundations of character strength (stats). As a result you can (and IMX all too often do) wind up with a strong character that can take on anything, and everyone else is shreds on the ground. Not fair; not fair at all. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. Wild assumptions strike again. If you read any of my posts in other threads of a like nature I have never had a problem with point buy. I do prefer to roll but that is not the issue. I have issue with the people that claim rolling is unfair. Never put words in my mouth, please. You clearly DO have a problem with pointbuy and you have NEVER indicated that you should put both systems side by side. Where do I claim that they cannot. If the DM says roll then everyone does have that opportunity. I fail to see any way that rolling would 100% keep you from playing a concept. Nor have you shown me any evidence that it would hinder it at all. Most other people do see how it's unfair (or at least unwise) not just here but in the gaming community over the past twentyfive years. I have already explained why as have others. If you still don't understand it, then I think you never will (or never want to). -Polaris
goblin_pride 02-16-07, 02:47 PM	My question is more along the lines of why wouldn't a DM let a player voluntarily handicap themselves if they felt like it? I've rolled a set of stats similar just once in 22 years of playing. Even if you think it's too much, make a character that mirrors your apprehensions. That's what I did. When I'm off scouting, nothing can touch me, but when I'm with the others, I'm always covering the casters so that nothing gets close to them while the other fighter-types lay waste to the opponents. Hell, the cleric wades into the melee more often than I do.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 03:11 PM	You clearly DO have a problem with pointbuy and you have NEVER indicated that you should put both systems side by side. -Polaris Please see below... Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Re: Rolling HP: Outmoded Concept or Elegant Weapon for a More Civilized Age? ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by Zumarai Hopefully when 4th edition inevitably arrives rolling for hit points and ability scores will go the way of the Dodo. Why? See, I would allow pointbuy and average Hp per level if one of my characters wanted it (none have ever asked though). Why can't both systems co-exist? The only answer I can think of is that the PB/AVEHP crowd would find it unfair if another character had rolled higher stats and hp. Am I wrong? As I said, I have stated it before in like nature threads.
Polaris 02-16-07, 03:16 PM	Pyke, I can only judge by what you posted on this thread. It is unrealistic to expect everyone to review your entire posting history. I also note that you said nothing about allowing PB and Rolling together until the end of page three. That's classic "moving the goalposts". It also doesn't help your case one iota since allowing both together is STILL unfair. My prior arguments still apply without loss of generality. -Polaris Edit: I find it particularly obnoxious that you didn't provide a link. Because you didn't, I don't know that you are in fact telling the truth. You could have made up that "quoted post" from thin air. In a forum without a search engine post your links or don't bother quoting from other threads.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 03:28 PM	Edit: I find it particularly obnoxious that you didn't provide a link. Because you didn't, I don't know that you are in fact telling the truth. You could have made up that "quoted post" from thin air. In a forum without a search engine post your links or don't bother quoting from other threads. For that I will apologize. I don't know how to link to a certain post and so just copied and pasted.
elondir 02-16-07, 03:37 PM	Im my calculations are correct, the odds of three 18's, two 17's, and a 16 on 4d6 drop low are 1 in 44 billion (21 in 2196 of getting rolling an 18 once, 54 in 2196 of getting a 17, and 94 in 2196 of a 16. 104^3*40^2*23=44 billion). I think that formula might not be right, but if it is then you should play the lottery. If I were you I'd sit back and enjoy playing a character with the luckiest rolling I've ever heard of.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 03:46 PM	The only way I can see it being completely fair as far as stats go it to give an array. I don't know of a player that would like that. Some seem to think that PC inequality through stats is a gamebreaking offense. I can say the players in both of my groups, one in my hometown and one down here where I work, would not even grumble if one player "got lucky" and rolled well. I know others expreience may vary. All I can say is that PB is not superior to rolling just like one beer is not superior to another. It is a matter of taste. I, and my players, like to roll. We see nothing unfair about it. I don't see how it is unbalancing nor have I seen compelling evidence to support such a claim. I have seen people say, and this is paraphrasing, "but his character might be better than mine and I don't like that." I have also heard "but his character will be so tough that the rest of us will die." To the first all I can say is try and be mature about it. Just play your character and have fun with it. It won't always be the same. To the second, either the DM will take all things into consideration or the party will have to adapt to work together. It is always that way regardless of how the characters are made. I, as a DM, like to offer my players options within reason. I have neevr disallowed or even persuaded one of my players against using PB. They just don't. If one wanted to I would allow a 30 or 32 PB. If another player opted to roll he would have to take whatever he rolled regardless of whether it was a 25 PB or a 52 PB. He took the chance rolling and he gets to reap the result. No other player can tell him how to make his character. Just because one player doesn't want to get "hosed" by rolling doesn't mean that the people who like to roll should have to use another method. THAT would be unfair.
Polaris 02-16-07, 03:49 PM	Im my calculations are correct, the odds of three 18's, two 17's, and a 16 on 4d6 drop low are 1 in 44 billion (21 in 2196 of getting rolling an 18 once, 54 in 2196 of getting a 17, and 94 in 2196 of a 16. 104^3*40^2*23=44 billion). I think that formula might not be right, but if it is then you should play the lottery. If I were you I'd sit back and enjoy playing a character with the luckiest rolling I've ever heard of. That sounds right, but I would have to analyze it in depth to be sure. However, as low as it is, it can happen. More to the point, IMX anyway such rolls seem to happen significantly more often than the odds would account for? Cheating or wonky dice? You be the judge...... That's the problem with the random system. The incentive to cheat is neigh overwelming, cheating on one set of rolls is very easy to do (cheap dice + microwave is one easy and nearly foolproof way), and because the dice are only rolled once, nearly impossible to detect. -Polaris
Guyver027 02-16-07, 03:54 PM	If I was your dm... I'd be begging you to reroll...(i'd also make you use my dice: cause yours are obviously loaded)...If I were you... I wouldn't be crying about my uberness... I would build a disgusting fighter, and start planning for the Kensai prestige class... by 10lev... you could be very disgusting... If you die all the time with high stats... try playing your character differently... or tell your DM to stop gunning for you because he/she can't deal with your over-powered character... after all he/she is the one that wanted you to keep your high stats... We have gotten away from random stats in campaigns I play in, and we use a point-buy system... it seems to balance the party better within itself, and for challenges... You may wish to suggest this if your brokeness offends you or others in your campaign... P.S. can I borrow those dice?
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 03:55 PM	That sounds right, but I would have to analyze it in depth to be sure. However, as low as it is, it can happen. More to the point, IMX anyway such rolls seem to happen significantly more often than the odds would account for? Cheating or wonky dice? You be the judge...... That's the problem with the random system. The incentive to cheat is neigh overwelming, cheating on one set of rolls is very easy to do (cheap dice + microwave is one easy and nearly foolproof way), and because the dice are only rolled once, nearly impossible to detect. -Polaris Cheating really is that rampant in your experience? Either I am blind or I just have been lucky player-wise. I have been convinced. if cheating is the problem and I need to prevent it from now on I will just tell my players to assign stats according to concept and I will approve. that way no fudging can occur. Seriously, I don't think I have fudged a roll since high school. Do you really find it that big a problem?
Polaris 02-16-07, 03:56 PM	The only way I can see it being completely fair as far as stats go it to give an array. I don't know of a player that would like that. I don't follow. I am not saying the current PB is perfect because of other problems in the system, but if all players are given equal number of points, then they have equal opportunities to create the character they wish. At that point the onus is strictly on the player (where it belongs). It's a tried and true system (in principle anyway) over a myriad of systems over the past 20 years or so. Some seem to think that PC inequality through stats is a gamebreaking offense. I can say the players in both of my groups, one in my hometown and one down here where I work, would not even grumble if one player "got lucky" and rolled well. I know others expreience may vary. All I can say is that PB is not superior to rolling just like one beer is not superior to another. It is a matter of taste. I, and my players, like to roll. We see nothing unfair about it. I don't see how it is unbalancing nor have I seen compelling evidence to support such a claim. I have seen people say, and this is paraphrasing, "but his character might be better than mine and I don't like that." I have also heard "but his character will be so tough that the rest of us will die." Individual experiences prove little. It's the context as a whole that matters. It turns out in this global context that both "but his character might be better than mine" and "but his character will be so tough that the rest of us will die" are valid complaints. A character with noticably higher stats will in fact be able to handle challenges above (sometimes far above) what his level might otherwise indicate....leaving everyone else shredded on the turf. Not only does this case the high stat character to advance faster than it should, but it also helps generate problems in the group (who likes playing second fiddle?) To the first all I can say is try and be mature about it. Just play your character and have fun with it. It won't always be the same. Cop Out #131. To the second, either the DM will take all things into consideration or the party will have to adapt to work together. It is always that way regardless of how the characters are made. Cop Out #132 I, as a DM, like to offer my players options within reason. I have neevr disallowed or even persuaded one of my players against using PB. They just don't. If one wanted to I would allow a 30 or 32 PB. If another player opted to roll he would have to take whatever he rolled regardless of whether it was a 25 PB or a 52 PB. He took the chance rolling and he gets to reap the result. No other player can tell him how to make his character. Just because one player doesn't want to get "hosed" by rolling doesn't mean that the people who like to roll should have to use another method. THAT would be unfair. Of course they don't. It's better for said players to cheat (and they may not realize they are doing so). It's trivially easy to slant the rolls on a 4d6 drop one in ways that are virtually undectable in the short run (because the sample space isn't large enough). -Polaris
Polaris 02-16-07, 04:01 PM	Cheating really is that rampant in your experience? Either I am blind or I just have been lucky player-wise. I have been convinced. if cheating is the problem and I need to prevent it from now on I will just tell my players to assign stats according to concept and I will approve. that way no fudging can occur. Seriously, I don't think I have fudged a roll since high school. Do you really find it that big a problem? You may well have been blind. Seriously, how many of your players like to use "lucky dice" when rolling their characters? How many players like to blow on dice or roll in a particular way? Some of these techniques CAN and DO alter the way the dice land, and none of you may actually realize this. Can you tell loaded dice just by handling them? Unlikely unless the dice are really badly balanced. Give me a microwave and a set of cheap dice, and I will give you a set of d6s that roll 5's and 6's most of the time, and you WON'T be able to tell just by holding them. I am not saying said people are even horrible people. I am simply saying that the temptation to get those "lucky rolls" is so overwhelming as to be neigh irresistable to anyway. Don't believe me? I wouldn't be suprised, but go back and analyze how often "good" characters are rolled vs what is predicted using stochastically independant (fair) dice. I think you will be suprised and not in a good way. Point buy and other non-random systems takes this temptation completely way in addition to all the other advantages I have pointed out. -Polaris
Guyver027 02-16-07, 04:04 PM	I couldn't agree more... the best thing about a point buy sys... if your not happy with your character... blame yourself... not your rolls..
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 04:05 PM	You may well have been blind. Seriously, how many of your players like to use "lucky dice" when rolling their characters? How many players like to blow on dice or roll in a particular way? Some of these techniques CAN and DO alter the way the dice land, and none of you may actually realize this. Can you tell loaded dice just by handling them? Unlikely unless the dice are really badly balanced. Give me a microwave and a set of cheap dice, and I will give you a set of d6s that roll 5's and 6's most of the time, and you WON'T be able to tell just by holding them. I am not saying said people are even horrible people. I am simply saying that the temptation to get those "lucky rolls" is so overwhelming as to be neigh irresistable to anyway. Don't believe me? I wouldn't be suprised, but go back and analyze how often "good" characters are rolled vs what is predicted using stochastically independant (fair) dice. I think you will be suprised and not in a good way. Point buy and other non-random systems takes this temptation completely way in addition to all the other advantages I have pointed out. -Polaris So you verify after every game that the characters are still the same they were before hand? If I had tempted players I certainly would. Keep backups of their sheets, make sure they don't add a rank to a skill to get into that PRC a little earlier than they could have otherwise. For me, and my group, party balance is a NON-issue. It saddens me that this is not the case everywhere. We do not compete with one another on who's character shines more. We just play. Go on you "PB is the only way" people and keep a paranoid eye on your friends. They may be having more fun than you.
Johnny_Angel 02-16-07, 06:38 PM	While I do agree that point buy allows for everyone to start on equal ground, I do not feel that rolling stats is unfair. You have just as much chance to roll low stats as you do to roll high stats. As for saying rolling is unfair...I agree that sometimes it is because some characters get better stats than others; however, I (personally) don't see that to be such a glaring problem. Honestly, I find it somewhat ridiculous to say that everything should be perfectly fair. Even with point buy it's possible for one person to construct a more effective character than another person. I noticed that football was being used as an example. I read Polaris's example about rolling to see how many players a team could field during that playoffs. I understand that example, but I think that point buy would also be extremely unfair in football. Let's say for the sake of example that a point buy system was implemented in the NFL right before the Super Bowl. A team of mathmaticians are hired to figure how each player's stats would translate into a numerical value. At some point in the game a bunch of guys run onto the field and grab Peyton Manning; the crowd is confused; they have no idea what is going on. Shortly thereafter the NFL commissioner comes onto the field and announces that the Colts can't have Peyton Manning on their team because he's too skilled. I'm sorry, but that seems totally ridiculous to me. Now, let's get back to discussing D&D. Let's say that your DM puts you in a situation in which you have to jump over a pit. Oops, you don't have any ranks in jump! You were playing a class that only got a few skill points, so you put those points into something else. Everyone else makes it, but you die. Would you consider that to be unfair? Let's say for the sake of another example that everyone -including you- made it across the pit in the previous situation. You all come to a treasure chest; inside the treasure chest you find one gold coin. Oh My! Not enough treasure for everyone! What are we gonna do? The humanity! It's not fair! ...sorry...I'm back in control now. What would you do? Somebody would get to carry the one gold coin, but not everyone could carry it. I'm all for trying to be fair, but there is a point at which "fairness" (for me at least) just isn't fun. The only way for the game to be 100% "fair" would be for everyone to have to play the exact same character. I feel that is just as restrictive (if not more restrictive) than random stats. Everyone is free to play the way they want to play. I have played both in point buy games and in 4d6 games; I enjoyed both games. Personally, I liked the randomness of rolling more because it was more exciting to me. When I DM, I used the 4D6 method, but I also have a "3-rerolls" rule. Everybody starts out with 3 rerolls; these rerolls can be used at any time (even during character creation,) but once they are gone you don't get any more. They can be used to reroll stats, saves, skill checks, etc. The catch is that if your reroll is lower you have to keep the lower reroll. As far as a character with high scores destroying CRs way above his/her own, I don't find that to be a problem in most cases. Then again, I normally roll up stats for the creatures I throw at my PCs instead of just using the default stats presented in the books. Getting back to the original poster's problem: If you are so worried about overshadowing your party members, do something to take down your power level. I mentioned taking a level of commoner before taking other classes. That is the easiest solution. I'm sure there are other ways you could adjust your power level.
James18 02-16-07, 06:52 PM	damn best I EVER got was 171616151514 during 2nd ed. That was follow by a ME: did you see that sweet. DM: Nope reroll. ME: What no way that was on the table everyone saw I didn't cheat. DM: reroll ME: :weep: I hate you. Just run with it. DM says no reroll fine. Take 2 levels of fighter then go bard or cleric. Have fun with it.
Polaris 02-16-07, 08:56 PM	While I do agree that point buy allows for everyone to start on equal ground, I do not feel that rolling stats is unfair. You have just as much chance to roll low stats as you do to roll high stats. As I showed earlier, that doesn't make the random char-gen fair. As for saying rolling is unfair...I agree that sometimes it is because some characters get better stats than others; however, I (personally) don't see that to be such a glaring problem. Honestly, I find it somewhat ridiculous to say that everything should be perfectly fair. Even with point buy it's possible for one person to construct a more effective character than another person. DnD is a game and games are supposed to be fair. I honestly don't see why I have to explain it further. Life may not be fair but a game should be....and such imbalances from rolling have proven to be problematic. At least it's been proven to be problematic enough that the gaming community as a whole has largely rejected random char-gen as a bygone relic. I noticed that football was being used as an example. I read Polaris's example about rolling to see how many players a team could field during that playoffs. I understand that example, but I think that point buy would also be extremely unfair in football. Let's say for the sake of example that a point buy system was implemented in the NFL right before the Super Bowl. A team of mathmaticians are hired to figure how each player's stats would translate into a numerical value. At some point in the game a bunch of guys run onto the field and grab Peyton Manning; the crowd is confused; they have no idea what is going on. Shortly thereafter the NFL commissioner comes onto the field and announces that the Colts can't have Peyton Manning on their team because he's too skilled. I'm sorry, but that seems totally ridiculous to me. That just proves you don't understand NFL football. The fact is that the NFL can and does use a point buy system for NFL football. Like the system in DnD it's not perfect and some teams (like the NE Patriots and Seattle Seahawks) have found loopholes that allow them to field winning teams year after year in spite of it. This point buy system is called the "collective bargining agreement", the "reverse draft order", "the 53 man roster", and the "salary cap". You will find that all major sports leagues have some sort of "point buy" system much like this. Now, let's get back to discussing D&D. Let's say that your DM puts you in a situation in which you have to jump over a pit. Oops, you don't have any ranks in jump! You were playing a class that only got a few skill points, so you put those points into something else. Everyone else makes it, but you die. Would you consider that to be unfair? That depends. If the DM is deliberately targeting a particular character with challenges that would otherwise be unlikely just to target the weaknesses of that particular character, then yes, it's unfair. It's also a sign of a bad DM. OTOH, you are trying to make a deliberately contrived example. The character with the better stats is better at *everything* (overall) not just a single single. Let's say for the sake of another example that everyone -including you- made it across the pit in the previous situation. You all come to a treasure chest; inside the treasure chest you find one gold coin. Oh My! Not enough treasure for everyone! What are we gonna do? The humanity! It's not fair! ...sorry...I'm back in control now. What would you do? Somebody would get to carry the one gold coin, but not everyone could carry it. Again, it's a contrived example. Given gold pieces are specie, you'd cut it in pieces (historically done btw with pieces of eight) since a gold piece is valued for it's metal. I'm all for trying to be fair, but there is a point at which "fairness" (for me at least) just isn't fun. The only way for the game to be 100% "fair" would be for everyone to have to play the exact same character. I feel that is just as restrictive (if not more restrictive) than random stats. Everyone is free to play the way they want to play. I have played both in point buy games and in 4d6 games; I enjoyed both games. Personally, I liked the randomness of rolling more because it was more exciting to me. Except you aren't. With random char-gen your entire character concept is held hostage to the dice. With pointbuy, your concept is held hostage only to the DM's limit and your own skill as a player. Look, I think some of you defenders of random char-gen are missing the essential point. It's quite possible for characters to be imbalanced in power even after a non-random char-gen creation. However, the player has no one to blame but themselves if that happens.. That's what makes the system fair (unlike random char-gen). -Polaris
Polaris 02-16-07, 09:01 PM	So you verify after every game that the characters are still the same they were before hand? If I had tempted players I certainly would. Keep backups of their sheets, make sure they don't add a rank to a skill to get into that PRC a little earlier than they could have otherwise. You don't get it. The statistical evidence suggests that cheating (using dice that give results too high for the expectation value) using the random char-gen system is rampant. The way you show that is to compile hundreds of rolled characters in the group and them compare them against expected probability of being rolled. It's not something that's going to be obvious for a single campaign. For me, and my group, party balance is a NON-issue. It saddens me that this is not the case everywhere. We do not compete with one another on who's character shines more. We just play. Go on you "PB is the only way" people and keep a paranoid eye on your friends. They may be having more fun than you. Then why are you playing DnD 3E and 3.5E? The designers make it very clear (and based on decades of gaming experience no less) that system, player, and class balance is of paramount importance in this game. If balance is truly a non-issue to you and your friends, then why roll at all? Just declare what stats you want and be done with us. For the rest of us that DO think balance is important, we'll stick with non-random char-gen thank you. -Polaris
BW0222 02-16-07, 09:28 PM	Polaris, While I think your effort is valiant and true, but it is rather pointless. Some folks honestly can't understand the difference between the fairness in the game and the fairness of the outcome. If you flipped a coin at the beginning of a football game and then shot all the players in the lossing team in the legs would that be fair? Well, the outcome would be fair. Either team has a 50% chance of winning the game. However, the game would be unfair. From that coin flip forward, you know the outcome. You'd have folks running and throwing the ball past cripples for three hours, everyone knows the outcome, and it would be boring. Personally, after two or three of these games, no one would stay after the coin flip. The rest of the game is pointless to play. Certainly, you don't know the outcome of the next game, but that doesn't make this game (or the next game) any more enjoyable to play or watch. In the case of dice rolling, when someone gets a 18, 18, 18, 17, 17, 16 and others averaged a 14 or so, is that fair? Well... the outcome is fair. Everyone had the same chance to roll that high and dominate the game. However, the game is certainly not fair. For the next 6 months it will be as boring as heck. Games are fair when the outcome is not predecided. With rolls like that... it's pretty much decided... baring him taking deliberate actions to make the rest of the game fair so that the outcome is not so pre-determined.
Johnny_Angel 02-17-07, 08:19 AM	Point Buy does have its merits; I'm not saying it doesn't. Personally, I just find that an element of randomness makes the game more exciting for me. I don't feel that stat rolling makes the game so unbelievably unbalanced that people can't play. As for the whole NFL thing, I understand the concept of the salary cap, but the flaw in that argument is that you can't put an accurate price on ability. An example of that was when the Angels beat the Yankees in the World Series years ago. Yes, I know that's a baseball example, but my point is that a team can have talented players without breaking the salary cap and other rules. My example was addressing the talent of the players; not the salary of the players or any other factors. My example brought the idea of point buy into the football game. I don't feel that it would be reasonable for the referees to throw a player out of a game because he's too much more talented than everyone else. That's the point I was trying to make. The bottom line is that some people like point buy and some people like stat rolling. I wasn't trying to convince you to use stat rolling; I was only trying to say that I prefer stat rolling; that's my personal choice. Other than that, my only point was that I didn't feel the NFL example was an accurate portrayal of how point buy works. Salary doesn't always measure talent; honestly, in many cases, it doesn't. There have been countless players in countless professional athletic endevours who have gotten paid millions of dollars only to end up bogging down the team they played for, and there have been just as many players who were barely paid anything, yet came through for their team time and time again. edit: My character concept is held hostage to the dice? I don't really see how my concept is effected really all that much. Will I be less effective with low stats? Yes, I will be, but I can still play the same concept. If I have an abysmally low score that will probably be explained somehow within my character background. Furthermore, I could make the same argument for or against point buy; I could say that point buy holds my concept hostage because I need more points for a concept than I can afford. As I've said, I have played the game both ways; I enjoy random stats more, but, if a DM told me his game was point buy, I wouldn't automatically assume I wouldn't have as much fun.
Johnny_Angel 02-17-07, 08:24 AM	Polaris, While I think your effort is valiant and true, but it is rather pointless. Some folks honestly can't understand the difference between the fairness in the game and the fairness of the outcome. If you flipped a coin at the beginning of a football game and then shot all the players in the lossing team in the legs would that be fair? Well, the outcome would be fair. Either team has a 50% chance of winning the game. However, the game would be unfair. From that coin flip forward, you know the outcome. You'd have folks running and throwing the ball past cripples for three hours, everyone knows the outcome, and it would be boring. Personally, after two or three of these games, no one would stay after the coin flip. The rest of the game is pointless to play. Certainly, you don't know the outcome of the next game, but that doesn't make this game (or the next game) any more enjoyable to play or watch. In the case of dice rolling, when someone gets a 18, 18, 18, 17, 17, 16 and others averaged a 14 or so, is that fair? Well... the outcome is fair. Everyone had the same chance to roll that high and dominate the game. However, the game is certainly not fair. For the next 6 months it will be as boring as heck. Games are fair when the outcome is not predecided. With rolls like that... it's pretty much decided... baring him taking deliberate actions to make the rest of the game fair so that the outcome is not so pre-determined. I don't feel that it makes the game predetermined at all. I will agree that the player with the high stats probably has more chance to overcome obstacles than a player with lower stats, but both players still have a 50/50 chance of living through an adventure or dying during the adventure. I suppose my only problem with this point of view is that I don't see why a DM is any less capable of creating encounters which involve the whole party due to one person having high stats. As I've said in my previous posts, if you like point buy, that's fine, but I think it's ridiculous to automatically assume a game won't be fun based on the stats of one PC. Edit: I will again address the subject of the original poster. In this case it doesn't seem as though the DM is worried about the PC having higher stat scores. If the player is really that concerned that his character will totally outshine everyone else, why not take a level of commoner or warrior as his first level before taking a level in something else? If it sincerely bothers the OP that much, there are options the OP can take to make his character more even with the other characters. Take a level of commoner and work it into your storyline; say that you were a librarian before you became an adventurer. You read stories about heroic adventures and decided you'd rather live the adventures instead of read about them.
