Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragon Eye 12-03-04, 11:09 AM	We have this one player who is constantly stealing from the party. He is the only PC that can identify items, so after he finds out what an item does, he switches it for a similar but less powerful item. For example, if the party finds a ring of protection +2, he will switch it with his +1 ring and tell the party that is what he identified. As a PC, what can I do about this? There is no reason for my character to not trust him, and even if I did, there still wouldn’t be a way to know that he lied. Thanks for you help.
Lord Santheocles 12-03-04, 11:12 AM	Bluff checks and opposed sense motive checks by the entire party. he better pray to whatever god is listening that he makes all his checks. that will either give him what his obvious lies deserve, or make him stop nicking stuff. alternitavely, "accidently" let him get charged by a big nasty BBEG, and when you pick up his mush off the floor, nick back all the items, replacing them with his originals.
Derren S. 12-03-04, 11:19 AM	there still wouldn’t be a way to know that he lied. You would always get a sense motive check, even when you trust him. He would only get a high modifier on his bluff check. Also there are magical means like Discern Lies etc. But the easiest way would be the next time you find a unidentified magical thing, just ask the DM for a exact description of the item. Unless all rings/swords/whatever looks the same in your world it is very easy to tell when they are switched.
Phrennzy 12-03-04, 11:19 AM	Switching items wouldn't work: PC #1: "Hey look, we found this silver ring! I wonder if it's magical? Here, will you please identify it." Stealing PC: "Sure, let me have it and give me an hour." One hour later: Stealing PC: "Here you go. It's a +1 ring of protection." PC#1: "Um, this gold ring with rubies - where's the silver ring I gave you to identify?" (Unsheathes his sword.) D&D isn't a computer game where all of the items look exactly alike. Next time he wants to screw his party over, explain that to him. Then smack him in the face for being lame.
orionm42 12-03-04, 11:28 AM	Then smack him in the face for being lame. Agreed!!! Also, I am assuming the DM knows the PC is stealing treasure from the group. If the DM is aware of it, he should allocate less treasure (i.e. gold) to the thief to compensate for the stolen items.
Gnomish Zombie 12-03-04, 11:28 AM	in 3.0 detect magic would eventually reveals some basic info about the item. Such as the level of power of the item (based on caster level used to make the item), and the school of the magic used to make it. If it still works that way, if he gets caught in the area of one of your detect magics, you might notice that the aura changed since last time, whilst he is supposed to have the same items. At this point he'll have to bluff his way out (and he better make it a good one, for his sake, cause those sense motive modifiers will depend on how believable his excuse is given the circumstances) There might be a bluff check involved sometimes. Since he is essentially bluffing. But I would consider that DC very low for him: you have no reason to suspect he is doing anything other that the items are kinda low in power compared to what you faced. I guess you all take turns taking items that you need? Ever happened yet that you suggested that he take an item because it's better than what he's supposed to have? This is one of the bluff check cases. Out of game, you might want to talk to your DM. I consider this kind of behavior, if done repeatedly, to be contrary to the spirit of the game and detrimental to other people having a good game.
Shard of Suzail 12-03-04, 12:47 PM	We had a similar situation in our group, though the rogue, who was in charge of the loot, simply hid some of the items for himself. When he eventually died, his items were totalled up and it was found that he had more in item value than the entire five other players combined. The usual gm had not really considered it an issue and the only person to query it was a temporary gm who liked to have copies of the players sheets. It is a frustrating situation to be in, since pc's cannot correct the issue if they dont know about it. I would say that such actions are non heroic and thus are not fit for a player character. As a gm, i would put a stop to such actions. In all my gaming experience, it is never the evil characters that cause party disharmony or downfall, it is the selfish ones.
Radagast 12-03-04, 01:02 PM	Kill him... and his character, too. Actually, try telling him out of character that his actions are NOT "cool" and he is ruining the fun for other people. If he is a stubborn jerk or one of those "moral relativists" who think that stealing is only stealing when it happens TO them (and not when they do it to others) or some other silliness, take it to the GM. If the group cannot get him to change, kick him out of the group. It is not worth wasting D&D sessions being abused by some egotistical scum who gets his jollies stealing from his friends and abusing them. As for in-character defenses, now that the party knows, his character should suffer an appropriate punishment. If you're in a city, maybe he could spend many happy years rotting in prison. Or, chop off a hand - or both! If you're in the wild, take the law into your hands and repay him for his "kindness" and "trust" in whatever creative ways come to mind. Does this player have a habit of playing characters that screw the party? If so, he needs to be talked to as mentioned above, and if he's too stupid, selfish, or evil to get the point, kick him out. In party defenses: have multiple copies of the party's goods, don't trust one person to keep track of the goods unless they are honest without question (in AND out of character). Using Detect Magic to hunt for hidden loot is a good trick. Also, keep track of the Thief when looting bodies since he'll probably rush to a body as soon as he can, try to pocket everything, and then claim that there was nothing there. That would require a Bluff check with a pretty huge penalty, IMHO. I hate Thieves.
Mikal 12-03-04, 01:45 PM	Agreed!!! Also, I am assuming the DM knows the PC is stealing treasure from the group. If the DM is aware of it, he should allocate less treasure (i.e. gold) to the thief to compensate for the stolen items. Actually, that's quite lame. Why should the DM metagame punish a PC who steals? The PC's should handle it IC. the other suggestions (sense motive, discern lies, the fact that all items do NOT look alike) are good ideas. The DM 'allocating' less gold isn't. Hell, a simple appraisal check should so that somethings fishy.
