Help out a Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help out a Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Super Guy
05-11-04, 08:19 PM I posted this topic at the optimization board, but they said it would probably be the best idea to post it here:

I'm not precisely sure this goes on this board... I'm looking for the best way to have my rogue 'beat the system'. I don't know how to phrase it, so I'll say my question.

In a month or so our DM is going to start another campaign. He's a balanced guy, he doesn't underpower but he doesn't overpower, and he plays fair and reasonably. We're starting out at thirteenth level and I'm going all rogue and master thief, a prestige class that my DM made that those who I have shown it to on the boards have said is balanced. Anyways, let's assume I'm a bit higher level, and I'm robbing a powerful wizards guild. At night.

I'm pretty sure it's legal to cast Permanency from a scroll using Use Magic Device, and then follow it up with Arcane Sight, so I would do that to have permanent Arcane Sight.

Now, I'm in there. I can bypass pretty much anything, I figure. With Arcane Sights I can determine where there are spells, and with really good search, disable device, hides and move silently I can get past traps and (hopefully) guards.

However, my DM brought up the point that they could have dogs. Dogs could sniff me out, right? The object here isn't kill anything that gets in my way, it's don't let things get in my way. I don't want anyone to know I was there until, at least, I'm about to escape or have escaped. I can't rightly just cast sleep, 'cause if this is a very powerful guild I doubt that the guard holding the dog will fall for it, and he'll obviously know what's up. I could turn ethereal, but what if they have everything Dimension Locked?

I even figure, I could bypass Prismatic Wall/Sphere by using silent scrolls to destroy the wall/sphere after I've cast a permanent image of a prismatic wall/sphere so that no one, if anyone is there, is any the wiser. But I can't think of a way past these dogs! Or, worse yet, something with tremorsense and scent.

Does anyone have any ideas on bypassing this?

Thanks.
Xychotic
05-11-04, 08:47 PM I suggest cat urine and scentbreakers. A red herring might work too, but then you'd be really fishy. (Ducks to avoid tomatoes and battle axes.)
ehrin
05-11-04, 08:50 PM try prestidigitation.

it flavors food, and most of food flavor is scent, so why not have a mage "flavor" you?
Heron_Marked_Blade
05-11-04, 09:41 PM Scroll of pass without trace. If you can stay out of view, you're golden. Tremorsense is harder to avoid, but if you have Boots of Flying, you're home free.
Super Guy
05-11-04, 09:44 PM Ah, yes, pretigidation or using that urine trick would certainly work. Thanks for the help.

I'm wondering now, though...what if they have something with tremorsense? I couldn't levitate and hide at the same time. I suppose I could turn into a flying insect, but when it comes to lifting objects... I wouldn't be able to.

There might not be any way to beat tremorsense and still be able to lift objects (assuming that the area is dimension locked so ethereal won't work, and that invisibility won't work due to a Robe of Eyes) but if there is does anyone have any crafty ideas?

Edit: Didn't even think of Pass Without Trace- thanks =]
It's just the hiding while flying part is, unless it's perfect flight, hard to do.

Edit: Technically it says that Pass Without Trace prevents you from being tracked through any nonmagical means. And Tremorsense is quite a lot like tracking- not to mention that Pass Without Trace specifies you don't leave footprints. It could be that you simply don't create force on the ground and therefore don't leave them. I'll definitely have to go over this with my DM.
Xychotic
05-11-04, 09:52 PM Tremorsense is thwarted with a slinky and a staircase. :D

You might serously consider throwing a bag of marbles down the hall within range of the temorsensing critter. It senses a group of moving objects and goes to investigate. You move in behind it, maybe even climbing on the walls to avoid detection.

Also, a gnomish windup walker would work. You wind it up, and it walks.
Super Guy
05-11-04, 09:54 PM All good ideas. If my DM makes the call that tremorsense can still sense you, and there is a tremorsensing creature, then I'll probably do that to get its attention.
BW0222
05-12-04, 02:13 AM >Does anyone have any ideas on bypassing this?