Suzaku455 02-17-07, 11:51 AM	Well you guys need not worry I got killed yesterday >.>
Polaris 02-17-07, 01:30 PM	Point Buy does have its merits; I'm not saying it doesn't. Personally, I just find that an element of randomness makes the game more exciting for me. I don't feel that stat rolling makes the game so unbelievably unbalanced that people can't play. That's hyperbolae. No one is saying that a random char-gen makes a system that can't be played. Most of use are saying that the inherent imbalance created by the dice is undesireable and makes the game less fun to play.....and the experience of the gaming community bears this out (there is a reason why RPGs are not made with exclusive random char-gen systems any more when twenty five years ago, it was the norm). As for the whole NFL thing, I understand the concept of the salary cap, but the flaw in that argument is that you can't put an accurate price on ability. An example of that was when the Angels beat the Yankees in the World Series years ago. Yes, I know that's a baseball example, but my point is that a team can have talented players without breaking the salary cap and other rules. My example was addressing the talent of the players; not the salary of the players or any other factors. My example brought the idea of point buy into the football game. I don't feel that it would be reasonable for the referees to throw a player out of a game because he's too much more talented than everyone else. That's the point I was trying to make. Again, you completely miss the point. The Salary Cap attempts to balance out the team with numerical standards. It is effectively a point buy. That doesn't mean that the system is perfect. As for your example of a referee throwing out a player because he's too talented, that doesn't support your position at all. In Point Buy, Player Talent is the only thing that makes a difference because all players are given equal opportunity to make the characters they want. That isn't so with the random roll. If anyone is "throwing out" talented players, you are. The bottom line is that some people like point buy and some people like stat rolling. I wasn't trying to convince you to use stat rolling; I was only trying to say that I prefer stat rolling; that's my personal choice. Other than that, my only point was that I didn't feel the NFL example was an accurate portrayal of how point buy works. Salary doesn't always measure talent; honestly, in many cases, it doesn't. There have been countless players in countless professional athletic endevours who have gotten paid millions of dollars only to end up bogging down the team they played for, and there have been just as many players who were barely paid anything, yet came through for their team time and time again. Again you miss the point. Other GAMES and SPORTS think that balancing teams and players is a desirable thing to do after long experience. The point wasn't that the salary cap was perfect. The point was that it exists at all. edit: My character concept is held hostage to the dice? I don't really see how my concept is effected really all that much. Will I be less effective with low stats? Yes, I will be, but I can still play the same concept. If I have an abysmally low score that will probably be explained somehow within my character background. Furthermore, I could make the same argument for or against point buy; I could say that point buy holds my concept hostage because I need more points for a concept than I can afford. As I've said, I have played the game both ways; I enjoy random stats more, but, if a DM told me his game was point buy, I wouldn't automatically assume I wouldn't have as much fun. If you concept needs more points than PB allows, then you concept by definition is too powerful for the game that the DM wants to run. Sorry, but you don't get to play the Demi-God RCC in DnD. However, with a random char-gen, then with incredible dice you MIGHT get to play the Demi-God RCC while everyone else is stuck with ley-line walkers or worse. We all know how balanced RIFTS is.........NOT! OTOH, with random char-gen, you concept can very well be ruined by the random roll. You want to be a wizard, but your highest roll is a 14. Sucks to be you. That's just the example off the top of my head. -Polaris
Polaris 02-17-07, 01:33 PM	I don't feel that it makes the game predetermined at all. I will agree that the player with the high stats probably has more chance to overcome obstacles than a player with lower stats, but both players still have a 50/50 chance of living through an adventure or dying during the adventure. I suppose my only problem with this point of view is that I don't see why a DM is any less capable of creating encounters which involve the whole party due to one person having high stats. As I've said in my previous posts, if you like point buy, that's fine, but I think it's ridiculous to automatically assume a game won't be fun based on the stats of one PC. I don't see that at all. If the high stat player has a better chance of making through obstacles, then he does have a better chance of living (unless the DM specifically targets that character which is ALSO unfair and two wrongs don't make a right). Likewise, such a group quickly becomes a one person show. This is not only my experience, but the collective experience of the gaming community as a whole (this complaint is as old as DnD). That's one reason why random char-gen has been left to the ashbin of history. -Polaris
BoringInfoGuy 02-17-07, 02:34 PM	Well you guys need not worry I got killed yesterday >.> Sorry to hear that. For my own personal satisfaction, what class / race had you decided to play with your stats? For the record, I don't think you would have ended up overshadowing the group. The fact that you were so concerned about it showes that you aren't likely to. And did it seem like the DM targeted your character for death, or was it just fickle chance? * * * Now, for those who turned this into a Point Buy vs Rolling discussion. . . Did you notice that this is the "What's a Player to Do?" section? Suzaku455 had no say in the method used. He's the player. It was the DM's decision. How does ranting on rolling help Suzaku455 out? When I ask for advice, the last thing I want is someone to use my issue as an excuse to step onto a soapbox. Whether Suzaku455 likes or dislikes rolling, that is the method he is stuck with. Next time, save the soapbox for where it belongs, and focus your energy on helping the player out.
Suzaku455 02-17-07, 02:41 PM	The party wanted me to play a cleric, so I did. I got targeted by two goblins after dm rolled randomly to see which goblins would attack who. I got two goblins on me and they both rolled natural 20s and confirmed. Please note these rolls were out in the open. I always have bad luck with high stat characters and tend to die no matter the dm, I'm targeted or not.
BoringInfoGuy 02-17-07, 03:01 PM	Ouch. Well, better luck with your next character.
Johnny_Angel 02-17-07, 03:53 PM	I don't see that at all. If the high stat player has a better chance of making through obstacles, then he does have a better chance of living (unless the DM specifically targets that character which is ALSO unfair and two wrongs don't make a right). Likewise, such a group quickly becomes a one person show. This is not only my experience, but the collective experience of the gaming community as a whole (this complaint is as old as DnD). That's one reason why random char-gen has been left to the ashbin of history. -Polaris Look man, I don't have a problem with point buy; as I've said many times, I have played in point buy games, and I had fun. I just personally prefer rolling my stats. The main problem I have with your whole argument is that you seem to feel that it's totally impossible to enjoy a game simply based on the stats of one PC. I'm sorry, but I don't share that opinion at all. I don't share that opinion because I have played in games which my character wasn't as good as other characters, but I still had fun; one the flip-side, I don't feel that fair always equals fun; there's a point at which fairness can be taken to such an extreme that it becomes boring. Now, I'm not saying that pertains to point buy; I'm simply saying that taking "fairness" to an extreme could be just us unfun for some people as randomness is for others. As for your claim that the high stat PC would steal the show, how do you explain that the OP (owner of the said OC) got killed right away? Supposedly he was going to just walk through everything and be so totally overpowered that nobody else would ever get a chance to do anything. I agree with boringinfoguy, and I do apologize for turning this thread into something which it wasn't supposed to be, but I find it slightly offensive when somebody just flat out tries to imply that playing D&D a certain way is less fun than playing a different way. You say that random stats are a thing of the past, but I disagree; many people still use and enjoy using random stats. The bottom line is this: Make my salary whatever you want; I'll still enjoy the game.
Polaris 02-17-07, 04:09 PM	Look man, I don't have a problem with point buy; as I've said many times, I have played in point buy games, and I had fun. I just personally prefer rolling my stats. Irrelevant, The main problem I have with your whole argument is that you seem to feel that it's totally impossible to enjoy a game simply based on the stats of one PC. I'm sorry, but I don't share that opinion at all. I don't share that opinion because I have played in games which my character wasn't as good as other characters, but I still had fun; one the flip-side, I don't feel that fair always equals fun; there's a point at which fairness can be taken to such an extreme that it becomes boring. Now, I'm not saying that pertains to point buy; I'm simply saying that taking "fairness" to an extreme could be just us unfun for some people as randomness is for others. More hyperbolae. What I am saying is that the overall experience over the past 25 years has been that balance and fairness are desirable and that random char-gen systems are not. No one is saying that it's impossible to have fun with a random char-gen system. However, what I and other people are saying is that it creates needless problems in that department that non-random systems can avoid. As for your claim that the high stat PC would steal the show, how do you explain that the OP (owner of the said OC) got killed right away? Supposedly he was going to just walk through everything and be so totally overpowered that nobody else would ever get a chance to do anything. Two critical hits will kill any first level character. What happened to the OP's character doesn't prove a thing. It was also a fluke (two confirmed crits are of order of 1:40000 against). I agree with boringinfoguy, and I do apologize for turning this thread into something which it wasn't supposed to be, but I find it slightly offensive when somebody just flat out tries to imply that playing D&D a certain way is less fun than playing a different way. You say that random stats are a thing of the past, but I disagree; many people still use and enjoy using random stats. The bottom line is this: Make my salary whatever you want; I'll still enjoy the game. Random stats are a vestigue of the past. That's just a fact. How many RPGs use random char-gen exclusively? ZERO. DnD was the last one to change. How many used them twenty five years ago? Almost all (GURPS and HERO were the prime exceptions). See the point? -Polaris
Olskool 02-17-07, 04:21 PM	, Random stats are a vestigue of the past. That's just a fact. How many RPGs use random char-gen exclusively? ZERO. DnD was the last one to change. How many used them twenty five years ago? Almost all (GURPS and HERO were the prime exceptions). See the point? -Polaris First of all, you're totally wrong. More people play D&D than every other roleplaying game combined. More people roll for stats than use point buy when playing D&D. Therefore more people roll for stats than use pointbuy to determine them in ALL RPGs. Random stats are not a thing of the past. Point buy is just a fad that refuses to catch on. Second of all, you can never be forgiven for that astonishingly stank point pun. Ugh, somebody open a window.
Polaris 02-17-07, 04:35 PM	First of all, you're totally wrong. Nope. You are the one that's mistaken. More people play D&D than every other roleplaying game combined. Well, duh! DnD has more market exposure and recognition as well. However, when you want to look at what's considered 'cutting edge' by gaming companies, you look at what is being copied/used and not. Random char-gen systems are definately not in fashion in the gaming industry as a whole. That's just a fact. More people roll for stats than use point buy when playing D&D. Therefore more people roll for stats than use pointbuy to determine them in ALL RPGs. Facts not in evidence. The fact is that WOTC and WOTC santioned events and groups (including RPGA and Living Greyhawk) use Point Buy exclusively (for the reasons I have already mentioned). What's more, WOTC sponsered DnD games and computer simulations (Neverwinter Nights 1+2, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc) all use Point Buy exclusively. That's a major change from as little as 9 years ago with the Baldur's Gate serious that used Random Char-Gen exclusively. Random stats are not a thing of the past. Point buy is just a fad that refuses to catch on. Again, that's false for all the reasons I have mentioned and more. Name me ONE just ONE major RPG system/game that uses random char-gen exclusively. You can't. That's because the industry and community as a whole have given up on random char-gen. There will always be those that use it for nostalgia purposes, but the fact remains that you can't talk about game balance (which is a very important goal in DnD these days) and stick with a random char-gen system. That's true for all RPGs. -Polaris
ElIsRa 02-17-07, 04:43 PM	wait a minute. You rolled an awesome character and you want to throw it away? What is wrong with you? Just go make an awesome character and try not to lean on your stats too much. Try playing up to your character's stats and no one will care that you are super.
Olskool 02-18-07, 12:47 AM	The fact is that WOTC and WOTC santioned events and groups (including RPGA and Living Greyhawk) use Point Buy exclusively (for the reasons I have already mentioned). What's more, WOTC sponsered DnD games and computer simulations (Neverwinter Nights 1+2, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc) all use Point Buy exclusively. That's a major change from as little as 9 years ago with the Baldur's Gate serious that used Random Char-Gen exclusively. -Polaris The FACT is that tha vast majority of gamers have never even attended of the events that you're talking about here. Using that to say everyone uses point buy is just misguided. What's more, point buy for videogames is completely irrelevant here. D&D should not be like a video game at all. I don't care how stats are generated in neverwinter nuts because it's a videogame and not D&D. We're talking bout D&D here. Not final fantasy.
Polaris 02-18-07, 12:55 AM	The FACT is that tha vast majority of gamers have never even attended of the events that you're talking about here. Using that to say everyone uses point buy is just misguided. What's more, point buy for videogames is completely irrelevant here. D&D should not be like a video game at all. I don't care how stats are generated in neverwinter nuts because it's a videogame and not D&D. We're talking bout D&D here. Not final fantasy. Penalty: Strawman argument. 15 yards, loss of down. I never said nor have I argued that everyone uses pointbuy. What I did show was that the gaming community and the gaming industry have abandoned random char-gen for the most part, and CRPGs inspired and directly taken from RPGs and sponsered by RPG companies is certainly evidence of that as is the fact that sanctioned events all use point buy. It's virtually certain that the default char-gen for 4E in DnD will be point buy (because that's what every other system uses now as it's default) and it may well be the only approved char-gen system. -Polaris
Olskool 02-18-07, 01:18 AM	What I did show was that the gaming community and the gaming industry have abandoned random char-gen for the most part, and CRPGs inspired and directly taken from RPGs and sponsered by RPG companies is certainly evidence of that as is the fact that sanctioned events all use point buy. It's virtually certain that the default char-gen for 4E in DnD will be point buy (because that's what every other system uses now as it's default) and it may well be the only approved char-gen system. -Polaris Actually, in your head you showed that the gaming industry has abandoned rolling in favor of point buy. In reality,most players don't use point buy since it's an optional sub system in a book that players don't even have access to. And as soon as anyone tells me what 4E is all about I realize that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. You're opinions about 4E are about as informed as a monkey's would be at this point.
goblin_pride 02-18-07, 02:29 AM	You're opinions about 4E are about as informed as a monkey's would be at this point. But much less entertaining. Monkeys are cool, you can just sit and watch them all day long and never get bored.
Polaris 02-19-07, 03:23 AM	Actually, in your head you showed that the gaming industry has abandoned rolling in favor of point buy. In reality,most players don't use point buy since it's an optional sub system in a book that players don't even have access to. And as soon as anyone tells me what 4E is all about I realize that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. You're opinions about 4E are about as informed as a monkey's would be at this point. You've graduated from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks. You must love that penalty yardage. Of course I don't know what 4E is going to look like. No one does. I do know that baring a cataclysmic shift in the gaming industry and community that it won't have a random character generation system, however. I know that because no new system is built with such a system. The real problem is that some people either can't accept or don't understand that the old paradigms of gaming balance are completely outdated. It used to be acceptable for a class to be weak at low levels and be overpowered at high. That is no longer so. How many many level limited races have you seen lately. Same, same. Balance is considered a primary design goal because of FAIRNESS, and it's non-sensical to talk about game balance with a random char-gen system. That's why as I have proven WOTC (and every other gaming company) has abandoned the random char-gen system....and for good reason. -Polaris
Red12 02-19-07, 04:10 AM	Now, normally I disagree with Olskool about a lot of things. Namely his elitest attitude, but at this point Polaris, you may have him beat here. You have not "proven" anything, and any speculation about 4E is just that, speculation. (That was *hardly* an Ad Hod attack, and you can stop with your college phil class BS. "Everyone" on these boards feels the need to use it for some reason, and you'd actually sound more intelligent if you DIDN'T use it. Regardless, you can drop the wise ass attitude) Point buy is hardly new. There were PB variants back in all earlier editions of D&D (tho maybe not Basic). I would hardly catagorize it as a "Cataclysmic" shift for another variant to be included in 3.X. Yes, D&D is a GAME. We are all well aware of that. It is a game that is primarily focused on Role-playing. (Hence, the title RPG) I have found that rolling stats generally produces more thought-out characters than your cookie-cutter wizards. In my recient games, I have been allowing my players to pick their stats. Pick your stats to reflect the character you want to play. Its not hard. If you can't be mature enough to NOT take straight 18's, then I'm not playing with you to begin with. And what is it with you and cheating man? Were you traumatized as a child when someone used loaded dice while playing chutes and ladders? Seriously. If you are worried about such "pressure to cheat" than you need to get a grip. I bet you're one of those people that stop 3 year old kids from playing and having fun to teach them the "right way" to play base ball.
Polaris 02-19-07, 04:22 AM	Now, normally I disagree with Olskool about a lot of things. Namely his elitest attitude, but at this point Polaris, you may have him beat here. Pot-Kettle; Kettle-Pot You have not "proven" anything, and any speculation about 4E is just that, speculation. (That was *hardly* an Ad Hod attack, and you can stop with your college phil class BS. "Everyone" on these boards feels the need to use it for some reason, and you'd actually sound more intelligent if you DIDN'T use it. Regardless, you can drop the wise ass attitude) Actually I have. 27 years ago (1990), all the major RPGs used random character generation exclusively. Now none of them do. Not only that, but I showed within DnD itself how the game has evolved away from it. Consider that by the late 1990s there was in increasing hue and cry against random character generation (which help spur on GURPS, Hero and those inspired other non-random systems). There has never been a hue-and-cry for the random char-gen system. Point buy is hardly new. There were PB variants back in all earlier editions of D&D (tho maybe not Basic). I would hardly catagorize it as a "Cataclysmic" shift for another variant to be included in 3.X. Not correct. The first official Point Buy system for DnD was late second edition with the skills and powers expansion and like supplements. Those supplements were directly inspired by the sucess of non-random systems like GURPS and HERO (those particularly). Edit addition: Yes, it would take a cataclysmic shift in the gaming community/industry for 4E to come out with a random char-gen system as it's primary system. All the industry trendlines point the otherway including wotc's own CRPG products and emphasis on game balance. That's just a fact. Yes, D&D is a GAME. We are all well aware of that. It is a game that is primarily focused on Role-playing. (Hence, the title RPG) I have found that rolling stats generally produces more thought-out characters than your cookie-cutter wizards. It remains a game and that means that all participants should be treated equitably and be able to contribute fairly to the session. That's been a major failure of random char-gen systems from the beginning. It just took a while for the gaming community as a whole to recognize it. Thought out characters? I think not. Rather you are held hostage to the dice or simply cheat....and there is stong statistical indications that when using random char-gen systems, cheating is in fact rampant. In my recient games, I have been allowing my players to pick their stats. Pick your stats to reflect the character you want to play. Its not hard. If you can't be mature enough to NOT take straight 18's, then I'm not playing with you to begin with. That's nice. You obviously don't care about game balance then. That's your perogative, but most of us including WOTC do. And what is it with you and cheating man? Were you traumatized as a child when someone used loaded dice while playing chutes and ladders? Seriously. If you are worried about such "pressure to cheat" than you need to get a grip. I bet you're one of those people that stop 3 year old kids from playing and having fun to teach them the "right way" to play base ball. It's simple math. Go examine all the characters that have been (claimed) to have been rolled by 4d6 drop the lowest and see if they really follow statistical expections. -Polaris P.S. Oldskool did attack my person and thus did engage in an ad hominem attack. If you studied any logic or philosophy, you'd know that if you attempt to make an argument based on demeaning your opponent, it's an ad hominem attack.
Wee_Willy_Winky 02-19-07, 11:53 AM	First of all, I agree with every single point Polaris has made – good man. Especially that it always seems that whenever people "roll" for their ability scores they often, conveniently, seem to have nothing under a 14. They saunter up to you "Hey, check it out, I rolled these!" …Yeah right.
Red12 02-19-07, 02:15 PM	Pot-Kettle; Kettle-Pot Actually I have. 27 years ago (1990), all the major RPGs used random character generation exclusively. That would be 17 years, but thats just my nitpick. :P Now none of them do. Not only that, but I showed within DnD itself how the game has evolved away from it. Consider that by the late 1990s there was in increasing hue and cry against random character generation (which help spur on GURPS, Hero and those inspired other non-random systems). There has never been a hue-and-cry for the random char-gen system. I disagree. I was around then, and I don't recall such a huge outcry. Perhaps it was only in some circles, but there wasnt any where I was. Not correct. The first official Point Buy system for DnD was late second edition with the skills and powers expansion and like supplements. Those supplements were directly inspired by the sucess of non-random systems like GURPS and HERO (those particularly). I could have swore that the First or Second Edtion DMG had a "75 Point Buy" system, but I could be wrong. Regardless, does having it be called an "official" variant really mean anything? Hardly. Edit addition: Yes, it would take a cataclysmic shift in the gaming community/industry for 4E to come out with a random char-gen system as it's primary system. All the industry trendlines point the otherway including wotc's own CRPG products and emphasis on game balance. That's just a fact. It remains a game and that means that all participants should be treated equitably and be able to contribute fairly to the session. That's been a major failure of random char-gen systems from the beginning. It just took a while for the gaming community as a whole to recognize it. To use others points, "Super-Stats", (which are generally a rarity as well as "super-crap-stats") are generally only effective up until about levels 4-6. Then people with only one or two good stats start mopping up. Seriously man, you can't get really upset about the "unfairness" of random stats when you have the INCREDIBLE and RAPANT class inbalance that you have to day. Look at all your classes. After level 5, when does uber stats really become an issue? The Fighter with striaght 18's might have slightly better skill points. The one 17 wizard/cleric/druid/name-a-class still trumps him. High stats are really just icing on the cake, not the be-all-end-all of balance. And this is talking about ABSURDLY high stats, which are, as a lot of people pointed out, quite rare. Thought out characters? I think not. Rather you are held hostage to the dice or simply cheat....and there is stong statistical indications that when using random char-gen systems, cheating is in fact rampant. You have a study? Lets see. That's nice. You obviously don't care about game balance then. That's your perogative, but most of us including WOTC do. I do care about game balance. How is it any different from point buy? Because point buy has a set limit? Meh. Ask your players to pick there stats next time, and see if you get anything more than a 36 PB. Serious. Unless you have "cheating" (Re: immature) players, it will never be an issue of balance. It's simple math. Go examine all the characters that have been (claimed) to have been rolled by 4d6 drop the lowest and see if they really follow statistical expections. So you are basing your statistical evidence on your personal experiance on WotC boards? Why am I not convinced? P.S. Oldskool did attack my person and thus did engage in an ad hominem attack. If you studied any logic or philosophy, you'd know that if you attempt to make an argument based on demeaning your opponent, it's an ad hominem attack. I have taken both logic and philosophy classes, thank you. If I were to say "your point is wrong because of X,Y,Z. You are an ass". Thats not Ad Hom. An Ad Hominem fallacy is in effect when the BASIS of the argument is based upon a personal attack. (I.e. You're wrong because you are an ass) Read Olskool's post again: Actually, in your head you showed that the gaming industry has abandoned rolling in favor of point buy. In reality,most players don't use point buy since it's an optional sub system in a book that players don't even have access to. And as soon as anyone tells me what 4E is all about I realize that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. You're opinions about 4E are about as informed as a monkey's would be at this point. You know, now that I look at it, I really dont even *see* a personal attack. He just said that for someone to claim to know about 4th edtion is just plain silly. Which is quite true, as you admit in your post.
locksmyth 02-19-07, 02:39 PM	Yeah, I think I'm begining to understand the inherit unfairness of die rolls now. Yes games should be completely fair. I'm going to write to HasBro and ask them to remove the initial die roll from monopoly, the first person to go has a slight advantage over the following players. Actually my progression around the board is unfair too. I've had landed on go-to-jail 5 time in a row before, while everyone else keeps going round getting $200 a round. I think we need to make them change the offical way to rule movement around the board to an average (4) or may be a point buy system. I'll only move 1 space this round and save the other 3 movements for my next turn and move 7 then. Look if you want point buy that's fine, but don't demand the offical game rules be changed because you don't like other people being a little better then you.
