Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyraxus 12-04-06, 02:08 AM	We're playing a Pirate campaign in a homebrew world, and my character has a life-changing religious experience and goes to train to be a cleric of the god of secrets for a culture the DM describes as "imagine the ancient Aztecs, now imagine if their gods were real and answered their prayers and sacrifices." The DM said it'd take at least a couple of game years to get into the clergy, so I rolled up a new character. Having bought the Tome of Battle a month or so ago, I'm jumping at the chance to use it. So I make a Warblade7/Swordsage2, specializing in Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon; backstory has me as a member of a cult founded by a survivor of the Shadow Tiger Horde (see ToB for details). Sounds good so far, right? The only problem is the DM seems to think that the ToB is too overpowered. for use. Which is fine, except I'm having trouble reconciling that to the fact that he let, nay, encouraged me to play a spiked chain tripper build with potions of enlarge person and levels of rogue/scarlet corsair (sneak attack dice out the wazoo in addition to the Trip machine; he also said to use Dex for trip checks since I'm finessing the chain). He's letting the party sorcerer re-pick his spells every few minutes (granted, he's new to spellcasting, so he needs help, but repicking his list every few minutes because he just thought of something?). He let our group "munchkin" take some sort of warlock/cleric hybrid from Complete Mage (which I don't own, so I don't know anything about), so he can literally disable ships from long-range one minute and then heal for a fistful of d6s the next and then do wierd things involving invisibility, flight, and more handfuls of d6s the rest of the time. Our party bard/captain has a +40-something to his charisma-related checks at lvl 8-9. Our Invisible Blade has Two-Weapon Rend despite a BAB of only 8 (BAB11+ required for the feat), and he practically built her character (she's new too; It's not bf/gf favouritism, since she's MY fiance). Yet, despite all this, a straight-out-of-the-book Warblade is broken. Let alone the WB7/SS2 I built (he hasn't even seen it yet, but he practically ruled it out when I asked him earlier today). The DM's been playing for years, but after a semester of playing I'm citing rules out of Core that he's never heard of (ex: that everyone's flat-footed until their first turn in combat, and that a rogue gets that sneak attack on them even though it's not a surprise round and they're aware of her; or that a chain-wielder gets an AoO against someone charging because they leave a threatened square before they get to him; both straight out of the PHB!!!). I don't want to be a rules lawyer or munchkin, but that's what I was called when I brought these up during the session. I told him it's fine, that he can houserule it the way he normally plays, I just wanted to be certain of which way we're ruling, but after looking it up he agreed it was Core and insisted that we use the book rules. Again, I don't want to be a munchkin, I just take my time and build characters carefully. This one, for example, took the better part of twelve hours over two days roughing out, building, rebuilding, and polishing. And then my dice love me (but I strictly follow the rules we're given for character creation: stats rolled as 4d6, reroll any 1s until you get something not a 1, and can move two points; reroll any 1s when rolling HP; seems built to give high-powered characters). For example, I rolled 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 15 for stats, and after I looked at my 18s in STR, DEX, and CON, I dumped CON from 18 to 14 to not be that overpowered. I want to be a strong character (again, as the creation rules seem to want), not better than three other party members put together. Oh, it doesn't help that I rolled well for HP, and even after dumping CON I have over 100 HP (102, actually, compared to the average of 82) at level 9, and destroyed my fiance's character in two rounds when she wanted to duel (she's the Invisible Blade, and didn't get the part about her not being a tank), and then in three when she demanded a rematch. So without considering anything other than combat prowess, she declares my character "broken" and says she's going to tell the DM that I shouldn't be allowed to play it. So this is what I'm dealing with. Without "tricking" him, without getting into an argument, and without "voting with my feet" (as I'll be moving for a semester in a week or two and won't be playing while I'm away), how can I reason with him to let me play the WB/SS for my last couple of sessions for seven or eight months? Or is the material or my character actually overpowered (I'll post full build/stats if it helps)?
