Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sszvein 10-09-06, 07:47 PM	We're playing a drow game and the party was scouting the surface in prevision of a raid by a larger force. Unfortunatly we encountered...were-bear paladins and half of the party (me, a beguiler, and the priestess) were infected. As you might know, that'll eventually turn us into *lawful good* characters, and since we're lvl 4, the cleric cannot cure anyone, and since we're not in a civilised place, there's no temple close-by to get rid of it while there's still time. And afterward, I very much doubt there'll be a 12th lvl cleric around (nope, this isn't Forgotten Realms, we'll find those everywhere then). So is there someway to "cure" someone's alignment and change it to something else? Except perhaps by becoming a lich or something? Thanks if you can help, I'd really rather not play a drizztish LG beguiler.
Paxar 10-09-06, 08:02 PM	Invest in a helm of opposite alignment. If you ever fail your save, have your companions force you to wear it (somehow, good luck holding a werebear down). Instantly back to CE.
Sszvein 10-09-06, 08:11 PM	I'll look into as soon as we're out of nowhere-land, for now I hope my partymembers will consider that with my soon-to-be newfound morality, they'll stop me from warning those innocent villagers... Is there a spell that does the same effect?
Paxar 10-09-06, 08:14 PM	Not that I'm aware of, and if there was it'd probably be beyond the abilities of a level 4. The helm is actually a cursed item.
PhaedrusXY 10-09-06, 08:29 PM	:heehee Give your DM a high-five for me. Ah well, at least you're not all playing good-aligned scimitar-wielding drow. :rolleyes:
Sszvein 10-09-06, 08:44 PM	Certainly not, we're quite a "typical" drow party (with actually *two* female players), except that we agreed to ban backstabbing within the party so as not to destroy the game. (But not inter-house backstabbing, hehe.)
Toloran 10-09-06, 09:22 PM	Suggestion: Make your will saves =P If you can't get to a healer in time, you just have to get yourself more time. Keep in mind that you have up to 28 days or so (or whatever your games lunar cycle is) until a full moon and you transform. Basically, hurry as fast as you can to the nearest place that can cure you. The evening before the full moon (when you transform), make sure you get tied up, restrained, or otherwise kept from going on the loose during your transformation. Then right before you transform (before you have to make your willsave to prevent changing alignment), have Owl's Wisdom cast on you (and anyone else who is infected). That should should help with the DC 15 will save. "Hopefully" you'll make the save and then you have a whole lunar cycle to make it to wherever you are going. Its important to avoid combat at all costs (specifically avoid being damaged) because that will trigger a transformation too.
Zero Knight 10-09-06, 10:12 PM	does becoming a were-creature actually change your alignment? Can't you just get an atonement spell cast on you if you do get changed to LG to revert you back to your original alignment?
PhaedrusXY 10-09-06, 10:17 PM	Protection from Good should give you a +2 bonus to your save, also.
Toloran 10-09-06, 10:29 PM	does becoming a were-creature actually change your alignment? Can't you just get an atonement spell cast on you if you do get changed to LG to revert you back to your original alignment? Every time you transform you have to make a DC 15 + (number of times you've transformed previously) will save or else your alignment permanently changes to that of the were-creatures. If you EVER willingly transform into the were-creature, your alignment changes permanently with no save.
Wilds 10-09-06, 10:34 PM	There is now several LG werebear drow running around on the surface? IDK, thats a tough one
Sszvein 10-09-06, 11:00 PM	Yep, that DC is really high, and we'll never make it in time to use or last fullmoon night/day to get a remove curse, so it'll be a whole month being LG (+4 will save won't make it, even if there's no moon, we're bound to get it). Not sure if I like that.
DFoster 10-09-06, 11:15 PM	+4 willsave has a little less then a fifty percent chance of making the DC 15 will save.
Sszvein 10-09-06, 11:29 PM	It's a DC 15 + the number of times you've transformed. +4 will never get through a month.
Black Kitten 10-10-06, 05:29 AM	I must say that this is a very interesting problem you have here. Not only will you become a beacon of goodness on your first failed save (and I'll bet you that won't be at the same time for everyone), you also will get a good number of hit die, extra strength and damage reduction (i.e. you will become strong enough to beat most of your party yourself). Sounds like a task that will come to your non-infected partymembers to cure you and make you fall back to your evil ways (as I believe such an alignment will permanently wash off some goodness on the character). But while you are in your werebear thingy, they will need to watch out for you more than anyone else. Very interesting indeed.