Polaris 02-19-07, 04:13 PM	Yeah, I think I'm begining to understand the inherit unfairness of die rolls now. Yes games should be completely fair. I'm going to write to HasBro and ask them to remove the initial die roll from monopoly, the first person to go has a slight advantage over the following players. Actually my progression around the board is unfair too. I've had landed on go-to-jail 5 time in a row before, while everyone else keeps going round getting $200 a round. I think we need to make them change the offical way to rule movement around the board to an average (4) or may be a point buy system. I'll only move 1 space this round and save the other 3 movements for my next turn and move 7 then. If you are going to dispute my points please do so honestly. I have never had a problem with a random task resolution system. The 2d6 roll in monopoly is a task resolution system. However, if your starting money and properties in Monopoly were subject to a 2d6 roll, then I think most people would have a huge problem with that. What's the difference? Simple. In a typical campaign, you will go through hundreds of stochastically independant task resolutions. You will roll well for some and less for others....and the statistical regression to mean makes it fair while keeping the immediate outcome unknown. If you don't see a regression to mean, then you have solid evidence of loaded dice. All this goes out the airlock with a random char-gen system. In that system the success of your characer depends on ONE set of rolls that is never repeated and there is no statistical regression to mean. Look if you want point buy that's fine, but don't demand the offical game rules be changed because you don't like other people being a little better then you. Again, that's a strawman. Point Buy in DnD is an official game rule. It's right there in the DMG. I don't have to demand anything. -Polaris
goblin_pride 02-19-07, 05:24 PM	I don't recall the OP asking anything at all about point-buy vs rolled characters, do you?
Suzaku455 02-19-07, 05:26 PM	I don't recall the OP asking anything at all about point-buy vs rolled characters, do you? That's because I feel Point buy is superior to rolling and thus didn't ask point buy vs rolling.
Polaris 02-19-07, 05:31 PM	I don't recall the OP asking anything at all about point-buy vs rolled characters, do you? Not directly, but his entire problem would have been avoided had a non-random char-gen system (such as point buy) been used. That's one (of several) reason why point buy seems superior (and not just to me). It certainly seems to be one driving reason why random char-gen systems have fallen so far out of favor in the gaming industry. -Polaris
locksmyth 02-19-07, 05:48 PM	Actually my post wasn't directed at you, it wasn't directed at any individual. It was about the entire discussion, especially the it unfair and I hope 4E is point buy. All this goes out the airlock with a random char-gen system. In that system the success of your character depends on ONE set of rolls that is never repeated and there is no statistical regression to mean.Stats aren't THAT important it's produces -1 ~ +4 variance in most stat rolls. That's a maximum of 20% difference on a d20 roll in game with the raw stat mod. One you start adding on your BAB/save/skillpoints the difference becomes extremely trivial. Especially once you start getting magical items. Once you get your character rolling, the difference in the stats are going to disappear over time. I stand by my analogy that going to jail 4 times in a row is the same as rolling 2 HP for a paladin 3 times in a row. (I know i didn't say that was the analogy, but I figured if you're reading my post you've read the thread.) I don't say PB is wrong, or the rolling is better or 'the right method'. I actually say that the rules exist for both, and stop trying to convert everyone over to the point buy (again not you in particular but the PB camp in general. Go back and look you'll see the PB camp getting in the first jabs.) However none of the arguments for replacing rolling with PB make any sense. It's "unfair" Nope. Everyone got the same chance, the game begins with the rolling of the die not the introduction of the character. It's also not unfair as I pointed out stats won't make a big difference to you character usefulness in the party if you know how to build a character. After that is the point of the game right? The party? If you want to remove the organic aspect of creating a character, then use PB. In my opinion you'll never have a truly interesting character. But I don't prevent people from using PB even in my game (But they are restricted to 25 points and they have to have an average mod of 3 and their lowest stat cannot be below 9.) "It doesn't let me build the character I want to play!" False. If you want you character to be a charismatic athletic fighter, you put your highest stats in Str,Dex,Cha in that order, when you go up three levels you add this new point to which ever stat you feel will help complete your character. You put skill points in to the skills your character requires to fulfill your concept. PB is just easier and if ease is what's important in character development then fine. PB to your heart's content. Frankly I think the most common reason people want to use PB is to min-max. I have no evidence of that it's just my belief. Again, that's a strawman. Point Buy in DnD is an official game rule. It's right there in the DMG. I don't have to demand anything.The fact is some people want the official rules to be changed in 4E. With PB being the official rule and presumably (although no-one on the PB camp has said it to my knowledge) die roll is either to be removed of degraded to the variant (I assume the latter). That's not a strawman, and that would be the definition of change wouldn't it altering the rules in the next edition? my statement is correct isn't it? You know, that people who want PB to the the official rule and rolling to be the variant are wanting, maybe even demanding, a change to the official rules? I mean if I can't call that changing the rules what term should be used?
Polaris 02-19-07, 06:10 PM	Actually my post wasn't directed at you, it wasn't directed at any individual. It was about the entire discussion, especially the it unfair and I hope 4E is point buy. The random system is unfair and I do hope that 4E is point buy. Regardless of the later point, it's virtually certain at this point that 4E will be a non-random system (which does not necessarily mean it will be point buy). Stats aren't THAT important it's produces -1 ~ +4 variance in most stat rolls. That's a maximum of 20% difference on a d20 roll in game with the raw stat mod. One you start adding on your BAB/save/skillpoints the difference becomes extremely trivial. Especially once you start getting magical items. Once you get your character rolling, the difference in the stats are going to disappear over time. I stand by my analogy that going to jail 4 times in a row is the same as rolling 2 HP for a paladin 3 times in a row. (I know i didn't say that was the analogy, but I figured if you're reading my post you've read the thread.) Yes they are. Stats aren't as important as they used to be, but they are very important especially early on and especially when you consider that many things in DnD have minimum stat requirements. In fact WOTC considers it so important that the very +/- varience you mention is worth up to 2 level adjustments. Specifically in order to get to the middle levels, you have to survive to see them, and high stats make this much more probable (a point that WOTC itself made in the Epic Handbook IIRC). Just as it wouldn't be right to play alongside a half-Ogre without a level adjustment at first level, what the OP described isn't right either. I don't say PB is wrong, or the rolling is better or 'the right method'. I actually say that the rules exist for both, and stop trying to convert everyone over to the point buy (again not you in particular but the PB camp in general. Go back and look you'll see the PB camp getting in the first jabs.) Point Buy is the better system. It's not a perfect system. No one to my knowledge ever claimed that. However, it has many, many advantages over a random char-gen system and the avoidance of the OP's problem is one of several. However none of the arguments for replacing rolling with PB make any sense. It's "unfair" Nope. Everyone got the same chance, the game begins with the rolling of the die not the introduction of the character. It's also not unfair as I pointed out stats won't make a big difference to you character usefulness in the party if you know how to build a character. After that is the point of the game right? The party? If you want to remove the organic aspect of creating a character, then use PB. Yes it is, and that's just me talking but about 30 years of institutional experience talking as well. There is a reason why RPGs are not being made with exclusive random char-gen systems any more (contrast this with 1980 or even 1990!), and to my knowledge none of the new ones even use the random system as their primary ones. Even the new material published by WOTC for DnD assumes (albeit often implicitly) a point buy or standard array. You and others seem to be confusion "fairness in outcome" with "fairness in opportunity". As was explained before, in a sport (such as American football), it would be prefectly fair "in outcome" to put a 50 kilo pack on the side that loses the first coin-toss. It wouldn't be a fair game, however and few people would watch it after the coin toss. The outcome would be decided by the first random event and that would be that. The same thing applies with a random char-gen system....it confuses 'fairness' in outcome with true fairness (i.e. fairness in opportunity). In my opinion you'll never have a truly interesting character. But I don't prevent people from using PB even in my game (But they are restricted to 25 points and they have to have an average mod of 3 and their lowest stat cannot be below 9.) Why not? It's true that point buy as it stands isn't perfect, what what does mechanical creation have to do with making an interesting and fleshed out character? That has more to do with the player I think. "It doesn't let me build the character I want to play!" False. If you want you character to be a charismatic athletic fighter, you put your highest stats in Str,Dex,Cha in that order, when you go up three levels you add this new point to which ever stat you feel will help complete your character. You put skill points in to the skills your character requires to fulfill your concept. True. What if you want to be a kick-but savvy wizard. Nothing you roll is over a 14. Too bad for you. I've seen this sort of thing happen many times. Random char-gen holds your character concept hostage to the dice. That's just a simple fact. PB is just easier and if ease is what's important in character development then fine. PB to your heart's content. PB makes it universally possible. The only limiting factors are those imposed by the DM and those of the player's skill and imagination....which is where it should be. Frankly I think the most common reason people want to use PB is to min-max. I have no evidence of that it's just my belief. Anybody can min-max no matter what the system. Your point is what again? At least a non-random system doesn't encourage out and out cheating the way a random system does (or 'fudging') and it also prevents problems of a player walking away if they don't roll what they like (and it's not like the supply of players is eliminated). Are their mechanical problems and loopholes in point-buy? Absolutely. It's still better than a random char-gen system, however. The fact is some people want the official rules to be changed in 4E. With PB being the official rule and presumably (although no-one on the PB camp has said it to my knowledge) die roll is either to be removed of degraded to the variant (I assume the latter). Yes I do want it changed. However, that really isn't the point. Industry and gaming trends being as they are along with WOTC coporate trends, it's virtually certain that the rule will be changed in the manner you suggest (at least to a non-random char-gen system as primary). Point in fact, it already has happened with WOTC de facto if not de jure. That's not a strawman, and that would be the definition of change wouldn't it altering the rules in the next edition? my statement is correct isn't it? You know, that people who want PB to the the official rule and rolling to be the variant are wanting, maybe even demanding, a change to the official rules? I mean if I can't call that changing the rules what term should be used? Yes it was because you were tearing down an argument that I never made. -Polaris
locksmyth 02-19-07, 06:40 PM	The random system is unfair and I do hope that 4E is point buy. Regardless of the later point, it's virtually certain at this point that 4E will be a non-random system (which does not necessarily mean it will be point buy).I seriously hope not one of the most enriching features of D&D will die that day. Yes they are. Stats aren't as important as they used to be, but they are very important especially early on and especially when you consider that many things in DnD have minimum stat requirements. In fact WOTC considers it so important that the very +/- varience you mention is worth up to 2 level adjustments. Specifically in order to get to the middle levels, you have to survive to see them, and high stats make this much more probable (a point that WOTC itself made in the Epic Handbook IIRC). Just as it wouldn't be right to play alongside a half-Ogre without a level adjustment at first level, what the OP described isn't right either.I would have to see the other players stats to determine if they were unfair or if they would have required a re-roll under the PHB rules, it sounds like they might have. However the origianl post is an abberation, not the norm. I'd gladly play with some on like that in the party. Point Buy is the better system. It's not a perfect system. No one to my knowledge ever claimed that. However, it has many, many advantages over a random char-gen system and the avoidance of the OP's problem is one of several.No, it is your preferred system, not a better system. Yes it is, and that's just me talking but about 30 years of institutional experience talking as well. There is a reason why RPGs are not being made with exclusive random char-gen systems any more (contrast this with 1980 or even 1990!), and to my knowledge none of the new ones even use the random system as their primary ones. Even the new material published by WOTC for DnD assumes (albeit often implicitly) a point buy or standard array.Because a computer game is not as dynamic as a desktop RPG and are much much more important to your character. You and others seem to be confusion "fairness in outcome" with "fairness in opportunity". As was explained before, in a sport (such as American football), it would be prefectly fair "in outcome" to put a 50 kilo pack on the side that loses the first coin-toss. It wouldn't be a fair game, however and few people would watch it after the coin toss. The outcome would be decided by the first random event and that would be that. The same thing applies with a random char-gen system....it confuses 'fairness' in outcome with true fairness (i.e. fairness in opportunity).And yet American football doesn't have a salary cap? Team's do not start the game with equal opportunity, the team with the most money has the advantage. In that aspect Gridiron is intrinsically unfair even more so then the tiny amount of variance the rolling allows for. Character development is part of the game of D&D much like team selection is part of the game of gridiron. Some people like the challenge of starting off with flaws. Why not? It's true that point buy as it stands isn't perfect, what what does mechanical creation have to do with making an interesting and fleshed out character? That has more to do with the player I think. A character that starts as it's creators ideal incarnation? A lower dex then you want give your character a background, no-one wants their character to have broken a leg as a child, but now you have that as an explanation. What makes something interesting is it's problems not it's perfections. True. What if you want to be a kick-but savvy wizard. Nothing you roll is over a 14. Too bad for you. I've seen this sort of thing happen many times. Random char-gen holds your character concept hostage to the dice. That's just a simple fact.14 is a decent score, it's not 18 but it's only -2. Some times you aren't perfect and have to work. Anybody can min-max no matter what the system. Your point is what again? At least a non-random system doesn't encourage out and out cheating the way a random system does (or 'fudging') and it also prevents problems of a player walking away if they don't roll what they like (and it's not like the supply of players is eliminated). Are their mechanical problems and loopholes in point-buy? Absolutely. It's still better than a random char-gen system, however. If you mean where should I put my lowest stat oh I don't need charisma, that's not min-maxing. "I want to be a dex monkey so I'll put as many point in that as possible, well I don't need int, wis and char so they all stay 8." that's min-maxing and ONLY possible with PB. Yes I do want it changed. However, that really isn't the point. Industry and gaming trends being as they are along with WOTC coporate trends, it's virtually certain that the rule will be changed in the manner you suggest (at least to a non-random char-gen system as primary). Point in fact, it already has happened with WOTC de facto if not de jure.So again my statement was not a strawman? Yes it was because you were tearing down an argument that I never made.Oh so it's a strawman because I said something in the thread to which you have also replyed and assumed I was talking to you and that it was an attempt to tear down an argument you never made? So I say something that is in reply to other posts in the thread, not in reply to anything you said.... then you assume it's strawman? I see, obviously the comment that didn't refer to you, didn't refer to anything you said and tore down an argument you never made was a strawman I was waving at you.
Polaris 02-19-07, 09:10 PM	I seriously hope not one of the most enriching features of D&D will die that day. It probably will. Again, how many new RPGs are being made with primary random char-gen systems? However when 4E gets made (and it will happens eventually), there is nothing from stopping you from using random char-gen in your games. I would have to see the other players stats to determine if they were unfair or if they would have required a re-roll under the PHB rules, it sounds like they might have. However the origianl post is an abberation, not the norm. I'd gladly play with some on like that in the party. It happens more often than you think. It's dead easy to fudge with the random roll system. No, it is your preferred system, not a better system. No, it's a better system because it: 1. Works within the balance guidelines of the game. 2. Easily adjustable by the DM for the power gradient he wants in his game. 3. Permits characters to be made without the DM being physically present (a large consideration in today's hectic world). 4. Stops situations like the OP pointed out. Looks like a better system to me on a purely objective basis. Because a computer game is not as dynamic as a desktop RPG and are much much more important to your character. RPGA is desktop; so is Living Greyhawk; and for that matter so are most tourney and PBEM games. Guess what? They use PB too for all the reasons already mentioned (or a stat array which is also non-random). And yet American football doesn't have a salary cap? Team's do not start the game with equal opportunity, the team with the most money has the advantage. In that aspect Gridiron is intrinsically unfair even more so then the tiny amount of variance the rolling allows for. Character development is part of the game of D&D much like team selection is part of the game of gridiron. Some people like the challenge of starting off with flaws. False. All NFL teams are expected to hire and contract players within a salary cap and CBA that strictly defines how much players are worth (especially for Free Agents and draft picks). Some teams min max the system very effectively (see NE Patriots and Seattle Seahawks), but an effective point buy system exists precisely to give small market teams a chance.....like the Indianapolis Colts for example. So your example is false. A character that starts as it's creators ideal incarnation? A lower dex then you want give your character a background, no-one wants their character to have broken a leg as a child, but now you have that as an explanation. What makes something interesting is it's problems not it's perfections. First of all, unless you are using Traits and Flaws (which is a varient found only in Unearthed Aracana), you can't give your starting character a broken leg. However, in other systems that DO have such Flaws built into the systems, many players can and do take such traits deliberately. They not only add background to the character, but also make the character stronger in other areas. The fact remains that a non random system, gives the player the option to build a character this way. Random Die rolls pushes a concept or (more often IMX) voids a concept that would otherwise be interesting. Mark this down as Cop Out #133. 14 is a decent score, it's not 18 but it's only -2. Some times you aren't perfect and have to work. A 14 means you can't get a spellcasting score to 19 except at 20th level which means you will have trouble casting spells that you normally should be able to cast. Trust me on this one, if you don't have a primary casting score of at least 15, then you really can't be an effective primary caster. That's just the way the game is designed. If you mean where should I put my lowest stat oh I don't need charisma, that's not min-maxing. "I want to be a dex monkey so I'll put as many point in that as possible, well I don't need int, wis and char so they all stay 8." that's min-maxing and ONLY possible with PB. Putting your lowest score into charisma because you don't need it is min-maxing. In fact it's classic min-maxing by definition. So again my statement was not a strawman? Yes it was because you tried to present an argument I didn't make as mine and then refuted it. It's classic. -Polaris
Olskool 02-19-07, 11:33 PM	It probably will. Again, how many new RPGs are being made with primary random char-gen systems? -Polaris When you stop and realize that virtually nobody plays or buys these games, it really doesn't matter what kind of char gen system they use. People play D&D to have the most fun time they can. Not to have the most balanced time they can. Rolling dice is more fun. Balance concerns are secondary, if they're even a concern at all, for the average gamer. For that reason alone, rolling for stats ain't going nowhere.
pres_man 02-20-07, 12:06 AM	A 14 means you can't get a spellcasting score to 19 except at 20th level which means you will have trouble casting spells that you normally should be able to cast. Trust me on this one, if you don't have a primary casting score of at least 15, then you really can't be an effective primary caster. That's just the way the game is designed. I don't understand this one point. Unless you are playing in a low magic item campaign, you in fact could get access to all your spells in a timely fashion by getting a magic item boosting that stat.
Polaris 02-20-07, 02:40 AM	When you stop and realize that virtually nobody plays or buys these games, it really doesn't matter what kind of char gen system they use. People play D&D to have the most fun time they can. Not to have the most balanced time they can. When are you going to realize that all these game systems reflect an industry standard. Now if WOTC did something completely different, then perhaps you'd have a point, but point in fact WOTC which is the industry leader by a wide margin is also acting in a way that reflects industry standard, i.e. a non-random char-gen system. The fact is that by gamers as a whole (as reflected by the gaming industry and industry trends), random dice rolling has been judged in the balance and found wanting. Rolling dice is more fun. Balance concerns are secondary, if they're even a concern at all, for the average gamer. For that reason alone, rolling for stats ain't going nowhere. Unbalanced games aren't fun for the most part. Sure you might find individual exceptions, but not as a general rule. That's why fun games strive to be balanced (RPG and otherwise). Certainly it is a central component in WOTC's design philosophy this days. Balance is very much then a concern for the average gaming, and while rolling dice may be more fun for you, overall it does seem to be going the way of the Dodo. Another good (and related) example is the rule about first level hit-dice. It used to be until 3E, that the primary rule was that you had to roll dice to determine your first level hit points (and that fixed max at first level was the optional rule...and not even that for all of ADnD). Of course this wasn't very much fun for the unlucky player whose first level fighter could die to an angry housecat on a bad roll (and it happened more than you might want to admit). The rule then had bad balance consequences and thus was changed. Expect the same with this and for the same reasons. IMHO the only reason that PB or Array wasn't standard in 3.0 from the beginning was because of the sacred cow factor. That factor is rapidly fading if WOTC industry trends are any indication. -Polaris
Polaris 02-20-07, 02:44 AM	I don't understand this one point. Unless you are playing in a low magic item campaign, you in fact could get access to all your spells in a timely fashion by getting a magic item boosting that stat. Unless and until your item gets destroyed or even disabled. I grant that's a lot less likely to happen in DnD 3E than in prior editions. However, I note in passing that while normally targeting an individual item with dispell magic is a terrible idea, in this case it can absolutely hamstring the wizard that started with a 14 (or less) intelligence. [Even after the item comes back, your high level spells are gone...making this particular move more effective than enervation.] Basically it's a very bad idea to have your top tier spells tied to the functionality of one item which is why I said what I said. I think you will find that the Char-Op people agree with me on this one. -Polaris
Johnny_Angel 02-20-07, 04:00 AM	You may well have been blind. Seriously, how many of your players like to use "lucky dice" when rolling their characters? How many players like to blow on dice or roll in a particular way? Some of these techniques CAN and DO alter the way the dice land, and none of you may actually realize this. Can you tell loaded dice just by handling them? Unlikely unless the dice are really badly balanced. Give me a microwave and a set of cheap dice, and I will give you a set of d6s that roll 5's and 6's most of the time, and you WON'T be able to tell just by holding them. I am not saying said people are even horrible people. I am simply saying that the temptation to get those "lucky rolls" is so overwhelming as to be neigh irresistable to anyway. Don't believe me? I wouldn't be suprised, but go back and analyze how often "good" characters are rolled vs what is predicted using stochastically independant (fair) dice. I think you will be suprised and not in a good way. Point buy and other non-random systems takes this temptation completely way in addition to all the other advantages I have pointed out. -Polaris Uh, yeah...actually you can tell when dice are loaded. I'm not really sure what else I can say about that other than the fact that you can. I suppose I'm another lucky dm because I've never had a group who cheated as rampantly as you suggest; just different groups of people I suppose.
Johnny_Angel 02-20-07, 04:12 AM	Nope. You are the one that's mistaken. Well, duh! DnD has more market exposure and recognition as well. However, when you want to look at what's considered 'cutting edge' by gaming companies, you look at what is being copied/used and not. Random char-gen systems are definately not in fashion in the gaming industry as a whole. That's just a fact. Facts not in evidence. The fact is that WOTC and WOTC santioned events and groups (including RPGA and Living Greyhawk) use Point Buy exclusively (for the reasons I have already mentioned). What's more, WOTC sponsered DnD games and computer simulations (Neverwinter Nights 1+2, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc) all use Point Buy exclusively. That's a major change from as little as 9 years ago with the Baldur's Gate serious that used Random Char-Gen exclusively. Again, that's false for all the reasons I have mentioned and more. Name me ONE just ONE major RPG system/game that uses random char-gen exclusively. You can't. That's because the industry and community as a whole have given up on random char-gen. There will always be those that use it for nostalgia purposes, but the fact remains that you can't talk about game balance (which is a very important goal in DnD these days) and stick with a random char-gen system. That's true for all RPGs. -Polaris IIRC the Romance of The Three Kingdoms games still use random stat generation when you decide to create a character; that's one. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but not everyone plays at RPGA sanctioned events. Plenty of people just simply like to play D&D and don't worry about the RPGA at all. To say that the majority of people use point buy is just as flawed as the poster who claimed the majority uses stat rolling. Unless you've personally interviewed every person who plays D&D, I don't feel that's a valid statement. You keep saying that rolling stats creates problems; I've never had a problem with it - not one time. Again, it all comes down to personal preference. Also, you should take into consideration that not everyone who plays D&D is a member of the RPGA.
Wee_Willy_Winky 02-20-07, 04:58 AM	the game begins with the rolling of the die not the introduction of the character. …For you maybe. Where is that written? Sorry, but for me a game of Axis and Allies etc does not begin until the very first player's turn (Russia). Setting up all the pieces on the map is not "playing the game". It's just that "set up", the same as building your character. You don't roll a d6 to see who starts with some free technologies etc?
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-20-07, 08:08 AM	Well you guys need not worry I got killed yesterday >.> With your high stats that should have been impossible!!!!!! :eek:
Johnny_Angel 02-20-07, 09:00 AM	Penalty: Strawman argument. 15 yards, loss of down. I never said nor have I argued that everyone uses pointbuy. What I did show was that the gaming community and the gaming industry have abandoned random char-gen for the most part, and CRPGs inspired and directly taken from RPGs and sponsered by RPG companies is certainly evidence of that as is the fact that sanctioned events all use point buy. It's virtually certain that the default char-gen for 4E in DnD will be point buy (because that's what every other system uses now as it's default) and it may well be the only approved char-gen system. -Polaris I don't see how you came to that conclusion because they already have 7th Edition in Japan, and it still uses stat rolling - just kidding. At any rate, even if it is the only "approved" char gen system, the group I regularly game with will still probably choose to roll stats. We have nothing against point buy; we just prefer random stats. What's WOTC going to do? Bug my room and listen for the sound of dice rolling; then kick in the door and hit me on the nose with a newspaper and tell me I'm doing it wrong?
