Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 05-21-05, 11:20 AM	Okay, long story short: My character, a halfling Rogue/Paladin (going for Shadowbane Inquisitor) named Kady, recently made a bad tactical choice that involved attacking an enemy rather than protecting her companions. As a result, one companion died, and Kady died saving another. An NPC, impressed with Kady's actions, cast a True Resurrection on her, so she's back good as new. Now, here's the deal: This character has had a bit of a pride problem (what else, when you're Lawful Good?), and she knows it's a problem. As a result, I've decided that, since the original situation (the half-orc dying) was a result of her wanting to attack (and get the glory for killing the monster) rather than defend her companions, she's going to assign herself sort of an "atonement", to make up for it. (The DM didn't actually have her lose her powers, so it's not an official "atonement quest".) What I'm considering is a sort of modified vow of peace... not the feat, just an RP thing. For a set amount of time (a month? a year?) she's going to vow not to directly attack anything in the battles we encounter (we're in the middle of a war right now, so there will be many battles); rather, to support and heal her allies. From a tactics standpoint, this will turn her into a support character. From an RP standpoint, it's meant to teach her humility and teamwork. (Note: If attacking an enemy is necessary to protect a party member, Kady has determined she will make an exception to her vow.) So, my question is mostly tactical: How can I turn my character into a support character without making the party weaker? I need some suggestions as to what I can do in battle. The character, at present, has these skills: Rogue 8/Paladin 4, with all the skills that come with that. Rogue skills focus on Use Magic Device, Tumble, and Bluff (used for feinting, obviously), and Paladin skills on Knowledge (Religion) and Diplomacy. I do have some points in Open Lock and Disarm Trap, but only enough for simple locks and traps. Feats: Subdual Strike, Magical Aptitude, Power Attack, Quicker than the Eye. Stats, with items: DEX 21, CHA 16, WIS 14, INT 16, CON 11, STR 11. Party Members: The half-orc fighter, a bard, a dragon disciple, and probably another rogue, if the new girl is playing her usual class. I'm not sure, since with graduation recently having happened, we're losing senior players and gaining some freshmen next fall. Character Strengths: Mobility. I can get absolutely anywhere on the battlefield that I need to, even past other opponents. Magic. Believe it or not, Kady is the party arcane spellcaster! With the Use Magic Device skill as high as it is, all I worry about is rolling 1's. Also, I have all the spells on the Paladin list that I can cast from wands, scrolls, etc. without even rolling UMD. Saves. The multiclassing, plus the paladin's divine grace and a high CHA, allows for good saves. Fort. is still my worst, though. The other party members. We have two melee characters (the dragon disciple and the fighter) and a healer (the bard). So I won't leave too many holes if I decide to become a "support" character temporarily. Character Weaknesses: Low CON and STR. The low CON means I don't have any sort of staying power in combat, even with the paladin levels and some good rolls on the d10. The low STR means that if I can't sneak-attack it (by flanking and/or feinting), then I can't damage it physically. Code of Conduct. A weakness for a paladin... and worse for a rogue. There are things the character won't do because of her alignment--mostly, it has to do with being honorable. My high Bluff, for example, is only used in combat. Small size. This is a hindrance, generally, because of small weapons; but it's also rather hard to intimidate someone into surrendering to you when you're barely over two feet tall. Still, it's sometimes a help, because enemies underestimate the character. So... I need strategy help. As many ideas as possible would be appreciated. How can my character be a support character, not attack monsters, and still be as useful to the party as she has always been?
drizzt420 05-21-05, 12:14 PM	First and foremost remember this: just becasue you are a Paladin, does not mean you have to be the backbone of the fight. Perhaps your character feels horrendous at the error that was made. For this reason, and especially since the PC is a Paladin, the character would most likely be the type to not rush head strong into battle. Perhaps your Paladin now feels that their abilites would be best suited to protecting others in your party first and foremost. The paladin can still be the Lawful Badass that the paladin is, but this time making sure no one dies. That could be your credo or code of honor so to speak. This would not nescessarily change your battle tactics, just how you execute them. Charging headlong into battle should be reserved for intense and specific situations where that would be most adventageouds to the party as a whole (from the eyes of a Paladin). Perhaps if the party agrees, yes you should charge and dispose of that spellcaster back there, it's our best option - then you do that. It all really depends on the type of Paladin you play - and the party you are with. A vow of peace is honorable but beings your character is fighter oriented, you would be negelcting your abilites as a Paldin to just not fight. But beings you have fighter support already in the party, you could go on with your vow of peace and be the type of character that when you have to - you unleash hell. But up and until that point, your number one priority is your friends. I do not think this would weaken the party especially if you were a "bodyguard" so to speak to your party. You also say you are the arcane spellcaster of the group - maybe roll with that and gain some sorcerer levels or try to turn to Arcane Trickster, utilizing your rogue levels - or try something else. The possibilites are out there - you just need to roll with them. Even if your party is weakened by this transition - sometimes it is not about having the most potent party you can. I think that the story elements that could be created by your transitional vow would be more rewarding than dispatching the enemy the with the most effective way at hand. Some of my favorite charcters are support characters that just ooze personality and character. One is a Dwarven Bard (he's a drummer - wears a big battle drum and uses two clubs as drumsticks that also double as weapons if need be - he is a two weapon weilder as well) Hope my two cents was insightful and maybe a little helpful. Cheers :D
Callista 05-23-05, 02:41 PM	Oh, come on... one suggestion? Surely there's more original ideas out there than that...
