Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Abbacabba 06-19-07, 06:02 PM	I'm posting this because my players rarely use the wizards forums. They are about to go up against a small demonic force.. 2 of the demons are from OA... CR 13-14, blasphemy at will, and some nasty stat damage attacks. the rest are : 1. BEBILITH 2. BEBILITH 3. GLABREZU 4. GLABREZU 5. RETRIEVER 6. Human Sorcerer - Level 12-14 specialized in illusions... not a demon but works with them. They are not strong enough to take this group out... but they seem dead set on attacking. They plan to teleport in, even knowing that they will have anticipate teleportation on. I have six players all level 7 with 1 Gestalt level (odd I know, big reward given two sessions ago).. They have access to cleric's and wizards level 1-5 and one level 13 wizard. How should they prepare... they know everything about the monsters(everything that would be in the MM)... PC's : Bard/Bar/Rog/Clr/Ftr/???/??? <--- Dont ask Monk 7 Barb6/Frenzied Bezerker1 Warmage 7 DragonFire Adept 7 Sorcerer 7
Phrennzy 06-19-07, 07:55 PM	Perhaps I am not clear on the power level of the Gestalt, but a single Bebelith and Glabrezu would be enough to tear a 6 man party of level 7's a new hole. There is no way for them to prepare. They will all die.
oden131 06-19-07, 08:25 PM	i don't know could they get surprise and cast a force cage or something, cast gate and have demon on demon action
Abbacabba 06-19-07, 11:51 PM	Perhaps I am not clear on the power level of the Gestalt, but a single Bebelith and Glabrezu would be enough to tear a 6 man party of level 7's a new hole. There is no way for them to prepare. They will all die. They are not gestalt all the way.. just their level 6 they were able to take two classes and merge into one. Kind of a story reward. There are six PC's, and I know its near certain death, but they shouldn't be going up against all of these. They should be waiting until theres just 2-3. *Should* :) If you have any suggestions for them I'll pass them along, I don't think I can really offer advice at this point since I'm the DM and know what the other side is planning.
Drag0nUL 06-20-07, 02:03 AM	Honestly I don't think they have a chance, if you play your demons with a minimum of intelligence. If your players are non-evil, the blasphemy cast by those CR 13-14 demons is enough to end the fight. I assume CL at least 13. This means paralysis for 1d10 minutes, more than enough to CDG each several times. And even if they manage to get the demons split up, every one of the demons you listed, not to mention the sorcerer is more than capable to take down a 7th level party. If you don't want a TPK and they still attack against all odds, you could just cast blasphemy and take them prisoners. P.S.:Without getting their hands on scrolls of spell immunity:blasphemy, they shouldn't even bother to try.
Abbacabba 06-20-07, 09:22 AM	Blasphemy should be stopped by silence. I'm guessing they will all have silence cast on themselfs and perhaps an object or two. Of course if they will quickly be hit with Dispel Magic, Greater and perhaps a Dispel Magic. If the silence holds they should be able to survive past round 1. Its getting past that where I see the problems for them. :confused: They *do* have access to one candle of invocation which can be used to gate in a creature. Any suggestions on what to call in?(Solar?) If they used the candle before hand, gated in a solar, couldn't he pretty much wipe out the demons almost single handed? I mean the +5 dancing longsword plus poping out arrows of slaying should have the fight over pretty quickly dont you think?
Nentisys 06-20-07, 09:56 AM	Hmm.. given that you didnt tell us any of the background I think that your players are pretty insane ;) Anyway, the Solar idea would be pretty good, although it would take him a while to chop them all up, assuming that they dont just flee or attack your players. Another idea is the classical "we overpower you so we just take you prisoner" plot hook, allowing them a chance to maybe escape later. Blashemy would make taking them prisoners a joke. Reasons why the demons would take them prisoners could range from the mundane to the bizarre: 1) Interragation (by someone else than the demons, to allow at least some chance) 2) Giving them as a "present" to their boss/BBEG/whatever 3) planning to sacrifice them later. Im sure you could come up with hundreds of good reasons, so thats just a few examples.