Tempest Stormwind 12-04-06, 02:40 AM	Link him here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744662) It's one of many threads showing how the book isn't overpowered, just a minor paradigm shift. I chose that one since that's the DM board (the only board beyond Deities and The Planes to be so full of grognards that any change at all is slow and tiny), so it's applicable to his perspective -- and the overwhelming support present there should illustrate your point. The thing is, he just has to learn that it's okay for fighter-types to not suck. Instead of starting out strong to mediocre (depending on class), and rapidly becoming outclassed by everyone, they start out strong and remain competitive, even with the spellcasters. They don't break ahead of the spellcasters at all, except at the levels where melee is already ahead of them. Oh, that's the other thing -- MELEE. Your character won't be very good in ship-to-ship, particularly if the eldritch theurge in your party has his way with ships. If you'd rather show him that it's not overpowered, bust out an old man of the sea (pure druid) and rape everyone -- preferrably with kraken (squid) for ultimate irony. Then leave to the depths, having left the clear message that noncore material isn't needed to break the game, and return with your warblade.
Tyraxus 12-04-06, 03:45 AM	Meh, I'm not worried about combat time; our primary tactic has been to board the enemy ship, let me (chain fighter) hold off the crew while the others take the officers (anything above level two-three), and then enslave everyone left alive and loot the cargo. Not a lot of "I zap it in the side of the hull, it sinks, we win," since we're out for cold, hard cash rather than a kill count. Plus our next session (probably my last D&D game until July or August) he's already said will be a raid on a port town. I'd rather not direct the DM to a thread, because anything associated with the Wizards boards to him seems to automatically scream "munchkin!" for some obscure reason. I'd also rather not break the game since I'm friends with these guys, and I'd like to have a place in the game come fall semester. It doesn't seem to be a matter of non-Core being bad, since we're using stuff from everywhere (even Complete Mage, which came out after ToB IIRC, or at least close to the same time), but more of a problem with ToB itself. I even loaned it to him for a week earlier this semester when I bought it, since he seemed interested, I wanted to make a Warblade, and I didn't want to try to sneak anything by him, but when he gave it back he still said it was iffy in his mind. Totally acceptable, of course, since it's his world/campaign, but I'm just having a hard time understanding how a Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader are more broken than Druid20, Cleric20, a Warlock/Cleric thing (Eldritch Theurge?) that heals for a fistful of d6s as a standard action all day long, or even the Dex-based chain fighter he encouraged me to play. If I could see his viewpoint I could make a counter-argument, but as it is...?
draco1119 12-04-06, 04:49 AM	Listen to Stormwind. He knows what he's talking about. I especially liked the broken Druid idea... :plotting:
ressurrector 12-04-06, 05:25 AM	At first glance ToB looks powerful, and even in game it does at times. Then you realise that the wizard and various low level magic items are doing much more damage. One thing to note: Warblades are extremely powerful in 1v1 combat, wall of blades can stop an attack cold 50%+ of the time, and they have very high damage single strikes. They are much weaker against groups, especially balanced groups with 2+ melee characters, ranged characters, and buffers/etc...
Tyraxus 12-04-06, 05:38 AM	Like I say, I don't want to tick these guys off, since they're my friends. That being said, though, is there a level 9 Druid that can completely derail a pirate campaign in a port town? I've got about 58,000 gold to play with (he's not stingy with the gold at all, in fact it's about level wealth plus about 22,000) if that makes any difference. Something to note, all semester I've not seen a truly optimized spellcaster. The closest to it has been the Theurge, but our current caster (as I said) is new enough to not be confortable with spells yet (first game as a full caster), and the DM was the caster last game b/c another guy was learning to DM. I guess if all else fails, since it's my last game for a good long while, I can go out in style: my char can appear out of the darkness right next to the Theurge (most dangerous opponant), completely demolish him, rip the sorcerer's face off, and then make a go at the melee members of the party. I've already shown I can take my fiance's invisible blade straight up, and the bard and dread pirate I can take with hit-and-run tactics (go go white raven tactics plus shadow jaunt to somewhere anywhere nearby, like the roof, to catch my breath, adaptive style, and then leap back into combat with death from above, rinse, repeat). If I'm broke (or have good tactics/execution) then it'll work. If I'm not, well, I tried and showed them that I'm not that broke. One thing to note: Warblades are extremely powerful in 1v1 combat That's why I like it. I don't care for the area control chain guy, I'm more of the "bust up one guy, then go to the next in line" type. And I still think I could take my group, not because it's too powerful, but because it's not a well-constructed group, especially if I manage to get the drop on the Theurge. Is it bad that I'm considering turning on my party if the DM doesn't like my character? Or am I simply getting into the spirit of the evil pirate campaign (especially since I consider my warblade/swordsage as more of a ninja fighter than anything)?