Gahread 10-10-06, 08:36 AM	Out of curiousity, what would be the board's verdict on this situation? Char gets bitten by wher-whatever. Party doesn't want alignment change. Party finds Helm of Opposite Alignment. Char changes. Poof, he's a ______! His saves suck. His alignment shifts. Party shoves the Helm on his head. Char willingly changes a few dozen times over the next month. Does the Helm enforce its alignment, or does the character flip back to the were-creature's alignment?
Man in the Funny Hat 10-11-06, 01:53 PM	So is there someway to "cure" someone's alignment and change it to something else?Yes. You simply have your character behave according to the alignment you desire. Like it or not, the DM CANNOT force players to play alignments they do not want to play. EVER. The most he can do is enforce logical consequences for being one alignment as opposed to another (as in, if you refuse to play a lawful alignment he can forbid your character from progressing as a monk). This is true regardless of how the alignment change is inflicted on your character including by curses from artifacts and relics. To be fair you should at least attempt to play alignment changes (at least for a while), but to be similarly fair the DM should not be surprised or upset if you naturally revert to playing your original alignment. That is the way alignment works. If a bunch of evil drow PC's all become were-bears the players of the drow should at least try to be CG, but eventually you'd have to accept that you're going to have a bunch of evil were-bear/drow running around the game world if they can't cure the lycanthropy.
Toloran 10-11-06, 02:38 PM	Yes. You simply have your character behave according to the alignment you desire. Like it or not, the DM CANNOT force players to play alignments they do not want to play. EVER. The most he can do is enforce logical consequences for being one alignment as opposed to another (as in, if you refuse to play a lawful alignment he can forbid your character from progressing as a monk). This is true regardless of how the alignment change is inflicted on your character including by curses from artifacts and relics. To be fair you should at least attempt to play alignment changes (at least for a while), but to be similarly fair the DM should not be surprised or upset if you naturally revert to playing your original alignment. That is the way alignment works. If a bunch of evil drow PC's all become were-bears the players of the drow should at least try to be CG, but eventually you'd have to accept that you're going to have a bunch of evil were-bear/drow running around the game world if they can't cure the lycanthropy. This is both true and not true. Realistically, A lawful good person wouldn't suddenly shift to Chaotic Evil for no reason. Technically, a DM can enforce any rule he or she wants. However, A player doesn't have to follow it because he or she can just leave (although, in a less extreme situation, the two would generally just come to some sort of agreement). In any case, unless your DM is a complete noob, he wouldn't have done that to you for no reason. Either A) He expects you to find something that will prevent you from changing alignment (helm of opposite alignment, someone who can cure you, succeeding on your will saves, etc), B) He has a reason to change your alignment (either temporarilly or permanently), or C) He didn't realize that becoming a lycantrope permanently changes your alignment when you fail your will save (which WILL happen if you transform enough since the DC increases). Next point: Keep in mind that assuming you avoid combat, you'll only transform three times (once for each night of the full moon). So thats a DC 15, 16, and 17. If you have an owl's wisdom buff (Your priestess is a cleric I presume?) then that brings your will save up to +6. As such, you have an average of a 50% chance of making it through the 3 days without your alignement changing. However, regardless of what you do, keep trying and if you don't succeed: run with it. Keep in mind that not ALL LG characters are mindless zealots (like many paladins are). If you were friends/allies before, you'll be friends/allies after the transformation. Its just that your relationship will be a bit more strained now =P Also, just because someones alignment changes, it doesn't mean they want to KEEP that alignment. They wouldn't do something against their nature (IE, killing small children) but they might (depending on their personality) accept having a helm of opposite alignment put on them (thus reverting them back to normal). Remember: An alignment is a shirt, not a straight-jacket. Out of curiousity, what would be the board's verdict on this situation? Char gets bitten by wher-whatever. Party doesn't want alignment change. Party finds Helm of Opposite Alignment. Char changes. Poof, he's a ______! His saves suck. His alignment shifts. Party shoves the Helm on his head. Char willingly changes a few dozen times over the next month. Does the Helm enforce its alignment, or does the character flip back to the were-creature's alignment? Actually, the alignment would only shift once (really). Person transforms (CE => LG), helm shifts it back (LG => CE). It doesn't matter if they fail successive will saves because the helm (as long as it is on them) would always shift it back (form how I understand it). Also, a helm doesn't enforce the new alignment: The person simply wouldn't do certain things. Example: CE person used to steal candy from babies all the time. Now that person is LG. They might still like candy, but they probably wouldn't steal it from babies anymore.