Mikal 12-03-04, 01:49 PM	It is a frustrating situation to be in, since pc's cannot correct the issue if they dont know about it. I would say that such actions are non heroic and thus are not fit for a player character. As a gm, i would put a stop to such actions. In all my gaming experience, it is never the evil characters that cause party disharmony or downfall, it is the selfish ones. While I agree it's the selfish players that cause party disharmony and self destruction, I must totally disagree on whether or not an action is fit for a player character. PC's come from all molds, some are heroic, some are selfish, some are good, some are evil. By pigeonholing it you become selfish yourself, by not letting others play what they enjoy. There are ways to have a selfish character without causing the destruction of the group. A person who steals from other PC's isn't that way. And neither is forcing the PC's to fit into the narrow mold you wish them to act in.
orionm42 12-03-04, 02:05 PM	Actually, that's quite lame. As I read the original post, the player has tried to handle it “in game” and it hasn’t worked. If that is the case, the DM should step in. If the thief knows he will be allocated less treasure each time he steals from the group, he won’t do it again…. Also, the DM has an obligation to keep the game running smoothly. It shouldn’t be necessary to have to make appraise (or other) checks every time the PCs earn treasure. It is a waste of time and does nothing but foster resentment in the other players, who never know if they are getting their fair share. Additionally, why should the other characters in the group suffer just because a fellow player created a character who can successfully bluff the other PCs in game? If that were the case, characters with high charisma would end up with much more wealth than fighters or other character with low wisdom. “Lame” or not, the DM should step in for the good of the game!!
fireangel37 12-03-04, 02:07 PM	When one player is adopting a style of play that ruins the fun of a significant portion of the group, then the group has every right to do something about it OOC. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If the thief is skimming one coin in ten that the part finds, that's probably just good RP (if it's the character). If he's skimming eight of ten, it's probably something a lot worse.
jasper 12-03-04, 02:08 PM	Bs D&D is a team player game. The pcs against the monsters the Dm comes up with. What movie was it the football team decide the quarter back needed a lesson and for a few plays let the other side through. Let the monsters through the line to chew on the thief. In most games I gamed with we came up with 1 rule a few suggestions. Rule The treasure sheet is open to everyone and who ever is taking notes must write clearly. Suggestion. Stealing from the party is bad. It will get your pc killed when we find out because sooner or later either the dice will be against you or you will slip up and let other pc know. Suggestion. if you must steal from the party keep don't take high value items. We don't care for the odd ring or gp but no magic.
Mikal 12-03-04, 02:11 PM	As I read the original post, the player has tried to handle it “in game” and it hasn’t worked. If that is the case, the DM should step in. If the thief knows he will be allocated less treasure each time he steals from the group, he won’t do it again…. Also, the DM has an obligation to keep the game running smoothly. It shouldn’t be necessary to have to make appraise (or other) checks every time the PCs earn treasure. It is a waste of time and does nothing but foster resentment in the other players, who never know if they are getting their fair share. Additionally, why should the other characters in the group suffer just because a fellow player created a character who can successfully bluff the other PCs in game? If that were the case, characters with high charisma would end up with much more wealth than fighters or other character with low wisdom. “Lame” or not, the DM should step in for the good of the game!! Actually, the OP might have tried to handle it IC, but handled it rather badly, not using the full array of Ic possibilities, possiblities we've hopefully given him in this thread. Metagaming is a childish response to a childish reaction. Or, in a sense, two wrongs. And we all know two wrongs don't make a right. And smart PC's SHOULD use appraisal and other checks when getting magic items and gold and other types of things! Any PC who accepts something at face value should either do it for IC reasons (very trusting), or because they're not to bright in the head. This isn't a computer game. Sometimes that gold piece isn't really a gold piece,and sometimes that +2 silver ring you gave the mage to be ID'ed isn't always a +2 silver ring. In other words, if the PC's can't handle it IC, then the DM shouldn't step in. That's not the DM's job.
Thoronmir 12-03-04, 02:30 PM	Where I live we have a saying … “Pigs get fat; hogs get slaughtered.” I’m going to assume that the offending player’s actions are in keeping with his character’s background, concept, and alignment. Because if they’re not, the DM should have stepped in long ago. Until the thief slips up in-game, the party has no reason to doubt him. Slipping up would include trying to convince the party that the silver ring they just found somehow turned into a bronze ring during the identification process. If your DM maintains that all magic items of the same type (i.e., all rings) look identically alike, then your problems may run deeper than a pilfering party member. There’s nothing wrong with a little larceny among friends. When I played my NE Bandit (Ranger/Rogue), I pocketed more than my share of loot when scouting ahead. But I never forgot that my continued survival was very much dependent on the other members of the party. So I made sure that most of what I stole made it into the right hands at the right moment. You see, it’s not that I didn’t want the Wizard to get the Wand of Fire I found … I just wanted to make sure he knew that I gave it to him. Pretty soon, the other players quit grumbling whenever I “shorted” the treasure count since they knew (as players) I wasn’t keeping everything. But you describe a more insidious situation. My character may have plenty of reasons to continue adventuring with the thief, but, as a player, I’d have no reason to continue playing with him.
orionm42 12-03-04, 02:41 PM	And smart PC's SHOULD use appraisal and other checks when getting magic items and gold and other types of things! That reinforces my point...a "dumb" fighter with low wisdom / intelligence is unable to succeed at these checks and will end up with nothing!!! From the fighter's perspective, this situation would be impossible to resolve in character. In other words, if the PC's can't handle it IC, then the DM shouldn't step in. That's not the DM's job. I disagree. One of the DM’s primary responsibilities is to help maintain balance in the group. If one character is significantly overpowered because of treasure he has stolen from the others, it will be impossible to design challenges that are both fair and fun for all involved. Without at least some degree of balance among the PCs, every encounter will either be too difficult for the underpowered character or too easy for the overpowered.
