Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ImagoKid 05-18-05, 06:34 AM	Hey there! I'm having some serious trouble in the campaign I'm currently playing in. My DM is just new to the whole DMing thing, but he still wants to try. However, he hardly knows any of the rules, nor is he good at designing adventures or encounters. We're playing a FR campaign, and during our first session we decided to go to Evereska (an Elven city, for those who don't know). Now, we've just had our fourth session and we only just got there. We started in the Dalelands, only a few weeks ride from the Elven city, so it certainly shouldn't take that long for us to reach it. However, the DM thinks that every session, we have to do a "quest." By this, he means that every session we have to help some misfortunate commoner carry out some task that they should do themselves, and if we don't agree, then we can't progress forward. It getting very frustrating! Also, He puts us up against enemies that are too tough! And I mean, 10 levels above us! Aaaaaarrgghh! And not only all of that, he's hopeless at DMing in the sense of describing things to the players. He doesn't describe NPC/monster actions, he doesn't describe places, nor does he describe what we hear or see. Well, my question is, what should I do? Please help! I'm lost - I don't know how I can continue playing without dying!!! Any suggestions of how I should deal with this would be appreciated. Thanks, IamgoKid
babysamurai 05-18-05, 06:45 AM	Takeover as DM.
Torack 05-18-05, 06:47 AM	Have him buy the PHB, DMG and MM1, the tell him to read those books(especially the first two) cover to cover. Alternatively, you could offer to DM the campaign. From where I'm looking at this, the campaign story seems to be okay and guiding a party to Everaska on a day to day basis isn't all that bad. The you-do-x-or-else-you-don't-pass-go-rule is something every starting DM bumps into. Point him towards the free adventures on this site and have him read those to get rid of the railroading. They usually offer a good insight on how to setup and run an adventure. Other then that: Good luck!
ImagoKid 05-18-05, 06:53 AM	About taking over as DM... Err... yeah, I already asked (very politely) if he would mind me doing that. He said he didn't want me to. An ego thing, I soppose. And I can't have him voted off, because all of the other players are on his side. They are all quite stupid and simply can't understand a good game anyhow. And they really aren't good players either, only me! But they love it so they play it, and I've got no-one else to play the game with. And he has all of the books, but he doesn't read them! And, as much as I encurage him to, he wont! Another problem is, we only play twice a month, so our game has made very little progress.
Earndur 05-18-05, 07:26 AM	If your DM is having difficulty describing the action then ask. On your initiative then ask all the questions that give you the details you crave. Ask about the environment - lighting, cover, ground obstructions, elevation ... etc. Ask about the creature(s) - appearance, equipment, formation, smell, sound ... etc. Keep asking questions. Every encounter. Every time. Even if it means loosing a round of action. Your DM should begin to anticipate your questions and he might just start giving this information at the start of the combat. Your DM is learning. Its a steep learning curve. Be patient. Play along with his game. Try not to get frustrated. Try to have fun. Give advise outside of the game. Talk with other players about ways to improve the game.
ImagoKid 05-18-05, 07:38 AM	Thanks Earndur for the advice. I will try to be patient with him... One thing. Even when I do ask, he says stuff like "It's an orc! What more is there to know?" and the other players say "Don't be a smartarse!"
Earndur 05-18-05, 07:48 AM	Ouch. It sounds like its more then just your DM that sucks. In some ways they are right, but I'd counter that a orc priest is going to look as different from an orc fighter as from a orc wizard that an elf, human or gnome would. I'd ask about holy symbols, clan symbols on shields, wands stuck in belts, uncommon weapons. Obviously, if they are all just a bunch of orc warriors thrown together for a random encounter with nothing to distiguish one from the next then that can be given as a description without the subsequent abuse from your DM or players ... and you can state it that way. I am sorry. It sounds like you have rough road ahead. It is possible to find a new group of "friends" to play with?
Nordman 05-18-05, 09:44 AM	What idiot DM, Almost like mine. Even if I complain that he brings on things only to kill us or "make his day" The others tells me to shut up and such. But you proably have a worse DM, min have 7 years of DM diffrent games, but surely he doesnt care what we think.