Dispell magic ends the permanency. Always a useful spell for mid-to-high level casters to through out against 13th-level parties.

Bats, creatures with scent, physical traps, etc., etc. Possibly non-detection, limited wish, spell immunity, etc.
Bedevere
05-12-04, 09:37 AM Doesnt Arcane Sight make your eyes glow? Not very useful for a subtle rogue trying to sneak in to places...
Jimmy P
05-12-04, 04:31 PM Originally posted by Super Guy

I couldn't levitate and hide at the same time.

Why not? What's the diffence between ducking into the shadows on foot, and ducking into the shadows a few inches off the ground? Even invisible characters can make hide checks, something I would reccomend you do as a powerful mage school would equip sentries with goggles of true seeing.

It is also my experience that if the place seems impossible to break into, then it is. Why not try subtety and get escorted in as a guest, or get glibness cast on you and talk your way in as a cleaner of magic artifacts. With that +20 bonus on bluff, +16 from ranks and a charisma of at least +2 (total 38) you could convince the doorman you were the archcancellor having an accident with polymorph on the roll of a 7.
Of course you still have to get the item, but pick pocket is also a skill you should have mastered.

If you want true metagame thinking then introduce your DM to the Discworld novels several weeks before he plans the mage school, particularly The Colour of Magic, The Light Fantastic, Sourcery, Eric, Interesting Times, The Last Continent and possible Science of Discworld. Chances are the guild will become a university of some sort, all the wizards will be fat and have enormous beards and couldn't find their arses with an atlas, even though some show up on it. If you see a thin one with 'Wizzard' written on his hat, don't try to get him to join you on a quest and whatever you do, don't say monkey.
Super Guy
05-12-04, 07:47 PM Hm...I'm not quite worried about being dispelled by anyone. I'll try to find the highest level scroll of Permanency (hopefully 20) and, as far as heists go, there would be no reason for a mage to randomly cast dispell on me when it's not apparent I have any spells on. By the time they could tell, shoot, I'd be gone. Unless one of them has Arcane Sight... But I'd just have Nystuul's Nonmagic Aura on all my stuff so that they couldn't detect me. And, if for some reason I get stuck in a dispell, chances are that the wizard won't be able to dispell it unless he was very good or lucky.

The idea about bluffing is good, though. I could certainly do that. And my pick pocket is really good, too.

About my eyes, they do glow, but...I'll wear shades. =P
Tony Vargas
05-12-04, 09:55 PM As a general rule, Hiding & Sneaking should work against a variety of senses, not just ordinary sight and sound - something as simple as aproaching a creature with a sensitive nose from downwind, for instance, or evading Tremorsense by walking /very/ lightly - otherwise, stealth skills are obviated pretty early on. Failing that, though, since you're obviously making heavy use of UMD, you could pick up a - I think it's called "Hide From Animals" - scroll (druid/ranger spell that well, hides you from animals).

I think all the magic kinda blows the rogue's coolness though - they /can/ spot magical traps, even without detect magic or arcane sight, and are as good as you can get at sneaking past guardians - they should have a shot even without a lot of magical assistance.
FuFu
05-13-04, 05:17 PM I agree... the use of "Move Silently" would imply that you move using less pressure, in effect making less sound... So with distractions (or maybe even just a good amount of MS) you could get past a creature with tremorsense.
Super Guy
05-13-04, 06:34 PM Yeah, I suppose so. I can spot magic traps, I don't need Arcane Sight, it's just that Arcane Sight helps if an area has Alarm cast on it, or some other thing that is not a trap but could do serious harm to my plans.

The thing about levitate and hiding is that Levitate is not a very dexterity-promoting spell. You can move up or down, but you are helpless when it comes to moving yourself forwards or backwards- you need something to push on. If someone quickly turned around, I wouldn't logically have enough time to move to a hiding spot.