Wee_Willy_Winky 02-20-07, 09:05 AM	At any rate, even if it is the only "approved" char gen system, the group I regularly game with will still probably choose to roll stats. We have nothing against point buy; we just prefer random stats. What's WOTC going to do? Bug my room and listen for the sound of dice rolling; then kick in the door and hit me on the nose with a newspaper and tell me I'm doing it wrong? You obviously haven't heard of the WotC ninjas? They're like a Gideon, but instead of sneaking in to place a bible, they sneak in and make sure you play D&D "officially".
Johnny_Angel 02-20-07, 09:10 AM	You obviously haven't heard of the WotC ninjas? They're like a Gideon, but instead of sneaking in to place a bible, they sneak in and make sure you play D&D "officially". lol, yeah, I'll have to watch out for that.
Wee_Willy_Winky 02-20-07, 09:19 AM	lol, yeah, I'll have to watch out for that. Yes, they busted me the other day for not enforcing the multi-classing XP penalty. …I also think they bugged my flat.
Olskool 02-20-07, 11:52 AM	When are you going to realize that all these game systems reflect an industry standard. -Polaris Sorry, but you're one of those guys who makes bogus predictions about 4E as if they have insider info. You're ideas about industry standards aren't exactly reliable. More people roll for stats than point buy in RPGs. I believe Wizards market research bears this out, if you wanna check it out. Your ideas about industry standards are very different from the industry's ideas about industry standards. Of course you'll probably respond to this by making some football analogy and declaring I've made an ad-homina homina attack, that's OK, I'm ready for it.
Krusk 02-20-07, 12:08 PM	every time someone says "i know for sure what the next edition will and will not include" unless they are developing it i ask myself. "wow this guy can predict the future, i should have him pick my stocks." No one can say with 100% certanty what 4th ed will have, at best you can give it a 99% odds that it will do something. There is always a chance wotc goes under and there is no new edition. A chance they get bought out, and the next edition is a tie in game with my little pony. A chance that gygax comes back and decides they butchered his game and that he wants a return of 1st ed. Personally the vast majority of players i have played with/met in real life would rather roll stats. but he is right, it does save time. So if we are not going to have a session befor hand to do stat rolling due to one shotness or something coming up, we will use a point buy. Also his suggestion about the rampant cheating is just a sign that he has had a horrible experience with a rolling system in which he was the only one who didnt cheat, or maybe he is too tempted to cheat himself and dosnt want too. that has as much backing as his gaurentee of pointbuy in 4th ed.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:20 PM	Yes, they busted me the other day for not enforcing the multi-classing XP penalty. …I also think they bugged my flat. It's ok, their bugs don't work if you wear a tinfoil hat.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:26 PM	Also his suggestion about the rampant cheating is just a sign that he has had a horrible experience with a rolling system in which he was the only one who didnt cheat, or maybe he is too tempted to cheat himself and dosnt want too. That's been my experience when it comes to people that insist on point buy. I'm a DM, I cheat during the character creation process. One player in my game was rolling so horribly that I would distract him every time he rolled and I'd turn one of his dice to a 6 for him. Sorry 'bout your experiences, mate, but some of us don't see the problem with rolling that you do.
ZeronHitaro 02-20-07, 12:28 PM	Stick with your guns. Your stats alone make you a LA +1 or +2 over the other players. You know that within a few sessions, you're character is going to dominate the table. I'm calling major BS on that one. Just because you have more stat points does not make you a show stealer or a LA + anything. It's that false sense of power that will more than likely get you killed when you jump into something the other players are smart enough to avoid. I DM a game where 2 of the 8 players rolled exceptionally well and they die just as much if not more often than the rest of the group.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:30 PM	I'm calling major BS on that one. Just because you have more stat points does not make you a show stealer or a LA + anything. It's that false sense of power that will more than likely get you killed when you jump into something the other players are smart enough to avoid. I DM a game where 2 of the 8 players rolled exceptionally well and they die just as much if not more often than the rest of the group. Because the player with exceptional stats thinks they're going to make him invincible.
ZeronHitaro 02-20-07, 12:32 PM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. Unless he wants to Rule 0 the PHB he has to let the rest of the party reroll. Rerolling If your scores are too low you may scrap them and roll all six scores again. Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if your highest score is 13 or lower.
ZeronHitaro 02-20-07, 12:34 PM	Because the player with exceptional stats thinks they're going to make him invincible. Not exactly. In the case of the party I DM it's a matter of meta-gaming. Party: Okay, who's got the best stats? You go hold his attention. Party Member #6: Um,...roar? *fights monster and goes squish* At best the stats will buy them a small % extra to hit and maybe 15 HP average more to soak damage. Is it a nice boost? Yes, is it enough to warrent LA+1 heck no.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-20-07, 12:49 PM	The OP has already stated that the character did not last even as long as this thread anyway.
johnkretzer 02-20-07, 12:50 PM	While I don't normaly agree with Olskool he is right. Rolling is probably the perferred system among gamers. Because it doesn't even comes remorely close to providing balanced play or creates interesting characters. They all pretty much look the same to me. Point but system favors spellcasters by a large margin because they only really need one high stat. Combatents, rogues need multiple. So if you have a point buy system to balance the characters then you need to give a player the number of points based on his class. Also it always seem to be you see the same type of characters over and over. With a point buy system you won't see the intelligent or chasmatic fighter. The strong rogue etc. It also leads to min/maxing in the extreme. D&D has always had a random ability generation system. They could have easily changed over when when the changed editions earlier but they didn't? Because all those systems you have mentioned with point based character gen. do not sell nearly as well as D&D. It would be like when Coke came out with New Coke. They have the best system why try to be more like their competitors with who don't do as well? I am not saying point buy is all bad but it has about the same problems as random stats. Also I noticed something high stats don't nearly unbalance character has some might think.
supermonk7 02-20-07, 01:44 PM	You know, I have been reading this discussion and trying to understand everyone's points. So, I thought I would do a little experiment. Using the die roller here at the wizards site (the d20 on the main D&D page), I decided to roll twenty sets of stats, using 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll ones. Here is what they came up with: 17 16 15 15 10 10 17 14 14 13 11 10 15 15 13 12 10 9 16 16 15 15 11 11 18 16 13 12 10 10 16 14 14 14 13 10 17 15 15 12 12 12 17 14 13 12 12 11 16 14 14 14 11 11 17 17 15 15 14 14 17 16 15 14 13 12 18 14 14 14 13 10 15 14 12 11 9 9 16 15 14 14 12 10 18 14 13 12 11 11 18 16 15 14 14 11 17 16 15 13 12 11 17 16 15 15 13 11 14 14 13 12 12 11 15 15 14 13 12 10 Really, not any of these stats are bad. Some are better than others, but people are different. Some people are good at more than one thing, others struggle with nearly everything. Life itself is not "fair" or "balanced". The game attempts to do so, but not everything is--or should be--perfectly balanced. I get really tired of seeing players using point buy have all even stats, or every 1st level wizard having an 18 Intelligence, every 1st level sorceror having an 18 Charisma, simply because they don't have to put very many points into Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom. That is why I use, and will continue to use--regardless of what the actually rules now or in the future say--random determination of ability scores. Because all the characters--like us, the players--are different and unique. They are heroes, but not heroes cut from the same cookie cutter mold. This is why I use 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll 1's, so the HEROES--the characters--can be heroic in their ability scores. Not all people will agree. And I am not asking you to agree. That is what makes life--and gaming--so interesting. Our disagreements, our differing opinions, our various viewpoints. Anyway, thanks for listening. Arminas tar Valantil, the Grand Master of the Ebon Rose
Polaris 02-20-07, 08:16 PM	Uh, yeah...actually you can tell when dice are loaded. I'm not really sure what else I can say about that other than the fact that you can. I suppose I'm another lucky dm because I've never had a group who cheated as rampantly as you suggest; just different groups of people I suppose. Um, no you can't and this is from a fair amount of Casino Craps experience. That's especially true with the cheap plastic dice that most gamers use because of low production standards, but even with casino grade dice, loaded dice is a fantastic way for dishonest casinos to cheat and it's virtually impossible for the casual roller (which frankly is most of us) to tell without an extended statistical analysis or special equipement (a dice centrifuge). Loading dice by the way isn't the only way that those using die-rolls "cheat". How many of you "drop ones"? That's flat out cheating because it turns the 4d6 drop lowest into 3+4d5 drop lowest which makes all characters uniformally more powerful and reduces varience. How many DMs arbritrarly allow for rerolling bad rolls, fudging, or do-overs. More than you think. Point Buy and other non-random systems avoid this problem entirely. -Polaris
Polaris 02-20-07, 08:18 PM	You know, I have been reading this discussion and trying to understand everyone's points. So, I thought I would do a little experiment. Using the die roller here at the wizards site (the d20 on the main D&D page), I decided to roll twenty sets of stats, using 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll ones. Here is what they came up with: Key words bolded for emphasis. This is cheating and is totally non-official since it replaces the 4d6 drop lowest with 3+4d5 drop lowest. The later has a higher mean and lower varience. -Polaris
Polaris 02-20-07, 08:19 PM	I'm calling major BS on that one. Just because you have more stat points does not make you a show stealer or a LA + anything. It's that false sense of power that will more than likely get you killed when you jump into something the other players are smart enough to avoid. I DM a game where 2 of the 8 players rolled exceptionally well and they die just as much if not more often than the rest of the group. He's right. By WOTC standards, having higher stats is at least LA+1 per racial construction rules. If the total bonus is +4 or more, you are looking at LA+2 at least. -Polaris
Polaris 02-20-07, 08:22 PM	Sorry, but you're one of those guys who makes bogus predictions about 4E as if they have insider info. You're ideas about industry standards aren't exactly reliable. More people roll for stats than point buy in RPGs. I believe Wizards market research bears this out, if you wanna check it out. That would be so much believable if you provided...I dunno....perhaps some evidence to back this up? Your ideas about industry standards are very different from the industry's ideas about industry standards. Of course you'll probably respond to this by making some football analogy and declaring I've made an ad-homina homina attack, that's OK, I'm ready for it. Except I am right about industry standards. You have to hunt far and wide to find a char-gen system that's random. Near as I can tell, the new RPGs being put on the market don't use one (at least not as the primary system) and neither does WOTC for pretty much anything made after 3.5E. -Polaris
Big_Daddy_Mama 02-21-07, 03:57 AM	With a point buy system you won't see the intelligent or chasmatic fighter. Not true. I've seen point buy fighters that bought a high Int because they were going down the Combat Expertise road. I've also seen a point buy monk with a high Cha because they were going for Exalted action – Touch of Golden Ice etc. I’m really bored of people saying (lying) all point buy characters look the same. I've seen many point buys of the same race/class and they had different scores in the same abilties.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 04:13 AM	Not true. I've seen point buy fighters that bought a high Int because they were going down the Combat Expertise road. I've also seen a point buy monk with a high Cha because they were going for Exalted action – Touch of Golden Ice etc. I’m really bored of people saying (lying) all point buy characters look the same. I've seen many point buys of the same race/class and they had different scores in the same abilties. But there is always a reason like feat or etc...not the right reason...like I want to play fighter that has some social ability or has half a brain...and that is completelywhy I dislike Point buy systems because it make it even more of a numbers game. Miun/max I believe is the term.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 04:14 AM	He's right. By WOTC standards, having higher stats is at least LA+1 per racial construction rules. If the total bonus is +4 or more, you are looking at LA+2 at least. -Polaris No those are racial adjustment on top of what you roll. Or buy.
Johnny_Angel 02-21-07, 07:05 AM	Um, no you can't and this is from a fair amount of Casino Craps experience. That's especially true with the cheap plastic dice that most gamers use because of low production standards, but even with casino grade dice, loaded dice is a fantastic way for dishonest casinos to cheat and it's virtually impossible for the casual roller (which frankly is most of us) to tell without an extended statistical analysis or special equipement (a dice centrifuge). Loading dice by the way isn't the only way that those using die-rolls "cheat". How many of you "drop ones"? That's flat out cheating because it turns the 4d6 drop lowest into 3+4d5 drop lowest which makes all characters uniformally more powerful and reduces varience. How many DMs arbritrarly allow for rerolling bad rolls, fudging, or do-overs. More than you think. Point Buy and other non-random systems avoid this problem entirely. -Polaris Actually, yes you can; I've gambled a fair amount myself, and it is possible to tell loaded dice from normal dice. Most loaded dice sound different when they roll or bounce differently; also, I'd like to think that I would notice if someone always rolls the exact same numbers for everything. Aside from just being able to notice the difference, there is also a forumula which can be used to test if dice are loaded or not by rolling them a set amount of times and recording the results. There most certainly are ways to tell loaded dice from regular dice. As for rerolling, I can't speak for other DMs, but my rule is that every player gets 3 rerolls that can be used any time - even during character creation. My rule also states that if you reroll and get a lower roll that you are now stuck with the results of that lower roll - unless you want to use another one of your rerolls, but you only get 3, and then they're gone. Fudging? Honestly, I never fudge dice. I don't fudge them for the PCs, and I don't fudge them for the NPCs, BBEG, or anyone else. If the PCs get lucky and kill the BBEG in the first round, that's just the way the story rolls. Likewise, if the BBEG manages to go on a critical/great cleave spree, well, that's how the story rolls as well. I don't drop dice either. Other people might, but I honestly don't. Most DMs who I have played with (as a PC) actually disallow it; dice are to be rolled onto the table; any dice which fall off the table either don't count or are re-rolled. So, seeing as how I have none of the problems you speak of, point-buy gives me no real advantage over stat rolling. To me they're just different systems of doing the same thing. Have I used point-buy? Yes, and I enjoyed the games I played in with point buy because I enjoy D&D regardless; however, if I have a choice in the matter, I prefer stat rolling. Heck, most of the time -unless I'm pressed for time- I roll the stats for my monsters as well. I don't like them all to have the same stats any more than I do my PCs.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-21-07, 08:04 AM	Loading dice by the way isn't the only way that those using die-rolls "cheat". How many of you "drop ones"? That's flat out cheating because it turns the 4d6 drop lowest into 3+4d5 drop lowest which makes all characters uniformally more powerful and reduces varience. How many DMs arbritrarly allow for rerolling bad rolls, fudging, or do-overs. More than you think. Point Buy and other non-random systems avoid this problem entirely. -Polaris I agree, using anything other than the express PHB method is cheating.
Polaris 02-21-07, 04:15 PM	But there is always a reason like feat or etc...not the right reason...like I want to play fighter that has some social ability or has half a brain...and that is completelywhy I dislike Point buy systems because it make it even more of a numbers game. Miun/max I believe is the term. Who says? Just because you want to take advantage of a good Int as a fighter does not make you an evil min-maxer. The fact is that character concept need not have anything to do with getting the most out of your character.....and you min-max with random char-gen characters as well. Min-Max is not an issue here. -Polaris
Polaris 02-21-07, 04:17 PM	No those are racial adjustment on top of what you roll. Or buy. You are missing the point. WOTC specificially states at least with racial construction that if you start with better stats, you deserve to have an LA. Same, same. -Polaris
Polaris 02-21-07, 04:23 PM	Actually, yes you can; I've gambled a fair amount myself, and it is possible to tell loaded dice from normal dice. Most loaded dice sound different when they roll or bounce differently; also, I'd like to think that I would notice if someone always rolls the exact same numbers for everything. Aside from just being able to notice the difference, there is also a forumula which can be used to test if dice are loaded or not by rolling them a set amount of times and recording the results. There most certainly are ways to tell loaded dice from regular dice. No you can't; at least not with commercial grade dice. It's true that loaded dice roll and bounce slightly differently but the key word is slightly. Commercial grade dice have a very low production quality and I challenge any amature here to tell the difference between deliberately (if slightly) loaded commercial grade dice and normal commercial grade dice which often come with interier air-bubbles and the like. If a player insists on rolling up characters with "lucky dice", it's because they probably are (i.e. loaded) and the player might not even realize it. As for a mathematic way to tell, there is, but you don't roll enough with the random char-gen method to be able to tell. You use a RMS method to sniff out loaded dice and you don't have enough data with one character set to use it. [However, using RMS, I CAN tell that cheating is rampant overall with the 4d6 drop lowest methode.] As for rerolling, I can't speak for other DMs, but my rule is that every player gets 3 rerolls that can be used any time - even during character creation. My rule also states that if you reroll and get a lower roll that you are now stuck with the results of that lower roll - unless you want to use another one of your rerolls, but you only get 3, and then they're gone. Then you are cheating. Fudging? Honestly, I never fudge dice. I don't fudge them for the PCs, and I don't fudge them for the NPCs, BBEG, or anyone else. If the PCs get lucky and kill the BBEG in the first round, that's just the way the story rolls. Likewise, if the BBEG manages to go on a critical/great cleave spree, well, that's how the story rolls as well. See above. By allowing non-standard rerolls, you are in fact fudging. I don't drop dice either. Other people might, but I honestly don't. Most DMs who I have played with (as a PC) actually disallow it; dice are to be rolled onto the table; any dice which fall off the table either don't count or are re-rolled. You can roll skewed as well. That's why you should roll dice from a cup and bounce it at least a meter from the roller. You should know this. So, seeing as how I have none of the problems you speak of, point-buy gives me no real advantage over stat rolling. To me they're just different systems of doing the same thing. Have I used point-buy? Yes, and I enjoyed the games I played in with point buy because I enjoy D&D regardless; however, if I have a choice in the matter, I prefer stat rolling. Except I showed that you do have most of the problems with die rolling, and you haven't showed that you are able to save any time. In fact if you are as careful as you claim (which I seriously doubt), it takes more time for you than most for random char-gen system. That's at least one advantage of non-random that you haven't addressed. -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-21-07, 04:37 PM	Nothing for me I see. Oh well.
Dolomite 02-21-07, 04:53 PM	I’m sorry but I don’t believe you. The chances of you rolling them dice are infinitely small - 0.00000021779% 1 / 459,165,024 To put it another way, if you rolled stats over and over again doing nothing else it would take you ~73 years just to get a 50/50 chance of them stats. Or perhaps it’s just jealously – The character I rolled up last night has 8, 14, 10, 15, 10, 11! Sorry to think badly of you but I just aren’t going to waste anymore words on this fairy tale. Grogmir. Its been done before and it will be done again. I sat one day and watched a guy roll up a character with 2 18's, 2 17's, 16 and a 15. Best dam rolling I had see up to that point....he made a kick ass paladin that got critted by a landshark who killed him so thorughly that there wasnt enough to even raise. Dont you know anything is possible and sometimes the incredible happens. If I can watch someone roll 9 straight 3's during a session, I sure as heck can see 3 18's happen.
Johnny_Angel 02-21-07, 10:10 PM	No you can't; at least not with commercial grade dice. It's true that loaded dice roll and bounce slightly differently but the key word is slightly. Commercial grade dice have a very low production quality and I challenge any amature here to tell the difference between deliberately (if slightly) loaded commercial grade dice and normal commercial grade dice which often come with interier air-bubbles and the like. If a player insists on rolling up characters with "lucky dice", it's because they probably are (i.e. loaded) and the player might not even realize it. As for a mathematic way to tell, there is, but you don't roll enough with the random char-gen method to be able to tell. You use a RMS method to sniff out loaded dice and you don't have enough data with one character set to use it. [However, using RMS, I CAN tell that cheating is rampant overall with the 4d6 drop lowest methode.] Edit: Also, as for the formulas to determine if dice are loaded, 24 rolls are plenty. Being that I almost always play D&D with the same people, I've seen them roll the dice they have at least a hundred times. Then you are cheating. See above. By allowing non-standard rerolls, you are in fact fudging. You can roll skewed as well. That's why you should roll dice from a cup and bounce it at least a meter from the roller. You should know this. Except I showed that you do have most of the problems with die rolling, and you haven't showed that you are able to save any time. In fact if you are as careful as you claim (which I seriously doubt), it takes more time for you than most for random char-gen system. That's at least one advantage of non-random that you haven't addressed. -Polaris I'm cheating? I don't think you quite understand my rerolling policy. It's not only for stat rolling; it can be used at any time, but each character only gets three. Even if I used point buy, this rule would still be in effect. When did I mention saving time? Other people made that argument, but I didn't. Actually, no, now I remember...I said I roll stats for monsters unless I am pressed for time; then I simply use the monsters from the books as are. How much time does it really take to roll dice? Again, as for the cheating, I must just have a one in a million group or something because I've not experienced the problems you speak of.
Krusk 02-21-07, 11:15 PM	technically you are altering the rules which technically is cheating. Technically. But because youve got a houserule that applies to everyone in the game, no one cares. his point was, while i think he is just streatching for anything now, that you are not playing by the magic rules which hold the universe together.
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:25 AM	technically you are altering the rules which technically is cheating. Technically. But because youve got a houserule that applies to everyone in the game, no one cares. That's untrue. With his reroll system, the character with the random char-gen methode get a huge advantage over the one that uses point buy. That's because with point buy, the random roll is d20 which is done hundreds of time in a typical campaign which allows for a regression to mean (and quickly sniffs out loaded dice btw). Thus by and large it's not worth it to reroll d20s since you only get three rerolls in the campaign. However, it makes a HUGE difference during the random char-gen since each attribute roll is only used once. It's not equitable and deviates from the rule you are trying to defend. Ergo, it's cheating. his point was, while i think he is just streatching for anything now, that you are not playing by the magic rules which hold the universe together. See above. You can't change the rule to defend the rule. -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:29 AM	I'm cheating? I don't think you quite understand my rerolling policy. It's not only for stat rolling; it can be used at any time, but each character only gets three. Even if I used point buy, this rule would still be in effect. Yes you are. See my reply to Krusk to save time. When did I mention saving time? Other people made that argument, but I didn't. Actually, no, now I remember...I said I roll stats for monsters unless I am pressed for time; then I simply use the monsters from the books as are. How much time does it really take to roll dice? No. You made a claim. You claimed that none of the problems inherent with the random char-gen system affected you. One of the problems I mentioned was the increased time and inconvenience that was inherent in random char-gen. Ergo, you did not properly address my point or prove your argument. Again, as for the cheating, I must just have a one in a million group or something because I've not experienced the problems you speak of. I doubt it. Take all the random characters that you have seen and put them through the RMS test for 4d6 drop the lowest. I have little doubt you will see strong statistical evidence of cheating. It's almost routine IMX. It may be hard to see 'cheating' on an individual case (a strong strike against random char-gen), but it leaves a strong statistical footprint over enough characters. -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 07:58 AM	Polaris must have me on ignore.... If not using the rule is cheating then using the PB is cheating since it is not the character gen method in the PHB. Last I checked there was only one char gen method in the PHB and that was 4d6 drop lowest. DMs can alter it however they like though (even if this is technically "cheating") and as long as it is applied universally it works fine and equitably.
Zumarai 02-22-07, 08:00 AM	Take all the random characters that you have seen and put them through the RMS test for 4d6 drop the lowest. I have little doubt you will see strong statistical evidence of cheating. …He/she's right you know.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 08:07 AM	…He/she's right you know. Let's say that Polaris is right for the sake of argument (not that I believe it for a moment). My group has been cheating for 10+ years. Have I ever heard a complaint or noticed someone looking upset over another person's character? No. Does everyone seem to be having fun including me? Yes. THEN WHO THE HECK CARES?!?:banghead:
Zumarai 02-22-07, 09:27 AM	Does everyone seem to be having fun including me? Yes. THEN WHO THE HECK CARES?!?:banghead: It would seem we do, as we're a couple of point buy vs. rolling maniacs! The point here isn't about fun; it's about balance/calibration (rolled characters often aren't, IMX). In my current Planescape campaign I foolishly let the players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two, unsupervised. Now, I'm not saying they cheated, but the player with the lowest scores was still equal to a 40 Point Buy. The campaign is going swimmingly, and we're all having a blast, but it has definitely affected EL/CR’s etc. Next time I will definitely be implementing a point buy…15!
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 11:06 AM	Next time I will definitely be implementing a point buy…15! What would you call the campaign? Commoners Unite!
Red12 02-22-07, 11:22 AM	What would you call the campaign? Commoners Unite! Actually, it would be called "Single-Stat Casters Dominate More!" But really, I think ya'll are over-estimating the value of stats. They are helpful, but after you reach a certain threshold, they are not nearly as important as skillranks/BAB/etc.