Phrennzy 05-18-05, 09:44 AM	My DM sucks!...And I can't have him voted off, because all of the other players are on his side. They are all quite stupid and simply can't understand a good game anyhow. And they really aren't good players either, only me! Find another group. It sounds as if you are odd man out. If all of the other players are happy with the DM and the game, you need to leave. Chances are, YOU are bringing the game down for THEM.
Draco Strang 05-18-05, 10:17 AM	I'm having some serious trouble in the campaign I'm currently playing in. My DM is just new to the whole DMing thing, but he still wants to try. However, he hardly knows any of the rules, nor is he good at designing adventures or encounters. Also, He puts us up against enemies that are too tough! And I mean, 10 levels above us! Aaaaaarrgghh! And not only all of that, he's hopeless at DMing in the sense of describing things to the players. He doesn't describe NPC/monster actions, he doesn't describe places, nor does he describe what we hear or see. These three signs all point to your dissatisfaction. If you're dissatisfied, then get out of the group. It seems that your DM doesn't know what he's doing, doesn't want to change, and the other players don't really care. Find a new group of like-minded individuals. Or build a new group. What is it about this game that attracts so many boobs? And by that I mean people acting like boobs. Because the other way it could be taken is most certainly not true.
babysamurai 05-18-05, 10:32 AM	These three signs all point to your dissatisfaction. If you're dissatisfied, then get out of the group. It seems that your DM doesn't know what he's doing, doesn't want to change, and the other players don't really care. Find a new group of like-minded individuals. Or build a new group. What is it about this game that attracts so many boobs? And by that I mean people acting like boobs. Because the other way it could be taken is most certainly not true. Yes, but woudn't it be wonderful if it was the other way.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-18-05, 01:32 PM	I'm having some serious trouble in the campaign I'm currently playing in. My DM is just new to the whole DMing thing, but he still wants to try. However, he hardly knows any of the rules, nor is he good at designing adventures or encounters. This would be becuase your DM is new to DMing and does not have the experience nessarry to do better. He will do better over time, but it is a slow process with a sharp learning curve. Takeover as DM. True this may help the situation, assuming two things: 1) Imagokid is better at DMing then his current DM 2) The other players want Imagokid to DM In this situation the players seem happy with the way things are going, and most likely would resist such a change. Also it appears that imago and his group have different styles of play. If he were to DM for his group then things would most likely get worse. Also in this case the DM is new. How can anyone except him to get better or to learn the art when he can't practise it. I don't understand how players can demand that their DM be top notch yet refuse to allow a DM some of the mistakes that characterise new DMs. Seriouse how is anyone sappose to become a better DM without gaining DMing experience and making noobie mistakes. I've been DMing for a few years now, and i still suck. Have patience your DM will improve, just not over night. Have him buy the PHB, DMG and MM1, the tell him to read those books(especially the first two) cover to cover Have you done this? And if you have then you seriousely need to get a life. There is more to DMing then knowing the RAW. Yes that is a big part of it, but that will also come with practise, and experience. The books are there to act as references, when there is a question look it up. Further more the DMG itself states on page 4 that it is not a novel and not ment to be read cover to cover. Find another group. It sounds as if you are odd man out. If all of the other players are happy with the DM and the game, you need to leave. Chances are, YOU are bringing the game down for THEM. This is wise advise from a wise gamer i would strongly sujest that you give it good consideration.