Phrennzy 06-20-07, 09:59 AM	"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure." Well, gating in a Solar would probably do the trick. However, you are Calling a great creature of good - forcing them directly into harm - forcing them to serve you. Doesn't strike me as a very good act. Usurping the free will of an angel strikes me as heading down the path of the dark side... Why do the players think they need to attack these demons?
Abbacabba 06-20-07, 10:18 AM	:Short version: The players are on an island, demons arrived many years ago, they have been involved in a slow fight/war with the islands humans and *small* number of celestial/good beings. The PC's arrive and find the demons are trying to figure out some device to destroy the humans. This is whats kept the demons from just storming the cities, they were planning on using a device from afar to "win". The PC's did a good job of destroying the device... (thats what go them the Gestalt level reward.) The demons then attacked the humans, and after three weeks of fighting the demons have been pretty much wiped out. All that remains are ~1500 demons against the remaining 10,000 humans(that can fight). The demon leader is fearing that her minions are about to turn against her... so shes planning to directly assault the PC's. The PC's know/guess this and instead of planning a defensive strategy, they are planning an offensive strike. Right now they are in a city that effectively counts as holy ground(demons get -2 to -6 on many aspects if they enter the city). I would think they would plan for an attack. But their conversation has been turning more towards them attacking first. *** And what about gating in the Solar and explaining the situation. Wouldn't a Solar want to help if given the option? ***
Phrennzy 06-20-07, 11:42 PM	*** And what about gating in the Solar and explaining the situation. Wouldn't a Solar want to help if given the option? *** "I cannot help you. If I step in and destroy these demons, I am meddling in mortal affairs, which then tips the balance to evil, allowing Balors to have free reign on earth. You know, I really can't totally explain it to you mortals, because of your limited intellect. Just try to understand that me helping you will hurt everyone in the long run."
Empirate 06-21-07, 10:38 AM	"I cannot help you. If I step in and destroy these demons, I am meddling in mortal affairs, which then tips the balance to evil, allowing Balors to have free reign on earth. You know, I really can't totally explain it to you mortals, because of your limited intellect. Just try to understand that me helping you will hurt everyone in the long run." "Well you know, since technically we could force you, almighty Solar though you may be, because we have this Gate spell going here, maybe this will be a good excuse for meddling?" But seriously, your group is waaay out of their depth here. A Bebilith alone would probably kill them all. The only way they can take the offensive is with help much more powerful than they are. Try to make this clear to them. Try not to leave a shade of doubt that attacking these demons WILL get everybody killed, and NO good will come of it. How can they know "everything there is to know" from the MM and still contemplate this tomfoolery? Gate in a Solar, or whatever, OK, but attack on their own? Not a snowball's chance on the Plane of Fire!
Abbacabba 06-21-07, 04:42 PM	I'm not really seeing it work out either, but they still seem to be working on some way to win. In my cosmology, they should be able to gate in a Solar. If they do so forcefully they will get repercussions. If they ask for help I'm pretty sure they will get it for some future service. Even with the Solar it doesn't turn into an instant win for them... The Solar wouldn't think of going by itself.
WolfHati 06-21-07, 07:12 PM	The OA demons and the Nalfenshee will utterly destroy them, hands down. So they need to find a way to deal with those and draw them off from the others. Probably having a solar help with that might be good. The glaberezu as well are totally well out of the characters league. The retriever is vulnerable to a slow spell, with no spell resistance and a meager will save of 3, provided that none of the demons with dispel is nearby. The bebilith also have a chance of being slowed, though it is much less than the retriever, as they have a will save of 9. Either of these creatures is going to be a problem in close combat, even slowed, so the only option really is to keep out of range and chip at them from a distance. The retriever will likely kill someone with an eye ray or two before the characters get out of range, since slow only has a 40 ft range. The frenzied berserker is probably also going to bite it unless he completely avoids getting hit. Even one of these lesser demons would be a fair challenge for a well prepared party. They might, with great luck and planning and a lot of buffs, take out a retriever and a bebilith. Much more than that is pointlessly suicidal rather than regular old suicidal.