Matthew77 12-04-06, 11:00 AM	I suggest asking him exactly what about the ToB seems overpowered. If you can get him to name specific manuevers or abilities, you can then point to other spells or class abilities that do the same thing or better. Shadow Jaunt = Dimension door Damaging strikes < Blasting spells Stances < Buff spells White Raven Tactics is tough to replace, its clearly one of the best manuevers, but point him at Haste or Mass Snake's Swiftness IMO, the only major change ToB makes to the game is to make fighters completely obsolete, unless you specifically need a handful of extra feats.
bitnine 12-04-06, 11:05 AM	I suggest asking him exactly what about the ToB seems overpowered.For additional fun, keep a slip of paper in your pocket stating "No, regaining maneuvers is not like a spellcaster suddenly getting back all their spells."
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-04-06, 11:08 AM	While I know your pain and have had character ideas shot down it is the DM's call as to whether or not he allows material. Even if his reason is that he doesn't want to bother with it. It is his right. Hey, it is better than the schlub who's DM banned stuff mid game for an existing character on another thread here.
Derren S. 12-04-06, 02:23 PM	ToB simply is overpowered compared to normal melee fighters. There is no point in arguing that. Compared to the power of casters they are ok, but when you have access to ToB there is no point in playing a fighter except to get into PRCs fast. Some people think that this is ok as it ups the power level of fighters to those of casters but the fact that ToB is a vast power creep remains.
RadicalTaoist 12-04-06, 05:52 PM	Not if you compare them to the difficulty level of monsters PCs are supposed to be in melee combat with. Warblades are just fine against those.
Tyraxus 12-04-06, 06:36 PM	While I know your pain and have had character ideas shot down it is the DM's call as to whether or not he allows material. Even if his reason is that he doesn't want to bother with it. True, and I'd live with it if he said "I don't want to deal with it," or "there's no martial adepts in my world," or something like that. But his reasoning is that it's probably broke, which leaves be scratching my head due to the rest of the party. So I kill quickly and efficiantly in solo combat, the Theurge, Sorceror, and Invisible Blade do too. I just sacrifice out-of-combat versatility for being better at in-combat stuff. I'm a one-trick pony, but it's a heluva trick. Of course, it's always possible that I've worked hard enough on this to actually be overpowered. WB4/SS1/WB+2/SS+1/WB+1 STR: 20 +5 / 24 +7 DEX: 18 +4 / 20 + 5 CON: 14 +2 INT: 14 +2 WIS: 16 +3 / 18 +4 CHA: 14 +2 AC: 29, FF:24, T:21 Saves: 9, 12, 9 Initiative: +10 BAB: +8/+3 Quick to Act +1 Discipline Focus: Stone Dragon Weapon Focus AC Bonus (Wis to AC) Battle Clarity Weapon Aptitude Uncanny Dodge Battle Ardor Improved Uncanny Dodge Battle Cunning Adaptive Style Power Attack Leap Attack Extra Readied Maneuver Improved Initiative Weapon Soecialization - Greatsword +3 Mithril Chain Shirt (+7 AC, +6 Dex, - ACP, 10% ASF, 30' movement) Amulet of Natural Armour +1 Ring of Protection +2 +1 Tiger Claw Greatsword (primary weapon) +1 Greatsword (in case I'm disarmed, sundered, etc) Belt of Giant Strength +4 Periapt of Wisdom +2 Gloves of Dex +2 Bolstering Voice Stance of Clarity Child of Shadow Leaping Dragon Stance Moment of Perfect Mind* Sapphire Nightmare Blade Mountain Hammer* Claw at the Moon White Raven Tactics* Wall of Blades Death from Above* Distracting Ember Fire Riposte* Cloak of Deception* Drain Vitality Shadow Jaunt* Bonecrusher* Shadow Garotte* Balance +19 Concentration +14 Jump +21 Tumble +19 Climb +12 Diplomacy +4 Hide +10 Intimidate +8 Knowledge (History) +4 Listen +7 Move Silently +8 Profession (Soldier) +8 Sense Motive +8 Spot (cc) +6 I don't think I'm overpowered, in fact the only real synergistic maneuvers I took were Leaping Dragon Stance and Death from Above (with no auto-fails on skill checks, I don't even have to roll for the DC20 jump check for the maneuver), everything else is more of a "hey, this would be cool to be able to do," but then again everything in the book seems geared towards killing single enemies VERY quickly.