VirgilCaine 05-18-05, 01:38 PM	Have you done this? And if you have then you seriousely need to get a life. There is more to DMing then knowing the RAW. Yes that is a big part of it, but that will also come with practise, and experience. The books are there to act as references, when there is a question look it up. Further more the DMG itself states on page 4 that it is not a novel and not ment to be read cover to cover. No, it should be read cover to cover. The DMG does not contain the RAW that is needed every game, the PHB does. The DMG contains vital advice and knowledge needed for a decent game to be run. Avoiding railroading, Monty Haulism, and attempting verisimilitude are in the DMG. This is the "more" to DMing. If more DMs read the DMG cover to cover instead of skipping from the PrCs to the magic items there would be fewer threads on this board.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-18-05, 01:55 PM	No, it should be read cover to cover. The DMG does not contain the RAW that is needed every game, the PHB does. The DMG contains vital advice and knowledge needed for a decent game to be run. Avoiding railroading, Monty Haulism, and attempting verisimilitude are in the DMG. This is the "more" to DMing. If more DMs read the DMG cover to cover instead of skipping from the PrCs to the magic items there would be fewer threads on this board. No one expects you to read this book cver to cover. It's not a novel. Instead, we arranged this book into topics that you can refer to when you need them. Plus, an extended glossary at the back of the book provides quick reference to DM-related topics. I'd bold the important line, but I don't think it will be necessary. Here's what I don't understand: how come everyone who advocates reading and adhering to the DMG as though it were some sort of bible misses that part? It is on page 4 under the "How to Use this Book" heading. Anyone who says that you must read the DMG cover to cover and does not know how the book was intended to be used, has obviously not read the book themselves, and is there for a hypocrite.
VirgilCaine 05-18-05, 02:27 PM	I'd bold the important line, but I don't think it will be nessary. Heres what I don't understand. How come everyone who advocates reading and adherring to the DMG as though it were some sort of bibble misses that part. It is on page 4 under the "How to use this book" heading. Anyone who says that you must read the DMG cover to cover does not know how the book was intented to be used, has obvisouely not read the book themselves, and is there for a hipocrit. No, I don't think the DMG is a "bibble", nor am I a "hipocrit". I never said must, I said should be. And technically, I never said from cover to cover in one sitting, but at any rate, the entirety of the book should be read, especially the earlier chapters on running the game and designing adventures.
Kaihne 05-18-05, 02:38 PM	hm... I read the DMG from cover to cover and have been DMing for 13 years now and I still suck. Mainly because either I'm a stickler for details or I disregard them completely. I'm not just that good of a storyteller, but even I can make encounters worth the players time. I always ended gaming sessions a little early to have feedback from my players, that helped me greatly improve my DMing. But this process starts anew with each new group, as different players place different values. My advice to you is scrap these people and try to build up a group you can get along with ;)
Lord of the Underdark 05-18-05, 02:41 PM	I use 3.0...pg 4 is the table of contents...and actually I have yet to see it mention "not reading it cover to cover"...Neither does the AD&D 2nd Edition DMG, or any of the books that I own. (D&D======>D&D 3rd Ed.) And I'm going to have to agree that, when you are the DM, you should know the rules even if it means reading the books cover to cover. If you don't have the attention span, or mental capacity to sit and read the books....drop the book, or let go of the mouse and go turn on your PS2 and play an RPG there...It's all brainless and predigested for you on that platform. :rolleyes:
VirgilCaine 05-18-05, 03:03 PM	And I'm going to have to agree that, when you are the DM, you should know the rules even if it means reading the books cover to cover. If you don't have the attention span, or mental capacity to sit and read the books....drop the book, or let go of the mouse and go turn on your PS2 and play an RPG there...It's all brainless and predigested for you on that platform. :rolleyes: The problem isn't the rules, it's the guidelines and advice about running a good game and making a good adventure that are the problem for DMs not reading them.
deltadave 05-18-05, 03:11 PM	To get back on topic - I recommend that you speak to the DM in private, tell him what you think and see if he's open to some _constructive_ criticism. If not then your best bet is to try and find a different group or start running a side game of your own. If so, then give a few good things that you like and then a couple of things that he could improve on. Don't pile everything on at once or it will just sound like you are just complaining. The important final step is to suggest specific ways to improve that address the difficulties you are having. As far as facing opponents that are far beyond your capabilities, know when to run away. There is no shame in knowing when you are simply outmatched. For description, remind him that he is the window into the game world. Without his description everyone is blind.