Mikal 12-03-04, 02:46 PM	That reinforces my point...a "dumb" fighter with low wisdom / intelligence is unable to succeed at these checks and will end up with nothing!!! From the fighter's perspective, this situation would be impossible to resolve in character. I disagree. One of the DM’s primary responsibilities is to help maintain balance in the group. If one character is significantly overpowered because of treasure he has stolen from the others, it will be impossible to design challenges that are both fair and fun for all involved. Without at least some degree of balance among the PCs, every encounter will either be too difficult for the underpowered character or too easy for the overpowered. How hard is it for a dumb fighter to go "'me give you gold ring, you come back with silver ring... you steal from fighter! fighter smash!' *power attack*"? The DM's primary responsibility is to maintain balance in the game world, and provide guidelines for character growth, i.e. giving out magic items/spells/gold/xp, allowing/disallowing certain PrC's, and the like. If another PC is an evil PC (and anyone who does this is going to be evil, which is something the DM should enforce), then thats a PC matter, not a DM matter. Hell, a divination by a cleric or a good spot check or even suspicious people WATCHING the mage would put an end to this.
Dragon Eye 12-03-04, 02:48 PM	Thanks for all the input. Coming from playing computer games (and being relatively new to role-playing), it never occurred to me that magical item would, of course, look different. Also, in regards to a sense motive check, how can know to roll for one without metagaming? I mean, theoretically the characters are always doing this in game, so how can you justify calling for a roll in this particular instance as opposed to rolling every time someone tells you something? My concern here is that the other player will say something like "How would you have know to make a sense motive check?" One thing I really hate is metagaming, and I always try to justify my actions with something in game. Thanks again for all your help.
ShadowDragon8685 12-03-04, 02:49 PM	In other words, if the PC's can't handle it IC, then the DM shouldn't step in. That's not the DM's job. Incorrect. The DM's job is to see to it that the players have fun. If one player is having fun, at the expense of the others... In MMORPGs, we have a term for this person. It's called a "Griefer." He may be Griefing by PKing, he may be Griefing by stealing all your kills or whatever, but he tends to find his access to the game terminated. The DM is far better off arranging for the problem player to have an 'accident,' in much the way the mob arranges for people to have accidents, and inviting him not to come back, than to watch the other players get upset and stop having fun.
Mikal 12-03-04, 02:51 PM	edited because double posting bad!
Mikal 12-03-04, 02:52 PM	Thanks for all the input. Coming from playing computer games (and being relatively new to role-playing), it never occurred to me that magical item would, of course, look different. Also, in regards to a sense motive check, how can know to roll for one without metagaming? I mean, theoretically the characters are always doing this in game, so how can you justify calling for a roll in this particular instance as opposed to rolling every time someone tells you something? My concern here is that the other player will say something like "How would you have know to make a sense motive check?" One thing I really hate is metagaming, and I always try to justify my actions with something in game. Thanks again for all your help. Ah, well the sense motive check is simple. The same way you get spot and listen checks for things sneaking in. The DM rolls it secretly. :D Incorrect. The DM's job is to see to it that the players have fun. If one player is having fun, at the expense of the others... In MMORPGs, we have a term for this person. It's called a "Griefer." He may be Griefing by PKing, he may be Griefing by stealing all your kills or whatever, but he tends to find his access to the game terminated. The DM is far better off arranging for the problem player to have an 'accident,' in much the way the mob arranges for people to have accidents, and inviting him not to come back, than to watch the other players get upset and stop having fun. If it gets bad enough that all the players aren't having fun, then yes the DM should step in and kick the guy out. But it's not THAT bad yet. Especially when it's easily handled IC. (please see the OP post about not realizing magic items looking different ;) )
Demon Lightfoot 12-03-04, 03:31 PM	1) How do you actually know that he's doing this? How could you possibly know that one item is a +2 ring, a +1 ring, or a +6 4-handled moss-covered family credenza? 2) It is not the DM's place to "do" a damn thing about it. The DM ain't a cop, your Mommy or Drill Sergeant. 3) D&D is not a "team game"; it's a role-playing game; it's not a Socialist society or sports team nor is it a Communist cell. The PCs are not a hive mind organism. People in close proximity frequently come into conflict with each other, whether they're friends or no.
danielinthewolvesden 12-03-04, 03:44 PM	When one player is adopting a style of play that ruins the fun of a significant portion of the group, then the group has every right to do something about it OOC. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If the thief is skimming one coin in ten that the part finds, that's probably just good RP (if it's the character). If he's skimming eight of ten, it's probably something a lot worse. Right. This needs to be handled OOC. Don't try it IC. Just explain to the DM that this style of playing is robbing YOU as a player of Fun- which is what a game is all about. And of course- that is a very Evil act so that PC will start being picked up as Evil. Many DM's have a house rule- "No EVILS'- I strongly recommend it. If you must do it IC- remember also that "detect magic" (and there should be another PC in the group with Detect Magic) will also give you aura power and school. Just have the cleric tell the DM by a note that he is concentrating another couple of rounds when he detects. When the loot doesn't match, then catch him in his sleep, pin him, strip him naked, and eject him from the party. But honestly- it is going to be better to handle this OOC- that kind of player isn't a good player to be at the same table with. It is indeed the DM part to "do " something about it. It is the DM's "job" to provide a pleasant & challenging roleplaying nite for all. If there was someone that never let another player get in a word edgewise, or had a terrible BO problem, or was abusive- then the DM should do something. This is similar. Unless you think it's Ok for a player to play an assassin; and what this killer does is gather up a group, wander with them for a bit, kill them all in their sleep, loot then bury the bodies, then go to another town for more. Should a player be allowed to do this to his party every nite, so he's the only one that gets loot or levels? But I don't know why the DM has let this get so far- the point that Phrennzy so wisely pointed out should have been damn obvious years ago.