Gil Gwath 12-04-06, 07:07 PM	For example, I rolled 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 15 for stats, and after I looked at my 18s in STR, DEX, and CON, I dumped CON from 18 to 14 to not be that overpowered. I read it all, but i think you fail to understand there is no way to say something is broken if anyone really believe you rolled those stat or even worse let you play them. I'm not bored enough to make the math, and again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for true D&D player roll stat like those not cheating.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-04-06, 07:18 PM	Depends on the rolling method. Some groups use things like 6d6 per stat, take the top three. It's not too unusual to end up with mid-high teens across the board under that approach.
Tyraxus 12-04-06, 07:21 PM	I'm not bored enough to make the math, and again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for true D&D player roll stat like those not cheating. 4d6, reroll all 1s until they're not 1s, and take the top three. You may not believe it, but I rolled them right here on my desk. My last character had 18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 12. Granted, not quite as powerful, but with an average roll of 4 it's not out of the realm of possibility. Also, I take exception to you calling me a cheater. It's a freakin' game played for fun, not life-or-death here; it's not worth cheating over. And the fact that you immediately lept to "cheater" after looking at the stats says more about you than it does me, as people assign their own motives and motivations to others.
d24478667 12-04-06, 08:59 PM	Hmm.. Don't break his game, just show him a character that is overpowered, out of game. You could say,"Build a ninth level character with ToB. I'll build a CoDzilla. Both are created with your method." Then, see who wins. It won't necessarily change his mind, but it will probably be really fun.
Toloran 12-04-06, 09:05 PM	I read it all, but i think you fail to understand there is no way to say something is broken if anyone really believe you rolled those stat or even worse let you play them. I'm not bored enough to make the math, and again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for true D&D player roll stat like those not cheating. I've seen one of my players, with my own dice (+ a few randomly selected) roll straight 18s. Just because it is unlikely, it doesn't mean it is impossible.
sir_dwar 12-04-06, 09:13 PM	What I liked abot TOB was its versatility feature. It's kind of fun to say to the dm, "Okay, you sundered my rapier. I grab the (insert sunderer here) and use balista throw to toss him off the cliff." It isn't broken (particularly not swordsage, medium BaB is a big handicap), its just a big boost comparred to fighter. Lets look at each disciplines advantages, shall we? Desert Wind- First Melee class to be able to blast well (Actually, Inferno Blast is unparralled as far as direct damage goes, but the 100 ft. burst limits your ability to work in a team well (rouge CAN'T sneak attack, Cleric can't heal you, and wizard, well, wizard doesn't have any problems) (The other Direct Damage ones are FAR behind even the psion!) Unfortunatley, all but 3 manuvers/stances are supernatural, and all of them are low-level. So anti-magic fields are nightmares. Also, Fire resistance is fairly common Devoted Spirit- Yay, I can heal w/o being a Paladin! In adition, you don't go down easy. But the morality thing can be a balancing factor IF the Dm plays his cards right. Diamond Mind- Neat, and the saving throw ones can be a GODSEND, but other than that, I don't see many problems. Iron Heart- Nice, but nothing game breaking. Setting Sun- Fun and Flavorful, but not broken Shadow Hand- So you can sub in for the rouge a bit. So what. Stone Dragon- Fun. However, nothing broken. Tiger Claw- See Setting Sun White Raven- Ooh! Nice at first glance, but mostly a TEAMWORK thing. And warmaster's charge? The wizard WILL kill you for that. There, that's all of them.
ressurrector 12-04-06, 10:40 PM	(Actually, Inferno Blast is unparralled as far as direct damage goes, but the 100 ft. burst limits your ability to work in a team well (rouge CAN'T sneak attack, Cleric can't heal you, and wizard, well, wizard doesn't have any problems) Just saying, Inferno Blast can be used while allies are inside the 60' burst radius. The maneuver says that only your chosen targets are harmed.