UltimateReality 05-18-05, 03:30 PM	I use 3.0...pg 4 is the table of contents...and actually I have yet to see it mention "not reading it cover to cover"...Neither does the AD&D 2nd Edition DMG, or any of the books that I own. (D&D======>D&D 3rd Ed.)If you read the quote, you'll notice it comes from the DMG 3.5, which I have right in front of me. The table of contents is page 3, and page four is the Introduction, which includes the sections "The Dungeon Master", "How To Use This Book", and "Final Notes". I personally don't know if it's in any previous DMGs; however I play 3.5 and it's in that one. This whole argument is semantics anyway. No one is saying you should sit down and read the whole thing cover to cover in one session. But you should have at least a basic grasp of the rules before you make an adventure, and having an idea of where to find other things helps too. This is the point where I differ from TPK -- I think it's valuable to at least skim it all so you know what's in there. I'm not a rules lawyer, but I'd sure like to know if the DMG gives me guidelines for spotting distance to see a forest fire. It makes my job that much easier. I'm fairly sure TPK is not advocating throwing the book out the window and playing without it at all. He certainly has the attention span and concentration to sit down and read it. His point is that the book is not the be all and end all of DMing experience, although it's a good place to start. Can we all stop with the veiled ad hominem and straw man attacks now?
Lord of the Underdark 05-18-05, 03:54 PM	*stands and applauds* I was merely pointing out that I own most of the books from D&D 1st Edition...all the way through D&D 3rd Edition and that's the first I've heard of it. Personally, I think the best learning tool for DMing is experience. I was definitely not a good DM 17 years ago when I started...But, I've gotten better. :D EDIT: I agree with DeltaDave, just for the record.
UltimateReality 05-18-05, 04:42 PM	*stands and applauds*Damn, I should be a diplomat or something... :P I was merely pointing out that I own most of the books from D&D 1st Edition...all the way through D&D 3rd Edition and that's the first I've heard of it.Hm, TPK says he thought was in the 3E DMG too, but we gave ours away so I can't verify that. Personally, I think the best learning tool for DMing is experience. I was definitely not a good DM 17 years ago when I started...But, I've gotten better. :DYeah...it's the getting there that can be hard. As long as you have an understanding, patient, and forgiving group though, you should be okay. (It helps to have been a player first, too. ;))
weepingminotaur 05-19-05, 02:07 PM	As much as I sympathize with a newbie DM, he isn't ready to DM if he doesn't know at least the basic rules. Take him aside and offer to take over the campaign until he's more experienced. Once he's learned how to structure a simple, enjoyable module for the players, he can DM again.
Maerdash 05-19-05, 02:37 PM	I must say that the rules need to be understood, yes ive read the three core cover to cover many times, along withnumerous other wotc products that i own but (and i think tpk at least will agree) the rules are just a guide, what makes a good dm is equal parts talent,experience, and player feedback my 2 cents
Shaken, not Stunned 05-19-05, 03:07 PM	The DMG doesn't lend it's self to being read cover to cover. It 'reads like stereo instructions,' in fact. That doesn't mean the DM in question would not benefit from reading the book cover to cover. Just because no one expect you to refrain from diving off the roof of your house doesn't mean you shouldn't, after all. On topic, if EVERYONE BUT YOU is having fun, maybe you are the problem and not your DM. There may or may not be a right way to play D&D, but with the ultimate goal being have fun, as long as no one gets hurt it doesn't really matter. My advice to you is this: If you want someone to understand a new depth to something show them. You can't describe color to a blind man. You also can't hope to take over the blind mans head so he can undertand. You play once every two weeks, right? Start a game that meets on the off week.
weasel fierce 05-20-05, 01:54 AM	Start your own game, and show him how to do it better. Showing beats Telling, in most cases
Lorianne 05-20-05, 05:13 AM	Personally, I think the best learning tool for DMing is experience. I was definitely not a good DM 17 years ago when I started...But, I've gotten better. :D I fully agree, I've only been DMing for 3 years now (I played a year before starting my own game), and I must say that I've gotten better from experience. I'm not that great a DM, and won't consider myself to be for a long time, but I do have a much firmer grip on the sessions I run now, than I did even half a year ago. I've read the DMG (both 3.0 & 3.5) from cover to cover, and I've found that it contains a wealth of information about properly running sessions/campaigns. (But even so, you'll need experience to use the information in there.) ImagoKid: I suggest that you have patience with your DM, everyone has to start somewhere, and at least he's trying. Experience is the key here, so is talking with him to explain what you liked and disliked about the sessions. He doesn't want you to take over, but you could always help him by pointing him in the right direction. Sure, he'll not be great within the next month... or even within the next half year, everyone learns at a different rate. Just be patient. By the way... how old is he?