Mikal 12-03-04, 04:04 PM	And of course- that is a very Evil act so that PC will start being picked up as Evil. Many DM's have a house rule- "No EVILS'- I strongly recommend it. But honestly- it is going to be better to handle this OOC- that kind of player isn't a good player to be at the same table with. Unless you think it's Ok for a plyaer to play an assassin, and what this killer does is gather up a group, wander with them for a bit, kill them all in their sleep, loot then bury the bodies, then go to another town for more. Should a player be allowed to do this to his party every nite, so he's the only one that gets loot or levels? You say that in one part that of a PC isn't having fun, he should go to the DM and make him stop the other player. Yet... by doing so you force the DM to infringe on the fun the other player is having. You can't have it both ways. The DM's place isn't to play daddy to the group. There is no reason for the DM to come into this heavy handed! No reason whatsoever. This is a easily handled IC situation. If the PC's steal from an npc that the DM made and like, should the DM come in and give the PC's less gold in a later encounter? No! And this is a similiar situation. The PC made the choice, and the PC needs to live with the consequences, not the player. Yes the PC should be given an evil alignment for doing it, but the house rule 'no evil' is a stupid one, and something I'm not even going to debate because of it's stupidity. Same for the assassin example, since that is comparing apples to oranges, or in this case greed verses sociopathic tendancies.
orionm42 12-03-04, 04:32 PM	The DM's place isn't to play daddy to the group. There is no reason for the DM to come into this heavy handed! No reason whatsoever. Like it or not, the DM is responsible for maintaining balance between the PCs. That is one of the reasons the DMG includes PC wealth guidelines. And, like it or not, the DM ALWAYS controls treasure distribution in some way. As an example, how much fun would it be to play a sorcerer if every treasure the group encounters includes only weapons or other items used primarily by the fighting classes? Answer…none! The DM must control both the composition and distribution of treasure to make the game fun for everyone. If the PC insists on stealing all the “good stuff,” it will be difficult for the DM to control treasure distribution without directly reducing the thieving character’s share of the booty. He could populate rewards with gender/alignment/race specific items (e.g. a ring usable only by barbarians)…but everyone knows that sucks!! The more effective ways to handle this situation are to talk to the player out of character or to overtly control the character’s share of rewards. This is a easily handled IC situation. How can the fighter handle it if the DM chooses to make magic items look unremarkable. The fighter cannot cast detection spells and does not have the intelligence/wisdom to succeed at checks. If the PC's steal from an npc that the DM made and like, should the DM come in and give the PC's less gold in a later encounter? No! And this is a similar situation. I agree that the PCs should not get less gold in a later encounter, AS LONG AS the amount of the gold stolen is level appropriate. If a group of second level characters manages to steal enough gold to purchase a magic item that is inappropriate for their level, the DM must adjust...for his own mistake in this case!!! However, the situation described is not similar. The OP noted the PC "constantly" steals higher value items. This is not an isolated DM error, it is a persistent problem with one character that is fostering resentment, decreasing the enjoyment the other players get from the game, and creating inequity which will significantly impact game play.
Mikal 12-03-04, 04:40 PM	Like it or not, the DM is responsible for maintaining balance between the PCs. That is one of the reasons the DMG includes PC wealth guidelines. And, like it or not, the DM ALWAYS controls treasure distribution in some way. As an example, how much fun would it be to play a sorcerer if every treasure the group encounters includes only weapons or other items used primarily by the fighting classes? Answer…none! The DM must control both the composition and distribution of treasure to make the game fun for everyone. Yes.. and the DM in this case has done that. Once the PC's get the equipment, they can do whatever the hell they want with it! And if the PC's decide to take said items by hook or by crook, it's the PC's responsibility, not the DM's, to rectify it. The more effective ways to handle this situation are to talk to the player out of character or to overtly control the character’s share of rewards. Actually the most effective way is to have the PC's kick the offending PC's butt. I mean, seriously, it's not that hard. How can the fighter handle it if the DM chooses to make magic items look unremarkable. The fighter cannot cast detection spells and does not have the intelligence/wisdom to succeed at checks. First of all, the DM never chose to make magic items look unremarkable. It sounds like they're somewhat new players from the OP, and thus the PLAYERS thought all similiar magic items looked alike. I'm sure now that they realize differently they're going to notice what the items they have look like. Again, there is no reason for DM involvement. Simply following the mage as he goes to 'ID' the items can prevent him from palming it! However, the situation described is not similar. The OP noted the PC "constantly" steals higher value items. This is not an isolated DM error, it is a persistent problem with one character that is fostering resentment, decreasing the enjoyment the other players get from the game, and creating inequity which will significantly impact game play. You're right, in that its a persistent problem. But it's one that is easily handled without metagaming influence from a DM.
orionm42 12-03-04, 05:04 PM	Simply following the mage as he goes to 'ID' the items can prevent him from palming it! *Mage (with fighter looking right at the newly found ring) casts identify* Mage: “Krusk….look over there at that naked female half-orc.” *Mage uses Bluff* *Fighter fails Sense Motive…looks away* *Mage pockets +2 ring and switches for +1 ring* And so it goes….eventually, the fighter is out of balance, can’t hold his own in battles involving the mage…dead fighter (followed shortly thereafter by dead mage, who gets stomped by a giant because he had no one to defend his thieving ass :D !!)
Mikal 12-03-04, 05:08 PM	*Mage (with fighter looking right at the newly found ring) casts identify* Mage: “Krusk….look over there at that naked female half-orc.” *Mage uses Bluff* *Fighter fails Sense Motive…looks away* *Mage pockets +2 ring and switches for +1 ring* And so it goes….eventually, the fighter is out of balance, can’t hold his own in battles involving the mage…dead fighter (followed shortly thereafter by dead mage, who gets stomped by a giant because he had no one to defend his thieving ass :D !!) yeah, except bluff doesn't work like that unless you're in combat, in which case Krusk get's to add his BaB to his SM roll. Plus the mage would still need a slight of hand roll vs. Krusks spot check, plus the fact that the other party members getting boned can help Krusk spot the ring (or vice versa, if someone actually has a good sense motive/spot roll, Krusk can try and help them.) Seriously, the PC's can easily handle this now that they know all their IC options!
orionm42 12-03-04, 05:40 PM	The point isn’t whether or not you can resolve the situation in game with a series of checks. You can! The point is “why should the other characters have to make a series of successful checks simply to earn their fair share of treasure?” If you were one of the other members of the group, I think you would tire quickly of having to roll successfully just to receive a reward you already earned. Recall that rewards include experience points and treasure. Once the bad guy is dead, the fighter should get an equitable portion of the spoils. He shouldn’t have to go through another series of checks after every battle just to get what he rightfully earned in the fight. Edit: P.S. Should the thieving character earn experience points for successfully stealing from his cohorts?? It's the DM's job to set up level appropriate challenges for the players..the players shouldn't be challenging each other!!!