Kintaran 05-23-05, 03:24 PM	One little note: Power Attack does have a requirement of Str 13. After racial adjustments. With the bard dumping spell slots on healing, a general support-caster role is quite feasible, if you can get the wands. Bless, prayer, haste, good hope, and the like are all good choices, though, economically speaking, it would be better to be actually a class with a support focus, like a cleric. But at least you have a 1st level spell slot for preparing bless. Actions like aid another, taking time in combat to try and use Diplomacy, stuff that normal PCs (the morons) never take time to do. With a character incapable or unwilling to directly attack the enemy, the best option is certainly healing/buff support. This character type can be incredibly useful, especially with a large party. You make the already scary melee combatants even scarier, with extra bonuses to hit, damage, and saves, while hanging close enough to the combat to occasionally draw off an extra attacker. If someone does come after you, and you cannot attack them, you could try tripping or disarming them, though as a halfling, that probably will not work well. There is always just bouncing away next to a melee fighter so that coming after you means being within the five-foot-step range and a possible target for a full attack. (This is much more of a deterrant if you're a cleric/monk hiding within the 20foot reach of an expanded psychic warrior with a spiked chain.) With the paladin abilities, you can also apply healing yourself, possibly freeing the bard for bardic music or casting, depending on spell selection.
Head_PC 1 05-23-05, 05:18 PM	Youve got a real winner of a DM, for sure.
Callista 05-23-05, 06:01 PM	My DM doesn't have anything to do with it; I'd hit him with the hammer-gun for sure if he'd told me I had to atone by not attacking things directly. Nope, this is my RP choice. I like it because it tickles my fancy, will develop the character, and presents interesting tactical problems... No bad DM involved. Just one very gung-ho role-player who would rather not cripple her party. :)
Lord of the Underdark 05-23-05, 06:10 PM	I would suggest "testing out the waters" first so as to not completely let your party down. Other than that, I'd say buff the crap out of whomever is going headlong into battle and cast some spells. (I.E. Play the divine spell-caster role instead of the tank)
MaxDog 05-23-05, 07:31 PM	If you want to "give someone the glory" you can always use the aid other option in combat. Our heavily armored cleric often does this -- her AB is not great, so its often more useful to have her give someone a +2 to attack. It's also beneficial because she's right there next to the heavy melee guys in case they need healing.
Callista 05-24-05, 10:09 AM	I'm aware of the STR 13 requirement for power attack... I have a pair of gauntlets that give me strength +2, and the DM has allowed it. I'm not arguing. :D I'm not wearing them presently to allow for a gauntlet of storing with a csw potion in it, and of course can't use the feat as a consequence; but then, I wouldn't do so often anyway--it's just there as a prereq. Doesn't it say somewhere that you can do Aid Another to give somebody +2 to AC as well?
Kintaran 05-24-05, 06:10 PM	Yes, but part of the aid another action involves hassling the enemy, since you can only use aid another to grant a bonus against an opponent you threaten. I figured that since you are basically executing a distracting attack (you make an attack roll against AC 10) that the action went against your stated restrictions. If you mean you just do not want to actually attack normally, it is probably your best option. You only have to threaten the enemy in question, you do not need to be adjacent to your ally. So you could tumble in to flank, and use aid another, to give your ally either +4 to hit, or +2 to hit & AC. Depends on the enemy, really.
Callista 05-25-05, 12:48 PM	Nice! That might actually be worth doing--the dragon disciple does a bit of damage when he hits, but has trouble hitting... so it could be useful on high-AC opponents. I'm starting to think that if I play this right, I may actually strengthen the party... they're mostly Chaotic, and in our organization for the glory and loot... :) so there's not too much teamwork. Well, that's partially our inexperience; none of us have played longer than 1 1/2 years, except for one of our DMs' three years experience. The point here is the spirit of the vow (Not to take the glory for herself), not the letter (not to attack directly). So Aid Another is quite in keeping with that.
Leap 05-25-05, 12:55 PM	Pride tends to be a "I'm seperate from, and better than, the rest of you"....and paladins tend to wear serious armour (which only adds to any "insulation")....(yes there is a point and I am getting to it, I am a Bard, I tend to waffle, its not illegal you know, in fact I used to know someone who did it quite a lot, met them in...oh...sorry ;) )....so howabouts dumping the +48 powershell and going for a scale jerkin. Nothing quite like a bit of vulnerability to loosen pride up :)
High Octane 05-25-05, 01:53 PM	Trip. Disarm. Aid Another.