parad0cz 10-11-06, 02:52 PM	I have to disagree. MIAFH Not playing the alignment change is like the guy in a couple threads over wanting to play a smart barbarian even though he used INt as a dump stat, with an 8. Sure, he cant FORCE you to act that way, nor can he FORCE you to act with that 5 cha, or FORCE your character to attack the party just because a stupid magic thing called Dominate, or really force you to play like the frog he just polymorphed you into. You could act however you want. But he can control his world, and if you dont play within the rules, well... So ok, you dont want to be LG. People dont like to be dominated, geased, cursed or otherwise inconvienced. But to not play smacks of cheating. NOw, yes, alignment is rather huge impact on playing your character. Talk to the DM, ask how best to go about drifting back. Its not really fair that he totally destroy your character concept if he allowed it in your game, just as it would be not fair if you didnt play what is probably a temporary curse. Remember, you have GONE MAD. A magical curse has warped your fragile litte mind(thanks Cartman). Its like going evil feral from werewolfism, but you wouldnt just not play that. Talk to the DM. if this is a underhanded move to get away from an evil campagin, well then you just might want to walk.
Nephlite 10-11-06, 06:24 PM	We're playing a drow game and the party was scouting the surface in prevision of a raid by a larger force. Unfortunatly we encountered...were-bear paladins and half of the party (me, a beguiler, and the priestess) were infected. As you might know, that'll eventually turn us into *lawful good* characters, and since we're lvl 4, the cleric cannot cure anyone, and since we're not in a civilised place, there's no temple close-by to get rid of it while there's still time. And afterward, I very much doubt there'll be a 12th lvl cleric around (nope, this isn't Forgotten Realms, we'll find those everywhere then). So is there someway to "cure" someone's alignment and change it to something else? Except perhaps by becoming a lich or something? Thanks if you can help, I'd really rather not play a drizztish LG beguiler. Last option: Have the cleric change dieties. It works, but you'll need to change domains (to match new diety). And the cleric can still cure if you find a wand of CLW or its cousins.
Cifer 10-11-06, 06:50 PM	Actually, the alignment would only shift once (really). Person transforms (CE => LG), helm shifts it back (LG => CE). It doesn't matter if they fail successive will saves because the helm (as long as it is on them) would always shift it back (form how I understand it). Sadly, that's not the case. The helm works exactly once - as long as the wearer makes their save, it will go on to try changing someone, but as soon as it's been successful once, the magic fades. If you are still within one hour of the bite, you might try finding some wolfsbane (oficially belladonna aka. nightshade, which is botanically speaking complete rubbish - wolfsbane is aconite/monkshood). Finally, another solution would be the way every BBEG would solve this - ritualize! Depending on how tightly your DM handles the magic system and whether he allows ritual magic to accomplish things, you might spend the time till the next full moon getting some elves together in order to persuade Lolth to a) get a mass atonement for all the new LGs and b) cure the lycanthropy or remove the alignment component. Two or three elves (or lacking that, about 5 beings of other species) should be enough per patient.
Toloran 10-11-06, 11:07 PM	Sadly, that's not the case. The helm works exactly once - as long as the wearer makes their save, it will go on to try changing someone, but as soon as it's been successful once, the magic fades. If you are still within one hour of the bite, you might try finding some wolfsbane (oficially belladonna aka. nightshade, which is botanically speaking complete rubbish - wolfsbane is aconite/monkshood). Finally, another solution would be the way every BBEG would solve this - ritualize! Depending on how tightly your DM handles the magic system and whether he allows ritual magic to accomplish things, you might spend the time till the next full moon getting some elves together in order to persuade Lolth to a) get a mass atonement for all the new LGs and b) cure the lycanthropy or remove the alignment component. Two or three elves (or lacking that, about 5 beings of other species) should be enough per patient. Oooh, good idea. Petioning a god/goddess is always a good idea when you have a problem with no visible solution. Hopefully your DM won't just go "No."
pyropetey9 10-12-06, 09:43 AM	again, it brings up will saves, which may not help at your current level, but page 146 of Savage Species provides a save DC and modifiers for avoiding involuntary alignment change when you gain a template or monster class. DC 10 + 1/2 goal monster's HD + goal monsters Wis modifier DC Modifiers: -5 if original alignment and new alignment are one step removed (ie, LG vs NG) +5 if original alignment and new alignment are two steps removed (NG vs LN or NG vs NE) +10 if alignments are diametrically opposed (CE vs LG) good luck to you.