Mikal 12-03-04, 05:57 PM	The point isn’t whether or not you can resolve the situation in game with a series of checks. You can! The point is “why should the other characters have to make a series of successful checks simply to earn their fair share of treasure?” If you were one of the other members of the group, I think you would tire quickly of having to roll successfully just to receive a reward you already earned. Because the PC is using his skills to get more then his fair share, and isn't cheating to do it. Thus making it a IC problem, not OOC problem. And after the first time someone cheats me, if I'm not playing a 'chop off the hand' type of character, i definatly wouldnt trust him with any items after wards. Recall that rewards include experience points and treasure. Once the bad guy is dead, the fighter should get an equitable portion of the spoils. He shouldn’t have to go through another series of checks after every battle just to get what he rightfully earned in the fight. no need to recall anything. if the pc doesnt want his stuff stolen, then he needs to take steps to keep it that way. simple. Edit: P.S. Should the thieving character earn experience points for successfully stealing from his cohorts?? It's the DM's job to set up level appropriate challenges for the players..the players shouldn't be challenging each other!!! if the thief is acting IC, and is able to dupe the others, then technically, yes, once opposed rolls become involved! he's overcoming a challenge and getting a reward for it. (beating their SM/spot/whichever checks with his own)
orionm42 12-03-04, 06:06 PM	The situation is similar to PCs attacking each other in game. Example, the party sleeps while the chaotic evil barbarian takes watch. The barbarian flies into a rage and coup de grace’s the mage while the mage is sleeping. Is the barbarian “in character” when he does it? Yes. Should he do it? No. And should he earn a reward for doing it? Absolutely not!!
ShadowDragon8685 12-03-04, 06:11 PM	Yes. This thieving PC is falling into the catagory of a disruptive player. I will also note that when it comes to sense motive checks, etcetera, Metagaming is MANDATORY. If someone is ripping you off, even if you trust them completely, that calls for a Sense Motive check. Your character does not have to have a reason to use an automatic skill to detect when he's being ripped off. DM, start describing the rings and things. And make them different. An elvish Ring of Protection +2 is going to look VERY different from a Dwarvish Ring of Protection +1. The only similarity is that they will go around someone's finger. Even a dimwitted barbarian can tell when someone's trying to substitute two vastly different objects. Oh, and D&D may not nessessarily be socialist, but adventuring parties ARE. By their nature. If you're not playing Marxball, you're probably an Evilboy. In which case it's time for the Paladin to play Full-Court Jungleball. Or, here's a hint, have the warriors simply notice that the mage is getting better, and that they are not. Put 2 + 2 together (an INT check Vs. DC4,) and take the mother to task for it. However, this kind of thing does not need an IC soloution. One player who's placing his own glee at ripping the party off over the fun of his friends needs to get Red October'd. Kick him out of the game, a poisonous gecko bit him in the night - oh damn, what a shame, you failed your Fort roll. Mike the thieving Git died in the night. On his corpse you find a metric buttload of stuff he stole from you guys.
Mikal 12-03-04, 06:14 PM	However, this kind of thing does not need an IC soloution. One player who's placing his own glee at ripping the party off over the fun of his friends needs to get Red October'd. Kick him out of the game, a poisonous gecko bit him in the night - oh damn, what a shame, you failed your Fort roll. Mike the thieving Git died in the night. On his corpse you find a metric buttload of stuff he stole from you guys. yup, cause acting childish and using metagaming always solves the problem :rolleyes:
webgear68 12-03-04, 06:37 PM	i agree with mikal's last statement my dm had a game played with all drow characters and unfortunatly he was the only male in the group. thus always by in character rule standards of Drow go last becuase of being in game inferior. so he would "steal" items from the other players and the other players knew of this and had to make opposed rolls to his pick pocket skill. one way is to do this if it is alignment appropriate, or race appropriate. and if you do play a evil game then the FINAL choice could be to kill his character and then true resurect him so no lose to him and if contiunes the kill him and either don't resurect him or raise dead. although this is harsh it can be a useful tool to keep a "rogue" in line
ShadowDragon8685 12-03-04, 07:00 PM	Mikal, we play these games to have fun. If the actions of one player are causing the rest of them to not have fun - and it's clear that this player isen't interested in playing half-court Playgroundball, then it's time to A: Boot him from the campaign, or B: Play Jungleball. Metagame the hell out of him if you have to. I do know that the fun of the group at large is more importent than the fun of one Griefer.
Weiser_Cain 12-03-04, 07:10 PM	I'd let him continue to steal he'll get whats comming to him eventualy. I don't like the idea of being forced to play your character the way others want you to.
Kainy 12-03-04, 07:23 PM	I'd conveniently be very hazy with him as to when the gaming meetings are. Or just not tell him at all. Seriously, one player being a CE, or at least NE bastard in a party that wants to work together isn't fun. Playing out the revenge once he's found out could be, but that's my playing style, not theirs. It's very different for a majority to ask something of a minority than the other way around.