Now that I've worked out all that... with multiple answers to many questions... the problem will only lie with the situation. But, knowing different solutions, I'm sure I can apply one on the run to secure a good plan. Thanks for the help.
tiercel
05-13-04, 07:47 PM Yeah - just going to add, though the Arcane Sight is a good idea, I wouldn't rely on it too much; anything important enough to have a really nasty magic trap or that really needs an alarm spell on it is important enough to have that good old 1st-level spell to mask its magic aura.

By the way, don't forget the possibility of guard-creatures that have blindsense/blindsight - there aren't that many of them, but if I were paranoid about security I'd sure like to have one or more creatures with those qualities. [Often blindsense/blindsight manifest as some kind of echolocation, so a silence spell on an object you carry/wear may help block that, though an even moderately clever creature will grow alarmed that there is suddenly a "dead" area approaching that its senses can't penetrate - much as if a globe of darkness was walking up to you.]

To some extent, you have to get inside the head of your opponent - in character, this means finding out what you can about the wizards (out of character, how does your DM think). If you have an evil DM who decides that that the high-level paranoid guildmaster is advised by a Arcane Trickster with stacks of ranks in Craft(trapmaking), then you should be wary of all sorts of bizarre guard creatures, tricks, traps, and alarms, magical and mundane, in unusual combinations and in unusual places (i.e. places you won't think to Search unless you compulsively Search the floor, walls, and ceiling every time you move 5'). If your DM is more straightforward and the wizards are complacent in their superiority, then you may be able to get to the Main Vault without too much trouble and merely face multiple layers of scary glowing runes.