Draco Strang 05-20-05, 07:43 AM	Start your own game, and show him how to do it better. Showing beats Telling, in most cases Hellz yea. Sometimes the only way to make a DM better is to let him view a good one at work. Now, do you have it in you to be at least an approximation of the type of DM you wish this other guy was? If not, then there's not an awful lot that you can do. If so, then saddle up and ride, partner!
lord warrior 05-20-05, 10:09 AM	Ruin his "campaing". Then take over as a GM. Then exact your revenge by doing same thing to him.
Quoriil 05-20-05, 10:45 AM	Ruin his "campaing". Then take over as a GM. Then exact your revenge by doing same thing to him. Ummm... not good advice, even if meant as a joke. Bad blood won't help anybody and scrapping a campaign as a player, without talking to the DM and while being at odds with the rest of your group is a great way to loose the respect of your 'friends'. Being more immature than the rest of them won't solve anything... Talk, and if talking doesn't work and you don't think he'll ever get better, walk.
weasel fierce 05-20-05, 02:08 PM	Ruin his "campaing". Then take over as a GM. Then exact your revenge by doing same thing to him. In the same vein, I'd suggest poisoning his food. Because you know, its deadly serious business this here D&D
celtredleg 05-20-05, 02:38 PM	Every DM sucks to some players. Not everybody is compatatible. Most DMs also have areas they just dont handle well. I have played and DMed since 1977, and I still suck at a fantasy setting intrigue game. I play them well, just cant seem to get the hang of it as a DM. So I just avoid it. Same with another DMs style. If they and you cant get along, best usually to move on. Have you every tried to give advise to someone about a relationship when they dont want to hear it??? Advising DMs can be like that. Often you should just save your breath until they are ready to listen.
PoeticJustice 05-20-05, 05:29 PM	I think you should show 'em how it's done. As a player, you CAN influence the DM's style by the way you play. It's as simple as this: Player: I would like to make a (blank) check to do (blank) DM: Okay Player: Total is (blank) what happens Ask for information, or, I find that supplying it yourself, as a player, works just as well. Compliment a barwench on her red hair even if the DM hasn't described a barwench at all. Sniffle and sneeze while inside the dank old dungeon, even if it gives your position away. Discuss things in character with another character. I recommend you hit hard on one thing at first, or focus on interacting with one character at first in an attempt to get your party excited about that aspect of the game. Once one person starts doing what your doing, get another player in on it. Soon it won't matter how bad the Dm is!
UltimateReality 05-20-05, 07:40 PM	I think you should show 'em how it's done. As a player, you CAN influence the DM's style by the way you play. <snip> I recommend you hit hard on one thing at first, or focus on interacting with one character at first in an attempt to get your party excited about that aspect of the game. Once one person starts doing what your doing, get another player in on it. Soon it won't matter how bad the Dm is! I couldn't agree with this more. This is exactly how I converted our group. I started pulling heavy rp with another player and with the NPCs, the other players picked up on it, our long-time problem player dropped, and the DM later specifically requested I keep doing the RP as it "brought the other players out more too". The game is a lot more fun now, for everyone.
Twisted Puppy 05-20-05, 08:19 PM	Ruin his "campaing". Then take over as a GM. Then exact your revenge by doing same thing to him. Assuming you are all friends in this game, this is not a recommended course of action. If he's new at DMing you can expect some rough edges. Being overly critical or deliberately ruining the game won't help him improve. Be constructive in your criticism, and mention positives along with areas where he needs to improve.