Krusk 02-22-07, 12:05 PM	That's untrue. With his reroll system, the character with the random char-gen methode get a huge advantage over the one that uses point buy. That's because with point buy, the random roll is d20 which is done hundreds of time in a typical campaign which allows for a regression to mean (and quickly sniffs out loaded dice btw). Thus by and large it's not worth it to reroll d20s since you only get three rerolls in the campaign. However, it makes a HUGE difference during the random char-gen since each attribute roll is only used once. It's not equitable and deviates from the rule you are trying to defend. Ergo, it's cheating. Man, thats the last time i agree with polaris...
Polaris 02-22-07, 12:27 PM	Polaris must have me on ignore.... If not using the rule is cheating then using the PB is cheating since it is not the character gen method in the PHB. Last I checked there was only one char gen method in the PHB and that was 4d6 drop lowest. DMs can alter it however they like though (even if this is technically "cheating") and as long as it is applied universally it works fine and equitably. None of the rolling methodes used here in defense of random char-gen are actually in the DMG either. Look it up. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 12:27 PM	You are missing the point. WOTC specificially states at least with racial construction that if you start with better stats, you deserve to have an LA. Same, same. -Polaris Not really because if you have crappy stats do you get a bonus? I don't think so.
Johnny_Angel 02-22-07, 12:28 PM	The other thing you fail to take into consideration is that the reroll rule I use also states that if you manage to roll lower on your reroll, you are stuck with that roll. Let's say for the sake of example that someone rolls an 11; they decide they want to reroll that stat -thus using one of their rerolls- and end up rolling a 3 (four 1s; drop the lowest -and, yes, I actually have seen it happen before.) They now have a 3 in that stat unless they choose once more to use a reroll; thus using the second. You may not think so, but there are times aside from stats that a reroll would be valuable. I suppose I should mention that I use the alternative rule of rolling for initiative every round as well. There are many cases in which losing initiative has spelled doom for a player. My point being that it's not always wise to use up all your rerolls during stat generation. Again, I will also state that time is not an issue for me; so, once again I will say that I do not suffer from the supposed problems you have presented. Is it possible that other people do? Yeah, I suppose so, and that's the reason for there being more than one method; what works for one group may not suit another group. As for me, rolling stats doesn't take a whole lot of time. Seriously, how long does it really take to pick up dice and roll them? I'm going to sit down and time myself tonight so that I have a better documented answer for that question, but I'm willing to bet that -without rushing; going at a normal speed- I can roll stats for 4 characters in less than 5 minutes. You still seem to keep insisting that you don't feel there's any possible way that I could tell if the dice my players use are loaded. I've been playing with the same group for a long time, so I've seen them roll the same dice at least a few hundred (if not a few thousand) times. Not to mention that in my prior group, we all used the same dice (I was somewhere which dice weren't readily available.) I'm not really sure what else there is for me to say. I haven't experienced cheating in the way you seem to suggest, but, yet again, all I can say is that I suppose I just have a different group than from what you deem to be the norm. However, if such cheating is so rampant, and people use loaded dice all the time, wouldn't there still be the same problem in a point buy game anyway? I mean, yeah, sure, the loaded dice wouldn't help you any in stat creation, but you could still roll those same dice during combat, skill checks, and various other areas of the game which required dice to be rolled. In that case, what's really the difference? Regardless of whether I was in a point-buy game or a random-stat game, if I had a group which cheated so rampantly that I could never trust them, I don't think that I would play. The more this discussion progresses, the more I am thankful for the group I have.
Polaris 02-22-07, 12:29 PM	Actually, it would be called "Single-Stat Casters Dominate More!" Not really. Casters already dominate after mid levels regardless of stats. Your point? But really, I think ya'll are over-estimating the value of stats. They are helpful, but after you reach a certain threshold, they are not nearly as important as skillranks/BAB/etc. No I'm not. Stats are essential for low level survival. They aren't as important as they used to be, but they still greatly affect the character at the levels at which you can make the fewest number of mistakes. -Polaris
Johnny_Angel 02-22-07, 12:43 PM	Ok, instead of waiting until later, I just went ahead, sat here, and rolled 4 sets of stats. To make it even harder on myself, I only used a single d6. I figured that would slow me down since I normally have 4d6 to roll -which, under normal conditions should be faster than rolling the same one over and over again. It took me 3 minutes, and that even involves the time it took me to write down what I rolled. I suppose I don't see where this tremendous amount of time required to roll comes from. Next time I'm going to pretend I don't have any arms and roll all the dice using only my mouth. Just in case anyone is curious what I rolled, this would be the group if I used the stats I just sat here and rolled. PC1: 17, 9, 10, 11, 13, 12 PC2: 14, 14, 11, 10, 12, 16 PC3: 13, 14, 15, 12, 11, 13 PC4: 16, 13, 13, 8, 11, 13 Edit: I now decided that each one of the PCs, decided to use a reroll; I was curious what the results would be. The first PC decided to reroll the 9; the result of the reroll was a 12. The second PC decided to reroll the 10; the result of the reroll was a 15. The third PC said,"wee wee wee and ran all the way home." I mean...what I meant to say was that the third PC rerolled the 11 and ended up with a 12. The fourth PC rerolled the 8 and ended up with a 12.
Polaris 02-22-07, 12:43 PM	The other thing you fail to take into consideration is that the reroll rule I use also states that if you manage to roll lower on your reroll, you are stuck with that roll. Let's say for the sake of example that someone rolls an 11; they decide they want to reroll that stat -thus using one of their rerolls- and end up rolling a 3 (four 1s; drop the lowest -and, yes, I actually have seen it happen before.) They now have a 3 in that stat unless they choose once more to use a reroll; thus using the second. So what? Statistically you are still much better off using that reroll on a very low char-gen roll especially if you get a 6 or less. In fact given the pseudo-gaussian nature of the roll, that's overwhelming the case statistically. You can't disprove that with one unlucky case. You should know better than that! You may not think so, but there are times aside from stats that a reroll would be valuable. I suppose I should mention that I use the alternative rule of rolling for initiative every round as well. There are many cases in which losing initiative has spelled doom for a player. My point being that it's not always wise to use up all your rerolls during stat generation. I don't disagree, but it's not as valuable as getting a reroll on a roll you never get a second chance at. In the game, even in the worst case (death), there are generally ways to evade or recover from the consequences of a bad roll (including the luck domain which allows for explicit rerolls on a daily basis). Not so for char-gen. Thus your reroll for d20 is no better (and indeed worse) than a clerical domain power, but priceless for char-gen. Again, I will also state that time is not an issue for me; so, once again I will say that I do not suffer from the supposed problems you have presented. Is it possible that other people do? Yeah, I suppose so, and that's the reason for there being more than one method; what works for one group may not suit another group. As for me, rolling stats doesn't take a whole lot of time. Seriously, how long does it really take to pick up dice and roll them? I'm going to sit down and time myself tonight so that I have a better documented answer for that question, but I'm willing to bet that -without rushing; going at a normal speed- I can roll stats for 4 characters in less than 5 minutes. Way to completely miss the point. You have to be there when the random rolls are made. That means that you and each of the players has to arrange a time to meet just to witness the rolls. With random char-gen YOU DO NOT and in fact can vet each character over email with no face to face contact necessary. That's why virtually all PBEM games use point buy or an array of some sort. You still seem to keep insisting that you don't feel there's any possible way that I could tell if the dice my players use are loaded. I've been playing with the same group for a long time, so I've seen them roll the same dice at least a few hundred (if not a few thousand) times. Not to mention that in my prior group, we all used the same dice (I was somewhere which dice weren't readily available.) No. Please argue what I say accurately. What I am saying is that over the course of a single character generation it is virtually impossible to tell if the dice are loaded. It's true and I stand by it. Furthermore, if you examine random char-gen characters over expectations using the RMS standard, you find as a whole wide and pervasive evidence of cheating. I am willing to bet that your group is no different in that regard. I also am willing to bet that you have not seen the same d6s multiple times....and if you have they are certainly loaded by now since commercial grade dice DO wear out (and thus become loaded) with enough use. I'm not really sure what else there is for me to say. I haven't experienced cheating in the way you seem to suggest, but, yet again, all I can say is that I suppose I just have a different group than from what you deem to be the norm. However, if such cheating is so rampant, and people use loaded dice all the time, wouldn't there still be the same problem in a point buy game anyway? I mean, yeah, sure, the loaded dice wouldn't help you any in stat creation, but you could still roll those same dice during combat, skill checks, and various other areas of the game which required dice to be rolled. In that case, what's really the difference? What's the difference? Two very important things: 1. A player (and DM for that matter) will roll literally hundreds of d20s over the course of the campaign. If the d20 were in fact loaded, over that many iterations, loaded dice quickly become evident if you are paying attention at all. 2. The [i]temptation to cheat is much lower. Why? Because with very few exceptions, little is riding on any individual d20 roll and players can expect a regression to mean regardless. Therefore it's not worth it to cheat. Both these points are untrue in random char-gen systems. Regardless of whether I was in a point-buy game or a random-stat game, if I had a group which cheated so rampantly that I could never trust them, I don't think that I would play. The more this discussion progresses, the more I am thankful for the group I have. I am betting that there is more cheating going on in char-creation than you either know or are willing to admit to. In fact, some of your players may not even realize they are cheating (it's possible for commercial grade dice to be made 'loaded' because of air bubbles). Do a statistical audit of the last say...100 random characters and see if they meet RMS expectations and get back to me.... -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 12:45 PM	Ok, instead of waiting until later, I just went ahead, sat here, and rolled 4 sets of stats. To make it even harder on myself, I only used a single d6. I figured that would slow me down since I normally have 4d6 to roll -which, under normal conditions should be faster than rolling the same one over and over again. It took me 3 minutes, and that even involves the time it took me to write down what I rolled. I suppose I don't see where this tremendous amount of time required to roll comes from. Next time I'm going to pretend I don't have any arms and roll all the dice using only my mouth. Just in case anyone is curious what I rolled, this would be the group if I used the stats I just sat here and rolled. PC1: 17, 9, 10, 11, 13, 12 PC2: 14, 14, 11, 10, 12, 16 PC3: 13, 14, 15, 12, 11, 13 PC4: 16, 13, 13, 8, 11, 13 I don't believe you. These characters already violate the RMS so far. Sorry but they do. Furthermore, it would then take about an hour to flesh out each character after you witnessed all the rolls. Doesn't fly. Sorry. -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 12:54 PM	Not really because if you have crappy stats do you get a bonus? I don't think so. Yes you do. First of all, if everyone else is playing an LA+1 or LA+2 race, then you obviously get a bonus by being a human (or anything LA+0). Even in the LA+0 case, if you have crappy stats, you get more bennies. That's why small characters/monsters with crappy stats tend to get the best racial abilities (perhaps not enough to make up for the crappy stats and size, but that's another issue entirely). -Polaris
Johnny_Angel 02-22-07, 01:02 PM	I don't believe you. These characters already violate the RMS so far. Sorry but they do. Furthermore, it would then take about an hour to flesh out each character after you witnessed all the rolls. Doesn't fly. Sorry. -Polaris I'm sorry, but I just don't see where all this extra time is coming from. You said that I would have to schedule a time for my players to roll stats. There's a scheduled time for us to play every week, so how hard is it to have everyone roll their stats in front of me? Once both they and I know what the stats are, they go about making their character. How does that really take any more time than the same way you would do it using point-buy? You figure out what the stats are, and then you make your character. You keep point out that rolling the same loaded D20 would be obvious, but you don't seem to believe that rolling the same loaded dice of any other kind would be obvious; I'm afraid that I don't see how one would be any less obvious than the other. Not to mention that you use d6s for more things than just stats. If someone was really so hell-bent on cheating, they could do it regardless of whether they are doing point buy or random gen. Point-Buy is your preference, and that's great; it works for you. For me, I prefer randomly generated stats. As for "cheating," I suppose you'd probably call me a cheater for some of the other rules I implement in my game, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 01:04 PM	None of the rolling methodes used here in defense of random char-gen are actually in the DMG either. Look it up. -Polaris I was talking about the ONE method listed in the PHB. Man I wish I lugged all my books to work so I could cite things easier.
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:13 PM	I'm sorry, but I just don't see where all this extra time is coming from. You said that I would have to schedule a time for my players to roll stats. There's a scheduled time for us to play every week, so how hard is it to have everyone roll their stats in front of me? Once both they and I know what the stats are, they go about making their character. How does that really take any more time than the same way you would do it using point-buy? You figure out what the stats are, and then you make your character. It's called scheduling. For the DM who doesn't have to witness his own rolls, the random system doesn't take any more time. For players where the DM does, it will. EITHER you have to witness the rolls at the first session at which point you've wasted a session building characters OR you have to find a mutually convenient time and place to make the rolls ahead of time. Either way you are burning time that would otherwise be available to you in a deterministic (non-random) system. I don't see how I can make it plainer than that. You keep point out that rolling the same loaded D20 would be obvious, but you don't seem to believe that rolling the same loaded dice of any other kind would be obvious; I'm afraid that I don't see how one would be any less obvious than the other. Not to mention that you use d6s for more things than just stats. If someone was really so hell-bent on cheating, they could do it regardless of whether they are doing point buy or random gen. It's called number of rolls!! If you roll a dice enough times, you can use the RMS test to tell pretty conclusively if the dice is loaded or not. With enough rolls, even a casual observer will accumulate enough data to be suspicious if cheating is occuring (and such things can and do happen from time to time). It's very hard (to virtually impossible) to catch a cheater in the act with random char-gen and the temptation to cheat is very high with random char-gen. That's a very bad combination. -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:16 PM	I was talking about the ONE method listed in the PHB. Man I wish I lugged all my books to work so I could cite things easier. The random methods listed in the DMG are (in addition to 4d6 drop lowest): 1. 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll once dice during the entire process. 2. 4d6 drop lowest, attribute order fixed 3. 3d6 4. 3d6 attribute order fixed 5. 5d6 drop two (for high powered games with a higher reroll threshold) Frankly except for the last, all of the 'random systems' you and others have trotted out to defend the random char-gen methode have been better than these. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 01:19 PM	Yes you do. First of all, if everyone else is playing an LA+1 or LA+2 race, then you obviously get a bonus by being a human (or anything LA+0). Even in the LA+0 case, if you have crappy stats, you get more bennies. That's why small characters/monsters with crappy stats tend to get the best racial abilities (perhaps not enough to make up for the crappy stats and size, but that's another issue entirely). -Polaris Really what great racial abilities do kobolds get/(beside the dubious dragon ancestory crap that isn't in core) or goblins?
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 01:21 PM	The random methods listed in the DMG are (in addition to 4d6 drop lowest): 1. 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll once dice during the entire process. 2. 4d6 drop lowest, attribute order fixed 3. 3d6 4. 3d6 attribute order fixed 5. 5d6 drop two (for high powered games with a higher reroll threshold) Frankly except for the last, all of the 'random systems' you and others have trotted out to defend the random char-gen methode have been better than these. -Polaris Ok. Thanks for reading what I said. The only official method for players (as in in the Player's Handbook) without a DM overriding it whith whatever method he likes is 4d6 drop lowest. That is my point. Anything else is a variant!
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:29 PM	Ok. Thanks for reading what I said. The only official method for players (as in in the Player's Handbook) without a DM overriding it whith whatever method he likes is 4d6 drop lowest. That is my point. Anything else is a variant! Nope. Any method in the core rules is official. I also note that WOTC's products since 3.5 either assume an elite array or point buy. -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:32 PM	Really what great racial abilities do kobolds get/(beside the dubious dragon ancestory crap that isn't in core) or goblins? That's too easy. Kobolds are the only LA+0 race that I know of that gets natural armor. In addition to that, Kobolds get bonus speed. Goblins get bonus speed, and +4 to two seperate skills, one of which (Move Silently) is an important and classic rogue skill (at least for a stealthy rogue). Goblins probably make one of the best (if not THE best) rogues in the game (better than halflings even). -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 01:32 PM	It's called scheduling. For the DM who doesn't have to witness his own rolls, the random system doesn't take any more time. For players where the DM does, it will. EITHER you have to witness the rolls at the first session at which point you've wasted a session building characters OR you have to find a mutually convenient time and place to make the rolls ahead of time. Either way you are burning time that would otherwise be available to you in a deterministic (non-random) system. I don't see how I can make it plainer than that. It's called number of rolls!! If you roll a dice enough times, you can use the RMS test to tell pretty conclusively if the dice is loaded or not. With enough rolls, even a casual observer will accumulate enough data to be suspicious if cheating is occuring (and such things can and do happen from time to time). It's very hard (to virtually impossible) to catch a cheater in the act with random char-gen and the temptation to cheat is very high with random char-gen. That's a very bad combination. -Polaris First it I want my players to create their characters with the other players anyway so mostly the first session is the players character working out their characters. This actualy creates a more level playing feild in term to balance the = stats do because people know exactly what everyone else is about. So this isn inconvient for me or my players. Also the problem with statiscal anaylisis is that it is never 100% correct. Especialy on a random outcome.. "Never tell me the odds". Also I guess to determine if somebody is cheating you have them use only one set of dice ever?
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 01:36 PM	Nope. Any method in the core rules is official. I also note that WOTC's products since 3.5 either assume an elite array or point buy. -Polaris Fine. Then rolling 4d6 is just as valid as PB. :D
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:39 PM	First it I want my players to create their characters with the other players anyway so mostly the first session is the players character working out their characters. This actualy creates a more level playing feild in term to balance the = stats do because people know exactly what everyone else is about. So this isn inconvient for me or my players. This does not disprove my point. The extra time is clearly a price you are willing to pay, but you do pay it. I note that with a deterministic system, you can still discuss characters with the rest of the group and DM electronically so I fail to see the advantages of doing this face to face especially in light of the opportunity cost of a session (which is painful if you can only meet everyother week....a phenonema that's becoming all too common as gamers get older). In short a specific case like yours doesn't show anything at all. Also the problem with statiscal anaylisis is that it is never 100% correct. Especialy on a random outcome.. "Never tell me the odds". I suggest you take a course in statistics. The RMS method gives you the probability of a certain amount of deviation from the mean for a given number of rolls. If that number is too low, you will be accused of cheating......and no amount of "never tell me the odds" is going to fly with the Casino goons in Vegas (but you are welcome to try). Also I guess to determine if somebody is cheating you have them use only one set of dice ever? Actually you can tell if someone is cheating regardless of the dice you are using. The RMS method tracks the outcomes over multiple tries against the Root Mean Square. If you are cheating, you will get a skewed result no matter how you do it. That's why the RMS method is the method of choice. -Polaris
Johnny_Angel 02-22-07, 01:41 PM	It's called scheduling. For the DM who doesn't have to witness his own rolls, the random system doesn't take any more time. For players where the DM does, it will. EITHER you have to witness the rolls at the first session at which point you've wasted a session building characters OR you have to find a mutually convenient time and place to make the rolls ahead of time. Either way you are burning time that would otherwise be available to you in a deterministic (non-random) system. I don't see how I can make it plainer than that. -Polaris I'm still not seeing where the extra time comes in because we've already established that it takes roughly 5 minutes to roll stats. Once those stats are rolled, the player is free to make their character. I suppose you do need to make it more plain, because I'm just not seeing where all this supposed extra time is coming from. You mentioned two options in your arguments. 1) Finding a time to roll beforehand - It's usually not difficult for me to take a few minutes out of the day to watch someone roll a few dice. 2) Using some time during a session to make characters - I already said that there's a day scheduled for our game each week. For my group, our D&D day is a social event, so it's not a big deal if we need to take an hour to get ready during one session. I realize that my circumstances are not the same as the circumstances surrounding other games and other groups, and that is in fact the reason why there is more than one method for stat generation available. For me, random generation works perfectly fine, so -for me- point buy doesn't provide any advantages over random generation.
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:41 PM	Fine. Then rolling 4d6 is just as valid as PB. :D Strawman. I never said the method wasn't "valid" (as in within the rules). I said that the method was flawed and problematic and I showed why. That's different. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 01:49 PM	That's too easy. Kobolds are the only LA+0 race that I know of that gets natural armor. In addition to that, Kobolds get bonus speed. Goblins get bonus speed, and +4 to two seperate skills, one of which (Move Silently) is an important and classic rogue skill (at least for a stealthy rogue). Goblins probably make one of the best (if not THE best) rogues in the game (better than halflings even). -Polaris Actualy there is no rule to the fact small creature have a base speed of 20'. Kolbold are also have light sensitivity as a drawback that balances out a +1 NA. Which is not that great they get a -2 to con which meand less HPs. Also goblins tend to suck if you want a cha based rogue, and considering that the only thing the goblin has over the halfling is a +2 to Move Silently I said a halfling make a better all around rogue then a goblin since the halfling doesn't get a -1 to all cha based skills. And gains +2 bonus to other inportant rogue skills like climb, Jump, and listen , and a +1 racial bonus to all saves. Halfling are better at being rogues. Sure if you like one dimensional character...but then again you like point buy system which lead to one dimensional characters much more the RCG. And also I don't get how you can call a DM for cheating for implementing a house rule? Or have you forgotten rule zero?
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:51 PM	I'm still not seeing where the extra time comes in because we've already established that it takes roughly 5 minutes to roll stats. Once those stats are rolled, the player is free to make their character. I suppose you do need to make it more plain, because I'm just not seeing where all this supposed extra time is coming from. You mentioned two options in your arguments. 1) Finding a time to roll beforehand - It's usually not difficult for me to take a few minutes out of the day to watch someone roll a few dice. That may be true for you, and that may have been true overall about ten or more years ago when gamers were primarily students (either in college or high school). Most gamers (certainly the majority that I've run into) are now middle class professionals, and these days finding time to meet someone else with an equally crowded schedule for a "few minutes" can be a real chore. That's especially true if you are seperated by any significant geographic distance. 2) Using some time during a session to make characters - I already said that there's a day scheduled for our game each week. For my group, our D&D day is a social event, so it's not a big deal if we need to take an hour to get ready during one session. Yes, but again, if you are socializing you aren't making characters either for the most part (or at the very least doing so slower) so you still are losing playing time and thus paying an opportunity cost in time. -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 01:57 PM	Actualy there is no rule to the fact small creature have a base speed of 20'. Doesn't have to be. All PH races and subraces of the same all have a move of 20'. 20' movement is a de facto base speed of a small creature thus it's perfectly fair to point to enhance movement for both the Kobold and Goblin. Kolbold are also have light sensitivity as a drawback that balances out a +1 NA. Which is not that great they get a -2 to con which meand less HPs. No it doesn't. You can overcome light sensitivity with a feat. You can not get natural armor with a feat. Natural Armor > Light sensitivity. Also goblins tend to suck if you want a cha based rogue, and considering that the only thing the goblin has over the halfling is a +2 to Move Silently I said a halfling make a better all around rogue then a goblin since the halfling doesn't get a -1 to all cha based skills. And gains +2 bonus to other inportant rogue skills like climb, Jump, and listen , and a +1 racial bonus to all saves. Halfling are better at being rogues. Cha based rogues suck. Even with the rogue's skill points, you are much better off simply investing points in the appropriate skills and letting synergy take it's course. The only cha based skill really worthwhile to a rogue is bluff (and there are all kinds of way to boost that without charisma) and UMD (same, same). In short, even for a cha-based rogue, Int is far more impotant than Cha. Sure if you like one dimensional character...but then again you like point buy system which lead to one dimensional characters much more the RCG. Who says it's a one dimensional character? IMHO and IMX that argument is trotted out when you run out of valid ones. And also I don't get how you can call a DM for cheating for implementing a house rule? Or have you forgotten rule zero? Two Words: Oberoni Fallacy. Of course the DM has a right to rule-zero anything....but such houserules do not serve as a defense for a written rule. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 02:03 PM	This does not disprove my point. The extra time is clearly a price you are willing to pay, but you do pay it. I note that with a deterministic system, you can still discuss characters with the rest of the group and DM electronically so I fail to see the advantages of doing this face to face especially in light of the opportunity cost of a session (which is painful if you can only meet everyother week....a phenonema that's becoming all too common as gamers get older). In short a specific case like yours doesn't show anything at all. I suggest you take a course in statistics. The RMS method gives you the probability of a certain amount of deviation from the mean for a given number of rolls. If that number is too low, you will be accused of cheating......and no amount of "never tell me the odds" is going to fly with the Casino goons in Vegas (but you are welcome to try). Actually you can tell if someone is cheating regardless of the dice you are using. The RMS method tracks the outcomes over multiple tries against the Root Mean Square. If you are cheating, you will get a skewed result no matter how you do it. That's why the RMS method is the method of choice. -Polaris Sure it does as it seems to disprove your point that it is the standard that people don't have time for this. I actualy not only think some do have the time for this but they should generate characters in this fashion even if they do use point buy as it will create a much healthier(as in everybody having fun) gaming group. Also your point about getting together electronicaly to discuss this stuff before hand assumes a couple of things which you can't prove is true for all groups: 1) everybody has access to the internet all the time. There are people still in this country that don'r own a computer or if they do computer do crash and need repair etc. If you have taken a statistic course you'll realize why the first poll done by phone failed. Completely. 2) That everyone has all the books that they might need to realize their concepts. Not everyone owns all the books due to expense and etc. I have taken a course on statistic and thus understand completely the weakness of using it on such as a small scale as a gaming group or even a couple of gaming group. Also Vegas is based on statistic of a much larger sample then D&D players. And yes sure a lucky gambler might get visited by Vegas goons but that doesn't mean he didn't just win due getting lucky.
