Post/Author/DateTime	Post
porygandrew 02-02-06, 11:32 AM	Earlier last fall we all started a new campaign. Halfway through it, the DM just gave up and threw it onto someone else (the new DM admitted last night that it was thrust upon him). The old DM is a time-tested favorite of mine because he knows how to make balanced encounters and I know I'm usually safe up against anything he throws at the party. That doesn't ring true for this new DM. He DM'd in the past with not-so-great results. Not too bad, but not really good, either. I have no idea what I'm doing with my character. Usually I have an idea with what I want to do, but my last character and this one, someone else in our group made almost an exact (to a point) replica of my character: race and class and all. Not to say my character's suicidal, but I've just stopped caring about, well, everything; including the well-being of this character. Now here comes the dilemma: Our new DM is constantly asking me after/before game if I want my character to die. If so, he can arrange it. Shocked and aghast, I vehemently objected. He's the DM. If he says "Rocks fall from the sky, everybody dies," then so be it. Where's the fun in that? Well last night a couple of us were talking about gaming with him and he spouted his philosophy that he sends us against things that are trying to kill us and that "Once in a while somebody's going to die." WTF? I Co-DMed once before and our philosophy was to make challenging encounters but set it up so that the characters almost always win and try to make sure that a character doesn't die (in fact, we kind of stretched the rule with a 20 damage hit against a character with 5 hit points left). Because, as I stated before, if we wanted a character to die, we would just point to the player and say, "You're dead. No save." Because of this, I am very uncomfortable with him DMing, but at this point there really isn't anyone to take over. He said that he would gladly pass on the reigns to anyone else, but our first DM is kind of AWOL as of late (and unwilling to take over otherwise). The discussion about the philosophy of our new DM isn't anything new. He's told me everything I stated above several occasions when he DMed in the past. He's even blatantly told me that he set up unwinnable encounters for us (to the point where we ended a campaign losing against a high-powered sorcerer behind sheilds, golems, and summoned creatures). I told him that "Make an intelligence check," isn't a bad thing for us so we know what to do, but he said that he always tells us what to do (whereas I don't remember him saying, "Do This! Go there!" all in the sake of making his job a little easier [we encourage that if we unknowingly get off course]). Right now I'm to the point of pulling a Pun-Pun on him if he blatantly kills my character (For a guy who's unhealthily obsessed with DnD, he sure doesn't have a clue what goes on). I don't want to give up my character, I don't want him to DM, but I don't want to take over myself and I want to continue playing because I like the group. I just can't stand his philosophy that the DM is supposed to [try to] kill the Players and I can't stop sitting on pins and needles whenever he pits us against encounters. We are currently on a city-sized boat of black dragon worshippers and half-feinds. We have safe passage, but he told me that we are basically screwed if a fight breaks out. He then reprimands me for going along with the pirates when they destroyed a city [hello? Self-preservation much?] So I cast out this message in a bottle to all of you and say: "Help! My DM is trying to kill me!" Edit: I found an article I had in mind while writing this: Though DMs roleplay the adversaries of the PCs, running a game is not an adversarial activity. The Dungeon Master's goal is not to "win" any more than the players' goal is to "win" -- the goal of both is to create a mutually enjoyable experience. --"The Foundation of a Good Game," By Jason Nelson
The_Ditto 02-02-06, 11:46 AM	Only got one question: "If there is no risk of death or failure, then where is the sense of excitement and danger?" PC: "I'll open the door." DM: "But it's trapped, the rogue already pointed that out, and your divinations have told you that it's a potentially lethal trap." PC: "That's ok, I don't want my character to die, and you won't kill him because of it .. I open the door." DM: :uh-huh: Seriously ... I'm not sure the DM has 100% of the "blame" on this one ...
Mit Ratten Lebt 02-02-06, 12:10 PM	I regularly kill my players. They are better players because of it. I would say I average two deaths per 14 hour session. Average, which means sometimes more and sometimes none.
Nairb45335 02-02-06, 12:17 PM	Not that it will help but some DMs like having some lvl inappropiate encounters just so that there is some danger from thinking I am invincible. I guess you can start asking to make lots of knowledge checks, in an attempt to guess encounter lvls. Then decide if you want to risk a combat. Also if you are not playing in a low magic world where rez is not available, death is a inconvience. Nairb45335
Thelandrach 02-02-06, 12:30 PM	I've always felt that the job of the GM is to tell a story, and the players get to help. In popular fiction (tv, books and movies), the good guys almost always win. They also very rarely die. Occasionally you'll see a death or two along the way, but most of the main characters will usually live to see the end of the story. That you believe your character will survive to see the end of a well-run campaign does not mean that you should play your character as having that foreknowledge; that's just bad writing.