ShadowDragon8685 12-03-04, 07:52 PM	Arrange things so that he gets found out. And found out big. And let the players do their October Revoloution on him, In Character. You know, Hold Person, followed by a brutal beating. Or a hanging, depending on how mad the other players are. Then tell him to make someone who works better with others next time. Or suffer the same fate.
danielinthewolvesden 12-03-04, 08:02 PM	You say that in one part that of a PC isn't having fun, he should go to the DM and make him stop the other player. Yet... by doing so you force the DM to infringe on the fun the other player is having. You can't have it both ways. The DM's place isn't to play daddy to the group. . If indeed, it was one player having extra fun at the expense of one player- then maybe you'd have a point. But in this case, it is one player hogging extra fun at the expense of ALL the other players. Not fair, and thus it's cheating. No one player has the right to detract from the game playing experience of all the rest of the group. Talk to the DM, make sure the other players are with you, and ask the DM to make him stop- or boot him.
True Archon 12-03-04, 08:44 PM	LOL, the answer for an IC solution has already been made. DM: "You've killed the band of trolls and have finished looting the bodies. Detect magic reveals three magical items: a ring, a sword, and an amulet. What do you do? Player 1: "Cool! A ring, a sword, and an amulet! What do they look like?" That simple question alone solves the problem- What do they look like? When the PC returns with the changed item, as DM, I would roll a secret Spot check with the DC randomly determined by the PC's level of attention of the initial item and the item that was switched. A successful Spot reveals that the PC notices that the item doesn't appear to be the same item given. A smart player will immediately question the mage, and then opposing Bluff and Sense Motive checks could result. In some situations, like when the item has drastically changed in appearance, I'd probably foregoe any Spot checks altogether. Out of campaign, it is bad form, but if the group doesn't want to solve it OoC, alternative measures need to be found.
Vaelan 12-05-04, 05:39 AM	Metagame the hell out of him if you have to. This isn't the mature response. This is the response of a child with a fragile ego and no respect for the game or the other players. This is far worse than stealing from the party and any DM worth their dice would not tolerate it. In-game actions should have in-game consequences. If you break the rules and start metagaming, you are the one who has ruined the game. If there really is nothing more important to you than who gets the +2 ring, I'm quite glad you don't play in my game.
Ut-Napishtim 12-05-04, 06:43 AM	Heh, one time a CE PC in one of my games was the first to explore the treasue hoarde. It was a Black Dragon lair that was underwater, and nobody really wanted to swim down there for fear there might be something else in there. So the CE PC starts collecing up stuff to bring it back up for the group to split up and I said: Hold on there, man. You're going to have to at least pocket a few coins for yourself or you're alignment is going to take a hit. He didn't need much encouragement though, and quickly snatched up a couple potions and a pearl necklace as his "finders fee" without the others knowing. Being evil cuts both ways in my game. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be tolerated if discoverd. In fact theiving PC's are a big pet peeve of mine when I play. It's not really right, but before my character even finds out about it as a player I start conveniently being absent when he needs help, using up all my healing spells on everyone else before I get to him, forgetting to wake him up for his watch shift, and all sorts of other passive-agressive "ooops, my bad" type things. If the whole party is doing it, the dude could get really lonely and really dead really fast without the PC's ever lifting a finger against him. It's usually pretty easy to pull off too since I usually play LN, and most "party thief's" are Chaoic. Oh, you're a lone wolf with a problem with authority? Well then you can obviously take care of yourself, I save my efforts for folks that are contributing members of society. But you need healing you say? Sorry, just used the last one on the Wizard, but hey - you're a lone wolf, I'm sure you can work it out on your own.
Imrallion 12-05-04, 07:31 AM	A large part of this discussion is about one player's fun affecting the fun of others... if one player takes more than his share of the loot, he's spoiling the fun for all the other characters and should be severely punished (banished from the group, kill his character, DM should interfere... etc). And there I've always thought that there are many more ways to have fun in a roleplaying game then by getting your exact share of the treasure... silly me... Imrallion.
danielinthewolvesden 12-05-04, 02:39 PM	Actually, Ut-Napishtim makes a point- a small amount of insignificant pilfering to stay in character isn't so bad. After all, getting 10000gps instead of 10200 gps really won't make or break a PC. Thus, really it shouldn't effect 'fun" much and should be tolerated. It is when your PC isn't getting enough loot for his very survival- that's where its gets unfair. That usually comes when 'the cream" is skimmed off the top of the magic, as in our case here. Even I "stole" once- i was playing a marginally evil PC, and I found an evil "relic" of my god. I knew the party would simply have it destroyed (they didn't know I worshipped Mask), so I nabbed it. However, note that this wasn't taking anything from any other party member.
Ut-Napishtim 12-05-04, 04:25 PM	Yeah, that's a good point. Now that I think back on it I never really cared if someone pocketed a few extra coins because their character was untrustworthy and they were just playing it out. The times it has bothered me is when that character takes like half or more of the treasure (including magic item values) and leaves the other half to be split five-ways. That really sucks because four people are getting 100 gp out of the 1,000, while one is getting 600. I was actually in a game one time with an idiot DM that had one monster in a group carrying the copper, one carrying the silver, etc. Anyway, the theif happened to search the one with the gold, and got about 200 pieces IIRC. The rest of us got to split 30 coppers, and 80 silver. I guess what the threshold for it is really depends on your group.