Phrennzy 06-21-07, 08:58 PM	Actually, I may have the win for you with a simple 3rd level spell. Fly. I don't know about the OA demons, but the others can't fly. They can Teleport, but can't fly. So the entire party gets fly spells, port in, nuke the sorcerer, and then pick off everyone else from long range. Dispel Magic has a range of roughly 200' for the demons, with other abilities far shorter than that. Fly and rain arrows down. Massive negatives to hit, but oh well - war of attrition.
runestar 06-21-07, 10:41 PM	Even if the demons can't fly, they can still teleport into the air, and try to grapple one of the PCs before falling back down...:P
WolfHati 06-22-07, 02:47 AM	I think one of them has reverse gravity, too, which means they could coordinate a soft landing if given time. That would however take some mighty smart demons. Otherwise they may well go splat.
Empirate 06-22-07, 03:18 AM	Fly? Against teleporting demons? You mean, even if they don't get the idea of teleporting up there and grappling, they would stay around for your little war of attrition? Why wouldn't they just teleport away a short distance? Besides, the sorcerer alone could easily toast the party at his level. He's got access to 6th or even 7th level spells! What can they possibly do against that? Or, he might consider putting up a force wall or wind wall or whatever he can as an obstacle for flying archers and summon more demons, flying ones this time.
itwasntme 06-22-07, 04:41 AM	i dont know why none of you cought onto this but ... A Level 7 Sor cant cast Gate ... even if they used there buddie the level 12 Wizard he cant even cast Gate Hint hint its a 9th level spell ... He has 6th level spell MAX (12th level dude) Your players will have to take them on 1 at a time and possibly use posin agest them Use posin agest the Wizard (If you can get him alone) And quickly take him out (He has a Week Fort save so use something on that line) Then you should continue to take them on 1 at a time ... Heal between battles and eveything But you could possibly do this battle that is IF you where to take them on 1 at a time and had time to heal between the battles Besides ive played with groups of 5 level 3 characters take on a level 11 Wizard (Who knew they where comming Via Fimamler) And won ... ok so the only person alive at the end of it was the Barbian level 2 / Fighter level 1 (Hes level diping in Barbian and is planing on taking the rest of his levels in Fighter) so yes you could VERY Rarely take on CR of higher then your level (By 6 points or more)
runestar 06-22-07, 07:18 AM	Your players will have to take them on 1 at a time and possibly use posin agest them I hope you do realize that demons are immune to poison...:)
Phrennzy 06-22-07, 09:56 AM	Even if the demons can't fly, they can still teleport into the air, and try to grapple one of the PCs before falling back down... Fly? Against teleporting demons? You mean, even if they don't get the idea of teleporting up there and grappling Using teleport is a standard action. How would they then begin the grapple? Like I said - this isn't the best solution, but it certainly is the most viable if they are going to head on attack. The best plan would be to pop in and concentrate fire on the sorcerer and pray you can take him out in the surprise round and before he can act in the first round.
Derren S. 06-22-07, 03:55 PM	You forget that some demons can cast dispell magic at will and that the sorcerer can cast fly on the demons. With this, basing the whole plan on the ability of you to fly and the inability of the enemy to do the same is pretty weak.
Phrennzy 06-23-07, 02:51 AM	You forget that some demons can cast dispell magic at will and that the sorcerer can cast fly on the demons. With this, basing the whole plan on the ability of you to fly and the inability of the enemy to do the same is pretty weak. The range on Dispel is not that great. I wouldn't be attacking them head on as his party seems to want to. But if I was forced to, it would be flying and targeting everything at the sorc. Take him out and things get easier.
Derren S. 06-23-07, 11:38 AM	The range on Dispel is not that great. Gret enough to outrange many spells the PC can cast and depending on the location you can't fly that far away (forest, city, cave,...) Also you think that the demons are totally stupid. They would simply teleport away when they are at a big disadvantage.
Phrennzy 06-24-07, 01:20 AM	Gret enough to outrange many spells the PC can cast and depending on the location you can't fly that far away (forest, city, cave,...) Also you think that the demons are totally stupid. They would simply teleport away when they are at a big disadvantage. Good. Get em out of there. The point of this thread is to help his foolish group attack what is obviously a TPK. Flight is about as good a tactical advantage as they are gonna get.