Doing some in-character investigations with your own guild, or schmoozing with a few wizards (Disguise, Bluff, Gather Info, etc) might let you know what you are up against and what you really need to prepare for.
Impecunious_Mortal
05-13-04, 07:47 PM wizards are a tricky bunch.Never underestimate them.Each could have hidden vaults far from the tower that they teleport to.I've found it much easier to steal from a king than a large guild of wizards.If there is an evil wiz(or CN) they would have no qualms conjuring(or hiring) a BBED to hunt down their loot and kill you for taking it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Super Guy 05-11-04, 08:19 PM	I posted this topic at the optimization board, but they said it would probably be the best idea to post it here: I'm not precisely sure this goes on this board... I'm looking for the best way to have my rogue 'beat the system'. I don't know how to phrase it, so I'll say my question. In a month or so our DM is going to start another campaign. He's a balanced guy, he doesn't underpower but he doesn't overpower, and he plays fair and reasonably. We're starting out at thirteenth level and I'm going all rogue and master thief, a prestige class that my DM made that those who I have shown it to on the boards have said is balanced. Anyways, let's assume I'm a bit higher level, and I'm robbing a powerful wizards guild. At night. I'm pretty sure it's legal to cast Permanency from a scroll using Use Magic Device, and then follow it up with Arcane Sight, so I would do that to have permanent Arcane Sight. Now, I'm in there. I can bypass pretty much anything, I figure. With Arcane Sights I can determine where there are spells, and with really good search, disable device, hides and move silently I can get past traps and (hopefully) guards. However, my DM brought up the point that they could have dogs. Dogs could sniff me out, right? The object here isn't kill anything that gets in my way, it's don't let things get in my way. I don't want anyone to know I was there until, at least, I'm about to escape or have escaped. I can't rightly just cast sleep, 'cause if this is a very powerful guild I doubt that the guard holding the dog will fall for it, and he'll obviously know what's up. I could turn ethereal, but what if they have everything Dimension Locked? I even figure, I could bypass Prismatic Wall/Sphere by using silent scrolls to destroy the wall/sphere after I've cast a permanent image of a prismatic wall/sphere so that no one, if anyone is there, is any the wiser. But I can't think of a way past these dogs! Or, worse yet, something with tremorsense and scent. Does anyone have any ideas on bypassing this? Thanks.
Xychotic 05-11-04, 08:47 PM	I suggest cat urine and scentbreakers. A red herring might work too, but then you'd be really fishy. (Ducks to avoid tomatoes and battle axes.)
ehrin 05-11-04, 08:50 PM	try prestidigitation. it flavors food, and most of food flavor is scent, so why not have a mage "flavor" you?
Heron_Marked_Blade 05-11-04, 09:41 PM	Scroll of pass without trace. If you can stay out of view, you're golden. Tremorsense is harder to avoid, but if you have Boots of Flying, you're home free.
Super Guy 05-11-04, 09:44 PM	Ah, yes, pretigidation or using that urine trick would certainly work. Thanks for the help. I'm wondering now, though...what if they have something with tremorsense? I couldn't levitate and hide at the same time. I suppose I could turn into a flying insect, but when it comes to lifting objects... I wouldn't be able to. There might not be any way to beat tremorsense and still be able to lift objects (assuming that the area is dimension locked so ethereal won't work, and that invisibility won't work due to a Robe of Eyes) but if there is does anyone have any crafty ideas? Edit: Didn't even think of Pass Without Trace- thanks =] It's just the hiding while flying part is, unless it's perfect flight, hard to do. Edit: Technically it says that Pass Without Trace prevents you from being tracked through any nonmagical means. And Tremorsense is quite a lot like tracking- not to mention that Pass Without Trace specifies you don't leave footprints. It could be that you simply don't create force on the ground and therefore don't leave them. I'll definitely have to go over this with my DM.
Xychotic 05-11-04, 09:52 PM	Tremorsense is thwarted with a slinky and a staircase. :D You might serously consider throwing a bag of marbles down the hall within range of the temorsensing critter. It senses a group of moving objects and goes to investigate. You move in behind it, maybe even climbing on the walls to avoid detection. Also, a gnomish windup walker would work. You wind it up, and it walks.
Super Guy 05-11-04, 09:54 PM	All good ideas. If my DM makes the call that tremorsense can still sense you, and there is a tremorsensing creature, then I'll probably do that to get its attention.
BW0222 05-12-04, 02:13 AM	>Does anyone have any ideas on bypassing this? Dispell magic ends the permanency. Always a useful spell for mid-to-high level casters to through out against 13th-level parties. Bats, creatures with scent, physical traps, etc., etc. Possibly non-detection, limited wish, spell immunity, etc.
Bedevere 05-12-04, 09:37 AM	Doesnt Arcane Sight make your eyes glow? Not very useful for a subtle rogue trying to sneak in to places...