danielinthewolvesden 12-05-04, 10:26 PM	This isn't the mature response. This is the response of a child with a fragile ego and no respect for the game or the other players. This is far worse than stealing from the party and any DM worth their dice would not tolerate it. In-game actions should have in-game consequences. If you break the rules and start metagaming, you are the one who has ruined the game. If there really is nothing more important to you than who gets the +2 ring, I'm quite glad you don't play in my game. Well, since the stealing Player involved started the metagaming & cheating by breaking the unwritten rule ( "it's a game, thus we want everyone to play, thus we aren't going to say NO to your PC to start") then he gets what he deserves. The immatureplayer is the one that's saying "hey, I am so much more valuable as a player than you are, I get to assign my PC 5 times his share of the loot". :rolleyes: Then, if it was only one +2 ring, that's one thing- but if it's also the flaming sword, the cloak of resistance+3, the boots of springing & striding, etc etc..... see after a while, the lack of good magic will start meaning the other players will fail that save, or get that crit confirmed when they wouldn't have- and then they die. So, in a way, a player who is doing stealing at this level is really killing the rest of the party- just very slowly. :nonono:
d00m_b4b00n 12-05-04, 11:21 PM	There is a easy solution to this problem: The next time the thieving Pc palms something; roll a die behind the screen, then wince, then hand him a pre-prepared note saying... "DO NOT REVEAL THIS TO THE OTHER PLAYERS. When you hand back the item <Character X> looks at you very suspiciously. They examine the item themselves, jam it back into their pack with a 'humpf!' and stomp off to the rest of the party. HAND ME BACK THIS NOTE" When he has read this, hand <Character X> a note saying... "DO NOT REVEAL THIS TO THE OTHER PLAYERS. Look at <Thieving Pc> suspiciously and then quickly look at the other players. Write 'Athelwood' on the back of your character sheet in very small letters and keep it secret. HAND ME BACK THIS NOTE" After this the thief should moderate his theft, roll sense motive vs. bluff when-ever he takes more than twice his share or something mean. If he cuts it out all together, have some good high lvl cleric later make veiled remarks about 'turning over a new leaf' and give him a knowing look, then throw him an nice item or a cool/funny opportunity. ALSO...Your players will lap this stuff up, there's nothing like secret notes to make people THINK about what is happening and respect your deviousness as a GM
Midnight Lurker 12-06-04, 08:48 AM	There's two schools of thought on this, depending on your style of play. If you expect the party to get along and work for the common goal with no internal strife, then you want the DM to step in and "solve" the bad PC. If you play where the PCs don't always get along, and have to work out their personal problems at the same time they're working out the BBEG problems, then you expect to solve this in-game. Personally, I play the second type. Why play a thief if you're not allowed to steal? Or if you're only allowed to steal from designated "bad guys" or when your DM gives you permission? Direct intervention is not the DM's job. There are no giant hands coming out of the sky to spank the thief, or little bald men in red robes to give hints. You, and your DM, can be a little more creative than that to solve the problem. Just think about how YOU would deal with a "friend" that was stealing from you, then translate it into how your character would deal with an ally stealing from them. There's nothing wrong with the "everyone gets along" style of play. But make sure that all the players want to play like that, or know that's how it's being done.
danielinthewolvesden 12-06-04, 11:40 AM	Personally, I play the second type. Why play a thief if you're not allowed to steal? Or if you're only allowed to steal from designated "bad guys" or when your DM gives you permission? Direct intervention is not the DM's job. There are no giant hands coming out of the sky to spank the thief, or little bald men in red robes to give hints. You, and your DM, can be a little more creative than that to solve the problem. Just think about how YOU would deal with a "friend" that was stealing from you, then translate it into how your character would deal with an ally stealing from them. Why play a Killer if you can't kill your fellow PCs when the whimsy strikes you? :rolleyes: And , indeed- "direct intervention" is exactly the "DM's Job"- he is there to provide an enjoyable gaming experience for all. If one player is ruining it for the other players, he should do somthing about it. Just like a host for "game nite"- if one player is being a loud-mouthed abusive boor, being argumentative and ruining the fun for all the rest- the host needs to do something. But in a way you're right- the DM shouldn't intervene in game- just like the host shouldn't come and move back the boor's parcheesi pieces or something. A rude abusive selfish "non team playing" player who ruins the game for all needs to be dealt with OOC. The DM and or the Host needs to explain that sort of behaviour is not polite, is disruptive and won't be tolerated. There are no "giant hands" but there's the bounds of polite behaviour, good sportsmanship, and allowing all to have fun- and then there's the door for those who don't want to play within those bounds. :rant:
Kyy'Dakh 12-06-04, 01:02 PM	My take: Question #1: Are all the players still having fun? If yes, ignore the situation: It's not a problem. Question #2: What in-game solutions are there? Answer #1: Describe the magic items when the party collects them. Items that change shape or color after "Identification" should provide a hefty bonus to Sense Motive checks. Answer #2: Let players roll sense motive checks each time. One of them is bound to get a natural 20 sooner or later. Answer #3: If the characters have reason to be suspicious, let some of the characters support another with something like an "Aid another" action for his sense motive check, pointing out every quiver in his voice and every nervous gesture. Question #3: If in-game solutions fail, what's the best (i.e. noninvasive)metagaming solution? Answer #1: Roll bluff and sense motive checks for the chars, behind your screen. Claim one of them got a natural 20 and/or that the thief got a 1, or some other result that ends up exposing the lie. Try to think of good circumstance modifiers if necessary.