ArcTan 10-12-06, 12:51 PM	Yes. You simply have your character behave according to the alignment you desire. Like it or not, the DM CANNOT force players to play alignments they do not want to play. EVER. The most he can do is enforce logical consequences for being one alignment as opposed to another (as in, if you refuse to play a lawful alignment he can forbid your character from progressing as a monk). This is true regardless of how the alignment change is inflicted on your character including by curses from artifacts and relics. To be fair you should at least attempt to play alignment changes (at least for a while), but to be similarly fair the DM should not be surprised or upset if you naturally revert to playing your original alignment. That is the way alignment works. If a bunch of evil drow PC's all become were-bears the players of the drow should at least try to be CG, but eventually you'd have to accept that you're going to have a bunch of evil were-bear/drow running around the game world if they can't cure the lycanthropy. This does not apply to magical alignment shifts, which are a form of mind control or compulsion (in the broad sense). The disease *is* forcing your actions to take the form of a certain set of values. (Not just the alignment itself, I would argue, but the overall value system of the totem animal of the lycanthrope -- you become a "bearlike" LG character with a bear's sense of nobility and devotion.) Sure, over time an LG werebear can fall, but as a DM trying to enforce this concept I'd insist that it be a slow process -- you *are* being magically compelled toward this set of values, and trying to violate it constitutes a major personality shift, something where if you tried to violate it too much I'd just say you couldn't or force you to roll a Will save. (A fully infected werebear can't stab someone in cold blood any more than I would let a Human Paladin character just randomly stab someone and Fall for no reason.) Otherwise the magical alignment shift is meaningless and one of the scariest parts of lycanthropy is removed. Seriously, the basic horror-movie concept of the werewolf is that the infected Human has no choice but to go on wild, destructive rampages. If you allow the CE werewolf to simply "choose" to become NG again, all the terror leaks right out of that concept and lycanthropy just isn't as horrifying.
ArcTan 10-12-06, 12:51 PM	again, it brings up will saves, which may not help at your current level, but page 146 of Savage Species provides a save DC and modifiers for avoiding involuntary alignment change when you gain a template or monster class. DC 10 + 1/2 goal monster's HD + goal monsters Wis modifier DC Modifiers: -5 if original alignment and new alignment are one step removed (ie, LG vs NG) +5 if original alignment and new alignment are two steps removed (NG vs LN or NG vs NE) +10 if alignments are diametrically opposed (CE vs LG) good luck to you. This is unnecessary. The core rules already provide a specific rule for the Will save DC to avoid alignment change when involuntarily changing under lycanthropy (15 + number of previous transformations).
ArcTan 10-12-06, 12:53 PM	Sadly, that's not the case. The helm works exactly once - as long as the wearer makes their save, it will go on to try changing someone, but as soon as it's been successful once, the magic fades. Basically, if you did convert once to LG, you could put on a Helm of Opposite Alignment to become CE again (note that *your character* would not choose to do this, no matter how much you the player want to -- someone else would have to force it on you or trick you into putting it on), but you'd still be infected with lycanthropy, and the *next* time you failed your Will save you'd convert right back to LG (and the Helm would now be used up and useless).
Toloran 10-12-06, 12:53 PM	If your characters are aware of their condition (which the presumably are), there is another way to keep yourself from changing (and there by not having to make the roll to keep your alignment). There is a skill in the MM for people who have been afflicted with lycantrophy: Control Shape. Its like any other skill but you can use it to resist transforming (DC 25). So if you can somehow get ranks into it (leveling up or using ones you haven't spent), you MIGHT be able to make it (its worth a shot anyway).
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-12-06, 12:59 PM	Also, you can continue acting in a manner that is natural to your character until your alingment naturally shifts back.