Johnny_Angel 02-22-07, 02:03 PM	That may be true for you, and that may have been true overall about ten or more years ago when gamers were primarily students (either in college or high school). Most gamers (certainly the majority that I've run into) are now middle class professionals, and these days finding time to meet someone else with an equally crowded schedule for a "few minutes" can be a real chore. That's especially true if you are seperated by any significant geographic distance. Yes, but again, if you are socializing you aren't making characters either for the most part (or at the very least doing so slower) so you still are losing playing time and thus paying an opportunity cost in time. -Polaris It's more than possible to socialize and make a character simultaneously, but that really has no real impact on this discussion, so I digress. Yet again, I've been saying the same thing the whole time. For me, point buy provides no huge benefit over random generation. I've already admitted that for some groups point-buy probably works better due to the circumstances surrounding their game, but, for me, I prefer random generation, and random generation works just as well as point-buy does for the game I'm involved in. Not that it really matters, but (for the record) I'm not a student in high school, nor am I someone who doesn't have a career. Each individual has different circumstances surrounding the time they have for various things, so I don't feel that you can generalize and group a whole demographic into a category which needs to use point-buy. I simply felt that needed to be mentioned. I don't feel that you can generalize that demographic of players any more than you can generalize by saying that "the majority of gamers use point-buy."
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 02:12 PM	Doesn't have to be. All PH races and subraces of the same all have a move of 20'. 20' movement is a de facto base speed of a small creature thus it's perfectly fair to point to enhance movement for both the Kobold and Goblin. No it doesn't. You can overcome light sensitivity with a feat. You can not get natural armor with a feat. Natural Armor > Light sensitivity. Cha based rogues suck. Even with the rogue's skill points, you are much better off simply investing points in the appropriate skills and letting synergy take it's course. The only cha based skill really worthwhile to a rogue is bluff (and there are all kinds of way to boost that without charisma) and UMD (same, same). In short, even for a cha-based rogue, Int is far more impotant than Cha. Who says it's a one dimensional character? IMHO and IMX that argument is trotted out when you run out of valid ones. Two Words: Oberoni Fallacy. Of course the DM has a right to rule-zero anything....but such houserules do not serve as a defense for a written rule. -Polaris Sure cha. rogues suck(whatever) but if you just didn't cling to one point you'll realize halfling get more bonus to rogue skills(like listen, jump, and climb) then a koblod who only has a advantage in one skill and negatives in two skills that you think is important( Bluff and UMD). And a +1 bonus on all saves which to me is better then a +10 movement since you can take feat to make up the difference. And at higher levels a +1 Ac it doesn't matter as much as the -1 per level HP you recieved...also a character without Light sensetivity doesn't have to spend a feat to negate it thus it is still a drawback. Sure but then the arguement is irrelvant if you want but he is not cheating at playing the game.
Polaris 02-22-07, 02:12 PM	Sure it does as it seems to disprove your point that it is the standard that people don't have time for this. I actualy not only think some do have the time for this but they should generate characters in this fashion even if they do use point buy as it will create a much healthier(as in everybody having fun) gaming group. No it doesn't. It only proves that your group is willing to pay the time-cost for the methode. That's all. Also your point about getting together electronicaly to discuss this stuff before hand assumes a couple of things which you can't prove is true for all groups: 1) everybody has access to the internet all the time. There are people still in this country that don'r own a computer or if they do computer do crash and need repair etc. If you have taken a statistic course you'll realize why the first poll done by phone failed. Completely. If you are talking about the Reader's Digest Poll, than sure. However, in this day of Internet Cafes, Cell Phones, and the like, it's not unreasonable to think that by and large you can organize the group electronically before meeting for the first time. Certainly even without computer access, however, a person with point buy can completely build a character and then submitted to a DM audit on arrival. 2) That everyone has all the books that they might need to realize their concepts. Not everyone owns all the books due to expense and etc. It's up to the DM to specify which books are allowed and which are not. The above is not a problem unique to either system so I discount it entirely. I have taken a course on statistic and thus understand completely the weakness of using it on such as a small scale as a gaming group or even a couple of gaming group. Then review your notes. It's the number of samples that matter, not the size of the group. There are enough d20 rolls in a campaign to give a reasonable sample. There are not enough in a random char-gen for a single character to do the same. Also Vegas is based on statistic of a much larger sample then D&D players. And yes sure a lucky gambler might get visited by Vegas goons but that doesn't mean he didn't just win due getting lucky. Sure, but the same principles apply. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 02:25 PM	No it doesn't. It only proves that your group is willing to pay the time-cost for the methode. That's all. If you are talking about the Reader's Digest Poll, than sure. However, in this day of Internet Cafes, Cell Phones, and the like, it's not unreasonable to think that by and large you can organize the group electronically before meeting for the first time. Certainly even without computer access, however, a person with point buy can completely build a character and then submitted to a DM audit on arrival. It's up to the DM to specify which books are allowed and which are not. The above is not a problem unique to either system so I discount it entirely. Then review your notes. It's the number of samples that matter, not the size of the group. There are enough d20 rolls in a campaign to give a reasonable sample. There are not enough in a random char-gen for a single character to do the same. Sure, but the same principles apply. -Polaris So do you kepp track of all d20 rolls in your game to see who might be cheating? And even with all this calucation you might not be 100% correct because annomalies happen? Also I don't get your statement that my experience in that people have the time do so is not as important as your experience that people don't? I am not saying you are wrong but how does you experiences prove my experiences wrong? What I am saying is that it can't be proven either way. Though we do this also but if you don't have the time to come over to my house or stop by the gaming store then how come the group has time to sit down at their computer or at a internet cafe to have this discuusiion. I really like haveing this discussion live because having a conservation over E-mail or IM looses alot. And you know not everybody owns a cell phone either(and also the minutes are killer). Sure I allow all books or some or even just core. This doesn't gurantee that player can afford these books or the might be a hundred different reason they don't own them.
Polaris 02-22-07, 02:26 PM	Sure cha. rogues suck(whatever) but if you just didn't cling to one point you'll realize halfling get more bonus to rogue skills(like listen, jump, and climb) then a koblod who only has a advantage in one skill and negatives in two skills that you think is important( Bluff and UMD). And a +1 bonus on all saves which to me is better then a +10 movement since you can take feat to make up the difference. 1. Unless you are psionic, you can't make up the difference in movement (unless there is a 10' movement feat other than psionic speed that I haven't heard of). The best feat to do that is 5'. 2. Halfings suck eggs at jump and climb because of their low strength and small size. Admittedly so to goblins, but that means that the +1 here doesn't mean very much. OTOH, the +4 to move-silently is huge for any rogue. 3. Goblins get Darkvision. Halflings suck without a light source or magic items (can't even sneak attack with any darkness penalty). And at higher levels a +1 Ac it doesn't matter as much as the -1 per level HP you recieved...also a character without Light sensetivity doesn't have to spend a feat to negate it thus it is still a drawback. Goblins don't have a Con penalty. As for Kobolds, I am pointing out using SS standards that natural armor is normally reserved for races of LA+1 or more. The fact the kobold gets it means directly that lower stats are being traded in for better bennies which was my point. I never claimed that the trade was a good one in this case. Sure but then the arguement is irrelvant if you want but he is not cheating at playing the game. Actually yes it is. If you are defending the 4d6 drop lowest method, then defend that method. Otherwise don't. -Polaris
Polaris 02-22-07, 02:32 PM	So do you kepp track of all d20 rolls in your game to see who might be cheating? And even with all this calucation you might not be 100% correct because annomalies happen? Actually, yes at least casually. I do pay attention to what a player rolls. IMX most DMs do. Now most DMs don't run it through an RMS test, and I won't either until and unless I get suspicious, but after a few sessions there is enough data even for the casual observer to know if such a test needs to be run. Also I don't get your statement that my experience in that people have the time do so is not as important as your experience that people don't? I am not saying you are wrong but how does you experiences prove my experiences wrong? What I am saying is that it can't be proven either way. Yes it can. With a random char-gen model, the DM has to be physically present to witness the rolls. With a deterministic system he doesn't. That's a definate advantage for deterministic systems. How much of an advantage may vary from group to group, but the fact this advantage exists can not be disputed from a factual basis. Though we do this also but if you don't have the time to come over to my house or stop by the gaming store then how come the group has time to sit down at their computer or at a internet cafe to have this discuusiion. I really like haveing this discussion live because having a conservation over E-mail or IM looses alot. And you know not everybody owns a cell phone either(and also the minutes are killer). Again it's called scheduling. It's not hard (much to the chagrin of many employers) to eek out a few minutes at work or in transit to browse message boards or handle email.....and thus communicate electronically. Face to face meetings are a different kettle of fish entirely. Sure I allow all books or some or even just core. This doesn't gurantee that player can afford these books or the might be a hundred different reason they don't own them. Yes, but that problem is not unique to either system and thus doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 02:44 PM	1. Unless you are psionic, you can't make up the difference in movement (unless there is a 10' movement feat other than psionic speed that I haven't heard of). The best feat to do that is 5'. 2. Halfings suck eggs at jump and climb because of their low strength and small size. Admittedly so to goblins, but that means that the +1 here doesn't mean very much. OTOH, the +4 to move-silently is huge for any rogue. 3. Goblins get Darkvision. Halflings suck without a light source or magic items (can't even sneak attack with any darkness penalty). Goblins don't have a Con penalty. As for Kobolds, I am pointing out using SS standards that natural armor is normally reserved for races of LA+1 or more. The fact the kobold gets it means directly that lower stats are being traded in for better bennies which was my point. I never claimed that the trade was a good one in this case. Actually yes it is. If you are defending the 4d6 drop lowest method, then defend that method. Otherwise don't. -Polaris Well if you want to suggest that he is cheating in the arguement then say so directly. But he isn't cheating by the rules of the game. A goblin get a total of +8 to move silently, a halfling get a +6 to move silently(from race and size) That is a difference of +2 to one skill. A halfling get over the goblin a +1 to Bluff, UMD and climb. And a +2 to listen. Jump get bad for the halfling a gobling geta +2 to jump over the halfling(though neither are really good at it.( Though if the halfling take the Dash feat the bonus swings into his favor by +1) So the difference is overall a goblin gets a total bonus of + 4 rogue type skills while a halfling gets a total of +5. The halfling wins because in my opinion a +1 to all saves, +1 to all thrown weapons and slings, A +2(which stacks with the above bonus) against fear effect...certainly overcomes the Darkvision advantage. But I'll agree that they are close enough maybe to be tied. But a goblin isn't better then a halfling as a rogue. But also this has nothing to do what I said. LA only take racial consideration into play. Thus Feats, Classes, where you place you stats or what you roll, Spells, magic Items are never taken into account for LA. If the did then as you said a single class caster will always excel at mid level no matter what his or her stats are....shouldn't that mean single stat casters should a get a LA? Since it will balance it out( If you know anything about 1st or 2nd they pretty much did this already and got rid of it by having one exp chart.)
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 02:54 PM	Actually, yes at least casually. I do pay attention to what a player rolls. IMX most DMs do. Now most DMs don't run it through an RMS test, and I won't either until and unless I get suspicious, but after a few sessions there is enough data even for the casual observer to know if such a test needs to be run. Yes it can. With a random char-gen model, the DM has to be physically present to witness the rolls. With a deterministic system he doesn't. That's a definate advantage for deterministic systems. How much of an advantage may vary from group to group, but the fact this advantage exists can not be disputed from a factual basis. Again it's called scheduling. It's not hard (much to the chagrin of many employers) to eek out a few minutes at work or in transit to browse message boards or handle email.....and thus communicate electronically. Face to face meetings are a different kettle of fish entirely. Yes, but that problem is not unique to either system and thus doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion. -Polaris Ok but the RMS test does not prove cheating. Since anamolies do exist in the world of statictics. I am just saying in my opion it is not a advantage to not take the time to get together and make characters. Also a few minute pretty much will allow everyone to say what they are playing, and then there is no interaction,"of cool hey we can be realated...or we can have the same mentor...or hey if you take this feat it might fit your concept better." That is what I am talking about not that everyone knows what each other is playing but changing concepts slightly so they fit better RP wise and power level wise. No it is it related to the fact that if everybody creates their characters together(thus it is a advantage to do so not a disadvantage) they can all have access to the same books.
Polaris 02-22-07, 02:56 PM	Well if you want to suggest that he is cheating in the arguement then say so directly. But he isn't cheating by the rules of the game. I have. Furthermore, the rule of the game says 4d6 drop lowest. If you say you are using that, but in effect using something else, that's cheating. A goblin get a total of +8 to move silently, a halfling get a +6 to move silently(from race and size) That is a difference of +2 to one skill. A halfling get over the goblin a +1 to Bluff, UMD and climb. And a +2 to listen. Jump get bad for the halfling a gobling geta +2 to jump over the halfling(though neither are really good at it.( Though if the halfling take the Dash feat the bonus swings into his favor by +1) False. Size makes no difference in Move-Silently, only for Hide. Thus the Goblin gets his net +2 but the relative difference is much greater. Also because of slow movement, the Goblin gets +3 over the Halfling in Jump (not +2). Dash doesn't help this because Dash only adds 5' of movement which is not enough to make the precious 30' move mark. As for Bluff and UMD, bluff only really matters for melee rogues and neither the halfling nor goblin are much good at being melee rogues. As for UMD, +1 either way doesn't matter much considering the high but fixed DCs for the skill (the key being FIXED). So really the Halfing has +1 saves, and +2 listen, while the Goblin has (much) better movement (which is essential for the survival of a ranged rogue), better stealth skills, and.....drumroll please.....DARKVISION. So the difference is overall a goblin gets a total bonus of + 4 rogue type skills while a halfling gets a total of +5. The halfling wins because in my opinion a +1 to all saves, +1 to all thrown weapons and slings, A +2(which stacks with the above bonus) against fear effect...certainly overcomes the Darkvision advantage. But I'll agree that they are close enough maybe to be tied. But a goblin isn't better then a halfling as a rogue. Disagree. Darkvision rules especially at lower levels for a rogue and certainly it does when combined with 30' of movement which is a penalty that kills the halfling rogue (often literally). But also this has nothing to do what I said. LA only take racial consideration into play. Thus Feats, Classes, where you place you stats or what you roll, Spells, magic Items are never taken into account for LA. If the did then as you said a single class caster will always excel at mid level no matter what his or her stats are....shouldn't that mean single stat casters should a get a LA? Since it will balance it out( If you know anything about 1st or 2nd they pretty much did this already and got rid of it by having one exp chart.) Well, extra treasure IS taken into account for monster CR (which admittedly is not quite the same thing), and some races do get magical effects from item-like powers and those certainly factor into LA. -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 02:57 PM	We being going bacj and forth for about a hour. I won't reply to anything you respond with till later tonight. It has been fun. And I am sorry if ?I keep bring up the one dimensional character thing but I do veiw it has a weakness in character point buy systems that RCG systems don't have. See you later.
Johnny_Angel 02-22-07, 02:59 PM	Sadly, this discussion has simply become too ridiculous for me to continue to participate in it; as such, this will be my last post on this subject. I'm sorry, but for anyone to claim that their experience is more valid than the experience of another person is just too much for me. Experience is just that - experience, and experience varies among people; as such, I disagree that one person's experience -and by extension their opinion- becomes valid while another person's experience is deemed -seemingly by solely the fact that it's a different experience- to be less valid. I think that experience and experiences are valid things to base opinions on, but I don't feel that the experience of one individual makes his/her opinions fact; the opinions may be very well supported by your experiences, but that in no way makes the experiences of another person any less valid when they state their opinions. My main point throughout the majority of this whole discussion has been that different systems work better for different people. For me, I see my players in person, so it's not a big deal for me to take a little bit of time to generate stats. For others, that might be a problem, and they are free to use whatever system they deem easier for them to use, but I disagree with the idea that because something works for one group that it makes what works for other groups any less valid.
Polaris 02-22-07, 03:01 PM	Ok but the RMS test does not prove cheating. Since anamolies do exist in the world of statictics. Professional gamblers and statisticians beg to differ with you here. Understand that if the anamoly is severe enough, most such won't care. Cheating will be assumed (as it rightly should be). The point is that cheating creates a definate and discernable statistical "footprint" that RMS can detect, and indications are that cheating is rampant amoung those that use the random char-gen system. I am just saying in my opion it is not a advantage to not take the time to get together and make characters. Also a few minute pretty much will allow everyone to say what they are playing, and then there is no interaction,"of cool hey we can be realated...or we can have the same mentor...or hey if you take this feat it might fit your concept better." That is what I am talking about not that everyone knows what each other is playing but changing concepts slightly so they fit better RP wise and power level wise. Yes, but you can still do that with deterministic systems. You must do that with random systems. Advantage: Deterministic systems. I don't see how this is arguable. No it is it related to the fact that if everybody creates their characters together(thus it is a advantage to do so not a disadvantage) they can all have access to the same books. And everyone still has (or at least can have) access to the same books with a deterministic system as well, so the point doesn't hold. -Polaris
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-22-07, 04:55 PM	Actually, yes at least casually. I do pay attention to what a player rolls. IMX most DMs do. Now most DMs don't run it through an RMS test, and I won't either until and unless I get suspicious, but after a few sessions there is enough data even for the casual observer to know if such a test needs to be run. If a DM ever said "hey, I think your dice may be imbalanced, let me test them." and after testing them told me to buy new dice I think I would be very cross. I have never told the Dm to get rid of his "lucky dice" that have killed off more of my characters than I care to remember. Polaris, the long and short of it is that you are way too worried about things that do not matter one bit in the grand scheme of things and certanly not in the realm of gaming. This is not a contest. This is a game that people have fun at. If you can't use your favorite dice (especially for those of us who don't intentionally cheat) than your DM is a overcontrolling gamemonger that needs to relax and realize that you have a slight statistical advantage is not going to ruin his life. I am fine with people saying they like point buy. Just don't push your crap on me.
Polaris 02-22-07, 05:01 PM	If a DM ever said "hey, I think your dice may be imbalanced, let me test them." and after testing them told me to buy new dice I think I would be very cross. I have never told the Dm to get rid of his "lucky dice" that have killed off more of my characters than I care to remember. Don't let the door hit you on the posterior on the way out then. It's (one) fundamental responsibility of the DM to insure that his players are rolling fair dice and otherwise not cheating. If you got cross, then I'd take that as evidence of the same and for that matter most DMs that I know of anyway would feel the same. Polaris, the long and short of it is that you are way too worried about things that do not matter one bit in the grand scheme of things and certanly not in the realm of gaming. This is not a contest. This is a game that people have fun at. If you can't use your favorite dice (especially for those of us who don't intentionally cheat) than your DM is a overcontrolling gamemonger that needs to relax and realize that you have a slight statistical advantage is not going to ruin his life. Deterministic systems are fair. Random systems are not. That's just the long and short of it. I am fine with people saying they like point buy. Just don't push your crap on me. I'm not. I am not beating down your door and making you change your mind. I am just showing that random systems are generally unbalanced and unfair (at least from a gamist PoV) and that matters in 21st century RPGs. That's all I am doing. -Polaris Edit PS: Also the notion that deterministic systems "make" a player create one-dimension characters is just false. First of all in most cases, one dimension characters suffer from BAD min-maxing (remember that 'min' means to minimize your weaknesses). In the second place, not all deterministic systems have to be point buy. The array system doesn't create one-dimensional characters and it certainly is non-random. Third, there is no reason why a player can't create a rounded character regardless of system....don't blame the system for a one-dimensional character; blame the player.