Lyinginbedmon 02-02-06, 12:39 PM	Dying is a very big part of the game (Or at least it was before Thought Bottle...), it's meant to happen. No character is meant to go through their entire career without getting at least one nasty scar or actually dying. Besides, if you didn't get into trouble, what would you tell the barmaids and the minstrels! The adventurers who stay at home and make bread for a living are only going to be liked as much if they slip something special in the batter, adventurers just have to go out and explore, what could be better!
wolfram_stout 02-02-06, 12:50 PM	Now here comes the dilemma: Our new DM is constantly asking me after/before game if I want my character to die. If so, he can arrange it. Shocked and aghast, I vehemently objected. He's the DM. If he says "Rocks fall from the sky, everybody dies," then so be it. Where's the fun in that? Well last night a couple of us were talking about gaming with him and he spouted his philosophy that he sends us against things that are trying to kill us and that "Once in a while somebody's going to die." So I cast out this message in a bottle to all of you and say: "Help! My DM is trying to kill me!" Edit: I found an article I had in mind while writing this: --"The Foundation of a Good Game," By Jason Nelson It is a fine point to be made but the "things" should be trying to kill you to the best of their ability. The DM should not. You are right, the DM can kill you at any time. The DM should be putting you up against reasonable CR/EL and then running them to the best of their ability. Now, if he truely meant that he is trying to kill the characters and will run encounters that are too high a threat level then, yeah that is not much fun. Wolfram
Doopliss 02-02-06, 01:17 PM	It seems to me he's set up a sort of trigger. At any point he wants a fight can break out, and you can die. It's natural to feel more justified doing this than 'rocks fall, everyone dies', but it really isn't. As for your problem, I think you have two options. One is to do everything in your power to deny the DM. Don't take unnecesary risks, and possibly outright ignore plot hooks. Since out of game conversation has failed, this is your only real hope of having him get the picture. The second idea, is IMO, much better. Quite simply, get him out from behind the sheet. It may seem mean, but it seems he doesn't really want to DM in the first place. Discuss with the other players if there's anyone who wants to take up the DM mantle. Your current DM would likely be all too happy to step down.
Mit Ratten Lebt 02-02-06, 01:24 PM	Keep in mind that a DM running mobs 'to the best of their ability' should keep in mind relative combat prowess of the mobs. (mob = bad guy btw) Thus, a 3rd level combatant might reasonably provoke an attack of opportunity for walking past a fighter when a more seasoned player (like the DM running him) may have realized it wasn't necessary. When I DM, I get progressively better at battle and battle tactics as the players level up. I play sloppy at lower levels on purpose. By the time I get to about level 12 or so, you better be on your game because I *WILL* kill you if it is out there. Another thing I do at that level that players really don't like is finish players off. If I drop you to -1 HP and I have an attack left, I use it on your prone, movement-less, basically helpless dying body. If you have any questions, read my sig.
Tyrasius 02-02-06, 06:39 PM	The DM should be trying to kill you but not trying to kill you. Specifacally when he has the chance to kill you such as when your in a battle and something big and nasty knocks your head off he should do it. This is so that you will actually fear and have something to stop you from charging into battle against the Tarrasque at lvl 1. However he should not be trying to kill you. Specifacilly he shouldn't when you are at lvl 1 send the Tarrasque at you. This is not to say he can't have in place deadly creatures that you will need to run from. These are part of the game and generate some humility for your character since they know there is always aomething bigger and badder then them. This is just my opinion however and anyone else is free to do/DM whatever/however they want.