King Bulba 12-04-06, 11:41 PM	Just saying, Inferno Blast can be used while allies are inside the 60' burst radius. The maneuver says that only your chosen targets are harmed. Magic can still do better by a factor of 10, just need one feat to shape the dmg.
ressurrector 12-05-06, 12:37 AM	Magic can still do better by a factor of 10, just need one feat to shape the dmg. I know, was just making a correction
Gil Gwath 12-05-06, 08:16 AM	4d6, reroll all 1s until they're not 1s, and take the top three. You may not believe it, but I rolled them right here on my desk. My last character had 18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 12. Granted, not quite as powerful, but with an average roll of 4 it's not out of the realm of possibility. Also, I take exception to you calling me a cheater. It's a freakin' game played for fun, not life-or-death here; it's not worth cheating over. And the fact that you immediately lept to "cheater" after looking at the stats says more about you than it does me, as people assign their own motives and motivations to others. Well, i see i provoked a lot of reaction. First of all i should say that probably i have less ranks in "humor" than i thought...i supposed it was quite clear from the reference it was a light hearted reply. And to point that out i have no interest in implying you are a cheater and obviously i have no proof whatsoever. Definitely next time i make a poor attempt to joke i'll use a smile :) But just becouse all of the replyes i went through the math. Using 4d6 and take the top three the odd of getting high numbers are the following (hope i made no error...): 18: 0,016203704 or about 1,5% 17: 0,039351852 or about 3,9% 16: 0,069444444 or about 6,9% 15: 0,094135802 or about 9,4% So, just simplifing a lot, the odds of getting a set of stats that is all 15s or better are: (0,016+0,039+0,069+0,094)^6 about 1,1E-4 or about once every 10.000 rolls . And i am not just discussing your described set of stats, but a set of stat composed of all 15s or better rolls. Obviously if we try to simulate your set must narrow again the chance. If we just multiply the single probability of each roll of your described stat (18,17,17,16,15,15) we get: 0,016*0,039*0,039*0,069*0,094*0,094 about 1,5E-8 or about 15 times every billion tries. So i know this is not exactly impossible, but to have that set of stats just when creating your charachter is an extremely remote probability. And by the way, math aside, all my point was that with that incredible set of stat you could be a fighter(1) and still be overpowered. (1) pun intended: i like fighters just as they are, and i consider them a perfectly viable choice, but here everyone and his grandma believe the fighter is underpowered so i take it as the paradigm of underpoweredness (?). If you prefer read "commoner".
Cifer 12-05-06, 11:16 AM	ToB simply is overpowered compared to normal melee fighters. There is no point in arguing that. Compared to the power of casters they are ok, but when you have access to ToB there is no point in playing a fighter except to get into PRCs fast. Some people think that this is ok as it ups the power level of fighters to those of casters but the fact that ToB is a vast power creep remains. Hmm... does this mean the PHB is a vast power creep because of introducing the druid?
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-05-06, 11:22 AM	Hmm... does this mean the PHB is a vast power creep because of introducing the druid? Since the druid is core I will say no.
Comus 12-05-06, 11:50 AM	There's no power creep. They just decided to mix the high powered magic stuff with the low powered melee stuff. You end up with the ToB - moderate power, and limited enough in scope that it's hard to screw up. It's hard to make a bad character, and it's hard to make a broken one. Spells success to me.
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-05-06, 12:26 PM	There's no power creep. They just decided to mix the high powered magic stuff with the low powered melee stuff. You end up with the ToB - moderate power, and limited enough in scope that it's hard to screw up. It's hard to make a bad character, and it's hard to make a broken one. Spells success to me. I agree. It is not broken, I just don't like it.