FoulQ 02-22-07, 11:18 PM	Thank you Polaris for defending PB. 4d6 is a joke
BW0222 02-23-07, 02:17 AM	Folks, Polaris is correct on his points. For those who say that rolling is more common than point buy, the fact is that we don't know that. Most of my games are point buy. I won't DM anything that isn't. However, I have no idea what the majority of folks do. (Please don't post that you do or don't use point buy, that is completely unscientific.) However, those that dismiss Polaris' point about the RPGA and CRPG using point buy are dreaming. Nearly every organized or shared campaign uses point buy of some sort -- from Living Greyhawk, Living Death, Living Arcanis, Living City, Living Jungle, Living Force, etc., etc. If rolling wasn't an issue, then why do all shared campaigns use it? I don't feel that it makes the game predetermined at all. I will agree that the player with the high stats probably has more chance to overcome obstacles than a player with lower stats, but both players still have a 50/50 chance of living through an adventure or dying during the adventure. In what world? Get real. +2 to a couple of stats is worth a level adjustment. If you take a 32 point buy character into a 28 point buy campaign... you definitely notice. A 32 point buy is about the maximum range of the CR system. At 40 points (let alone the 50 or so this guy has) you are well into the +2 LA range. That character who is +3 ability points above the other characters is likely 25% more likely to hit, 25% less likely to be hit, does 15% more damage, has 20% more skill points, 20% more hit point, 20% more likely to success on a skill check, 20% more likely to save, have 20% more spells, etc. (or some combination there of) over his fellow players. And the player is just as likely as anyone else to die? Sorry. That makes no sense. I suppose my only problem with this point of view is that I don't see why a DM is any less capable of creating encounters which involve the whole party due to one person having high stats. You can't see why? Because someone with high stats will hit more often, do more damage, be hit less often, have more hit points, etc. You'll need tougher opponents to challenge him. You'll need to increase your opponents AC by 2 points to make up for the increased to hit rolls, you'll need to give them more hit points to cover the extra damage he does, you'll need to give him better attack rolls so he can hit the PC. Fine... you now have a balanced opponent for him. Unforunately, if the creature turns his attention on the 'lesser' PCs... they are dramatically more likely to be killed. As I've said in my previous posts, if you like point buy, that's fine, but I think it's ridiculous to automatically assume a game won't be fun based on the stats of one PC. And yet we'll seen it. I've certainly seen it end a campaign. As a DM, it isn't fun for me. It makes my job of determining appropriate combat encounters much more difficult. The CR system is completely out. It means I have to work harder to avoid what I expect to happen (he dominates the game) or folks get bored with him always defeating the nasty or spending rounds of 'aid another' because they can't hit the nasty. I need to meta-game to avoid killing PCs and to have the one creature always go for the person who can handle it. Is is possible it won't cause any problems? Sure. Is it probable that it won't cause problems? No. Sorry. Experience shows that certain things lead to problems in the campaign. Evil PCs, high LA characters, druids in campaigns where other players aren't heavily optimizing characters, player vs. player, CN rogues who steal from the party, and yes massive spreads in ability scores. Personally, I'm not going to invest months into a campaign if folks can't address the most common causes of campaigns tanking.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 02:19 AM	I have. Furthermore, the rule of the game says 4d6 drop lowest. If you say you are using that, but in effect using something else, that's cheating. False. Size makes no difference in Move-Silently, only for Hide. Thus the Goblin gets his net +2 but the relative difference is much greater. Also because of slow movement, the Goblin gets +3 over the Halfling in Jump (not +2). Dash doesn't help this because Dash only adds 5' of movement which is not enough to make the precious 30' move mark. As for Bluff and UMD, bluff only really matters for melee rogues and neither the halfling nor goblin are much good at being melee rogues. As for UMD, +1 either way doesn't matter much considering the high but fixed DCs for the skill (the key being FIXED). So really the Halfing has +1 saves, and +2 listen, while the Goblin has (much) better movement (which is essential for the survival of a ranged rogue), better stealth skills, and.....drumroll please.....DARKVISION. Disagree. Darkvision rules especially at lower levels for a rogue and certainly it does when combined with 30' of movement which is a penalty that kills the halfling rogue (often literally). Well, extra treasure IS taken into account for monster CR (which admittedly is not quite the same thing), and some races do get magical effects from item-like powers and those certainly factor into LA. -Polaris Yes you are correct sothe difference relatively though is a +2 vs a +4 how is still a +2 difference. I don't see how it is different. You are right it is a larger gap. Also Dash does make a difference as you recieve penalties for evey 10' of movement below 30, Since your movement is above 20'(where you get the penalty) you do not suffer it. If you don't believe me read your PhB. Also if you believe Bluff is only useful in melee combat skill the I guess I look at other ways to deal with encounter then combat and you don't. Also a rogue's damage in combat comes from SA, bluff allows SA in more situration. So I think you underestiminate it's importance. Also a +2 to listen much more important to a rogue the a +2(effective edge that a goblin has over a halfling in Move Silently) since a rogue will probably have a high dex(let say both have a dex of 18...then those numbers are a +8 to a +6) most rogue don't have that high of a wisdom score so any bonus to listen is much more desired. But what ever I am willing to agree to disagree here it isn't important. But you are wrong LA and Cr are two completely different things. Also what items that effect a creature special abilities had a effect on their LA. I can think only one item that might describe this and that is the Daazzix's Vest from DMG 2 which gaved a +5 bonus to natural SR. I haven't noticed any errata after this item came out about raising any LA(or CR for that matter) of creature with Sr. So this a very empty arguement.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 02:33 AM	Professional gamblers and statisticians beg to differ with you here. Understand that if the anamoly is severe enough, most such won't care. Cheating will be assumed (as it rightly should be). The point is that cheating creates a definate and discernable statistical "footprint" that RMS can detect, and indications are that cheating is rampant amoung those that use the random char-gen system. Yes, but you can still do that with deterministic systems. You must do that with random systems. Advantage: Deterministic systems. I don't see how this is arguable. And everyone still has (or at least can have) access to the same books with a deterministic system as well, so the point doesn't hold. -Polaris Well as I said gamblers treat their addiction as a science...which it can be though true gamblers like game where bluffing and guessing what some one else is doing then games based on complete random chance. And statisticians don't like to admitt to anamolies because it means there jobs are less important as they can't gurantee 100% correct answears. So yeah they will disagree with me it is in their best interest to do so. Also you are wrong there is a way for someone to randomly generate stats without the DM being there. There is a website(I don't have the name with me right now) that will generate stats for people and e-mail them to you. Since it is a third party souce I doubt that it will be cheating involved. So both sides can have this 'advantage', Sure everybody has access to the all the same books if they spend the hour. So you got everyone doing the same thing. And rolling stats would probably make it go faster as you don't have to carefuly plan out where you put the points.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 02:50 AM	Don't let the door hit you on the posterior on the way out then. It's (one) fundamental responsibility of the DM to insure that his players are rolling fair dice and otherwise not cheating. If you got cross, then I'd take that as evidence of the same and for that matter most DMs that I know of anyway would feel the same. Deterministic systems are fair. Random systems are not. That's just the long and short of it. I'm not. I am not beating down your door and making you change your mind. I am just showing that random systems are generally unbalanced and unfair (at least from a gamist PoV) and that matters in 21st century RPGs. That's all I am doing. -Polaris Edit PS: Also the notion that deterministic systems "make" a player create one-dimension characters is just false. First of all in most cases, one dimension characters suffer from BAD min-maxing (remember that 'min' means to minimize your weaknesses). In the second place, not all deterministic systems have to be point buy. The array system doesn't create one-dimensional characters and it certainly is non-random. Third, there is no reason why a player can't create a rounded character regardless of system....don't blame the system for a one-dimensional character; blame the player. Random Stat generation does create a fair character system especialy in this edition as there are a ton more factors then just stats. Also as any person who pay attention to industry standard Point base system lend them selves incredibly to abuse though min/maxing, munchkinism and etc. And the player doesn't even have to resort to cheating. So if a player is better at this he will creat a more powerful character then a player less skilled. So how is this balanced? Also while you might not like this system( I general don't) But the only other RPG out there that uses Random Stat Generation is Palladium. And you know it has been around for a long time and is still popular.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:13 AM	Folks, Polaris is correct on his points. For those who say that rolling is more common than point buy, the fact is that we don't know that. Most of my games are point buy. I won't DM anything that isn't. However, I have no idea what the majority of folks do. (Please don't post that you do or don't use point buy, that is completely unscientific.) However, those that dismiss Polaris' point about the RPGA and CRPG using point buy are dreaming. Nearly every organized or shared campaign uses point buy of some sort -- from Living Greyhawk, Living Death, Living Arcanis, Living City, Living Jungle, Living Force, etc., etc. If rolling wasn't an issue, then why do all shared campaigns use it? In what world? Get real. +2 to a couple of stats is worth a level adjustment. If you take a 32 point buy character into a 28 point buy campaign... you definitely notice. A 32 point buy is about the maximum range of the CR system. At 40 points (let alone the 50 or so this guy has) you are well into the +2 LA range. That character who is +3 ability points above the other characters is likely 25% more likely to hit, 25% less likely to be hit, does 15% more damage, has 20% more skill points, 20% more hit point, 20% more likely to success on a skill check, 20% more likely to save, have 20% more spells, etc. (or some combination there of) over his fellow players. And the player is just as likely as anyone else to die? Sorry. That makes no sense. You can't see why? Because someone with high stats will hit more often, do more damage, be hit less often, have more hit points, etc. You'll need tougher opponents to challenge him. You'll need to increase your opponents AC by 2 points to make up for the increased to hit rolls, you'll need to give them more hit points to cover the extra damage he does, you'll need to give him better attack rolls so he can hit the PC. Fine... you now have a balanced opponent for him. Unforunately, if the creature turns his attention on the 'lesser' PCs... they are dramatically more likely to be killed. And yet we'll seen it. I've certainly seen it end a campaign. As a DM, it isn't fun for me. It makes my job of determining appropriate combat encounters much more difficult. The CR system is completely out. It means I have to work harder to avoid what I expect to happen (he dominates the game) or folks get bored with him always defeating the nasty or spending rounds of 'aid another' because they can't hit the nasty. I need to meta-game to avoid killing PCs and to have the one creature always go for the person who can handle it. Is is possible it won't cause any problems? Sure. Is it probable that it won't cause problems? No. Sorry. Experience shows that certain things lead to problems in the campaign. Evil PCs, high LA characters, druids in campaigns where other players aren't heavily optimizing characters, player vs. player, CN rogues who steal from the party, and yes massive spreads in ability scores. Personally, I'm not going to invest months into a campaign if folks can't address the most common causes of campaigns tanking. I don't dis count her statement about the RPGA and such...but that doesn't apply to the larger number of smaller groups out there. Nor does it stop cheating. I have been a member of the RGPA and atleast around me it was soo corrupt. I understand why they do it. I just don't there standards apply to smaller groups. I also don't have any trouble balancing encounters with unbalance stats. Because stats aren't that important to game play. Also how would you know? You have said you'll never run a game with RSG. So how many DMs have you observed? What is your sciectific study data. Were all DMs of the highest skilled? Again sure this is all based on experience and opinion( it is Polaris who discounts other people's experiences aren't important only his). Like I said in my experience and opinion both Point buy and random stat generations have their pro and cons in regard to balance and fairness. But the most memorable characters that I have played or seen played have been the result of Random Stat generation.
Polaris 02-23-07, 04:30 AM	Random Stat generation does create a fair character system especialy in this edition as there are a ton more factors then just stats. No it does not create a fair system. A random system is not fair in terms of opportunity....only in outcome. This goes back to the example (pages ago) of putting a 50kg pack on all the players of a football team after they lost the coin toss. The game is pretty much decided after the coin-toss and thus isn't very fun or fair by any conventional sense. It's the same thing here. Also as any person who pay attention to industry standard Point base system lend them selves incredibly to abuse though min/maxing, munchkinism and etc. And the player doesn't even have to resort to cheating. So if a player is better at this he will creat a more powerful character then a player less skilled. So how is this balanced? There are several things wrong with this. In the first place, your assertion that a Point-Buy system leads to horrid abuse by Munckinism and Min-Maxing is both ill defined and begs for proof. The second thing that's wrong with it is that you admit that any power differences would depend on player skill. On a fairness issue, what is wrong with player skill being rewarded? On a pratical balance issue, skill is something that can be shared within the group. None of that is true with the random char-gen system. Finally, you are assuming that Min-Maxing is bad. You come periously close (and IMHO fall victim) to the Stormwind fallacy on this one. Also while you might not like this system( I general don't) But the only other RPG out there that uses Random Stat Generation is Palladium. And you know it has been around for a long time and is still popular. Palladium is not very popular and it's certainly not new and it certainly isn't balanced (RIFTS definately is not). Bad example if you want to defend Point Buy. -Polaris
Polaris 02-23-07, 04:37 AM	Well as I said gamblers treat their addiction as a science...which it can be though true gamblers like game where bluffing and guessing what some one else is doing then games based on complete random chance. And statisticians don't like to admitt to anamolies because it means there jobs are less important as they can't gurantee 100% correct answears. So yeah they will disagree with me it is in their best interest to do so. I beg your pardon but much of Quantum Field Theory rests on Statistical Mechanics as does modern Theromdynamics including the random walk and modern Chaos theory. Dismissing statistical analysis as "treating an addiction like science" is so off-base and so disrespectful to modern physics, I hardly know where to begin. Also you are wrong there is a way for someone to randomly generate stats without the DM being there. There is a website(I don't have the name with me right now) that will generate stats for people and e-mail them to you. Since it is a third party souce I doubt that it will be cheating involved. So both sides can have this 'advantage', There are several such sites including one (dicey) that I used when I was an avid Axis and Allies gamer. Guess what? Invariably computer generated dice rolls tend to be loaded (they tend to be streaky) as well because computers use a psuedo-random function to generate it's results. That is, it's not random. The latest computers can generate true random numbers via a thermal chip, but they tend to be very expensive with very expensive CPU time and not something that you can use for a casual game. Regardless, it's nearly impossible to verify even with such a program die rolls assuming you trust a CPU generated result (which as I explained you should not). Sure everybody has access to the all the same books if they spend the hour. So you got everyone doing the same thing. And rolling stats would probably make it go faster as you don't have to carefuly plan out where you put the points. That doesn't follow. There is no reason the players won't have the books prior to arrival and most generally will (at least the core books anyway). -Polaris
Polaris 02-23-07, 04:46 AM	I don't dis count her statement about the RPGA and such...but that doesn't apply to the larger number of smaller groups out there. Nor does it stop cheating. I have been a member of the RGPA and atleast around me it was soo corrupt. I understand why they do it. I just don't there standards apply to smaller groups. It doesn't? It sure does to me since it's the larger groups and Cons (like BW mentioned) that drive what is gaming industry standard. That's just the way it is (and always has been since the earliest days of GenCon and RPGA). In addition problems with fairness and character balance show up first and worst with larger groups without common ties of background, friendship, or both. Thus the fact that Cons and larger organized tournaments NEED to use the deterministic system and do so almost exclusively should be a prime indicator that the deterministic system is the superior system because it depends least on social factors to overcome deficiencies that arise. As for cheating, of course in a large group of people, some will try to take advantage whenever and however they can. It's called human nature. That said, the deterministic system helps keep it in check. Prior to the influx of deterministic char-gen methods, many larger groups were reduced to pre-gens for all of the reasons that BW already mentioned. I also don't have any trouble balancing encounters with unbalance stats. Because stats aren't that important to game play. Also how would you know? You have said you'll never run a game with RSG. So how many DMs have you observed? What is your sciectific study data. Were all DMs of the highest skilled? Colour me skeptical. BW gave excellent and objective reasons why such problems exist including statistical differences starting from the lowest levels. The numbers don't lie here. As for stats being unimportant to gameplay, that's just not so. Not even WOTC believes that given the racial LA rules nor should anyone else given the strong relative difference (especially at levels 1-3) that unbalanced stats create (as objectively documented already). Again sure this is all based on experience and opinion( it is Polaris who discounts other people's experiences aren't important only his). Like I said in my experience and opinion both Point buy and random stat generations have their pro and cons in regard to balance and fairness. But the most memorable characters that I have played or seen played have been the result of Random Stat generation. Individual experience is worthless for such analysis* and I haven't based my arguments on my experience. Instead I have shown why on a gaming industry/community wide standard random char-gen is sadly lacking. -Poalris *For individual experience to be worth anything, it would have to be correlated with many other groups with different experiences under controlled conditions, i.e. playtesting. However overall experience after decades of gaming can give leading indicators (but playtesting is still needed in many cases).
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-23-07, 12:11 PM	I see. I was just doing some research on the differences between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Neither system (rolling or PB) ensures an equality of outcome although I will admit (due to the lesser degree of variance) that PB is probably closer. Neither system guarantees 100% equality since individual characters can have vastly different benefits from the same system. So, I will concede that for people who absolutely must be equal in stat bonuses that PB is closer but not even close to perfect. For the record. I am still sticking with rolling since equality of opportunity is what is important to me.
CCS 02-23-07, 01:21 PM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. Wow, nice rolling. I have to say though that I'm in the camp of "This WON'T break your game". All you need to do is write up a good character to go along with these stats and then actually role-play it. There's alot of positive, creative things you can do - other than donning the heaviest armour & swinging for the most damage.
Olskool 02-23-07, 02:23 PM	Furthermore, the rule of the game says 4d6 drop lowest. If you say you are using that, but in effect using something else, that's cheating. . -Polaris So point buy is cheating? I always knew it. No one wonder munchkins like PB so much.
Polaris 02-23-07, 02:27 PM	So point buy is cheating? I always knew it. No one wonder munchkins like PB so much. No it's not and I've already explained my position at length. The default random system in DnD is 4d6 drop the lowest. Point-Buy exists in the rules also (DMG page 169 v. 3.5). However, those of you that defend the random char-gen and do not use the random rules presented in the game are in fact cheating. Furthermore those that fudge or skew 4d6 rolls (dropping ones, unauthorized rerolls, etc) are fundamentally altering the statistical variation and thus are also cheating. -Polaris
Wolf72 02-23-07, 03:04 PM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. Late advice ... but, go with a sub-standard class. AKA not something that can dominate any specfic roll (cleric, fighter, wizard) ... you'd make a great bard or monk with those stats. Monk: Str 18 Dex 18 Con 17 Int 16 Wis 18 Cha 17 Bard: Int, Dex, Cha: 18's Str 16 Con, Wis: 17's
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:10 PM	I beg your pardon but much of Quantum Field Theory rests on Statistical Mechanics as does modern Theromdynamics including the random walk and modern Chaos theory. Dismissing statistical analysis as "treating an addiction like science" is so off-base and so disrespectful to modern physics, I hardly know where to begin. There are several such sites including one (dicey) that I used when I was an avid Axis and Allies gamer. Guess what? Invariably computer generated dice rolls tend to be loaded (they tend to be streaky) as well because computers use a psuedo-random function to generate it's results. That is, it's not random. The latest computers can generate true random numbers via a thermal chip, but they tend to be very expensive with very expensive CPU time and not something that you can use for a casual game. Regardless, it's nearly impossible to verify even with such a program die rolls assuming you trust a CPU generated result (which as I explained you should not). That doesn't follow. There is no reason the players won't have the books prior to arrival and most generally will (at least the core books anyway). -Polaris First a Theory is not a fact...it is a educated guess. Second the thugs at vegas don't care if you get lucky they just care that you won money. I don't have a disrespect for it I just understand that it is only a theory and not a fact. . But the point since you was about that it is fair is that you said random rolls had to be done infront of the DM thus it is another different advantage of point buy over random stats. Since it is a third party they don't really care about about cheating. You see you made a couple of points in your arguement I am answearing each separetly...that is is how you debate. I am sorry it doesn't follow either to assume all players own the books to either. I know alot of players who don't own a book. Sure you can lend them one but that will require time that you seem to think no one has because you don't have it.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:19 PM	I see. I was just doing some research on the differences between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Neither system (rolling or PB) ensures an equality of outcome although I will admit (due to the lesser degree of variance) that PB is probably closer. Neither system guarantees 100% equality since individual characters can have vastly different benefits from the same system. So, I will concede that for people who absolutely must be equal in stat bonuses that PB is closer but not even close to perfect. For the record. I am still sticking with rolling since equality of opportunity is what is important to me. I'll agree with him. @ Polaris: time will tell if your interpertation of the industyry trends will hold true. I don't think they will. Anyway lets agree to disagree on this and have fun gaming that is the important things.
Polaris 02-23-07, 03:20 PM	First a Theory is not a fact...it is a educated guess. Second the thugs at vegas don't care if you get lucky they just care that you won money. I don't have a disrespect for it I just understand that it is only a theory and not a fact. Whatever else your background may be, your scientific literacy is sorely lacking. That much is evident. A theory is not an educated guess. That's something I make sure my physical science students learn. A hypothesis is an educated guess. A theory is a construction designed to explain a phenomena or series of phenomena based on available fact and subject to future experimentation (as is all science). Equating theory as unproven shows your ignorance. Sorry to be that harsh, but it really does. . But the point since you was about that it is fair is that you said random rolls had to be done infront of the DM thus it is another different advantage of point buy over random stats. Since it is a third party they don't really care about about cheating. You see you made a couple of points in your arguement I am answearing each separetly...that is is how you debate. Yes you do. How do you verify that the person only did this many rolls? How can you tell that the program wasn't skewed? For that matter how do you tell that the person wasn't lying. I've been involved with web-dice and I can tell you that such things are fraught with difficulty....and that's assuming that everyone trusts the computerized random system which anyone with an iota of programming knowledge certainly doesn't! I am sorry it doesn't follow either to assume all players own the books to either. I know alot of players who don't own a book. Sure you can lend them one but that will require time that you seem to think no one has because you don't have it. Again you willfully miss the point. If the player in question doesn't own all the books, then at worst you are no worse off with point buy than with the random system. However, you can (for private use only of course) email or send relevant sections, explain section, and the player in question can certainly plan his point buy much more readily than he can roll (because that requires supervision). Also without endorsing illegal activities in any way (and in fact I despise them), it's been my unfortunate experience that downloaded materials especially with the somewhat younger crowd abound....further cutting into your argument that books aren't "available". -Polaris Edit PS: I also add that it's prefectly reasonable for a DM to insist that his players have certain books if he is using them in the game (and equally reasonable that he restrict the use of others). Thus it's the player's responsibility to have the appropriate books further emasculating your counter-argument.
Polaris 02-23-07, 03:30 PM	I'll agree with him. @ Polaris: time will tell if your interpertation of the industyry trends will hold true. I don't think they will. Really? You do realize that Pyke doesn't know what he's talking about when he discusses fairness of opportunity then? You do realize this, no? That's because in any deterministic system there is complete fairness in opportunity because everyone is given the same resources with the same ability to use them. Thus the differences occure because of player skill and that is not a bad thing no matter how much some of you try to make it (especially since such skill can be taught to other players and shared with the group). As for industry standards, those are already being set by RPGA and all the large Cons like they've always been. I am 99+% certain that if the game survives it will go in the direction I stated (and in fact already has). -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:41 PM	As for industry standards, those are already being set by RPGA and all the large Cons like they've always been. I am 99+% certain that if the game survives it will go in the direction I stated (and in fact already has). -Polaris If they base their industry standards on RPGA and 'large' cons then they are wrong. Because the majority of gamers aren't in the RGPA or go to cons. Also there is a lot of rules that the RGPA has with character creation that isn't going to be made a standard. Also the RGPA has always had point buy. Since atleast during 2nd edition. If it was setting 'standards' back then why didn't 3rd edition D&D have point buy as the main rule and not a optional rule?
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:45 PM	Yes you do. How do you verify that the person only did this many rolls? How can you tell that the program wasn't skewed? For that matter how do you tell that the person wasn't lying. I've been involved with web-dice and I can tell you that such things are fraught with difficulty....and that's assuming that everyone trusts the computerized random system which anyone with an iota of programming knowledge certainly doesn't! Because the DM set it up and get a e-mail of all the rolls for his game and which each player got player got what. And again this isn't about your arguement about it being 'fair' it is about your arguement about it being time consuming. It is a service not just a random number generator.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-23-07, 03:52 PM	Really? You do realize that Pyke doesn't know what he's talking about when he discusses fairness of opportunity then? You do realize this, no? That's because in any deterministic system there is complete fairness in opportunity because everyone is given the same resources with the same ability to use them. Thus the differences occure because of player skill and that is not a bad thing no matter how much some of you try to make it (especially since such skill can be taught to other players and shared with the group). As for industry standards, those are already being set by RPGA and all the large Cons like they've always been. I am 99+% certain that if the game survives it will go in the direction I stated (and in fact already has). -Polaris I don't know what I am talking about? Fairness of opportunity - everyone has the same chance for something. I.e. We all roll the same 4d6 and all have the same opportunity for good stats or we all use 28 point buy. Fairness in outcome - everyone reaps the same benefits. I.e. everyone has a total stat bonus of +6.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:55 PM	Whatever else your background may be, your scientific literacy is sorely lacking. That much is evident. A theory is not an educated guess. That's something I make sure my physical science students learn. A hypothesis is an educated guess. A theory is a construction designed to explain a phenomena or series of phenomena based on available fact and subject to future experimentation (as is all science). Equating theory as unproven shows your ignorance. Sorry to be that harsh, but it really does. Actualy my terminology might be off. It has been a while. But a Theory, if I remeber correct is pretty much a hypotheis that has been proven once or a number of time. But it isn't a law yet(again my science is a bit rusty) yet because it has to go though more intensive study. So in the history of science thoeries have been proven wrong. I am prtetty sure that there are possibly competeing thoeries out there that explain the same things. Again If I am wrong I am not meaning any insult, but aren't there a number off science thoeries explaing evolution( and I am not talking about the religion thoeries). I mean Darwin Thoery and the one about a sudden change etc. I am not asking to disprute you I am asking to understand. You have more knowledge of this the I do I'll admitt.
Olskool 02-23-07, 03:59 PM	Point buy is cheating. Those who use it are cheaters and should be shunned.
itwasntme 02-23-07, 04:12 PM	Most people will not see a big deal having high stats sense your playing a fighter becouse most people do not see the possibly of how strong a fighter can be later in game becouse there harder to become powerfull at you should play a monk/paladin and that will allow you not to be stronger then the other players it will just allow you to be with the party You wount out shine the party if you play a Paladin/Monk early on or higher on Being powerfull isnt about the Class its about the player behind the Class you can make any class powerfull so dount sweat just use thouse scores on a Paladin/monk
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 04:19 PM	Point buy is cheating. Those who use it are cheaters and should be shunned. You know you are soo old school I have the feeling you believe that of fire and the wheel. :D
goblin_pride 02-23-07, 07:03 PM	Edit PS: I also add that it's prefectly reasonable for a DM to insist that his players have certain books if he is using them in the game (and equally reasonable that he restrict the use of others). Thus it's the player's responsibility to have the appropriate books further emasculating your counter-argument. An argument or counter-argument (sic) is neither male or female so therefore cannot be emasculated. Sorry, just needed to be said, Mr Science teacher that should bloody well know that a Theory is a freaking guess until it's proven true to the point it becomes law. PB is a variant rule, that's why it's hidden away in the DMG rather than in the PHB, where all the other character creation methods are.