porygandrew 02-02-06, 06:42 PM	Adventuring and such is just fine. We have a rogue or two who can take care of traps and everything, and I know full well that it's possible to die because of those traps. My character's not invincible, I know that. There's a chance of dying from regular combat, and we al face and accept that.(Traps = okay. Being dropped in the middle of Mordor where a sneaktheif pilfered your trusty weapon = not okay.) What I have a problem with is that we are constantly put into a situation where - I feel - we can't really do much about the situation. I'm going to take "the coward's way out" and just run from any encounters I think are too powerful (Bypassing doesn't mean failure, *nod*). It's just that the former DM is a better DM than a player and our current one is a better player than a DM. I don't think I'm the only to think this either as a couple of games ago found us surrounded by wolves and our ranger was attacked the most. The DM used a custom army-template from our former DM which he interpreted as "at least one automatic, successful attack per round." Needless to say our ranger was facing about 40 points of damage in the first 2 rounds, getting royally kicked. The DM scoffed at the ranger's decision to flee. Later on the ranger and another one of our members looked at the rules (Well, actually they were still continuing from the start of the battle) and said that it was misinterpreted and he was wrong. DM then pulled the rule-0 on us. Every time I go, I just become paranoid that he's set up something special to bump off my character and I don't want him to purposefully kill my character. I've had no trouble dying in the past by myself, so why shouldn't I just find a way to die by myself? Again, we're currently surrounded by a city filled with enemies whom we've only gotten safe passage BECAUSE 'we' teamed up with the enemy in the past (read: one party member saved his butt by joining the evil group, assassinating a few head-honchos, and covering it up successfully. Now he's been missing for the past few weeks [IRL, he hasn't been to a game in about a month or so] and we're stuck in this situation 'partly' because of him). If I had a deathwish, I'd just jump into the black-dragon holding tank. But where's the fun in that?
Cold Napalm 02-02-06, 10:30 PM	I don't think an intelligent creature would finish dying creatures off if there is other threats in range. You fall and your the only one I can reach...yeah you die. You fall and I have 3 more of you surrounding me...you bet I'm gonna work on making the next one fall, not finishing you off. In fact I might use your dying helpless body as a bait...hehe. As for killer DMs...if you plays mobs to their peak ability and you die, you die. If he sends you up against impossible odds and make you fight it because you can't run or talk or anything else...walk out.
b3jsd73jfx 02-03-06, 03:11 AM	What I have a problem with is that we are constantly put into a situation where - I feel - we can't really do much about the situation Honestly, these are the situations I enjoy the most. Find a way to outsmart your DM. Sure he can point at you and say you're dead, but he obviously doesn't want to do this. He wants to try and justify it. I'm not sure of what kind of character you have, but if you're on the water, why not jump overboard? We're in a more water-based campaign right now (the place is kind of like earth, mostly water with landmasses in it) and our DM is quite good about making us think if we want to attack or not. An example would be: Since you're on a "pirate" ship, they're more than likely going to attack another ship once one comes up. What you do is simply convince you and your party to switch ships. Try to do it stealthy so you go unnoticed, or even invis if it helps.
porygandrew 02-05-06, 12:14 PM	Well, to anyone who's wondering, we played last Thursday night. I was gang-grappled by humanoids, tied up, and sodomized with my own rod of wonder by a fiendish cleric. As I tried to **ahem** eject the foreign object (>.<) I turned myself into stone. It was either keep a reincarnate roll I jokingly made earlier, or turn back into the purple human I was before (R.o.W.). I kept my DM's choice reincarnate roll, him saying, "Take whatever you want, but it must be from the core books," So I took Aasimar. After being sodomized twice with my character's own R.o.W., a +2 CHA & WIS and access to a daylight spell seems awfully good to me.
bassist33333 02-05-06, 05:11 PM	Well, as I believe someone else stated above, if there's no danger, what's the excitement of the game? If you have no fear, then why would you play? If you see a big Great Wyrm Gold dragon, and you're a level 1 bard, then you ought to know that going up to it and sticking your tongue out probably ain't a good plan. I find it effective as a DM to end up even killing players, but then at the last moment, someone who can cast true ressurection comes to the rescue. So, the point is, it's okay if you are close to death, or if you are don't ALWAYS come out in the best of situations. That's what keeps the game alive. Playing with some DM's I'm like: "Dang...I better not venture into that cave if there's a dragon in there. It's gonna kill me!" Then others it's more like: "Hmm...a dragon? Why would he put that there. I'm going to walk in, it's probably a just level 5 gnome bard casting an illusion." The latter description I find just to be boring and uneventful
Cifer 02-05-06, 06:08 PM	First thing: If your DM tries to kill the players, call the police. Now that we have laughed a lot, let's get serious: It's basically the same problem as most others. You have another opinion about what your game should be like than your DM. That leaves you with four options: 1) Talk it out of him. Tell him that you are not having fun with his DM style. Ask him why he prefers his style. Tell him how you would like the game to be. Ask him why he doesn't like your idea. 2) DM yourself. Saying "he can't DM" is fine, but should be accompanied with "I'll show him that my way of DMing is fun too." 3) Ask someone else to DM. same as above. 4) Leave the group. What you probably shouldn't do is Pun-Pun him. Pun-Punning serves no purpose, since Pun-Pun is only immortal if you don't take your DM's whims into account. If he says "Rocks fall. Everyone dies" he most probably does not mean "Rocks fall. Everyone dies except for those who powergame well enough that they can make a reflex save DC 200". Pun-Punning (or any other kind of creating broken characters) basically just means that the DM will wind up with tougher obstacles, which you can overcome with more "genious" builds and so on. Don't you think you will both acquire a certain grudge against each other while doing so? Certainly not the idea of the game...