Jimmy P 05-12-04, 04:31 PM	Originally posted by Super Guy I couldn't levitate and hide at the same time. Why not? What's the diffence between ducking into the shadows on foot, and ducking into the shadows a few inches off the ground? Even invisible characters can make hide checks, something I would reccomend you do as a powerful mage school would equip sentries with goggles of true seeing. It is also my experience that if the place seems impossible to break into, then it is. Why not try subtety and get escorted in as a guest, or get glibness cast on you and talk your way in as a cleaner of magic artifacts. With that +20 bonus on bluff, +16 from ranks and a charisma of at least +2 (total 38) you could convince the doorman you were the archcancellor having an accident with polymorph on the roll of a 7. Of course you still have to get the item, but pick pocket is also a skill you should have mastered. If you want true metagame thinking then introduce your DM to the Discworld novels several weeks before he plans the mage school, particularly The Colour of Magic, The Light Fantastic, Sourcery, Eric, Interesting Times, The Last Continent and possible Science of Discworld. Chances are the guild will become a university of some sort, all the wizards will be fat and have enormous beards and couldn't find their arses with an atlas, even though some show up on it. If you see a thin one with 'Wizzard' written on his hat, don't try to get him to join you on a quest and whatever you do, don't say monkey.
Super Guy 05-12-04, 07:47 PM	Hm...I'm not quite worried about being dispelled by anyone. I'll try to find the highest level scroll of Permanency (hopefully 20) and, as far as heists go, there would be no reason for a mage to randomly cast dispell on me when it's not apparent I have any spells on. By the time they could tell, shoot, I'd be gone. Unless one of them has Arcane Sight... But I'd just have Nystuul's Nonmagic Aura on all my stuff so that they couldn't detect me. And, if for some reason I get stuck in a dispell, chances are that the wizard won't be able to dispell it unless he was very good or lucky. The idea about bluffing is good, though. I could certainly do that. And my pick pocket is really good, too. About my eyes, they do glow, but...I'll wear shades. =P
Tony Vargas 05-12-04, 09:55 PM	As a general rule, Hiding & Sneaking should work against a variety of senses, not just ordinary sight and sound - something as simple as aproaching a creature with a sensitive nose from downwind, for instance, or evading Tremorsense by walking /very/ lightly - otherwise, stealth skills are obviated pretty early on. Failing that, though, since you're obviously making heavy use of UMD, you could pick up a - I think it's called "Hide From Animals" - scroll (druid/ranger spell that well, hides you from animals). I think all the magic kinda blows the rogue's coolness though - they /can/ spot magical traps, even without detect magic or arcane sight, and are as good as you can get at sneaking past guardians - they should have a shot even without a lot of magical assistance.
FuFu 05-13-04, 05:17 PM	I agree... the use of "Move Silently" would imply that you move using less pressure, in effect making less sound... So with distractions (or maybe even just a good amount of MS) you could get past a creature with tremorsense.
Super Guy 05-13-04, 06:34 PM	Yeah, I suppose so. I can spot magic traps, I don't need Arcane Sight, it's just that Arcane Sight helps if an area has Alarm cast on it, or some other thing that is not a trap but could do serious harm to my plans. The thing about levitate and hiding is that Levitate is not a very dexterity-promoting spell. You can move up or down, but you are helpless when it comes to moving yourself forwards or backwards- you need something to push on. If someone quickly turned around, I wouldn't logically have enough time to move to a hiding spot. Now that I've worked out all that... with multiple answers to many questions... the problem will only lie with the situation. But, knowing different solutions, I'm sure I can apply one on the run to secure a good plan. Thanks for the help.
tiercel 05-13-04, 07:47 PM	Yeah - just going to add, though the Arcane Sight is a good idea, I wouldn't rely on it too much; anything important enough to have a really nasty magic trap or that really needs an alarm spell on it is important enough to have that good old 1st-level spell to mask its magic aura. By the way, don't forget the possibility of guard-creatures that have blindsense/blindsight - there aren't that many of them, but if I were paranoid about security I'd sure like to have one or more creatures with those qualities. [Often blindsense/blindsight manifest as some kind of echolocation, so a silence spell on an object you carry/wear may help block that, though an even moderately clever creature will grow alarmed that there is suddenly a "dead" area approaching that its senses can't penetrate - much as if a globe of darkness was walking up to you.] To some extent, you have to get inside the head of your opponent - in character, this means finding out what you can about the wizards (out of character, how does your DM think). If you have an evil DM who decides that that the high-level paranoid guildmaster is advised by a Arcane Trickster with stacks of ranks in Craft(trapmaking), then you should be wary of all sorts of bizarre guard creatures, tricks, traps, and alarms, magical and mundane, in unusual combinations and in unusual places (i.e. places you won't think to Search unless you compulsively Search the floor, walls, and ceiling every time you move 5'). If your DM is more straightforward and the wizards are complacent in their superiority, then you may be able to get to the Main Vault without too much trouble and merely face multiple layers of scary glowing runes. Doing some in-character investigations with your own guild, or schmoozing with a few wizards (Disguise, Bluff, Gather Info, etc) might let you know what you are up against and what you really need to prepare for.
Impecunious_Mortal 05-13-04, 07:47 PM	wizards are a tricky bunch.Never underestimate them.Each could have hidden vaults far from the tower that they teleport to.I've found it much easier to steal from a king than a large guild of wizards.If there is an evil wiz(or CN) they would have no qualms conjuring(or hiring) a BBED to hunt down their loot and kill you for taking it.