StormKnight 05-25-05, 02:20 PM	Try to take advantage of your less-aggressive positioning. Use the time when you aren't charging into combat to survey the situation. Pay attention for things that your teammates, busy fighting in the middle of the battle, may be missing. If your group tends towards being a bit chaotic, you may be able to fall into a tactical-leadership position. If you want to protect the group, odds are you WILL still be fighting. Even wanting to practice humility I really can't see just the paladin sitting there letting her friends get beaten up. Just don't take the offensive on it - let your allies do that and support them as best you can.
Callista 05-25-05, 08:48 PM	And thus the reason for this thread... I don't *want* to sit around and let companions get beat up! INT 14 doesn't do that sort of thing, especially when it's good-aligned... I'm talking "support character", not "sit around and do nothing character". Re. Armor: Being an atypical paladin, with a lot of Rogue tactics (i.e., weapon finesse), she's already wearing light armor. Mithril chain shirt +1, to be exact. It's just sensible. *shrugs* Disarm? Hmm. Could work, but I don't have improved disarm.... Is there a finesseable weapon that you can disarm people with? (Besides spiked chain. I don't have, or want, the feat for it). In a fight where I couldn't easily hurt the opponent, I deliberately drew attacks of opportunity to allow the fighters more mobility. This was admittedly dangerous; but I was pretty sure (barring max-damage crits) that I'd survive it... So, would it make sense to actually attempt a disarm in order to provoke the attack of opportunity--giving me a benefit even without a successful disarm?
Kintaran 05-25-05, 09:41 PM	Well, as long as your target does not have Combat Reflexes, sure. All the better if you actually get their weapon away, but keep in mind the fact that if you fail, they get a reactive disarm. And, as noted, you are a halfling facing larger creatures, so you probably have a worse disarm/trip check, and probably do not deal enough damage for sunder to be decent. However, drawing an AoO and possibly losing your weapon to leave an opponent in a vulnerable position for another party member to exploit seems to fit your vow. I do think your best bet is Disarm, since your full attack bonus counts on the attempt. If you wear a gauntlet and use it for disarm attacks, you get Finesse and the reactive disarm does nothing, since you cannot be disarmed of gauntlets. Though they are smaller and more likely not to work than a rapier. Some DMs might allow you to end up with the weapon in hand after disarming with a gauntlet. It does make sense, though as I recall the disarm rules specify unarmed strike. This does have the side effect that you no longer draw your sword in a fight.
Callista 05-26-05, 08:04 AM	What about a locking gauntlet around my rapier hilt? Doesn't it give a bonus? Can I still activate wands, scrolls, and other such UMD-ish items with just my off hand free? Generally I use a buckler or no shield at all...
Kintaran 05-26-05, 10:33 AM	The locking gauntlet merely makes disarming harder, by giving you a +10 bonus to avoid. Still possible to lose the weapon. You only need one hand free to cast spells with a somatic component, or use spell-trigger/spell-completion items in most cases, and a buckler-wielding arm does count as a free hand.
quetzyl 05-26-05, 11:14 AM	Note that you can fight defensively yourself while aiding another, and the -4 penalty is less of a problem when you only need to hit AC 10. I would also suggest you try to acquire a wand with some buff spell like aid, shield of faith or bull strength, that you can use on your party mates. Cheers, quetzyl
Callista 05-26-05, 12:45 PM	Oh, that's right--I have a wand of bull's strength already; we found it in our last big treasure! Of course, the fighter has got his +6 giant strength girdle already; but the others could benefit. The bard has trouble on her spell saving throws sometimes, too (they're a bit low), so scrolls (?wands?) of eagle's splendor might help. Since I've got a very good UMD score (+25 on scrolls, +21 on everything else), I might even get some mid-level defense scrolls. I already carry two wands of Cure Light Wounds (from before the paladin levels, when I still had to UMD-trigger them and risked rolling a one) and about ten scrolls of True Strike (these will be fairly useless, of course). My character and the bard have been doing all the healing--I wonder if I can simply buff the bard's ability to use her fairly flashy frost crossbow (say that three times fast!) and do all the healing myself... CSW scrolls are not too bad on a level-12 budget. I dunno if I want to give up my instant healing (glove of storing and CSW potion) for a locked gauntlet... but that +10 would really help a halfling disarm someone without problems. I'll just buy another masterwork rapier so I can carry two rapiers and draw the other on my next move action if disarmed... I'd have to carry two scabbards, though... hmm, I don't think it would be too cumbersome, if I tied them together or even had a special one made to hold two rapiers... And a mithril weapon would help a STR 11 Halfling with the weight. *thinks hard*