Steel91101 02-06-06, 04:03 AM	I have no idea what I'm doing with my character. Usually I have an idea with what I want to do, but my last character and this one, someone else in our group made almost an exact (to a point) replica of my character: race and class and all. Not to say my character's suicidal, but I've just stopped caring about, well, everything; including the well-being of this character. Now here comes the dilemma: Our new DM is constantly asking me after/before game if I want my character to die. If so, he can arrange it. Shocked and aghast, I vehemently objected. He's the DM. If he says "Rocks fall from the sky, everybody dies," then so be it. Where's the fun in that? Well last night a couple of us were talking about gaming with him and he spouted his philosophy that he sends us against things that are trying to kill us and that "Once in a while somebody's going to die." Maybe he is asking if you want your character to die because he senses that you have stopped caring "about everything, including the well being of this character." But I have to agree with the others who have posted -- if there is no danger of dying, there's no point in playing. How would you like to play chess knowing you could never, ever lose no matter what you did?
FriendoftheDork 02-06-06, 08:36 AM	The DM's job is not to kill the PCs, but to make the players believe they are in danger of losing their characters. Therefore some characters has to die sometimes, or no player will be afraid of any encounter ever. The most exiting fights I've DMed are the ones where my players genuinly belive that they could all die, yet triumphs despite it. Last fight my PCs had for example was against a cleric 3/sorc 1. He had the Death domain and if he touched a PC and rolled equal to or higher than a PCs current HPs on 3d6 the PC would automatically die! (they were all 1st level) After a long and hard fight the cleric missed a PC on a death touch, and was in turn death touched by a PC cleric of death... if that last touch had missed the cleric would surely have hit a PC and killed him outright.... needless to say the exitement was high. Another thing the players should learn quickly is that not every creature is designed for the PCs to kill without much risk, some are really unwinnable. The DMG itself suggest that about 1-2% of all encounters should be Overpowered, that is 5 or higher EL than the party level. That's like the party facing a Troll on 1st level. In fact such an encounter is not competely unwinnable - but it requires perfect planning on behalf of the players, and a bit of luck. Or simply having the players evade the encounter altogether.
beat_takeshi 02-06-06, 10:05 AM	I feel your pain ;) It's not just the risk of dying it's the fact that its so rare to face an encounter where you have any chance of winning, you've basically become a spectator. I had a dm like that I found the best thing to do was take a samurai attitude. Dictate the story a bit. Live for a cause and feel free to lose a character, or even commit suicide to make your point. As long as the cause is moving forward individual characters don't matter so much. Force the dm into a reactive role whereby you advance your plans and he manages the obstacles and opposition. If he doesn't really like dm'ing then he might prefer a less involved role.
getgoldcardsoul 02-06-06, 06:30 PM	The most exiting fights I've DMed are the ones where my players genuinly belive that they could all die, yet triumphs despite it.Thank you!!! :D I prefer to be challenged with some sense of dread, not presented with dread and no hope. The fun comes from the triumph of defeating the dread and the sense of accomplishment. ...I find no fun in the burn-out one feels when the character they've worked on for 6+ months gets knocked out by sleeping gas without any chance of escape and subsequently beheaded in my unconsciousness in the middle of a dark castle full of people pretending that they're in a place of friendly refuge. Of course, to me, it was obvious the castle was evil (blight centered around it; empty town bereft of all life we just passed and we were on a small island!) Of course, the rest of the party wants to explore it. Can't blame them, of course. In this situation, one thinks, "Hey! Finally, some adventure after spending a month of sessions hunting fuana to make enough money to buy a set of decent armor!" But no. Just arbitrary death. Thanks, first GM!