DarknessEternal 12-05-06, 01:02 PM	Just saying, Inferno Blast can be used while allies are inside the 60' burst radius. The maneuver says that only your chosen targets are harmed. No, no it does not. It says it deals damage to all creatures in the area aside from yourself. Yes, your allies can be in there; they take 100 damage also.
doublereedkurt 12-07-06, 03:34 PM	Well, i see i provoked a lot of reaction. But just because all of the replies i went through the math. Using 4d6 and take the top three the odd of getting high numbers are the following (hope i made no error...): 18: 0,016203704 or about 1,5% 17: 0,039351852 or about 3,9% 16: 0,069444444 or about 6,9% 15: 0,094135802 or about 9,4% So, just simplifying a lot, the odds of getting a set of stats that is all 15s or better are: (0,016+0,039+0,069+0,094)^6 about 1,1E-4 or about once every 10.000 rolls . And i am not just discussing your described set of stats, but a set of stat composed of all 15s or better rolls. Obviously if we try to simulate your set must narrow again the chance. If we just multiply the single probability of each roll of your described stat (18,17,17,16,15,15) we get: 0,016*0,039*0,039*0,069*0,094*0,094 about 1,5E-8 or about 15 times every billion tries. Hi everybody. Let me just say that this is not meant in any way to put down the original poster, or to imply that this person was not already aware of this. This is just to make dice statistics more clear, since there is often a great deal of confusion. The initial analysis asking "what are the odds of getting 15 or higher?" and then multiplying that probability out for six dice rolls is an excellent way of getting a rough idea of the odds. For discussing the odds of getting one exact roll however things are a bit more complicated. The problem is that a 3 is just as rare as an 18, but no one would think to consider a 3 to be cheating. Put another way, if someone rolled all average stats of 14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 12 that would be taken at face value. Even though the odds of getting that exact set of rolls is very small. Put a third way, we want to look at the odds of rolling a set of stats that are at a certain level of goodness. The probability of interest is the chance of rolling stats as good or better than a given set. So, looking at 18 17 17 16 15 15, the following multiplications should be made: 15 or better (21.7%) x 15 or better (21.7%) x 16 or better (12.3%) x 17 or better (5.4%) x 17 or better (5.4%) x 18 (1.5%) = 0.00000025333976178 or 2.5 out of 1 million rolls under a standard scheme (assuming original poster is correct on odds of top 3 out of 4 D6's) To take into account the throwing away of 1's, it is necessary to re-do the calculations. Essentially, we are now taking the highest 3 out of 4 D5's and then adding 3. This is a hairy calculation. The probability of getting the original poster's rolls will definitely go up though.
bitnine 12-07-06, 04:04 PM	So, looking at 18 17 17 16 15 15, the following multiplications should be made:Check out what happens when you use this method but substitute the array 18 3+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 3 or better (100%) x 3 or better (100%) x 3 or better (100%) x 3 or better (100%) x 3 or better (100%) x 18 (chance of rolling an 18) = chance of rolling an 18. Which I think we can fairly intuitively see to be inaccurate. Rolling more dice should mean I have a better chance of getting an 18 in the set; the above discounts that one of the 3 or betters might be an 18, putting a whole lot of pressure on that last roll. Instead, using 1d5+1 roll 4 keep 3, compute: (Chance of an 18 across 6 rolls) x (Chance of a 17 or greater across 5 rolls) x (Chance of a 17 or greater across 4 rolls) x (Chance of a 16 or greater across 3 rolls) x ... and so on and so forth. Now, that will miss cases where you toss out sets for having a total ability modifier less than +1, but given the method, that's not much impact. [Addendum: The chance for at least one 18 in a set (4d6 drop 1 six times) is 1-(1-p)^n, which is 1-(1-(21/1296))^6. However, shifting that to 4d6 drop 1, reroll 1s effectively makes it 1-(1-(17/625))^6. Quite a shift there! /Addendum]
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-07-06, 10:12 PM	The only problem is the DM seems to think that the ToB is too overpowered. for use. Which is fine, except I'm having trouble reconciling that to the fact that he let, nay, encouraged me to play a spiked chain tripper build with potions of enlarge person and levels of rogue/scarlet corsair Sounds like your DM wants you top play the character that he would rather be playing. The main warning sign of this is when the DM starts adjudicating role-playing "your character wouldn't do that".