Shard of Suzail 12-06-04, 04:48 PM	Just to clarify, natural 20 on a sense motive isnt like a natural 20 to hit. It is possible to roll a natural 20 on a skill roll and fail, especially if its an opposed roll. Thus, a really good thief (and that means a player character rogue) really isnt at too much risk when it comes to endless rolls. Knowing the usual sense motive amonst other characters, its no surprise that a rogue player will be able to steal from them constantly without fear of discovery, even when his rolls are poor. *** Anyway, as to all this "should the gm intervene", well, he certainly should. After all, he is the one blamed if others dont have fun. I was running a d20 game recently (not d and d) and basically had a situation where everyone wanted to do things, but the ranking leader of the party was overly cautious. It came to the point where the other players became frustrated and my only option was to remove the command from the player concerned and give it to someone else. As it was, the game didnt allow an opportunity for this to take place realistically, so i had a situation where one player was causing other players, though not intentionally, to hate my game. The only action i could take was to shelve the game. I didnt want my players to walk out on me and damage my reputation as a gm because of something a player was, quite legally, doing. The same applies here. It is a terrible thing for a gm to make a fun game with inteersting loot only to find that players complain that "there`s no good loot in this game" or "why are we adventuring when all we get is a plus one ring?" The gm may well know full well that there was better stuff in the game, but that the party thief has made it his lifes work to pocket it all and sell it on the quiet. As it mentioned earlier, the only way we discovered this had happened to us was when a player briefly became gm and had a look at everyones sheets. Our thief had, as again mentioned before, kit valued at more than the five other players items combined. He had better equipment than the whole party added together! Not one of us even had a hint of this until we, via "metagaming", discovered it. His rings alone were double the strength of anything used by another character. Characters died because of that. Ironically, the rogue died because of it too. It got to the point where his AC was so good and his saves so high that he openly took on the bad guy on his own and started showing off. He was, hilariously, killed with magic missiles. The frightening thing was, that he very nearly did kill the bad guy on his own and would have done if magic missile didnt exist. He now plays a monk with vow of poverty. Regrettably, he is still tougher than any of us. Cest la vie. *** Still, it goes to show that a clever player, with good rogue skills and access to email, can rob a party blind to the point where noone is any the wiser and they instead blame the GM for running a loot poor and uninteresting game. He had some items that we had never even seen described over the table, so clever was he with regards to setting things up with the gm. Potentially, he was more of a bad guy than many of the villains we faced, in the grand scheme of things. The upshot of all this? Everyone has abandoned the game and is playing elsewhere. An interesting fact that this one player has effectively destroyed this other gm's game and my d20 other system game, all by doing things that are perfectly "legal" in game but which go contrary to the spirit of the game itself and party enjoyment. I`m thankful that i shut my game down before people started to associate it with the way i wrote my scenarios. The other gm was not so lucky and has suffered considerably because of it.
eudas 12-06-04, 05:04 PM	The point isn’t whether or not you can resolve the situation in game with a series of checks. You can! The point is “why should the other characters have to make a series of successful checks simply to earn their fair share of treasure?” If you were one of the other members of the group, I think you would tire quickly of having to roll successfully just to receive a reward you already earned. Recall that rewards include experience points and treasure. Once the bad guy is dead, the fighter should get an equitable portion of the spoils. He shouldn’t have to go through another series of checks after every battle just to get what he rightfully earned in the fight. Edit: P.S. Should the thieving character earn experience points for successfully stealing from his cohorts?? It's the DM's job to set up level appropriate challenges for the players..the players shouldn't be challenging each other!!! why can't the PC's get their fair share of treasure without having to kill the bad guys? why can't they just live in Pleasantville where everybody is perfectly happy and life is just neat-o peachy keen? because Candyland is boring. seriously, the wizard is playing perfectly fine. don't get me wrong: the other characters, if they catch on, in-game, should try to catch him and then deal with him. but this "i wear my heart on my sleeve and get my feelings hurt easily" crap needs to go. eudas
IceFractal 12-06-04, 05:15 PM	In game problems call for in game solutions. For instance, say the players are walking along, when a goblin leaps out of the shrubbery, grabs the magic orb that the mage was carrying to reveal the correct path, and runs toward a nearby cave. Now the players are supposed to follow the goblin into the cave, thus entering a cave exploration adventure, but instead the archer reacts fast, rolls well, and shoots down the goblin before it can escape. Now which of these ways would you prefer for the DM to handle the situation: 1) The goblin is killed, the party might see tracks leading to the cave, hear noises from it, or be told by a wandering sage that "there's treasure in that there cave." But if they choose to ignore it, they can move on past. 2) A magical bolt of lightning reanimates the goblin, and then a giant hand from the sky pushes the characters into the cave. Now most people would call option #2 railroading, and its equally railroading to just say "you can't steal" or "a lightning bolt kills you when you steal something". The stealing issue has to be resolved in game, but there are various ways to do that. The question is, how much stealing is going on? 1) Minor theft, skimming off a few gp, taking minor magical items, slightly misvalueing items. In this case, how is it really a problem? So the thief is a little richer than the rest of the party, so what? A character who saves their money will be richer than one who buys and drinks a lot of potions, or who spends it all gambling, and that doesn't really cause a game problem. 2) Major theft, significant power disparity between characters. You still don't have to metagame to solve this. The DM can have there be less treasure found on foes and more individually given out by grateful townsfolk, or whoever. Magic items that glow brightly and make noise are hard to steal, as are magic items with a unique and obvious effect, such as a ring of resistance that projects a glowing an illusion of a guardian spirit floating around the wearer. Have an NPC detective (really good sense motive) travel with the party for a while. There's lots of ways to deal with this without metagaming.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 07:16 PM	The DM should not intervene other than to judge if the thief is acting in character with his history and alignment, and the other players should NOT metagame the situation either (if I were DMing such a group, THAT is what I would be focusing my attention on). However, if/when players do find out they've been stolen from, they have the right to kick that character out of the party and recoup their lost treasure (or, if not possible, take their pound of flesh as their backgrounds and personality may dictate). I've played characters the epitomy or honor, and villianous types. And it would cheese me off a lot more to see a character's actions railroaded by out of game knowledge than to see them steal. Now, if every character they make steals I'm going to be annoyed. But if it's inline with that character then by all means, do it. And my character will react accordingly as he would based on his alignment, personality, etc if he finds out. That might be merciful, and that might be hanging time, it depends on the character. But people misunderstand this game so much. It's not about 'winning'. You CAN'T WIN. YOU WILL NEVER WIN IN D&D. EVER. So treasure is often incidental. The true accomplishment is not your levels or your damage per hit, it's how memorable a character you can make and what type of story you can help weave.
eRaz0r 12-06-04, 08:19 PM	How hard is it for a dumb fighter to go "'me give you gold ring, you come back with silver ring... you steal from fighter! fighter smash!' *power attack*"? And if a fighter is literally too stupid or foolish to be aware of this sort of short-changing, then that's just another example of why dumping all your attribute points into STR is a bad idea :) It's perfectly acceptable to me that a stupid fighter might miss a more subtle substitution. Of course, the silver comes back as gold thing is pretty obvious, but otherwise ..