Polaris 02-23-07, 09:24 PM	I don't know what I am talking about? No you don't and you didn't read the post where it was explained. Samuel Clemmons once had a pithy piece of advice for people such as yourself. It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Fairness of opportunity - everyone has the same chance for something. I.e. We all roll the same 4d6 and all have the same opportunity for good stats or we all use 28 point buy. Fairness in outcome - everyone reaps the same benefits. I.e. everyone has a total stat bonus of +6. Wrong and the prior post explained it. Fairness of opporunity means that all players are given the same opportunity to succeed. Their success or failure is determined by themselves (and in sport by their skill). Fairness of outcome means that the results are set to some predetermined standard of 'equitability' regardless of player input. Random char-gen clearly falls in the later category. -Polaris
Polaris 02-23-07, 09:28 PM	Actualy my terminology might be off. It has been a while. But a Theory, if I remeber correct is pretty much a hypotheis that has been proven once or a number of time. But it isn't a law yet(again my science is a bit rusty) yet because it has to go though more intensive study. Completely false. A theory is nothing of the sort. The Law of Gravitation and the Law of Relativity are both theories. They are also scientific laws. A theory is a construct (usually mathematical) designed to explain a phenomena or set of phenomena. The term 'theory' when properly used says nothing about it being unproven. Only scientific illiterates misuse the term that way....and I'm sorry but your prior posts regarding statistical analysis reek of scientific illiteracy. So in the history of science thoeries have been proven wrong. I am prtetty sure that there are possibly competeing thoeries out there that explain the same things. Again If I am wrong I am not meaning any insult, but aren't there a number off science thoeries explaing evolution( and I am not talking about the religion thoeries). I mean Darwin Thoery and the one about a sudden change etc. I am not asking to disprute you I am asking to understand. You have more knowledge of this the I do I'll admitt. See above. Theories can be proven wrong with more evidence but that doesn't mean that just because it's a theory means it's uncertain or unproven (i.e. a scientific law). The word you want is hypothesis....but then your original argument against scientific analysis goes right out the airlock. Frankly (and sorry Mods I know I am treading on dangerous ground here), this misuse of the word "theory" is the sort of thing Flat-Earthers try to use to disprove the moon landing. -Polaris
Polaris 02-23-07, 09:30 PM	Sorry, just needed to be said, Mr Science teacher that should bloody well know that a Theory is a freaking guess until it's proven true to the point it becomes law. PB is a variant rule, that's why it's hidden away in the DMG rather than in the PHB, where all the other character creation methods are. Completely false. As I explained just prior to this, only scientific illiterates misuse the theory that way. Theory by no means indicates uncertainty at least when discussing scientific principles or analysis. It just doesn't. -Polaris
Polaris 02-23-07, 09:35 PM	If they base their industry standards on RPGA and 'large' cons then they are wrong. Because the majority of gamers aren't in the RGPA or go to cons. Also there is a lot of rules that the RGPA has with character creation that isn't going to be made a standard. Also the RGPA has always had point buy. Since atleast during 2nd edition. If it was setting 'standards' back then why didn't 3rd edition D&D have point buy as the main rule and not a optional rule? That isn't quite right. You are (willfully?) forgetting that pointbuy even in it's crudest form didn't enter into DnD until after Skills and Powers and the system was so wretched that few people liked it. Even so it entered the game in 2000 as an official varient and quickly has become the system of choice not just for RPGA but all DnD extended games and WOTC inspired CRPGs. That's a huge difference from just 10 years ago when Baldur's Gate used random char-gen exclusively. The point is that I am right and random char-gen systems are becoming less and less popular by industry standards (to the present day where they honestly are nearly exinct....at least for new RPGs). Furthermore, you are implying (and I think dishonestly) that all those that don't play in the larger games and larger cons are using random char-gen. That implicit claim is still wanting for proof....and individual experiences don't count. -Polaris
Polaris 02-23-07, 09:41 PM	Because the DM set it up and get a e-mail of all the rolls for his game and which each player got player got what. And again this isn't about your arguement about it being 'fair' it is about your arguement about it being time consuming. It is a service not just a random number generator. Web-Based dice rollers are not random and not reliable. Enough said. -Polaris
Olskool 02-23-07, 11:17 PM	You know you are soo old school I have the feeling you believe that of fire and the wheel. :D Fire and the wheel are the devil and should be shunned!
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 02:56 AM	Completely false. A theory is nothing of the sort. The Law of Gravitation and the Law of Relativity are both theories. They are also scientific laws. A theory is a construct (usually mathematical) designed to explain a phenomena or set of phenomena. The term 'theory' when properly used says nothing about it being unproven. Only scientific illiterates misuse the term that way....and I'm sorry but your prior posts regarding statistical analysis reek of scientific illiteracy. See above. Theories can be proven wrong with more evidence but that doesn't mean that just because it's a theory means it's uncertain or unproven (i.e. a scientific law). The word you want is hypothesis....but then your original argument against scientific analysis goes right out the airlock. Frankly (and sorry Mods I know I am treading on dangerous ground here), this misuse of the word "theory" is the sort of thing Flat-Earthers try to use to disprove the moon landing. -Polaris Yeah I was using Theory in the non scientfic way....sorry. But they are multi-thoeries explaing the same phenomena or set of phenomena right? Doesn't that mean that theories aren't that concrete? Also a thoery is mathmaticaly proven it doesn't become law till it is proven in reality right? Hence why Darwin's Theory of Evolution is just a thoery because we haven't seen it happen in nature. I am just asking to learn...I would appriecate if you didn't decide to insult me.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 03:09 AM	That isn't quite right. You are (willfully?) forgetting that pointbuy even in it's crudest form didn't enter into DnD until after Skills and Powers and the system was so wretched that few people liked it. Even so it entered the game in 2000 as an official varient and quickly has become the system of choice not just for RPGA but all DnD extended games and WOTC inspired CRPGs. That's a huge difference from just 10 years ago when Baldur's Gate used random char-gen exclusively. The point is that I am right and random char-gen systems are becoming less and less popular by industry standards (to the present day where they honestly are nearly exinct....at least for new RPGs). Furthermore, you are implying (and I think dishonestly) that all those that don't play in the larger games and larger cons are using random char-gen. That implicit claim is still wanting for proof....and individual experiences don't count. -Polaris So if it was a optional rule in Skills & Powers why wasn't it standard in 3 rd? or 3.5? There are reasons beyond the fact it is choosen this way...in CRPGs as you have point out computer generated stats aren't random so Point buy is better for this system. Also in my veiw CRPG are a misnomer and what is common in them shouldn't be construed as indication of industry standard. No you are not right as most systems are being released under the open liscense agreemewnt are in fact d20s games and are random stat gen. Also random char gen is also a misnomer as you have complete control of everything else it is only the stats that are created randomly. you have constantly implied that those who don't play in cons and in the RGPA use point buy. Also you implied that the people who go to these cons and play in the RPGA use point buy in their non-con games and non-RPGA games. Do you have proof of this? And your invidual experiences don't count.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 03:13 AM	Web-Based dice rollers are not random and not reliable. Enough said. -Polaris ....you points on why point buy is better then random stat are as follows... 1) It creates a unfair and unbalance system that leads to cheating. 2) It is time consuming The web site is there to counter the time consuming bit. Also it could be some guy rolling dice and typing them into a computer and e-mailing it to the DM and players. It might not be even electronicaly generated. And I never said it was.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 03:25 AM	Also do you use dice at all in the game? I mean if dice don't create a fair way of dealing with things why use dice for attack rolls, etc? I mean following your logic all the way. 1)Random rolls are unfair. 2)Random Results lead to cheating that are harder to police by the DM. Since every aspect of the game has to be equal we have to come up a non random way to set the results of actions. Wouldn't we if I am following your logic correctly?
Limousine_Liberal 02-24-07, 03:48 AM	If your Dm isn't letting you reroll your awesome scores, why not just play them as if they were lower. You don't swing your sword as hard as you could, getting only +2 to hit and damage rather than the full +4. You can't b bothers to jump and dodge out the way of hazards, so you get a +0 to your Reflex saves despite your 18 dex. What's the Dm going to do? *Make* you take the full bonuses? Practically speaking, he can forbid you from re-rolling, but he can't force you to actually use the full bonus during play.
Polaris 02-24-07, 07:05 AM	Yeah I was using Theory in the non scientfic way....sorry. But they are multi-thoeries explaing the same phenomena or set of phenomena right? Doesn't that mean that theories aren't that concrete? Define "concrete". To a philosopher, nothing in science is absolutely concrete because all science (including scientific laws) are falsifiable and subject to revision or even reversal with further information. Science is a field of fact and not truth. However, for all practical purposes there are enough scientific principles that are concrete enough for purposes of this discussion including the statistical principles I have already alluded to. Also a thoery is mathmaticaly proven it doesn't become law till it is proven in reality right? Hence why Darwin's Theory of Evolution is just a thoery because we haven't seen it happen in nature. Evolution is a scientific law according to Biologists and Bio-Chemists (and pretty much anyone in the Biological sciences). Given on a fundamental philosophic level nothing is absolutely "proven" (i.e. proven 'true' rather than just 'factual') that is an unreasonable definition and burden. That brings us back to why I unloaded on you. RMS testing to sniff out anamalous footprints is based on Statistical Principles of Mathematics that (scientifically anyway) have the force of a scientific law. -Polaris
Polaris 02-24-07, 07:13 AM	Also do you use dice at all in the game? I mean if dice don't create a fair way of dealing with things why use dice for attack rolls, etc? I mean following your logic all the way. 1)Random rolls are unfair. 2)Random Results lead to cheating that are harder to police by the DM. Since every aspect of the game has to be equal we have to come up a non random way to set the results of actions. Wouldn't we if I am following your logic correctly? False. You clearly don't understand stasticial principles. Random rolls for task resolution is fine and indeed to some extent necessary in order to include in our simulation the literally millions of factors that determine success or failure that can't be (or are unreasonably difficult) to predetermine. What's the differnce? Three words: Regression To Mean In any typical RPG campaign (or any game for that matter), you will face hundreds (if not thousands) of tasks (attack rolls are considered tasks for this purpose as are saving throws). That means that you will see an even distribution (based on the exact randomizing system) from low to high settling on a mean. [Note that this also very effectively sniffs out loaded dice.] The long and short of it, is that any one roll doesn't give any particular character an unreasonable advantage over the long run. That is totally untrue with the random character generation system. Here there isn't enough tasks to get a true regression to mean and any varience from the mean in the initial roll affects the effectiveness of the character (unfairly I might add) for the rest of the campaign including those hundreds of task resolutions. In short, random task resolution is desired. Affecting the fixed components of hundreds of task resolutions randomly emphatically is not. -Polaris
Polaris 02-24-07, 07:20 AM	So if it was a optional rule in Skills & Powers why wasn't it standard in 3 rd? or 3.5? There are reasons beyond the fact it is choosen this way...in CRPGs as you have point out computer generated stats aren't random so Point buy is better for this system. Also in my veiw CRPG are a misnomer and what is common in them shouldn't be construed as indication of industry standard. In 1998 less than 10 years ago, random char-gen in Baldur's Gate (WOTC's first DnD CRPG) was the norm. Now, it's not used. Coincidence? I think not. Also the Skills and Powers book was universally reviled. I don't know if you are old enough to remember that, but I am, and the "point buy" system was horrible to the point of being almost unusable. The modern Point Buy system is completely different in DnD and dates from 2000 and DnD 3E and for organized DnD (by which I mean Living campaigns, RPGA, Cons, CRPG products, etc) has completely overshadowed the random system. No you are not right as most systems are being released under the open liscense agreemewnt are in fact d20s games and are random stat gen. Also random char gen is also a misnomer as you have complete control of everything else it is only the stats that are created randomly. False. That was true in 2002 and even then most used the Point Buy system as the primary with random as a secondary (at the very least Spycraft certainly did as did Mid-Night). As of this year most new games that otherwise would be d20 are now OGL which removes the ties to the PHB and coincidentally the random char-gen method. you have constantly implied that those who don't play in cons and in the RGPA use point buy. Also you implied that the people who go to these cons and play in the RPGA use point buy in their non-con games and non-RPGA games. Do you have proof of this? And your invidual experiences don't count. Actually no I haven't. You have made the contrary claim implicitly and Oldskool as made it explicitly. A claim that is still found wanting for evidence I might add. I will say in my personal experience that I've been involved in (since 2000) 12 (that I remember) long term DnD groups/campaigns of which one used the random char-gen method (and it was 5d6 drop two). -Polaris
Olskool 02-24-07, 12:21 PM	I will say in my personal experience that I've been involved in (since 2000) 12 (that I remember) long term DnD groups/campaigns of which one used the random char-gen method (and it was 5d6 drop two). -Polaris Dude, if you been involved in 12 different groups in 6 years, PB vs. rolling is the least of your problems.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 01:06 PM	Define "concrete". To a philosopher, nothing in science is absolutely concrete because all science (including scientific laws) are falsifiable and subject to revision or even reversal with further information. Science is a field of fact and not truth. However, for all practical purposes there are enough scientific principles that are concrete enough for purposes of this discussion including the statistical principles I have already alluded to. Evolution is a scientific law according to Biologists and Bio-Chemists (and pretty much anyone in the Biological sciences). Given on a fundamental philosophic level nothing is absolutely "proven" (i.e. proven 'true' rather than just 'factual') that is an unreasonable definition and burden. That brings us back to why I unloaded on you. RMS testing to sniff out anamalous footprints is based on Statistical Principles of Mathematics that (scientifically anyway) have the force of a scientific law. -Polaris But a anamalous footprint isn't neccessary a sign of cheating correct? It happens correct? I mean I play with a guy who can't roll well ever. He is always rolling low(or high in systems that require you to roll low). He has used many dice over the period of time I have gamed with him. Even dice that other people have rolled well with...even casino dice. He has used so many dice that it can't be attributed to poor quality of dice(either or it would a another statistical anamaloly that he is always buying defective dice). Additionaly other people have used his dice and have rolled 'normaly' in regards to a correct spread to gain a mean. So he isn't cheating because he isn't gaining a benefit from it. How can this be explained by statistical principles of mathematics?
goblin_pride 02-24-07, 01:08 PM	Dude, if you been involved in 12 different groups in 6 years, PB vs. rolling is the least of your problems. Eh, science teacher. And I can tell that's true because he's already bored me to tears.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 01:24 PM	False. You clearly don't understand stasticial principles. Random rolls for task resolution is fine and indeed to some extent necessary in order to include in our simulation the literally millions of factors that determine success or failure that can't be (or are unreasonably difficult) to predetermine. What's the differnce? Three words: Regression To Mean In any typical RPG campaign (or any game for that matter), you will face hundreds (if not thousands) of tasks (attack rolls are considered tasks for this purpose as are saving throws). That means that you will see an even distribution (based on the exact randomizing system) from low to high settling on a mean. [Note that this also very effectively sniffs out loaded dice.] The long and short of it, is that any one roll doesn't give any particular character an unreasonable advantage over the long run. That is totally untrue with the random character generation system. Here there isn't enough tasks to get a true regression to mean and any varience from the mean in the initial roll affects the effectiveness of the character (unfairly I might add) for the rest of the campaign including those hundreds of task resolutions. In short, random task resolution is desired. Affecting the fixed components of hundreds of task resolutions randomly emphatically is not. -Polaris I'll have probable have rolled a d20 about easily over 100,000 times in my life(I have played in mult. games a week for about 20 years.). Before I die I will proably have rolled a d20 another 100,000 times. Since we are lokking at this at a complete perspective. I can roll really well during a campaign that is higher then the mean, because the next game I might roll well below it. Thus making the total of what I roll the actual mean. Now this is how how I look at stastical evidence. Sure it can probably is right in the end but on a invidual basis of a campaign. Also since I have created about alot of characters(including NPCs when I DM), Now if you take all my the stats I rolled you would probably get the mean. I just think using staticticals mathmatics to analzy something that is as limited as this is iffy. A even a campaign is too short of sample in my opinion. The teacher I took Stastics could have been completely wrong and should be locked out of the classroom, but that is the only knowledge I have and you haven't convince me that I am looking at this the wrong way.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 01:43 PM	In 1998 less than 10 years ago, random char-gen in Baldur's Gate (WOTC's first DnD CRPG) was the norm. Now, it's not used. Coincidence? I think not. Also the Skills and Powers book was universally reviled. I don't know if you are old enough to remember that, but I am, and the "point buy" system was horrible to the point of being almost unusable. The modern Point Buy system is completely different in DnD and dates from 2000 and DnD 3E and for organized DnD (by which I mean Living campaigns, RPGA, Cons, CRPG products, etc) has completely overshadowed the random system. False. That was true in 2002 and even then most used the Point Buy system as the primary with random as a secondary (at the very least Spycraft certainly did as did Mid-Night). As of this year most new games that otherwise would be d20 are now OGL which removes the ties to the PHB and coincidentally the random char-gen method. Actually no I haven't. You have made the contrary claim implicitly and Oldskool as made it explicitly. A claim that is still found wanting for evidence I might add. I will say in my personal experience that I've been involved in (since 2000) 12 (that I remember) long term DnD groups/campaigns of which one used the random char-gen method (and it was 5d6 drop two). -Polaris Again has you proven you can't have a true random generator with a computer. Since the technology is lacking they have to use a point buy system. This doesn't prove anything about industial standards. It is a limitation of computer. False? You gave two examples of systems that used point buy(and yet they stilled offered random as optional). Two would be hardly called a majority. Also Midnight and Spycraft merely offered both systems as options none has far as I can remember(though it has been aawhile) placed any signifiecent preference on either. Also I rember back to the days of basic D&D. And to be honest maybe Skill& Powers is why we have sooo many people resistant to the idea of Point Buy. I don't like point buy simply because it benefits single stat casters too much. Now it makes no difference but if some rolled good stats for a fighter, paladin, monk, rogue,etc they can stay closer to the caster in terms of power. Which make the game overall much more desirable. I don't think they will go with point buy because if they do they will have to nerf casters(which as recall Spycraft doesn't have and Midnight already does). Which they won't do. And that has been a industrial standards of a much longer time. Also this is how my groups roll stats. One as in the PHB but we roll three sets, which we have a choice to nuke and roll another three sets, which we can nuke and roll 1 more stat, then as a final options we can nuke that and the DM rolls it. This isn't cheating since there is nnothing in the rules that says you can't roll multiple sets and choose one. So generally it be roughly equal stats. Tell you what I embrace point Buy when they nerf casters.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 01:47 PM	Dude, if you been involved in 12 different groups in 6 years, PB vs. rolling is the least of your problems. You see that is just him(/or her) misrepresenting his experience. It might have been only 1 group of people and 12 different campaigns. We don't know. But since it supports his(or/ her) experience better he/she will never tell us.
Saytr 02-24-07, 02:01 PM	To the original poster: You'll probably never read this and may have decided already (I didn't read all 100+ posts), but... Bard! Bard! Bard! The reason is fairly simple: A Bard is a generalist. Not as good in battle as a Fighter. Not as good as a Sorcerer as a spellcaster. Not quite the skillmonkey that a Rogue is. With your awesome stats you CAN be as good as the Fighter, or the Wizard, or the Rogue or whomever. But you won't be BETTER. You'll just be as good at more things, or to look at it another way, you'll just be busier. You'll be filling whatever role is nessessary at the time, but not breaking that role. That should keep you at the same power level as your buddies, in a practical sense. Plus.. You're a Bard! So you make them better. Basically, yes, you will be better than the other PC's. It just won't really SEEM that way.
Zandolit 02-24-07, 02:17 PM	Dude, if you been involved in 12 different groups in 6 years, PB vs. rolling is the least of your problems. How so? Even assuming no two campaigns took place at the same time, that's an average campaign length of six months, which isn't that short. Some people like to move on to something different after a few months rather than playing a single campaign that lasts for years. Also, there's no reason to assume the campaigns didn't overlap. I'm currently in two campaigns with different groups, and I would think that's pretty common. A different campaign doesn't necessarily mean a different group, either. Plus groups shift around anyway, and people come and go. It happens. I don't know the particulars of the situation described, but it's not at all unreasonable. I see no reason to assume there's a problem.
Elemental_Elf 02-24-07, 02:51 PM	I rolled a level 1 fighter with 18, 18, 18, 17, 17 and 16 and the other pcs doesn't have a single stat above 16 ranging from 8-15 on most stats. I want to reroll because I don't want to steal the show from everyone else (that and I tend to die if I roll my stats high), however the DM said he can't let me reroll because then she would have to let everyone reroll their dice. Why not play a Venerable Age Fighter?
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 05:24 PM	How so? Even assuming no two campaigns took place at the same time, that's an average campaign length of six months, which isn't that short. Some people like to move on to something different after a few months rather than playing a single campaign that lasts for years. Also, there's no reason to assume the campaigns didn't overlap. I'm currently in two campaigns with different groups, and I would think that's pretty common. A different campaign doesn't necessarily mean a different group, either. Plus groups shift around anyway, and people come and go. It happens. I don't know the particulars of the situation described, but it's not at all unreasonable. I see no reason to assume there's a problem. Actualy to old school player 6 months is very short. I personaly think a campaign that doesn't last three years is dumb....the just me though. Though I do play in different campaigns so I get to try out alot of my concepts....so...
Polaris 02-24-07, 06:15 PM	You see that is just him(/or her) misrepresenting his experience. It might have been only 1 group of people and 12 different campaigns. We don't know. But since it supports his(or/ her) experience better he/she will never tell us. Actually I am happy to tell you. I live in Austin Texas where the gamers tend to be either associated with UT (at some level) or high tech professionals or both. I have been with one group for literally more than a decade, but the turnover in groups because of changing people is actually quite high....and I did say it was just my experience. [And yes, I typically try to game with two or more groups simultaneously.] -Polaris
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 07:04 PM	Actually I am happy to tell you. I live in Austin Texas where the gamers tend to be either associated with UT (at some level) or high tech professionals or both. I have been with one group for literally more than a decade, but the turnover in groups because of changing people is actually quite high....and I did say it was just my experience. [And yes, I typically try to game with two or more groups simultaneously.] -Polaris ok by high turn over in players do you mean DMs as well? Also would like to apologize if my comments seemed a little snippy. You did answear it.
Polaris 02-24-07, 07:28 PM	ok by high turn over in players do you mean DMs as well? Also would like to apologize if my comments seemed a little snippy. You did answear it. I meant turnover of gamers in general, i.e. both players and DMs. -Polaris
Zandolit 02-24-07, 08:30 PM	Actualy to old school player 6 months is very short. I personaly think a campaign that doesn't last three years is dumb....the just me though. Though I do play in different campaigns so I get to try out alot of my concepts....so... I actually prefer a longer campaign too, but I've found very few other people who stay interested that long, so I tend to end up in shorter ones by default. A six month campaign would not be my preference-- I'd rather go longer-- but a lot of people seem to disagree. All I'm saying is a six month campaign is not unreasonable or (at least in my experience) particularly unusual. But the poster clarified, so the point is rather moot anyway. :)
johnkretzer 02-25-07, 03:27 AM	I meant turnover of gamers in general, i.e. both players and DMs. -Polaris I am just asking because ultiminately to me atleast I would put up with point buy if the DM was good(well as long as it isn't extremely low). Like I said I have neve placed or seen a reason to place as a high value of the stats as some people do... So if you always had the same DM that really doesn't matter as player might like random but...because you'll always have point buy.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-26-07, 07:50 AM	Sorry to bring this up again but I can't post on weekends. :D The analogy in one of my college textbooks for the difference for fairness of opportunity and fairness of out come is as follows: Fairness of opportunity means that everyone gets to start the race, fairness of outcome guarantees that they finish it at the same time. I don't see how I am mistconstruing that and if you tell me that the text is wrong I want to see the college textbook that YOU have written explaining otherwise.
Zumarai 02-26-07, 08:04 AM	Fairness of opportunity means that everyone gets to start the race, fairness of outcome guarantees that they finish it at the same time. But in a race both runners begin with the same chance. With rolling, once the players have rolled their score they don't begin with the same chance …See the difference?
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-26-07, 08:43 AM	But in a race both runners begin with the same chance. With rolling, once the players have rolled their score they don't begin with the same chance …See the difference? No I don't. They both begin by rolling the same method. That is point I have. Heck, to cut down on inequality use the same dice.
Zumarai 02-26-07, 08:53 AM	No I don't. They both begin by rolling the same method. That is point I have. Heck, to cut down on in equality use the same dice. I think the problem here is a lot of people have different views as to when the game actually "begins". Building the characters to me is just part of "Set-Up".
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-26-07, 08:59 AM	I think the problem here is a lot of people have different views as to when the game actually "begins". Building the characters to me is just part of "Set-Up". Ah, to me that is the begining. So yes, I see what you are saying and in that respect I can see where all this difficulty lies.
Zumarai 02-26-07, 09:02 AM	Ah, to me that is the begining. So yes, I see what you are saying and in that respect I can see where all this difficulty lies. Yes, finally! See, Pyke; I knew we could make it if we really try. But we must try, try and try – we'll succeed at last.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-26-07, 09:18 AM	:dancin: huzzah!